Peter Richer

I don't think I've paid over the odds for many records, although I'm sure other people think I have! I paid £1,300 for a copy of the Cautions (No Other Way) on auction a couple of years back when it was tending to sell for £800 on E-bay, but the one I got was absolutely stone mint, and there's not many of the later Shrine issues you can say that about. I actually think it is probably worth about £1,500 now in that condition, and I'm very glad I bought it - it is a prized jewel in my collection. There really is no 'right price' for a record. I get lists from John Manship, Shifty, John Anderson and Henry Atkinson (among others), and there are differences between them on even the relatively common records such as the Impressions (You've Been Cheating) and Spyder Turner (I Can't Make It Anymore). It's not always the same dealers who are the most expensive, or the cheapest, either. Which one is right? They try to value them at a price which will sell and get a good return for themselves. People tend to pay 'over the odds' if it is a fashionable in-demander (e.g. Brown Sugar a couple of years back), or if they are trying to squeeze a rare record out of an unwilling seller's collection. Proper auctions give a truer reflection of top price, and by proper auctions I mean like John Manship's which continues (just after the closing time) until everyone has finished bidding within a reasonable amount of time - just like Sotheby's or Christie's does (going once ... going twice ... etc.). Although these still depend on who wants the record, and how much they can afford, at that period in time. It can, and does, fluctuate. However, a common misconception is that a record is worth what the winner is prepared to pay. It's not, it's worth just a little bit more than the SECOND highest bidder is prepared to pay at that time. And next time it comes up for sale who knows who the second highest bidder will be, and how much they'll be willing to pay? You never know just how far the winner was prepared to go! Another interesting point, from my recent experience, is that the psychology of the sale comes into play. Shifty was kind enough to sell a Dena Barnes issue for me. A couple of lists back it was on auction with a starting bid of £350, and nobody at all was interested. So, last list it went on set sale for £500 and it sold within a couple of days! Amazing. It could still be construed as a bargain though, as a year ago one sold on JM's auction for £700! Peter

Some good points there John. People sometimes 'forget' to consider the broader picture. A couple of records still worth a bomb: Mikki Farrow - Set My Heart At Ease; was regularly on Soul Bowl during the late 1970s for £6. Masqueraders - How; again, was on Soul Bowl for £2.50, and everyone says there are loads of copies. Funny how it never comes up for sale though, and is now a solid £1,000 record. Peter

[i've just copied this post from the other thread, just to add a bit of flavour and help the topic get going] chalky Posted Today, 09:35 PM Â Since 2004 the Cashmeres on ebay was selling for between $835 and as high as $2150 which was a tad ott IMHO, on average the record was selling for around $1500, give or take a bit half what Tim valued it at in his guide, which is after all a guide. That btw is for copies that popsike have picked up on, know there has been more than the copies stated. 50 copies only, I bet there's been almost that up for sale via auctions, lists and sales boxes at venues the past few years, have seen it for sale often enough was also told one seller on e-bay had multiple copies, rumour or fact dunno? as for the understating of values by those who should know better, give us some examples? the so called understatement could after all be just a honest opinion, maybe the last value the one who should know better saw a record sold for? ---------------------------------- These are interesting points Chalky; and of course condition, the number of people looking to buy (and the strength of their demand (and wallet!) at any given time), and indeed how many new copies have turned up, all play their part. The other thing we don't know is whether the same copies of a record are being re-sold! Even the respected record dealers of 30+ years standing are only estimating the number of copies, except in the cases where only very few have ever been found and are well documented (such as Mello Souls, Inspirations on Breakthrough, Don Gardner 'Cheating Kind', the really rare stuff on Shrine etc.), or where hundreds have been seen at the same time (such as Frankie Beverly on Sassy or Epitome of Sound) in which case 'rarity' doesn't really come into it. Peter

