pow wow mik

You've over-extrapolated somewhat. All I was saying is that most clubs dont play pervis lee and lifeline /pow wow does, or has at least once. All it means is that lifeline /pow wow is the kind of place where you might hear that or something like it, newer things that haven't reached wider success or failure yet. doesnt mean its better or worse than other clubs, depends on your taste I suppose. It isnt true that the clientelle are more discerning cos they dance to pervis lee, but they must be discerning, in one respect at least, because they go to a club that trys different things and styles, like pervis lee. More discerning than a warm blanket of familiar classics, is the comparison I was actually making. really, it'd be unlikely that they got that far in life and then just danced to whatever the djs played, that's more a phenomenon at student nights I'd have thought. but really, just banter with phil

Must admit, I just listened to it and it sounded pretty good. I got it around 05/06 I guess, when I had killer r&b newies coming out my ears, things like this didnt cut it at the time

I dont think it's that rare, look at all the copies on youtube. Probably one of those 45s where all the copies had got to europe by the 90s. I remember the mistake now - funny one too : one of the backing vocal guys gives it a solo 'yeeeess' in the wrong place. Once you hear it you cant enjoy the tune cos you just wait for it

that doesn't make sense, he wouldn't get 10 bags for proving he had one, he'd have to sell it, in which case, he'd have to have it no?

Aye, but lifeline / pow wow is probably one of the only dos in the uk where it would 'ram the floor', as the clientelle are knowledgable and discerning, it'd clear the floor at most of the other 60 dos that are on every saturday... so does that mean that at local oldies nights people are really discerning but at lifeline they just get pissed and dance to owt, it that, really, what you're saying?! if pervis lee is filler dj stuff that's cool to dance to, but will never be played at anyone's wedding, then good. This is club music, for a club scene, you want every tune an all time singalong classic then maybe you're ready for the oldies scene ;-) And being 'off my tits' does not mean not knowing what you're doing -only knobheads get like that. I've never once heard a tune when out of my face, like it and written it down, and not liked it just as much sober. it's called being cool, it's an enhanced part of the brain that'll stop me from ever singing 'hi ho silver lining' with a group of lads or anything, when I've had a few ]

I thought it was great, if lou rawls had done it, around 68, it would have sounded like this. I'd consider playing it at a mod do, as it'd go well with my 'in crowd' cover-up

Good dancer and lovely, that girl, but it she ok? always throws up in suggested videos on youtube, videos of her dancing in weird places, on a pier, on a mountain, in a fishmongers... I dont get it, is it all a bit forrest gump.

What a strange theory. Most people - me included- complain that it's a struggle to get folks to dance to anything but biggies and classics, now you're suggesting that people will dance to anything. Which is it!? I think the former is the scene that most djs would recognise. and you're being a bit condescending to the punters on the scene. Cant speak for anyone else, but I once spent 5 years completely off my tits and never danced to a track that I didn't love. Pervis lee is nice track, I like it and I've heard thousands of songs, not just what djs play when I'm at dos. .]

I've had it and sold it in the 00s, thought it was crap after a few listens. It's got a pretty bad mistake in it too if I remember right. think I got 80 for it, by the way.

I'd say that the Charmaines IS 'r&b stuff' !]

