Owd Codger

It would suggest that only the tracks that have been PREVIOUSLY issued on comps, 45s etc will used again...unless UMG have proof of ownership...eg Harlem, I have faith in you etc and other Ric Tic items were on the Soul Master expanded CD. Therefore it's most unlikely to get tracks never issued by Motown before. I can only think of The Reflections, on GW, being used by Motown ( TMG) . So, this supports my theory that Motown saw potential value in old "hits" and took the masters. Others on GW were ...well, who knows..still rolling down Davison. Look at it this way..it seems that.in 1966 , Motown didn't really want to take these masters if they didn't have value. They MAY have taken them all, but the above answer suggests that some were lost, misplaced ...and paperwork proving legal ownership was badly handled. Whilst these brilliant records had Clubs up and down the UK drooling in 1972, most of the GW tracks were of no use to Motown. The artists above...yes, some sales potential. But you couldn't imagine an LP on Gordy/ Motown of " A collection of16 Big GW flops" being issued. ( taking commercially here). So , unless UMG are prepared to put a lot of effort into it, then no future Official comps will appear. Years ago, such a comp would have been the holy grail. If it was possible, some reissue company would done it. The fact that nobody has tells you that it can't be done...it would prove virtually impossible to prove ownership.

Of course..his first record on Desert Island Discs was Dobie Gray!

I contacted a compiler of many Motown CDs , so his contacts, knowledge and access to the vaults and it's contents should be well regardrd I would think Here is his reply As far as I can gather all aspects of the sale of RT/GW are very very woolly - a number but by no means all of the catalogue tapes were passed over but the paperwork was so tenuous that U believe discovering what Universal owns and doesn't own is next door to impossible - and nowadays they are so edgy regarding litigation that this has become a minefield for them. Which is why you will see tracks that have already been released by Motown in the past being available and not really ever seen any unreleased. It is just impossible to work out legally who owns what - even possesion of the tapes doesn't signify ownership as far as I can see. If we wind the clock back to the original UK - Ric Tic LP - I am almost positive that some of those tracks were 'needle drops' and in the case of Mark III Trio– G'Wan (Go On) I know that to be true. It almost explains then why some bootleggers have got away with releasing material on 'independent' labels and never been proscecuted - as it's too diffciult to prove ownership.

Surprised there was no sign for " Wigan Pier"

Went to local theatre last night.. "Around the world in 80 days". Interval background music... Marvelettes Beechwood 45789 Temptations...I gotta find was to get you back ( Denis Edwards version) Epitome of Sound...You don't love me

In an attempt to locate the story of Dave Godin and Barney Ales ( which for the life of me I can't locate), I discovered I was in error regarding the closing of TMAS magazine. But in reading about this period, it clarified things that I had long ago forgotten. TMAS published the magazine until January 1966. Then , abruptly, Dave Godin explained to readers that the TMAS would fold, to be replaced by non Motown centric Rhythm & Soul USA ( 4 copies). Regarding the tour, after 2 years of promoting Mary Wells & Motown, he contacted Motown regarding his plan to form a Motown fan club. This led to Gordy sending him an invitation to Detroit to meet the Motown staff and artists , with a view to gain knowledge of the UK scene. Reading these early articles, and the over enthusiastic promotion of Motown in the magazine, it is easy to see how Gordy gained a false impression about Motown's UK popularity . However, a very close relationship was formed, and TMAS were given full support and crucially financial backing ( EMI also helped funding) However, it seems an ever confident Gordy was hell bent on the 65 tour ( Mary Wells & Supremes had big UK hits late 1964) and was keen to promote the label launch. It seems that the reality hit home to Godin, who saw that the stories of UK popularity had been over egged, and the exhausting tour details brought some reality to the situation. Godin now backtracked, and tried to advise Gordy that it was too early for such a big undertaking. Gordy ignored him, his support and promotion seemingly not needed as much as before. However, Godin was now in a situation ,where against his better judgement, he had to be seen to be as supportive as before....the TMAS bears this out. Relations were strained over a period in time, and any warnings from Godin were ignored. The tour was the expected financial disaster . TMAS funding was withdrawn by Detroit and EMI and Godin was now virtually broke , as he told a friend he was up to his balls in debt! So, it seems his relationship was soured by the ignoring of his advice, blame for the early over optimistic approach and the removal of his funding. Now where did I read the Barney Ales story?