chalky Posted Today, 09:35 PM Â Since 2004 the Cashmeres on ebay was selling for between $835 and as high as $2150 which was a tad ott IMHO, on average the record was selling for around $1500, give or take a bit half what Tim valued it at in his guide, which is after all a guide. That btw is for copies that popsike have picked up on, know there has been more than the copies stated. 50 copies only, I bet there's been almost that up for sale via auctions, lists and sales boxes at venues the past few years, have seen it for sale often enough was also told one seller on e-bay had multiple copies, rumour or fact dunno? as for the understating of values by those who should know better, give us some examples? the so called understatement could after all be just a honest opinion, maybe the last value the one who should know better saw a record sold for? ---------------------------------- These are interesting points Chalky; and of course condition, the number of people looking to buy (and the strength of their demand (and wallet!) at any given time), and indeed how many new copies have turned up, all play their part. The other thing we don't know is whether the same copies of a record are being re-sold! Even the respected record dealers of 30+ years standing are only estimating the number of copies, except in the cases where only very few have ever been found and are well documented (such as Mello Souls, Inspirations on Breakthrough, Don Gardner 'Cheating Kind', the really rare stuff on Shrine etc.), or where hundreds have been seen at the same time (such as Frankie Beverly on Sassy or Epitome of Sound) in which case 'rarity' doesn't really come into it. Peter [i shall now copy this post to add to the thread started by Soulfulsaint]

Pete-S Posted Today, 08:34 PM You're making a show of yourself trying to be clever. Nobody has got QUANTITY of them but they regularly sell on Ebay for between 500 and 1000 dollars and have done in the 6 or 7 years I've been using Ebay. 500 would be a below average condition copy but it's a fact. A copy will turn up almost every month. That does not make it a rare record. That Mr Lucky record I sold for 2500 earlier this year, whats that, a five known copy record? Yet the Cashmeres is worth only 500 quid less despite their being a couple of hundred copies in the UK? Now you've got Chalky also telling you it's not that rare so try taking the piss out of him. It's perfectly reasonable to point it out when people are contradicting themselves in the process of being tendentious. I refer to greater experts than me: Tim Brown in his guide (late 2004) lists the Cashmeres on Hem at £1,500; John Manship in his recent 'Million Dollars ...' book estimates the rarity at 50 copies or less. Plus, rarity alone does not equate to price - you as a record dealer ought to realize this. And now YOU'VE got Soulfulsaint also telling you that certain record values are regularly understated on this forum, by people who should know better! Not 'taking the piss' ... this is REASONED argument, based on respected sources. Peter

1) Pete-S Posted Yesterday, 06:28 PM That one also sprung off the page as it regularly goes on ebay for between 500 and 1000 dollars 2) Pete-S Posted Today, 06:15 PM Â Nobodys saying they've got them at 500 3) Pete-S Posted Today, 08:01 PM Â QUOTE(Peter Richer @ Jul 22 2006, 06:59 PM) 'Funny that? I could have sworn somebody said they REGULARLY sell for between $500 and $1,000.' They do. ????? Make up your mind Pete ..... are they regularly selling at $500 or not? Let me know if they are ... I'll have TWENTY FIVE at around £300 each!!! Peter

Funny that? I could have sworn somebody said they REGULARLY sell for between $500 and $1,000. That's approximately £300-600. So, the TOP END going rate is apparently £600. As I haven't had any PMs yet, I should obviously stop being so mean! OK then, I'll buy up to ten in vitually mint condition for £650 each. Form an orderly queue now please folks!!!! Peter

It seems to me that people often choose to be somewhat biased about where they think prices of certain top records OUGHT to be. Look at the trend in values of some big records which have recently sold on JM's auction: Lillie Bryant: Top 500 price (2000) = £500; JM2 (2003) = £1,000; recent JM auction = £2,200+ Salvadors: Top 500 price = £800; JM2 = £1,500; recent JM auction = £3,300+ John & Wierdest: Top 500 price = £1,000; JM2 = £1,300; recent JM auction = £2,600+ Cashmeres: Top 500 price = £1,000; JM2 = £1,300; recent JM auction = £1,900+ Both Lillie Bryant and the Salvadors DOUBLED in price in the first 3 years, and had QUADRUPLED by the next 3 years. John & Wierdest is just over 2.5 times greater. Whereas the Cashmeres is LESS than twice the price over the six year period. All of these records had become top sounds and very in-demand long before, so no change on that score. By my maths that makes the Cashmeres seem like a bargain!! Unless of course there have been more 'rumours' which I haven't yet heard about!?!? OK, so you might have seen the Cashmeres on e-bay at some point for $1,000, but I tell you what - if anybody has any more of their Show Stoppers in almost mint condition (which the one on auction was) for £500 I will buy up to TEN of them. This is a genuine offer - feel free to PM me! Peter

