Thinksmart

Ah Jackie Wilson. I agree. I was outraged he wasn't even mentioned in that recent 3 part BBC series on Soul Music.

I have had or still got 181 of them but most I'm not bothered about anymore. Some were albums of the moment that didn't last to me, or had one or two great songs. Some albums also reflect a point in your life and fade away. As always a lot to quibble about and a very USA centric view - but still some fun to look through and wonder what will still be there when it is done in a decade. I too wouldn't say WGO is the best ever or even Marvin's most enjoyable, perhaps the most important but not one I feel compelled to return to constantly.

I'm from Nottingham too and very similar to Len, the Notts Mod route. So was very young entrant into nights and niters with the much older Mod lot from about 1984 onwards (Coyley from Clifton). However weirdly the best time for me was very early 1990s when I wasn't a Mod anymore, but I was absolutely obsessed with the Soul scene (such as it was and of course, I still am as keen as ever). The scene was just starting to build again, there was a lot of renewed excitement, everybody knew everyone for a while and the discoveries were coming in strong - especially all the Motown first time plays. It felt underground again at the time, the mixture of young people like me, people coming back as their kids grew up, people who never left. It was also totally about the music (or so it seemed at the time), there wasn't any of the overuse of NS imagery or facebook groups - it was still, be at a certain place, get your tickets at robs, write away for lists, swap tapes then the very start of internet era with Keeping The Faith group. Because at first attendance was sparse, you had to be there, you had to support the scene, in the late 80s in my teens I was going to NS events that gave up after a couple of hours and I drifted away for a year or two as there were so few in, while over at Kool Kat/Garage, The Bomb or Venus, Chicago house was ramming us in. I wanted to get that back in soul again and by early 1990s it was starting to happen. There was NS music played everywhere in and around Nottingham, any night or time we would go out with NS played constantly. We would even go out on a Sunday night with pubs having NS nights, it was about making the effort to keep it going. Everyone has their time and maybe not many would pick that era - but to see NS build again and flourish, to see nites going from a depressing situation of more DJs/bouncers/bar staff than us then soon filled venues again, to people being so into the music they would hang around singing and chatting for hours after sessions was awesome (obvious those were nights/alldayers not niters). CDs were coming in and passed around, new music, just keep it coming, Jimmy Frazer!! Pete Smith would send me loads of CDrs that had music that you just could not get anywhere, and I was suddenly writing a few CD sleeve notes being more keen than knowledgeable, record prices seemed really low, with a smaller scene everbody was mixing and just grateful to be with each other. Record shops were still everywhere, record fairs locally were constant, I'd started to get dealers ring me and entice me to buy some records - you felt like you were IN. Latin/Boogaloo was adding to the mix, some of the first pure R&B plays, a bit of furious Hard Soul/Funk played. Buying The Chants 'I Don't Need Your Love' on demo in pristine condition and just looking at it with awe. NS does that for us across many eras. One moment I recall, I was in some basement... top 500 type NS in the main, 'hardcore NS' downstairs with everyone stood around thinking 'is this credible enough to go first dancing to'. I was covered in sweat, absolutely in the zone on the floor, early hours when this furious girl-group R&B comes on, probably pitched up a bit more - stomper, sounds New Yorkish, R&B harmonica, WTF? Poppy but R&B harmonica, what the hell! That song destroyed the floor that night, nobody around it knew it was Bull Dog by the Shangrilas. It wasn't a Soulful epic, but sometimes that's not what the moment needs as we all know. I hunted for ages to find out what it was and I'm sure it's a totally obvious record to many, not really soulful but that brief moment it was THE record as everyone gave in to its relentless pace and grinned at each other. I asked around after and got the reaction 'there is no girl group R&B called Bulldog, I'm telling you'. But telling the people the next time I saw them what it was, that look back was pure NS. Then of course the track was ruined, but amongst my mates, I (re)found it! All of this felt incredible (and still might not compare to the days youngsters like me read about). It was a mix of people who seemed to know everything, people like me who knew nothing lapping it up. A few years later, my pregnant wife was pepper sprayed outside Nottingham Palais at one night by some people trying to disrupt the night and the support and care we had, was and is very special (that son is now 22!). That was all part of what made Northern Soul what it was at the time and is still.

