Paul-s

That's kind of non-sensical Ken, the forum is an area of open debate and I have often been attacked on here and never felt it necessary to send PM's because I stand by what I say and can articulate my point of view (whether its right or wrong). Sending keyboard warrior threats (badly written) is totally infantile and not a challenge at all because I'm not ten years old in a school playground. The link to unwritten rules of yesteryear here is a bit tenuous mate. If you can't say it here regarding an open topic, then just be quiet.

A good perspective, thanks.

Mate, this is good stuff and my approval does not count. I am genuinely trying to get a broad idea of what was understood as a way of being. Mostly because it seems to be becoming lost from what i'm seeing.

Yes. thats what im talking about. You knew and you know...

But within that no rules scenario, there were implicit understandings and if you, for instance danced with a pint in your hand, things were said for instance. If you went up to a woman on the dance floor and danced with her, invaded her space etc.....

Brilliant!

Thanks.......good points....

I have, due to some of the conversations on here, where i often some across a 'live and let live' or 'que sera' attitude, started to try to write down what i remember as the driving ethos, or unwritten rules of the scene. Perhaps rules is the wrong term, as it was stuff that was implicit, but anyway. Obviously, mine are based on my own experience and observations at a multitude of venues over the decades. So, is it possible to get some contributions (not que sera) that might outline a short retrospective manifesto (stuff that if you knew you knew) that the scene was initially built upon: particularly the space of allnighters, music, and dancing. They can be things that derive from a NO or a YES approach. I am trying to establish a base, a starting point, from which to look at what has changed or been forgotten, lost or re-imagined. I'll start off with a couple of badly worded attempts, but i really would like some input. Manifesto Music was the engine and newly discovered 60’s and 70’s 45’s were the fuel that kept it running. DJs were only celebrities if the music they played was recognised and danced to by the punters. There were no laurels to rest on. It was a part of the excitement to hear and dance to new 45's that were unknown to us. Thanks in advance. I am writing on this at the moment and welcome the views on this.....

Spot on....'costume drama re-enactment' full of acted out histrionics (teapots, hands on hearts, scrunched up faces indicating soul etc) to battered to death records. It's parody derived from a re-invented past. Because, it was not like that at all....I went to hear music I didn't know, we followed certain DJ's for certain tunes and longed to get on the dance floor to get into something new and exciting. Venues post-wigan unearthed incredible tunes and I never stopped longing for them. The music was exciting. If i have a 45 i love, i play it wisely and make sure i never batter its soul and reach by having it on repeat. The oldies night at Wigan has now become the week in week out night, on repeat, at many clubs and venues, and the parody fancy dress costume, soul on shirts instead of in hearts, and acting out, reminds me of a kind of 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' scenario.

Another individual who comes as never having been really on or 'in' the scene I have been on (takes all types) for and through the decades. If you were, you would get this debate. Your use of the word 'policing' with a dumb smiley emoji as the sum of your response just reeks of inadequacy in terms of any complex, informed, aware or soulful discussion. Also, you misuse the word frenzy....perhaps you misuse the word 'Northern Soul too, i wouldn't be surprised. I don't' have a world of soul, that would indicate that it stopped evolving and that i stopped listening and developing, I think you may have your own 'small' world of soul though, judging by the lack lustre comments. The qué Sera. comment exposes you for who you are and what your contribution signifies. The Northern Soul scene was never built on a qué Sera attitude. If you think it was, you were never in it. Finally, I guess you pulled that final thumb out from where its been stuck for decades, or have i misread that....

I just get sick of the flaccid, hackneyed 'live and let live' rhetoric. Its as lazy as teaching NS dancing online whilst wearing a T-shirt that announces you as the soulful product that is 'Northern Soul', and the reason the essence of many vernacular dance forms get hijacked and sold down the swanny only to become lost in reification by charlatans, and finally accepted as the 'real thing'. The actual visual memory of the 'real thing' finally erased. The scene was never live and let live, only amongst the true souls. Divs were always tolerated, but also mocked for what they were, tourists. BUT, they were never celebrated and proclaimed as authentic. 'Policed' is also a hackneyed word used to try to shut of any considered thought or discussion....like 'conspiracy theorist' (not differing opinion), 'anti-vax' (not pro-choice), misinformation , disinformation etc. All designed to silence debate. Also, Jesus has nothing to do with it, though i suspect many rush of to church that day after: but not in the way Clayton did (thats perhaps a bad analogy and not meant to suggest anything untoward).

Brilliant!

I don't ever remember these existing in the 70-90's ? Am i mistaken? But nowadays i see them in online films of events all the time: along with beer towels and Baggy trousers, non of which were ever really on the scene for very long and not all took to them either. I just watched a snippet of the Blackpool Casino anniversary event and it was awash with this kind of "wear it on your sleeve (or back, front , side)" signalling. Personally, i find it embarrassing to see and wear my soul on the inside. Is it some clever person making a decent buck? Interested in your thoughts on this?

Spot on!