Glad someone gave Tony Dellar a mention - he kept northern soul going with dedication and enthusiasm (and his own peculiar style!!) in Cambridge, week after week at the Howard Mallett, and (usually) had very good taste in soul music. There was a thread recently about 'Stafford sounds' where somebody cited the Metros - Since I Found My Baby as a prime example! For goodness sake, you could hear Tony play this, most weeks, to a full floor at the Mallett during the '70s!!?! And how about Ian Clark? I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Ian and the great musical taste and style he brought to the decks for many years. Not sure I'm qualified to say whether he was 'the best', but surely he merits some consideration?! Peter

vinylvixen May 2 2006, 08:12 PM Willie Hutch - Love Runs Out/ Replace: Bobby Hutton - Lend a Hand Sandi Sheldon - You're Gonna Make Me Love You/ Replace: Yvonne Baker - You didn't say a word Darrell Banks - Our Love Is In The Pocket/ Replace: Open the door to your heart Sandy Wynns - The Touch Of Venus/ Replace: Lorraine Chandler - Tell Me You're mine Al Williams - I Am Nothing/ Replace: Paris - Sleepless Nights Dee Dee Sharp - What Kind Of Lady/ Replace: Ruby Andrews - Better Impressions - You've Been Cheating/ Replace: Superlatives - I still love you Linda Jones - Just Can't Live My Life - STAYS PUT - NEVER EVER GETS KICKED OFF.... Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More/ Replace: Sam Fletcher - I'd think it over Eula Cooper - Let Our Love Grow Higher/ Replace: Dells - Make Sure And just for good measure, how about an instrumental: Hank Jacobs - Elijah Rockin' With Soul/ Replace: Hold On Help is on It's Way - G Davis & R Tyler Am I doing this right...........probably not Anyway, that's my ha'pence worth. Jo Hi Jo, . . . and yes, thanks for being one of the few people to actually try to go along with the idea and spirit of the thread. One question though: with respect to the records you've kicked out, do you actually not think they're great? Or do you just prefer the ones you've selected to replace them? If you still love the first lot, then (against the odds!!) I'll have to start drawing up a longer list! If you really don't care for those records (Eula Cooper, Willie Hutch, Dee Dee Sharp ... ) please tell us why!? Peter PS - Let's try to keep it FUN folks! And remember, we are NOT (as many people seem believe!?!) trying to: a) Find just ONE record which defines northern soul (apparently been done on a previous thread), or List each person's top 10 (or 11, or however many ...).

Hi Gary, I like to store my records in label name + number order (as an auditor and a sad anoraky type person ... although I like to think of it as organized!!) which I think is the 'proper' way to do it. It also helps you to get to know your records better. As for cataloguing, it is handy to input artist, title and label (and other details such as demo or value) into spreadsheet cells. You can then 'sort' the spreadsheet by column, to list the records alphabetically in whatever order you want, such as artist or label. You could also enter date bought if you want a historical view, or develop your own numbering system (just to complicate things!!). I also tape (or you can write to CD) new records so I can listen to them whenever I like, and get to know them. Although I have been known to accidentally buy second copies of records which I'd forgotten I had!!?! Peter

Peter, Love them all, but think maybe Williams & Watson - Too Late ought to be there? Alan Cheers Alan, .... But if you already love them all who would you kick out, and why?!? That's where the fun starts. And does everyone else love Williams and Watson too .... ??? Peter

Actually, having just thought about it, I think I'll have to veto the Carla Thomas track (wonderful though it is), because it doesn't fully satisfy me with my collector's hat on. I think I'd always have to go with records which were imprinted into vinyl, and with a proper label on, prior to their popularity on the northern scene. No offence meant to Horace's/Kent records - excellent stuff Ady! Peter

