Frankie Crocker

Dobber sums up the situation nicely. There are some nice records portrayed but they go up and up in price then vanish to reappear again at a later date. The auction is a sealed bid one so only the seller knows what is actually going on. Some of the records are advertised a few days after what John and Tim have also put up for auction. The minimum bids and finishing values are often too high so nobody can really snag a bargain. I would be very interested to learn of any auction winnings on Pat’s site…

Well done Peter for reviving the topic.I saw a copy at the Pasadena Flea Market about 30 years ago. I didn’t sample it or buy it, but the occasion stuck in my head filed under ‘Records I Stupidly Passed Over In A Hurry’. I snagged one on eBay a few years ago, just VG condition and nothing really to commend it sound-wise, but still part of folklore as it was the sort of record piloted by go-ahead DJ’s back in the day.

Spot on Chalky. Nick’s contribution has certainly elucidated matters. The Archer discography early in the thread is hopelessly out of date. As it now looks like Mack Evans mastered the Archer and missing-Archer issues, collectors can be confident they own bona fide originals. The few fortunate owners of an Archer stamped issue can be satisfied their copies came off the machine used, probably as part of a small sample, maybe even to round up the number of white demos done QED. Since this thread was started, some collectors have put their missing-Archer stamp copies up for sale, cashing in as it were…my advice would be to keep these in the absence of any Archer stamped issues coming up for sale. As it was myself who contended that Eddie Parker may well have been pressed in Nashville, I am content to dismiss this notion on the basis of what Nick has said.

Eddie Parker was revived after the Torch era - it was huge at Wigan. The small uneven Archer stamped release was bootlegged for the Wigan masses. By then, word was out that originals had a large even Archer stamp. True, back in the day, most of us unthinkingly ignored matrix markings to just acquire the sound. There’s enough info in this thread now to set the record straight and keep the door open for additions.

Thanks for further clarification Rob. Keith Rylatt in his Groovesville USA book noted that the Ashford record was a ‘local hit’ in Detroit but the signs are that it did not sell in large quantities. Your reference to pressing plants at Christmas makes a lot of sense. Archer being a small outfit could easily cater for Jack Ashford’s white demo request prior to Christmas - this rarity produced largely for Detroit and Michigan outlets was probably pressed up in a quantity of 100 - 200 records. The bulk press of perhaps a few thousand probably happened in January 1969 judging from the earliest dates hand written on sales reps’ samples. Most importantly, Christmas could be the main reason for the legendary’ second issue’ assertion that has been presented to collectors for 50 years. Given the copyright date for ‘Love You Baby’ is 14th October 1968, Archer probably pressed the initial run in November or December, allowing for the preparatory work to be done in Nashville.

Your two contributions above Nick are cogently argued to the point that I’m coming around to the view that Archer pressed all the Eddie Parker records, probably in two phases. You know way more about Archer than I do so it seems pressing variations could well have occurred there. As mentioned above, the Tomangoe’s on Washpan would not need an Archer stamp as it already had Nashville Matrix in the runout. If indeed all copies of Eddie Parker with the tiny WME etching were pressed at the Archer plant, this would require a re-evaluation of prices for stamped and non-stamped varieties. The story may well boil down to a short press run of white demos plus a few issue samples pressed on one machine with an Archer stamp and a slightly later bulk pressing of issues on another machine without an Archer stamp. Jack Ashford had great confidence in Eddie Parker and his own label so it’s not surprising he used distributors in Detroit and Chicago. I suspect Nashville played a part in the distribution of the record which has turned up in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Virginia - I’m not convinced sales reps would necessarily travel so far from Detroit and Chicago.

Thanks for this Rob. Are you saying for sure that Ashford was a customer of Southern Plastics? Are we saying Jack Ashford placed orders with SP or was the Ashford record pressed up? Yes, we’re talking a ‘small fry’ order here, probably in the low thousands at a best guess. At present, I’m surmising SP pressed the bulk order of Eddie Parker based on the fact the factory was over the road from the Nashville Matrix plating facility - pure conjecture for sure but logically geographically. The distribution network in Nashville might have played a part in the widespread scattering of the record in the Mid-West and towards the east coast where samples turned up near Washington DC. We know now the Ashford record was distributed from Chicago and Detroit; we also know the approximate time it was pressed and distributed. Further documentation on distribution companies may well help us ascertain where the record was pressed and how many copies were made.

Picking up on some of the points raised Nick, Archer may have had no connection with Southern Plastics, but Jack Ashford was calling the shots - he opted for Warren McCleallan Evans and Nashville Matrix which was across the road from the Southern Plastics pressing factory. Archer as a small business could not handle large orders of the sort Motown wanted so they went to Southern Plastics - the capacity of Archer was limited and the presses there might not have been able to produce the quantity of records Jack Ashford wanted at a budget price. You mention multiple stampers - this could explain why bootlegs appeared at a later stage. The unauthorised Lorraine Chandler version on Black Magic could possibly have come from one of the multiple stampers that Simon Soussan accessed? The more I think about it, the mystery of various/missingArcher stamps is definitely worth digging into. I don’t yet have a first press Eddie Parker to study in detail and compare with the WME copies I have (and a small uneven Archer stamped bootleg). Maybe one day someone will confirm where the Ashford records were pressed - as things stand, it could be one or two plants depending on the numbers pressed up, but most importantly, the WME copies are original USA late 68/early 69 records whether they have an Archer stamp not.