I do not agree that Soul is done and dusted, like many forms of music it is just absorbed into the wider culture and evolves onwards. I'm buying loads of new Soul every month and enjoying it. But I take your point. I envisage that the shows were edited fairly quickly as footage shown to trail the next episode then wasn't there for two of the episodes (George Benson specifically for episode 3). Agree on Luther - I said that too at the time.

The final part of this tried to cover a huge amount - PIR, the 70s male soul singers such as Barry White, Peabo and Teddy Pendergrass, Disco, Quiet Storm format, female soul, Luther and the like. It seemed to wrap up Soul in about 1988 to fit the time and didn't even mention anything afterwards other than showing Aretha at Obama's inauguration. Inevitably it was just too much for an hour. Excellent footage as ever but it raced by in a superficial way. I got the sense they really wanted to make a dedicated programme on Luther. The ending in particular was a bit frustrating I thought. Overall, what was there was appreciated although such a concise edit made for only the most cursory glance at the music.

What an artist. Love Brought Me Back is also a classic and so much great music by him. An immense voice.

I have not seen this mentioned, so doing so now! The fifth release in the series is back after over a decade. I have the double CD with me now and about to listen. https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?26511-A-Cellarful-Of-Motown-Vol-5

'Bring me the next Stormzy'

Yes I'm enjoying it on that basis too Westender - there's loads of interest in each programme even if I have delved into what's not there. I think we get documentaries that reflect the time they are made and the same subject can have different emphasis in the retelling across the decades.

I'm enjoying this latest edition in the series. It made for a great garden soundtrack in the late summer warmth over the weekend.

Sad as people say. Her 1977 album was good too with the rare groove/Modern song Oop! Here I Go Again:

I welcome the series and as you say, the chuch/Gospel aspects need to be included, but I'd hope in a way balanced that enables more inclusion. I feel the overall narrative of the series is too narrow and episode two further focuses in on only one aspect. Episode two only covers Soul from the perspective of black emancipation between 1967-1973. Hardly any female Soul artists are covered at all which was a big omission given the emergence of strong solo female singers in their own right. Sly Stone is not included (or LA at all), no Gil Scott Heron which is odd given the topic of the episode, nor Edwin Starr's War which would of been highly relevant. It's very centred around who they have access to. Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye, James Brown are only included in relation to one signature song along the narrative of the episode. It is interesting to watch and the footage/interviews are welcome - but the overall thread through it is told to resonate with current events, which I do really get. However it means you already need to know about the artists and Soul before watching it or you would think 'well who is this Curtis Mayfield being mentioned'. We can say they don't have room to include more, but they have repeated segments of talking heads basically saying the same thing. The Isley Brothers aren't mentioned but would of been a useful example of a band going from R&B through Soul to hard edged funk-soul, including rock guitar, their socially-conscious but melodic soul that crossed over and onwards into their romantic area - they are a perfect example of how many aspects of Soul are embodied in one act (and often one album). Like many of us, I've got a large Soul collection after all these years and I'd suggest >70% of Soul songs are about love/romance/sex/relationships, or dancefloor/hanging out, or getting on/hustling/making money and the latest novelty dances and the like which is all entirely missing from the series, which is the broader life of the people whose music this reflects. Tge series focuses on Stax a lot so if we look at the entire output of Stax in 1967-1973 range of the second part - most of the songs are still about love and the topics I mentioned above, rather than the topics covered exclusively in the episode. WattStax was covered and what song was it that Rufus Thomas got everyone up to, the Funky Chicken! For me most importantly, there's little sense of the joy and exhuberance of Soul coming through in the series (though that Rufus Thomas footage was a good example of people just wanting to let go, enjoy themselves and party with their own people). There's no connection at all that this is music also that was often made for their audience to dance to (in USA, I don't mean UK). Even with the social problems, USA perceived itself at the time as an aspirational, American-dream country. While that was denied to many at least the making money, capitalist focus of such as James Brown was touched on. The series is told as though Soul is almost entirely a form of protest music, which is far too narrow and not true. This was music made by young adults mostly reflecting all their experience so that overlapping complication deserves to be told too. Anything not already covered is going to get little or no coverage in episode three which is all about the second generation of 'Soul Men' - the balladeers of 1970s and 1980s from the preview. So it has to cram in that plus Philly Soul, the emergence of Funk (if covered at all), Disco, 80s synth Soul/Luther/George Benson as shown in the footage at the end and bring it all up to the current day. I really do think the lack of coverage of any female Soul artists beyond The Supremes and Candi Staton popping up to speak is perhaps the most jarring omission. It is important to tell that part too as the series makes Soul feel mostly a male musical form. By 1973 when the episode ended - Gladys Knight, Millie Jackson, Ann Peebles, Roberta Flack, Sylvia, Aretha, Tina Turner with Ike, The Pointer Sisters (plus other groups with female singers such as The Persuaders) all were in the year end Billboard R&B top hundred selling singles of the year. Gladys Knight in particular had five in the top 100 and two in the top 10 sellers - yet not one of them mentioned at all in the second episode as the series turns onwards to 'Soul Men' again. There is much still to enjoy in each episode, I'm just critiquing as this is our area of interest.