Pete-S Posted Today, 09:52 AM Â Can I just add that we've done this exact thread before, trying to find just ONE record that everyone could agree on was a uniting Northern Soul record, it went on for about 5 pages and I still can't remember what actually won it.. Must have been a really memorable record then Pete!!! lol Actually we're trying to find 11 records - 5 male leads, 5 female leads and 1 instrumental - which are uptempo and soulful. Not necessarily THE BEST records in one soulies opinion, but tracks which it is thought EVERY 'type' of northern fan loves (dancers, connoisseurs, collectors etc.). Lots of names being thrown into the ring, but not much in the way of reasoning why they should replace any one of the others. So, the list as I think it stands, kicking out Darrel Banks and Sandy Wynns in favour of Seven Souls and Ty Karim is: Willie Hutch - Love Runs Out Sandi Sheldon - You're Gonna Make Me Love You Seven Souls - I Still Love You Ty Karim - Lighten Up Baby Al Williams - I Am Nothing Dee Dee Sharp - What Kind Of Lady Impressions - You've Been Cheating Linda Jones - Just Can't Live My Life Major Lance - You Don't Want me No More Eula Cooper - Let Our Love Grow Higher Hank Jacobs - Elijah Rocking With Soul Some good shouts made for Eddie Parker (I'm Gone), Carla Thomas, and Salvadors .... anyone want to say who they should replace?? Or anyone else want to veto them as being tracks they don't love!? Peter

Seven Souls and Frank Wilson are both good calls . . . . but you have to say which of the other male vocal tracks you would veto for their places?? Personally I think the Frank Wilson is a great song and track, with brilliant harmonies, but the lead vocal is a little weak. Peter

soulfulsaint Posted Today, 02:21 PM Â I'm going to exclude Sandy Wynns 'A Touch of Venus' for the more soulful Ty Karim 'Lighten Up Baby'. Maybe too slow for some but I like sets that vary pace as well as taste. am I alone? The track 'Lighten Up Baby' is actually quite uptempo (as opposed to the much slower 'Lighten Up' - which I guess is what you probably meant(?)) - and I think would be a better choice as it has the much adopted backing track which everyone loves (surely???), is superbly soulful and a great dancer. Got to be highly regarded in all camps! Any dissentions? Peter

We all have a passion for great Northern Soul, and there are literally thousands of superb records. But there are also loads of records played on the scene which many of us either hate, dislike or are simply indifferent to. Of course we all have different tastes, and some styles such as R&B, 70s, beat ballads, or too 'poppy' music which can leave many soulies cold. So are there any records which unite us all together? Records which we all got into northern soul for, and which are cherished by dancers, collectors, 'connoisseurs' and chin-strokers alike. No? Impossible? Well maybe not. Let's have a go. Can we find 10 great soulful and uptempo tracks which we ALL know and love - 5 by male artists and 5 by females (and with no artist listed more than once)? Here's my first crack at it: Willie Hutch - Love Runs Out Sandi Sheldon - You're Gonna Make Me Love You Darrell Banks - Our Love Is In The Pocket Sandy Wynns - The Touch Of Venus Al Williams - I Am Nothing Dee Dee Sharp - What Kind Of Lady Impressions - You've Been Cheating Linda Jones - Just Can't Live My Life Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More Eula Cooper - Let Our Love Grow Higher And just for good measure, how about an instrumental: Hank Jacobs - Elijah Rockin' With Soul OK, so that's 11 - anyone not think these are brill and want to veto (never mind whether some may have been overplayed)?!? If you veto any you must give a 'better' alternative. Peter

Cheers Chalky - Just trying to provide a bit of extra info for the originator of this thread (I don't know a lot so I have to chip in where I can!!). So, do you have any thoughts on rarity or value of the record? Peter

The record Chalky first mentioned is by Lee Tillman and the Secrets and called She's The One I Love. It is actually on the Whit label, not Whip (close, but no cigar!! - Whip is the one Carol Anderson's Taking My Mind Off Love/I'm Not Worried is on). Anyone know whether this is quite rare or not? And current value? I haven't seen it for sale for some time on the lists I get, and it is not in the Manship's guides. Peter