I think volume 1 is available for £12

one used copy on Amazon....£160.00

nicked?? Who would do such a thing?

Hello I could be confusing UMG offices being New York, where members of Motown Treasures forum have met HW I think. It would make sense that the tapes were housed outside Manhattan. Did HW give any indication of the storage of GW tapes. Presumably he is aware of UK interest? I have no knowledge of the policies of record companies releasing material. The recent " All turned on" CD prompts questions. Is it cheaper to re-issue tracks already released years ago....perhaps like a TV show repeat.....thus " All turned on" is on there but not " Makin' up time" for examplr. All a mystery to me.

Motown's tape library, owned and managed by UMG is housed in New York. If the Ric Tic/ Golden World masters are still at Motown ( i.e. things like Barbara Mercer, Adorables, Pat Lewis, Tamiko Jones, Debonaired etc, ) then presumably they are housed in racks at UMG. Manager Harry Weinger would probably know the position.

no problem. I'm no expert on Recording Contracts, but I'm fairly certain that for a Record Company to issue a recording, they must have contracts in place. This is the reason given to Motown Collectors as to why sometimes " in demand" items are not issued. I think the majority of Golden World artists were not " signed" by Motown....They had a surplus of artists so why take artists with no name value on board? Edwin ..yes...several hits...a good investment. San Remo....the Detroit Symphony Orchestra playets....who were already recording at Motown JJ Barnes.....the legend of Motown or Marvin Gaye needing to supress him?? Fantastic Four....popular group in Detroit with some chart clout. But Motown, whilst probably acquiring the Ric Tic/ G W catalogue, saw no commercial gain in the remainder of the artists or tracks. If Motown had shown an interest in releasing old GW tracks, I would have thought Compilations of The Relections hits would have been favourite. The fact that UK Tamla Motown did release tracks by The Reflections, Laura Lee, Al Kent, Mark 111 trio ( Wingate 45) suggests that they did have the masters. As Robb says, unreleased stuff ( Don Davis) was probably not wanted by Motown...if indeed they knew of their existence. It always struck me that the Ric Tic relics LP was a mishmash. EMI probably didn't know what they were sitting on, cashing in but a bit of a poor attempt...who advise them regarding GW/ Ric Tic catalogue.?

Please forgive my memory if I have this wrong. Just checked Soulful kinda music site. Flaming Ember last record on Ric Tic 68 Straight to Hot Wax 69 No Motown recordings

I don't recall Flaming Ember on Rare Earth but I could be wrong. A few Edwin Starr tracks were on Soul Master LP. After that..100% Motown. San Remo had Ric Tic tracks issued on LP. Fantastic Four LP was 100% Ric Tic stuff. Nothing issued at all on JJ Barnes

After the 66 buy out, I think that it was only the Fantastic Four. Flaming Ember never joined Motown. Staffers Richard Morris, Al Kent did join Motown. Of course Al Kent had 45s on Blue "new" Ric Tic ( post 66 buyout). Freddie Gorman returned to Motown and joined The Originald. J.J. Barnes was taken on in the 66 buy out but Motown never issued anything he recorded for them.

According to SDF ( Golden World Story) Motown acquired Myto

Lots of papers/memorabilia were indeed left behind in the Woodward Donovan building when Motown left. Many stories of crates of stuff just thrown away. Some people picked up things that lucky Motown collectors eventually got their hands on

Hello Robb Would that suggest that Motown only wanted tracks associated to Artists whose contracts they acquired, and they were not interested in any previously unissued tracks?

I guess that 's why forums were invented

Hi Rick, It could be that Motown only have the masters of the Artists who contracts were acquired . Whilst it would be nice to get them, it will probably not happen. You'd have thought that Ace/Kent, or similar, would have jumped on this.

