Owd Codger

Slightly off topic, but found a "jukebox" ( is there such a thing these days))?), in a bar in Scarborough last week. Offered a " Northern Soul" selection, didn't expect a surprise, but delighted to find it included Eddie & Ernie, Sidra's Theme, Invitations, Lainie Hill,Kenny Lynch, Precisions ( Why Girl), amongst others...5 for £1. Really p***ed my mates off.

Always had time for this tune. Good group and Thom Bell magic

I think early days they had the band on one track...singer on the other. But they may not have retained these after the mixing and cutting. At some stage, the various tracks were retained, and increased technology meant that the various elements of the band could be separated onto different channels...as were vocals, lead backup etc

Things like Hitch Hike, Pride and joy are on Martha and Vandellas lp Dance Party....Marvin had these out in 63 same band tracks, so they must have been doing it in 63. I might have a dig and see if I can spot first use of a previous band track.

Regarding the above, it's usually a good idea to look at the date of a release ....say mid 1965....and think it terms of much of the recording going back several months, even say 1964, as the process of recording a 45, with band track, vocals, strings etc spread over several months. Often the singers were on tour and producers worked on the tracks for months and had to do vocals when they returned to Detroit..briefly. " I'll keep holding on ".....Hunter / Stevenson actually rushed to New York to get the vocals done ....they couldn't wait for such a normal process.

Paul Nixon. He was given extensive access to Motown's vaults and tape library. You'll see his name on many UK CDs. I think perhaps around 1963 they started using backing tracks and adding vocals ....the improvement in recording equipment allowed them to do this. Their main techie....Mike Mclean ...gave Motown a real improvement, moving over the years to 2, 4, 8, track etc. Re what makes an instrumental. " Festival Time" is a backing track with added sweetening....overdubs and strings of course. So a band track is just that, but as with the Mirwood things, do they become instrumentals with added overdubs and strings? Does a track have to be completely distanced to any vocal...who knows.

Yes If there was a plan to do so, probably overdubs/strings etc would be added. Earl van Dyke's "That Motown Sound" lp was the original backing track with EVD adding organ overdubs on top. Likewise, his " I can't help myself" I assume the original poster was hoping to hear the original track as opposed to a fresh arrangement. I very doubt that a fresh instrumental exists.

I asked a major Motown CD compiler if there is a backing track for ALL vocal in the Motown vaults. He replied; Absolutely if the 2-3-4-8 or 16 track tape is in the vaults which I would say covers 99.9 per cent of Motown recordings then there is a backing track

here are the credit details courtesy of DFTMC Baby A Go-Go (Richard Jacques-Ronald Miller) published Stein & Van Stock alt title: Baby Don't Leave Me Barbara McNair; recorded Hitsville, completed 26-May-66 ; produced by Brian Holland, Lamont Dozier 03-Jun-02; CD (M): Motown 544 619 2 A Cellarful Of Motown! [UK] details of alternate lyrics...again from DFTMC Countin' On You, Babe (Richard Jacques-Ronald Miller) Barbara McNair; recorded L.A. (?), completed by 08-Mar-66 ; produced by Brian Holland, Lamont Dozier 26-Jan-04; CD (S): Motown 017 554 2 Barbara McNair - The Ultimate Motown Collection [UK]

Mal C We are talking about Barbara McNair. Are you getting mixed up with another recording By Brenda Holloway

Same track..but not sure it exists without vocals as a released item

There is no version that I know of.

Just come across this thread. I raised this on another forum years ago, got no response, so I thought I'd imagined it! I had to laugh when in the first show, full of "genuine" tunes from about 1968 played in the club ( or so the show portrayed) , they featured a Four Tops track , possibly Clip My Wings, that didn't surface until about 2005. Talk about Up Front.

Just heard Four Tops/ Supremes "Knock on my door" on TV show Dinner Date ( wife's choice...I'm waiting for Test Match highlights).

The same tape has "count the times" c/u as "Sims twins"????

Probably a 'tape swapper' cover...not a DJ thing. Some tape swappers were keen on including the odd cover up, which amused and annoyed me in equal measure.

Thanks...yes I'm certain that it is Timi Yuro

Can anybody please help me to identify a track I have on an old tape, c/u as Cookie Jackson. It's actually That's Right, walk on by....but I can only find a cover version by Kiki Dee. Early 60s female. ...written by Clyde Otis, Joy Byers thank you

Just dug out my Fantastic Four CD, which is a reissue of their album released on Soul after joining Motown. This album contains Ric Tic masters, and I thought I'd check out the liner notes. Interestingly, all the groups singles on Ric Tic are mentioned. Unfortunately, the text is in Japanese, so there may well be some interesting info, but alas I can't read it.