Yes, possibly ...but i'm not known to be subjective or overly positive! Only reason I mentioned it was because it really is relevent to this thread, and as it refers to a dj, style of music, and room that isn't my main bag, so I'm talking strictly as a punter and dancer. I've never earned a bean out of any of this , or kissed an ass to get a dj spot and the health of the scene and quality of the music is all I care about. ... it's possible that as i dont go out much at the moment, maybe I'm overly enthusiastic when I do..or maybe someone spiked my drink ;-)...but the fact is: I know great music when I hear it. I've not been going to nighters for a while of course, so a lot if tunes will be fresh to me that wont be to allnighter regulars I suppose...but I can still comment on the quality and variety of music at a do, the sound quality, the flow of a dj set - these things can be objectively judged more or less. also, my point is a wider one than just about James or lifeline; the point is, at a major uk soul do, I was dancing to oldie style gene toones one minute, frank hutson the next. I dont see a gulf between the two, and there isnt one. They're both great soulful dance music and I feel privileged to dance to both on the same night, something that just wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. it doesnt feel watered down or polluted, it feels more sophisticated and deeper. To me anyway. Its how the european scene started, so must make some sense. I do appreciate Pete's point, that many are northern soul fans but not necesarily soul fans, I just think that being so attached to a particular sub-style of such a rich range of music is a bit weird. lifeline's nowt to do with me, it dont need me to hype it up and I wouldnt, you can take my opinion to be an honest one. ]

Perfectly timed to prove Matt's point : james pogson's set at lifeline last night - mostly quite different to the traditional northern sound yet packed with soul and hard to sit still to, just an amazing set. as good as any set in any style in my opinion, quality soul music. if your ears and feet aren't accepting slight changes in mood, rhythm or tempo, I think youre missing out - it would make me go to a northern do to hear it. and of course, that's just one set amongst a night of great classic era soul of all styles. The variety is the beauty of it. We really have never had it so good!

Good point. Economist call them 'positional goods' I think - items where part of their desirability is the fact that others dont have them. It's intriguing to wonder whether some records would have been bigger if they'd been rarer, or ignored if they'd been more common. one thing's for sure : none of us will be as objective as we'd like to be. Some dont appear to even try - their 'taste' starting around the £300 mark! another factor with vinyl releases, is that they're only really going to sell to djs, and there isn't really any club nights any more where residents can get behind records based purely on the music - djing s just a network of guesting now, with the pressure to show off that comes with it.in some quarters, you get the impression that there might be someone stood behind the dj with a calculator, making sure that the dj's 'good enough'. One thing about the mod / r&b scene that was refreshing - rarity and value wasn't quite fetishised to such an extent. regarding Ady's question - I think it's probably right that, except for nostalgic reasons, straight-up 60s northern, with that sort of major-key uplifting (camp?) sound, is to some extent unfashionable, especially with generations who grew up into r&b, dance, funk or hip hop. ]

It's something that's impossible to disagree with though, that's what I'm saying. from Matt's subjective point of view, it's never been better music-wise, I suppose cos he likes the style or mixture of stuff played now. I'd agree with that too.. You may not share that view, but you cant say he's wrong. so he's never had it so good, that's a fact. if you do disagree, and think that the 70s discoveries were the best, then you've still got them, nights to hear them, plus anything discovered since, so as a matter of fact... You've never had it so good either. I should have been a lawyer, just didnt fancy sucking satan off]

love your attitude. I think every night should be scrutinised and criticised until it stops or improves, then we might actually end up with a few great nights. what do you think's wrong with lifeline / pow wow at bidds? Now I'm not wrapped up in djing or promoting, I think I'm pretty objective about things and I think it's a great night / venue where djs seem pretty free to play what they like; every time I've gone into lifeline it's been jumping. Be honest, I only play a small part in it. I'm a punter there really; i only get out once a month these days and I'd love it to get even bigger and better at that venue, i think it's great

This is weirdly defensive. Who's trying to unify northern soul with other types of soul? Do you mean on soul source or at nights? if people are doing this on here, then that's their right; it's a soul music site and people can like any combination of soul and northern soul that they want to... and if they're doing it in clubs, well they can do what they want can't they? And after all, there's quite a lot going on for those who like their undiluted northern anthems isnt there? Unless I'm missing something, you're winning aren't you, what you moaning about? if there are people, and I'm one of them, who like to hear a northern classic and a funky newie at the same night, why do you care? Northern soul only has meaning to those who are into it. I dont know if a record is northern soul or another type of soul, and I dont care.]