Actually, the opposite is true. Golden World studio became increasingly important to Motown as Studio B. This studio was used for vocals, both lead and backing vocals, sweetening such as Strings and horns, overdubs. etc. With increased recording technology, it meant that producers could improve their productions. Golden World's Detroit studio was only in operation for about 18 months before Motown acquired it. Conversion from 3 track to 8 track was required. So, many well loved "Detroit" Golden World classics were actually recorded in New York. The producers, many being of a superstitious nature, continued to record rhythm tracks at Studio A ( Hitsville) were many hits were cut.

I think it was Love , which turned into hate..... Can I say we all owe Mr Godin a tremendous thanks for his role in the Motown story here in the UK (Affected my life from 1967). No Godin, No Tamla Motown....no NS scene as we know it. My theory ( based on a piece I read in one of the many Motown books) was that Godin was blamed for the failure , both commercially and financially , of the 1965 tour . I've read that Godin received the Hairdryer treatment from Barney Ales...his crime, over enthusiasm and over projecting Motown's UK standing in 1964-65. The 65 tour was a disaster in terms of the lack of audiences in theatres up and down Britain. II think it is a reasonable assumption that Ales/ Motown basically fired Godin, and told him his role in the UK operation was no longer required. After all Dave Godin had done for Motown, it would not be surprising if he felt somewhat miffed. Significantly, the Tamla Motown Appreciation Society magazine abruptly disappeared almost immediately after the Tour in 1965. He ran a general soul magazine ...lasted about 3 copies. I believe Mr Godin's view was that , after promoting and launching Motown, the new TM label now meant that his role was now complete and it was his role to support other artists away from Motown Very Possible, but his regular digs at Motown in B&S always smacked of bitterness to me. I particularly liked the Petula Clark complaint.

Perhaps my Dave Godin story is relevant here. When the Ric Tic popularity was at it's peak in the UK ( Circa 1972 ?), Mr Godin wrote a very critical piece in B&S , stating that is was disgusting that Motown was sitting on Ric Tic masters and behaving like a broody hen, whose Chick were never going to hatch ( or something along those lines). i.e. They should be releasing these tracks for UK collectors. When , eventually, UK Tamla Motown did catch up and release J.J. Barnes, San Remo , Laura Lee on TMGs, Godin then complained , again through his column, that it was disgusting that Tamla Motown were issuing these Ric Tic tracks ....and fraudulently passing them off as there own. I wrote a letter to B&S pointing out Godin's hypocracy on this subject, but they didn't respond or print my letter. Mr Godin was critical of Motown on many occasions in his columns. I have a view on that, but not sure it can be substantiated .

As I understand it, Motown acquired the Golden World studios in late 1966. Whilst the myth about competition exists, I suspect that the extra studio facilities that , by 1966, Motown needed, was the primary reason for the buy out......moonlighting musicians perhaps an annoying thing that Gordy wanted ending also contributed. They took the studio on Davison, and the Artists, but took an option on selected Artists...i.e Edwin Starr, J.J. Barnes, , San Remo... but didn't take others. Motown had the masters of Ric Tic/Golden World, but I think only Edwin Starr and San Remo tracks were then released by Motown. So, the reason that no OFFICIAL CD exists of Ric Tic is that Motown has never seen fit to do it. ( the worship of Ric Tic would not have applied to USA collectors in 1966.) Of course EMI UK Tamla Motown issued Ric Tic relics vinyl LP in the early 70s, to cash in on the popularity referred to above. Interestingly, Motown never took ownership of the titles to Golden World/Ric Tic. Apparently Gordy had an non-competition agreement with Ed Wingate meaning that Ed would not open a label registered/ operating in Detroit. As a result, ED, or Joan Bratton registered Ric Tic in an adjoining state, to get around this agreement. These releases are on the Blue Ric Tic. Presumably, the ending of this BLUE label led to Motown having an option, as Fantastic Four , Al Kent etc joined Motown. That's as I understand it....quite happy for any correction.

I was once shopping in a discount store/Garden centre type place. Over the speakers, an old recording of Mr. Searling's CFOS show was playing. I was shocked to hear Richard giving out details of a Soul night that I was running in a local pub, name checking me....this event was about 6 months old. I just hope nobody, upon hearing this recording, turned up expecting a Soul night.