That is correct. TMG release due to UK demand. But in the USA, after buy out, there was no real demand , so Motown didn't release anything on him from his Ric Tic masters. JJ Barnes tells the story that Eddie Holland told him he was too similar to Marvin Gaye....the likeness on his Ric Tic 45s is uncanny on some of them. Motown did record things on him at Hitsville, but again they never issued these tracks. CFOM in the UK features some of them.

There are reports that Ed Wingate wanted to get out of the music business, and he actually approached Berry Gordy with an offer to sell GW. Motown wanted the studio, as by 1966 they were running at maximum capacity. So it was a good business move to buy GW. It solved many problems. I personally don't think that Gordy was worried by " competition" on a grand scale. In 1966, as we know, dozens of Detroit labels were issuing records. Yes GW/ Ric Tic was the major Detroit competition and locally, were getting attention. But Nationally and in crossover pop terms, not much of a worry to Motown. Producers might have been annoyed that some musicians were MIA...recording elsewhere....but not that big a problem. It made a few good lines in the SITSOM movie....rather like old footballers/Cricketers telling stories at Sportsman' s dinners. Of course, it's only my opinion, but I think the pressing need to stop GW is a myth. By 1966, The Marvelettes alone had more "hit "records than the entire GW set up. Mr Godin pushed this story in B& S. That probably gave the story more credence than anything else. But as they say, if the myth becomes the story....print the myth. BTW I love many of the GW/ RT tracks as much as anybody on this forum so I am not in any way anti GW.

Regarding Motown's " Cavalier " approach to these GW masters, this was at a time when Motown were discarding things of quality like " Suspicion "," Forever in my heart" , " Reconsider ", " it's too late for you and me".. " Love starved heart" ..the kind of unreleased tracks that ignited the NS scene years ago. So it can be seen that these GW items were not a priority...hence their shoddy treatment

It would suggest that only the tracks that have been PREVIOUSLY issued on comps, 45s etc will used again...unless UMG have proof of ownership...eg Harlem, I have faith in you etc and other Ric Tic items were on the Soul Master expanded CD. Therefore it's most unlikely to get tracks never issued by Motown before. I can only think of The Reflections, on GW, being used by Motown ( TMG) . So, this supports my theory that Motown saw potential value in old "hits" and took the masters. Others on GW were ...well, who knows..still rolling down Davison. Look at it this way..it seems that.in 1966 , Motown didn't really want to take these masters if they didn't have value. They MAY have taken them all, but the above answer suggests that some were lost, misplaced ...and paperwork proving legal ownership was badly handled. Whilst these brilliant records had Clubs up and down the UK drooling in 1972, most of the GW tracks were of no use to Motown. The artists above...yes, some sales potential. But you couldn't imagine an LP on Gordy/ Motown of " A collection of16 Big GW flops" being issued. ( taking commercially here). So , unless UMG are prepared to put a lot of effort into it, then no future Official comps will appear. Years ago, such a comp would have been the holy grail. If it was possible, some reissue company would done it. The fact that nobody has tells you that it can't be done...it would prove virtually impossible to prove ownership.

Of course..his first record on Desert Island Discs was Dobie Gray!

I contacted a compiler of many Motown CDs , so his contacts, knowledge and access to the vaults and it's contents should be well regardrd I would think Here is his reply As far as I can gather all aspects of the sale of RT/GW are very very woolly - a number but by no means all of the catalogue tapes were passed over but the paperwork was so tenuous that U believe discovering what Universal owns and doesn't own is next door to impossible - and nowadays they are so edgy regarding litigation that this has become a minefield for them. Which is why you will see tracks that have already been released by Motown in the past being available and not really ever seen any unreleased. It is just impossible to work out legally who owns what - even possesion of the tapes doesn't signify ownership as far as I can see. If we wind the clock back to the original UK - Ric Tic LP - I am almost positive that some of those tracks were 'needle drops' and in the case of Mark III Trio– G'Wan (Go On) I know that to be true. It almost explains then why some bootleggers have got away with releasing material on 'independent' labels and never been proscecuted - as it's too diffciult to prove ownership.