I dont understand why Matt's post has caused so much outrage, although I think there's a few daily mail-style professionally outraged types around just looking for things to be outraged about. he didnt say that, generally, things were better than ever, that YOU were happier than ever, or that this year's discoveries are better than 1973's, or 1982's, or whatever...that would be absurd, and he's a sensible lad. logically, so therefore in any way that matters, he's absolutely correct : musically speaking, we can't possibly have had it so good. if one more great tune is danced to than last year, then in one respect at least, this year is better. We can listen / dance to everything that they had in the 70s (and we do), plus everything discovered since...I'm afraid that is irrefutable . If traditional style northern anthems are your bag...great: loads of nights for you playing that stuff. You like all types of soul mixed together? You got that too. You like just midtempo crossover from 1969-1973, I'm in no kind of doubt that there's just that type of night for you...if not I'm sure you'll be putting one on. so there's only more music, more choice...if you wanted to you could do the best set ever off youtube rips while partying in a hot tub....you cannot argue with the fact that we've never had it so good. apart from the logical truth of the issue, it could be fair for someone...like Matt, or me...to say that it really never has been better. This is a site for soul people, not just northern soul people, and some of us soul people just do not see the pinnacle of soul music as high energy 70s style northern soul anthems, and it's our right to do so, or do not so... In fact, some of us find some of them a bit poppy sounding. I do.I think quite a lot of them are shit. if we were starting again in 1970, and I stumbled accross a warehouse of soul records, I really would leave a lot of what are now regarded as northern classics, and take stuff like that crazy boco record, I honestly would. You cant say my taste is worse because of this fact, like some bullying mob-rule. the younger people on the various strands of the soul scene have different taste, they would make different classics to the northern scene's, they might not care where funky edged soul stops and funk starts, or where r&b stops and soul starts... i'm one of them and i dont. I hear soul in jimmy ricks and jimmy bo horne and i'll decide for myself. And i'm happy that, unlike in 1973 or whatever, i can go out and hear either, or ideally, both on the same night. Not even gonna plug the pow wow club tnat's on tomorrow night at bidds in stoke, rocking exactly this ethos, that's how righteous i am ;-)s

Back in the 70s the music was being used to base a culture around. back in the 70s, you didnt have itunes, youtube, cds etc etc. dont want to be misconstrued here. I dont think ovo is an issue, any do worth going to has good djs on already. my point is that there is demand for 3 different bootleg releases of one record, demand enough for the original for sellers to ask ridiculous prices, demand, I would expect, for the same record to achieve 500+ on a manship auction.... if there is all this demand, all this interest, then where is it from? like everything else, exciting grass roots culture gets hijacked by the rich and boring. it becomes an armchair activity for the comfortable. When I first heard 'lets start a romance' (damien hewitt, 2003), it felt like the treasure at the end of a long quest, now there's 20 crappy boots sat unsold on ebay. Any money got to little joe hinton yet? Might as well have gone and shat on his bed. ]

I dont want to start a whole ovo debate again, as the thread was as much about bandwagon jumpers overspending on originals as much as it was about bandwagon jumpers buying boots... but mark forrest was able to offer an interesting insight on the impact of re-issues a while back on here, as he was able to watch the whole tradjectory of r&b in germany; and it was something like this: People who love r&b buy r&b records and started r&b clubs, which became popular and trendy. a flood of boots abd re-issues come out. because r&b is trendy, a whole host of nights crop up, playing re-issues. this divides the audience and over-familiarises the style of music. Interest in the original nights deceases, as they lose their u.s.p. all lesser nights give up as they weren't ever very committed, or good. scene dead. so there you go. I go to king bee every month, but in the end, its 100 people in a pub in sheffield, what else is there?.

