Frankie Crocker

Must be a record price for the Four Perfections.

Wow. That’s a wide scatter of locations. Never seen a DJ copy of the Martineques. Only seen it on a deep blue-purple label. Always suspected it was a Detroit record and it would be nice to have that confirmed.

The record is back on eBay, up for auction and clearly described as an unofficial carver. Good that the vendor has clarified the sales pitch so the unwary will not fall into a trap. Baffled why this item should be put up for auction as it is not a rare, original release. It is a bootleg and fit only for a low buy-it-now price tag although the purists would probably rather it was not on eBay in the first place.

Interesting thread. For what it’s worth, I bought my copy of the Martineques on Me-O in Detroit in the mid 1990’s. Has anyone else out there found a copy in the wild, and if so where? There are 9 copies on Popsike, one of which has sold twice; four copies appear to be from the same source. So, this is a very rare and highly desirable record. The scarcity reflects very low sales, possibly in a single, local market, quite probably an urban area like Detroit.

Ah, but what did you pay for Cecil Washington on Prophonics?

And They’ll Never Know Why...

Sure, there’s someone out there beating us all to the big ticket items. Lost track of the rarities that have gone to a very rich bidder or bidders in the last year or so. If I had the money, I would do the same, just fritter it away on more expensive records. There’s no con involved. Record prices rise due to increased demand relative to shrinking supply. No longer can we con the US dealers to part with their records for paltry sums. Only the dim end up being conned. Everyone makes mistakes buying records but it’s not a con unless you buy bootlegs in the belief they are originals.

Good idea for a thread. Just nominate the rarest of the rare whether you have a copy or not. The total pressed though is not easily deduced from company invoices, Popsike auction price database, old sales lists etc. Many rare records are tucked away in collections and have been for over 40 years: only a small proportion of these rarities see the light of day when the owner DJs with them. Many of the records we chase after were only pressed in quantities of 200, 300 or 500. Press runs would be larger in major cities but much less in smaller cities and towns. Record companies found it very difficult to raise the cash to pay for large quantities to be pressed. Much depended on the success of early sales based on radio exposure that could result in another press run. The industry standard usually involved 25 copies going into thick or thin 25 count boxes. Four of these were put into a square 100 count box. Sometimes 200 records were put into a rectangular box, especially if it was a well known group that sold thousands. A person could carry a hundred count box easily enough and split the boxes amongst the group. A couple of 25 count boxes would supply the local radio stations and one-stop shops where reps would mark X’s on the play-side. A 100 count box could have been split at a group’s concert and given away to fans, friends and family who attended. For a group that produced one record for a very local market, a press run of 300 would generate short-term interest but hardly generate the finance to fund another release. This explains why many records are are in short supply but occasionally turn up in very small numbers.

Rotten bad luck. You did well to spot the issue though. When I get records that skip, I play them on an old 60’s or 70’s portable player a few times as this can remove blockages on worn copies. I’m on the lookout for an upgrade for my DJ copy so I looked closely at the one for sale. I put a low bid on it knowing it would go for more. My heart sunk when I saw it was flawed.

Stanley Mitchell was cracked.

A great tune. Hardly any copies in existence. Hundreds of collectors would be delighted to own it. No chance of old store stock turning up in New Orleans. This is the sort of record auctions were devised for. Might go as high as 4K depending on which two DJ’s have the cash.

That was what I suspected. The description was very detailed and presented in a way to authenticate the record. The key word ‘bootleg’ was omitted. The wrong side of the record was featured in the scan for some reason. The record was put up for auction rather than a buy it now offer. Some were drawn in to bid and then disappointed. Bootlegs are a plague on the collecting scene and sellers should be very careful about how their wares are marketed unless they are prepared to lose credibility.

I’ve never heard Russ interviewed at length until now. Sure, he’s made very brief contributions to various programmes, but not lengthy enough to match the current batch of mis-fits in government. Yes, I agree, it’s time to hear these sounds. Russ, if you’re reading this, please post some scans and a few soundbites if you can.

The seller in question based in London currently has an Yvonne Baker ‘unofficial’ release and a Denise La Salle ‘carver’ for sale plus an assortment of other proper looking records. This should give cause for concern to bidders thinking of splashing out hundreds or thousands.

Apologies for the lack of link but I’m useless at this stuff. I noticed the item late in the day. Did a bit of research and found the lookalikes on Popsike. Great record and one that I’d be delighted to own. The UK seller described the record in detail giving run-out info but I could not tell if it was a genuine first issue. In fact, the sales blurb was so convincing, I thought it must be the real thing. However, it looked like the bootlegs on Popsike so I thought I better get some expert insight. As the auction was terminated prematurely, maybe someone has avoided paying a record price for an Ivory’s bootleg...I hope so! Thanks for all the comments anyway and watch out for confusion regarding this record in future.

Auction due to close within 24 hours. Bids at £235 at present. Is this a bootleg dressed up to fool bidders or an original issue at a bargain price?

A questionable act. Most records have no resale value. Huge collections take up valuable space and are time consuming to manage. Better to collect selectively and enjoy the music. Nothing wrong in bulk buying if there’s a chance of finding something special. To buy up all the records in the world is mission impossible and ultimately a colossal waste of time and money.

Part 3 now added to YouTube for our perusal. Russ talks about the links between Motown and the Casino mentioning the thousands of tracks never released. He also mentions the hundreds of records he hasn’t yet played - I would happily watch a video of him flicking through a box of these sounds. Having been to the Arcade several times and the Casino Cafe twice, I would say it’s worth going out of your way to visit. Anyway, compulsive viewing for the nostalgic Wigan goer and an honest overview that answers a few questions.

Well spotted. A valid observation and criticism. Perhaps Russ was pushing for a more organised distribution system with Soussan at the source? Alternatively, the scourge of emidiscs was problematical enough to warrant criticism as DJ exclusives were being exposed. At the time though, most of us collectors didn’t mind as it was fine to have the best sounds in any format ie UK issue, US import, Soussan latest release etc. Maybe Russ was concerned that DJ’s were being deceived by some bootlegs and spinning them instead of originals? I was more concerned that King Richard described the Casino as a Disco Venue...

Most certainly. Richard gets all the plaudits whilst Russ has waited in the wings. About time Russ spoke out in public. He speaks modestly and truthfully, clarifying some of the twaddle you read on here. Sure, he didn’t follow the career path of Richard or Kev, but giving credit when it’s due, Russ put Wigan Casino on the map and helped many of us get to where we are today. Thanks for posting.

Just a bit Mike. Just got off a plane. Only one of two legs working... Had to skip the surf in Hawaii but made up for this shopping in Detroit. You know me, I can’t post clips so I leave it to the experts.

A few disappoinments here methinks. Sheppards usually goes for more. Bobby Treetop price about fair given it is a scarcity rather than a rarity.

Two interviews now up on YouTube. Russ being interviewed by Ralph. Really interesting, factual and well worth listening to. Russ comes across really well and finally informs the doubters of what really happened at the start and finish of the Casino years.

Hi Gilly. Put me down for a signed hardback copy.

Look at Popsike or Collectors Frenzy databases - see what recent sales fetched. Put the best records on Soul Source for the connoisseurs at set sale prices. Monitor the lists of main dealers and try to undercut them for a quick sale. Please don’t put the highest price on them as collectors get fed up of being ripped off. Hope this helps.