Thanks again for adding to the thread Nick. I’m not able to dig out my Archer stamped records at short notice but will endeavour to do so in the months ahead. If you read back over page 1 of the thread, you will see that Warren McCleallan Evans scribed the matrix number on the lacquer in a Nashville studio - as he did this for Archer, the number 95 was included. Nashville matrix made the metal plates to press the records but we do not know how many were made - normally there is only one lacquer but there could be 2, 4, 6, 8 etc master discs depending on pressing plant requirements. One ponderable is did some of the master discs go to Southern Plastics or another pressing plant QED? Some of the master discs went to the Archer plant in Detroit where the presses added the raised Archer stamp to the Ashford record. Maybe operations at Archer were not as high quality as I suspected so it may well be that every single copy of Eddie Parker was pressed at Archer, some with a company stamp and many more without. If so, why have record collectors far more knowledgable and experienced than myself differentiated between the two variations classed as definite original and second issue for 50 years? Going forward then, lucky owners of Eddie Parker with the tiny WME etching may well possess a true original whether it was pressed at Archer or another plant.

The number of surviving copies on Popsike and seen for sale, suggest the number of records pressed was limited. Sure, some are in collections but we must be talking dozens here rather than hundreds or thousands. To some extent, this was a vanity project with one man, not a company, behind the release - Jack co-wrote the song, produced it and started his own label to release it. Pressing records was an expensive business, and as we well know, local labels generally didn’t prosper. Jack had massive confidence in Eddie Parker and being a shrewd businessman would have had a pilot run of demos done early on for radio DJ’s to provoke interest in what was to be the imminent bulk pressing; this is now looking more like a carefully planned and cleverly coordinated contract aimed at keeping costs down.

I tend to agree. As a ‘boutique’ pressing plant in family ownership, I bet they took massive pride in their workmanship. The Archer stamp itself is one of the best and most prominent on any record. The fact the firm still exists today and is operated by a third generation Archer tells you it has always been a high quality operation - I very much doubt they used worn or missing stampers on their presses.

True. Archer was really only a small plant, the first in Detroit and although inundated with work it seems, the records pressed were generally for limited distribution in finite numbers. The press machine that did the white demos and a limited edition of issues may have been used on another record before Jack decided on a bulk run, anything’s possible. The large, even, embossed Archer stamp on the Eddie Parker record is loud and clear showing no signs of wear.

Thanks for posting this Nick - you pretty much contend that all Eddie Parker issues have come from the Archer plant, some without the Archer stamp. I speculated on this earlier in the thread but dismissed the notion as highly implausible. True, Archer had multiple presses back in the late 60’s but I just don’t see this highly reputable outfit being short of an Archer stamp on a machine, especially when pressing a record for a key figure in the music business who owned the label. In any case, as the Eddie Parker bulk pressing was a ‘second issue’ or follow-up order, why not just use the press with the Archer stamp? I very much doubt Jack Ashford commissioned a second order specifically without the Archer stamp - I’ve tried phoning and emailing the Archer family for details but have had no success in this. It would be interesting to learn if other records left the Archer plant with and without the Archer stamp- this could confirm the different press machine stamper theory. Although I’m no expert when it comes to matrix numbers, I would have thought they were cut into the lacquer and would be on the masterpress(es). The 95 in the record runout is common to all Eddie Parker records regardless of where they were pressed - I would think that any record pressed in multiple locations would retain a common matrix number. If Southern Plastics did press the record, it would be easy to leave their code off, especially as it was an Archer commission for accounting purposes. It would be wonderful news to learn that all 60’s Eddie Parker issues, with and without the Archer stamp, came from the Archer plant. Maybe some day this could be confirmed, but I don’t think it’s as simple as that. In fact, if we accept that the Archer presses were different and had dodgy stampers, it’s only one step away from saying the records with the small uneven Archer stamp came from the Archer plant; these are universally regarded as 70’s bootlegs, but so far, no information has emerged on their origins. I accept that there’s still much to be learned about regarding the story of Eddie Parker. If further distributor documents turn up, that would shed more light on the discussion. In the meantime, all we can do is kick the topic around in the hope that someone around in the late 60’s can confirm the details we are speculating on.

Thanks for this really useful document. As you suggest, Eddie Parker was due for distribution in February 1969, a time that ties in with the hand written dates on the four copies featured in this thread. Summit distributed in the Chicago area, a market of considerable potential - this in itself is significant as it boosts the numbers of the record pressed in addition to the Detroit quota pressed by Archer and speculatively, the bulk of the pressing from Nashville which surely was distributed from that city. Of course it would be interesting to know if Summit distributed Archer stamped stock or WME stamped records! Anyone out there who bought Eddie Parker in Chicago during early 1969?

Another bonanza evening for John. Never seen an Empires for sale - wow