I wasn't saying that it's killed the r&b scene - it's impossible to say how better things might be if other things hadnt happened (although I can say that bootlegging has certainly killed certain tracks) or that it's ruined anyone's life. it's just crap, pure and simple. I have no other point to make than that. The whole re-issue vinyl market is up there with fake perfume market stalls, stone cladding and bootleg films done on camcorders. just crap, cheap, pointless, exploitative product and as a wider culture - that is what we will be famous for - draining the world's resources to produce superfluous shite. I cant think of a better example of it than reproducing a obsolete petrochemical product in an era when we've managed to store music in the ether. I just dont get why people do it; producing, selling and buying - every stage of it is a crappy half arsed imitation of another thing; not exactly something to be proud of. and after a few years of giving the benefit of doubt I feel that I can say with confidence that it's done about as much for music as mock tudor houses did for 16th century history. I dont care if it affects the value of originals, I'm not a stockbroker. I just get the impression that the two existing markets are now - culture vultures flogging it to death with re-issues (like someone said, somebody must be buying them) in order to look cool for a few months, or middle aged investors looking for a financially sound hobby. it used to be about going out and dancing, now its about money, one way or another - people spending it or earning it. thats the state of the record scene today. dont make boots, dont sell boots, dont buy boots, support the hardcore underground, that's where the spirit of the music is maintained.

That seller put that up on here. In fairness, I think he's selling an original but a) its not unknown and b) the last couple on ebay went for about $150. I know cos I was after it but realised it was absolutely impossible to dance to.]

‘If you don’t collect you’re not worthy.’ ‘A white label is the only label’ ‘Fuck the overlap class. They don’t belong here.’ Think he's having a bad trip or something; I've never heard anyone say any of those things. Dont know what the second two would even mean. he doesnt seem to realise : the bitter, angry middle aged man spitting bile from behind a keyboard...is him.

Over ten years ago, a few groundbreaking djs who didnt need telling what was good were playing, amongst other things, the great r&b 45 'where's my money' by willie jones. I used to travel every month, then every week, to hear such tunes, and as it was the only way to hear them. so did a lot of people, to r&b clubs like the hideaway, not that there were many clubs like that, which meant that everyone who liked r&b was at the same place. anyhow, searching for the 45 today on ebay you'll find 3, yes 3, different pressings - a lookalike, a cheap tat thing, and a trying to be trendy looking one, plus someone trying to sell a copy that looks like it's been dug up for $300. it seems that whatever beautiful things humans produce, others in time conspire to debase, exploit and cheapen. Who does all this crap sell to, what is the point of it and what good comes of it? And It seems like this is a microcosm of our culture ; masses of superfluous crap dressed up as choice. This isnt progress, it isn't even retrogress. It's degeneration. willie jones deserves to be heard alright, it's just that people dont deserve to hear it.

Really? Finding a few examples of good tracks doesnt really make that argument hold. America, more than the uk, is flooded with terrible, inept or simple flawed 45s that sold huge quantities....what about national hits like Louie louie, 96 tears, the jerk or wooly bully? A million miles ahead of this, really? and they're the ones that have survived in our collective conciousness, what about the ones that haven't, like herman's hermits ' I'm henry the 8th I am'. you're saying, basically, that there is a corellation between success and quality, which isn't only wrong, it's offensive to all poor selling records. no one has said that it might have been a no 1 worldwide, just that it is too good and mainstream sounding to have been such a drastic flop. Especially when you consider the left field or awful records that are relatively common. And I prefer it to all of the three hits you mentioned, so in what way are they miles ahead? are you saying that by studying music my whole life my taste has ended up less refined, somehow, than that of the hit buying masses of the mid 60s?]

I would sum it up like this. we'd rather listen to someone sing or play with feeling and character and it be a bit unrefined than listen to something with all the feeling polished off. something like james lately - tears running and falling... it's like being in the room with the guy, and he just starts singing what he wants to say. for me there's an optimum point between production and expression achieved on lots of 60s soul records like gene toones for example, but for pure soul music, the less interference between the soul and the stylus the better. if you like polish, try some steely dan.