????? Shifty's telephone numbers are posted up in the sales section every time he puts out an e-mail list (every 3 weeks or so)! They are all still on there now. And in any case, why on earth would a record dealer not want their business numbers to be publicised amongst prospective record buyers?!? Come to think of it though, I can understand why I might not want his numbers there of course - more competition for his records!!! Peter

Just out of interest / for information (not boasting!), I have a totally clean copy on Peak. No writing whatsoever, and vinyl is virtually mint too. I bought it from John Manship about 4 or 5 months ago - it was on his website at £100 then. Don't know where he found it, but I suspect a clean one would be worth more than £100 now.

Hi All, It was me who bought the Gene Woodbury for £300 (well, £309 to be precise!). I paid that because I particularly wanted it in my collection and, as Baz says, it doesn't seem to come up for sale anymore and it was in beautiful condition. I'm sure it was Pottsy who had one on E-bay a few months back but I wasn't around to bid on it. I think it went for over £200 but I could be wrong there. (Anyone know?) In the past two years I have asked at least 4 dealers if they could get hold of a GW for me, none of whom had had a copy for a while, although one did have a Bernie Williams in stock! But like Ted says there may be more come out of the woodwork now. On a number of occasions members on here have wondered what 'lunatics' buy from John's auctions. Well I had a quick count up this morning and I have bought at least 15 items, and sold one. Many people believe I'm bonkers anyway, but on most of these records I've paid a fair price (or a little over, if I really want the record and it rarely comes up for sale). For example I had: Dean Courtney - Love, You Just Can't Walk Away - MGM ... £250 Patrice Holloway - Stolen Hours - Capitol ... £250 Andrea Henry - I Need You Like A Baby - MGM (black issue) ... £400 Sam & Kitty - I've Got Something Good - Four Brothers (west coast demo) ... £195 Velvet Satins - Nothing Can Compare To You - General American (white demo with no red swirl) ... £330 Inspirations - Your Wish Is My Command - Midas ... £530 All in near mint condition!! And, I know the records will arrive safely next day. And, I know I can send them back if I don't like what I get! OK, I may have paid a little over the odds for a couple on Shrine, but how often will I get the chance to pick up a really good copy of Les Chansonettes or a decent, playable copy of the Cavaliers?? I know some of the prices John's Auctions fetch are amazing, and indeed more than a little disappointing if a couple of people go mad over a record you wanted to bid on (and it only takes two wealthy and desperate punters to send the price into orbit)! It's even more baffling when the records are clearly rubbish or pop, but there's no accounting for taste! Yesterday I wanted to buy Frankie Beverly - Because Of My Heart, but not at over £1,900 !!! Unfortunately there are sometimes adverse knock on effects on prices. Everybody knows the Masqueraders - How should not really be worth £1,100, but nobody will now sell me one for a sensibly high price of, say, £400 - £500. Everyone wants top auction price. Anyway, just a perspective there from a reasonably regular JM auction buyer. Comments (and even straight-jackets) welcome! Oh yes, and if someone wants to sell me good condition copies of the Masqueraders or Frankie Beverly at SENSIBLE prices, there's cash waiting .... !?! Cheers, Peter

Thanks Chalky, that's the Don Gardner shunted into the 'more than 10 copies' category (unless anyone else disagrees?!?) Any more cracks at likely numbers of known copies of any of the records mentioned? Any more myths to be dispelled??

Simon - The B side has: 1. My Baby Ain't No Plaything - Willie Jones, and 2. In The Pocket - Detroit Strings

Russ - there's quite a few tasty west coast items which would set the pulse racing. Would you be able to keep a decent poker face if you were handing over $3 for one in those sales?! Doesn't that Patrinell Staten eminate from Seattle too? Any idea on the number of known copies of that? Pete - I'm glad there's a few of the Pat Lewis around. As you say it's a great record, and I'd love to have one in my collection. Let me know next time you turn one up!