Sad news and very young for such a long career.

It was okay but reduced the history too much for me to cover just Gospel/Aretha/Sam Cooke, South/Stax/Otis & Detroit/Motown. Jackie Wilson and Chicago Soul, New York Soul & importance of Harlem Apollo, Drifters & Ben E King all totally ignored as examples. Black Doo Wop, girl groups and evolution into early Soul missing. Key early artists in the transition who were big stars at the time such as Hank Ballard or Little Willie John missing. No New Orleans soul mentioned at all which and no mention of Jazz evolving to incorporate the Soul Jazz subgenre of the time. Footage of Civil Rights but The Impressions not mentioned alongside as could of added musical context. Sometimes felt like a Civil Rights programme told through Soul music, not the other way around. Might of helped if key songs like Get a Job and You Better Move On mentioned. No doubt Stevie Wonder, Smokey, Impressions, JB will be in next week. I enjoyed the artist interviews and old footage - the rest I was very disappointed with. Soul deserves the Ken Burns style extensive series. I am grateful for the series but do not see how such as Jackie Wilson, Fats Domino, Gladys Knight, Drifters etc could be totally ignored without even a mention as there was plenty of time for extensive non musical context. I know I am asking for too much, modern documentaries now pick a narrow path through their subjects, but I welcome the day we get a more complete study.

Looks like one to watch.

Essential reading. Great production values it seems.

Damn. Thanks.

Looking forward to it Pete. Rod's book arrived quickly today.

Great. Post up soon as you can with details. We all appreciate your continued dedication I'm sure. All these books are very welcome to me.

Just ordered the book. It looks excellent. Thanks for highlighting it.

Excellent, thank you. I have Amazon Prime and rarely use the TV side of it. These will be welcome watches. Sky Arts/Documentaries and BBC4 are another source I checked the schedules of every week too.

Public Domain music within the limitations of expired copyright under the law is still legit of course. I'd rather people deal with the original license holders, but the debate on legal copyright expiry is a complex one. As we know that is an interesting and wider topic.

"Given that Mickey Finn's the only one who replied to my question, I've still no idea." I gave a comprehensive answer as your first reply at the start, that was very clear on what'll pay as a premium. I've contributed since and it gets just a touch frustrating when you have said a couple of times that nobody has replied to the question when I and others are trying to help. It's not really a simple yes or no anyway to whether someone will pay a premium on CD, it depends on the item. One person's must have Disco or Gospel album is not attractive to the mid-60s specialist who wants Deep or Northern Soul only. The value also reflects how much of an artist been reissued and do they have collector or dancefloor interest. To be more specific for you, for the right CD I and others already pay a premium, it depends on the item. I'm less fussed about Funk so wouldn't pay a premium for that, but for CDs more in my area of interest - sure, so long as it feels sensible. I'll pay up to about £15 for the right release, but after that I start to question it a lot more if there is only one or two songs on an otherwise poor album. Modern Soul is especially prone to this, with one song often on a pure Disco album that I have little wider interest in. For the 1975 Ronnie McNeir album as an example (or any of the albums mentioned as not on CD yet here and in other threads), I'd pay up to around £20 but haven't bought the Japanese reissue going for £40+ on import as that just doesn't sit well with me. For some rare imports with songs on I cannot get any other way, I'll often end up paying in the £15-£30 range. The reissued Rivage album is available now for £11 on CD, whereas the Spaceark reissues in recent years were £15 from the start. I hope that is helpful.

Yes enjoying the Don Bryant album immensely.

Thanks, I will be ordering this. Best wishes, Mark