Exactly. "Would you listen to an episode of Top of The Pops from 1978 every week? No you wouldn't so why do it with soul records?" Great analogy. Not only that, they dance the same routine every week, like 'Pans People' acting out a childish narrative with empty motifs/gestures: that now litter the internet as if this is authentic Northern Soul dancing, and in fact proclaiming that it is. It's beyond a parody and involves no digging, no listening and no commitment. The scene that they re-enact (as if it never moved on musically) was never static musically. I went each week, through the decades, to hear what was breaking and always did. Thats what made it exciting. Nowadays, its just generally unadventurous, uninspired and constantly murdering tunes through hammering them to death: when many were already hammered to death!

A low profile..are you joking. He is a total opportunist and actively seeks out projects and often fibs to get onboard. He contacts anywhere that mentions Wigan Casino and bans films from using a mock up of the original sign amongst other grasping acts. I know believe me. He re-invents what he actually did, and is a shameless self-promoter. I disagree about the scene and other venues. I travelled every week to several events, couple of nighters and a dayer for instance and its usually only the tribe that didn't need to travel who have no idea about these brilliant places. The scene was great and it wasn't only due to Wigan Casino. No one owes him a debt of graspitude, if not for him it would still have manifested in some way. Remember there were venues that came before, and soulful energy looking for a home. It didn't start or end with the Casino: thats just the myth that returnees, Russ and lazy producers want to promote... They need to reify the scene via that venue in order to cash in....its a recognisable product/motif and even more so nowadays as the same songs are hammered week in week out, the vests and bags revived and the songs acted out to demonstrate. "I was there". Anyway, thats our differing opinions and experiences and thats what the scene was and is about (so it should be). Its just that the lens that is always used in the mono-Winstanley-Wigan Casino experience and contribution: often deliberately, and petulantly, neglecting Richards contribution.

Yes, he ran a mobile disco and saw an opportunity....

Total rubbish and he was an organiser/DJ rather than out and about on the floor. His knowledge from that time is way off and he mysteriously seems to conveniently forget most of it....when it suits. He is the last person to go to on matters Wigan 1973-1981 (unless its about him of course). The reason all the documentary's are so boring and inaccurate, and repetitive, are because of his limited knowledge of what 'actually' went on and his desire to keep himself at the head of the dining (out) table. His recollection that he didn't notice much drug activity at the Casino (I have interviewed him) is either a confirmation that he was not really connected to the atmosphere and floor at the Casino: you didn't have to consume to know(tice), or that, like Wigan Council, he wants to clean up the image to make it more saleable. His knowledge of records that were played (by anyone else but himself) is awful and I have witnessed that first hand too. At this time it's very appropriate to disrespect the lies and misinformed reification of a period that was representative of a healthy and vibrant Northern Soul scene.....the Wigan-centric lens is largely due to Winstanley's tireless self-promotion since the last night(s). He never was a punter after that and has no interest in soul music whatsoever!. As others have mentioned, plenty of other clubs at the time were better, as good and most definitely major contributors to the scenes healthy state.

Exaactly!

Oh dear......on and on and on.... The talentless musician and narcissist Bob Geldof has been dining out on Live Aid (ironically an event to raise money for the starving poor) for nearly 4 decades. Whereas the talentless/soulless DJ and narcissist (fill in the blanks) R--- --N------- has been dining out on Wigan Casino (ironically a place that was full of soul) for over 4 decades.

What?

Yes, i recognise that Richard is a seminal figure, and i went to the Ritz a lot. It's just the repetition of the same old stuff when its BBC curated. Lets see what Richard plays and if hew resists that.

The same flaccid presentation of decades of music, venues and changes. Compiled by lazy producers, using the same hackneyed leitmotifs and all chaperoned by two BBC faces who know very little about their subject and who i don't remember seeing much through those decades. Of course the general punter (returnee) will love this Celeb(ration) and infantilisation of the scenes history. "In the country of the blind the one eyed Maconie is king". It seems the BBC have smelt a buck or two here and, in fact, i can see how now is the time for them to hijack Northern Soul in a more effective manner than previously (when they were met with resistance) because they now (more than ever) primarily aim at an audience of pensioners. The younger generation refuse to pay the license because of the innocuous and manicured content on offer. Yes, 3 clubs don't make no scene or represent its history, and people have mentioned the many that deserve a mention/listen. It is, with good intent, and research ,and decent producer, very easy to do this and represent one hell of a brilliant and exciting montage of music that has emerged from many large and small, but highly significant, clubs over the decades. The problem is when they call someone like Binstanley, or even Richard, these individuals were never at most of the clubs post-Wigan and have not a clue about what went on, or the thousands of brilliant tunes that emerged, after they left. The 100 Club is a slight improvement and at least Ady (i'm assuming its him compiling?) went out and about as a punter too. But i can see this being a lot of Top 500 stuff (The Torch, Twisted Wheel and Wigan, as someone mentioned, crossed over musically). The Signatures.....Jeez...no comment. The Prom(enaders) will adore it and dance their carpets raw, I suppose. Maybe some will gather and create an allnighter event based around the radio, film their soulfulness and then post all over social media. But for sure, a new sub-genre is fast emerging: 'BBC Northern Stroll Music'

I recently say a Northern Soul night advertised as 'Digital Only'. My small soul brain could not quite compute. Does this mean vinyl has/is being eradicated from Northern Soul events? Thanks in advance for explaining this one.