Chalky

If you can get the Book LA Vocal Groups 1945-1965 you should, it a fantastic read. Written by Steve Propes and Galen Gart. Some superb photos of many of the LA vocal groups of the time. Anyway attached are scans of the pages relevant to the Incredibles, don't think you will find anything better out there. Hope you can read it as I don't want to have to type it all out

Hi Gilly, hope you and Nicola are well. I've been in contact with Hadley a few times since you pointed me in his direction He told me about this cd a couple of years ago......so its been a while coming. Be interesting to see if there are is any other information as he only knew the lead James Mitchell name, he couldn't remember the others. Hadley Murrell did confirm he wasn't in the group. The backing group was the JBJ's from San Francisco. Hadley was the owner of Wind Hit and the producer of the tracks. All four were airmen based at Luke air force base. All now dead. What is interesting is in the photo above there are five in the photo, Hadley said to me there were four in the group and I've photo somewhere with just four Looks a cracking cd and will definitely be on my shopping list come April.

I would agree none crossover IMO but William Cummings is as you say out and out Northern, so is the Ralph Graham I've seen mentioned. Off top of me head without much thought my ultimate would probably be Chuck Cockerham - Have I Got A Right. Still got a tape or two of yours Cliff in the garage from the mid 80's with this on.

I was under the impression Dish a Tune/Charlie Amos Hunter owned the rights having bought them from Biggs? Biggs later buying them back?? I'll have to go and read the story again. I thought there was a date for the re-issue or at least a clue with the time Biggs lost ownership?

Dave Flynn has a copy for sale.

Apparently if I remember the story correctly the owners of Shiptown lost ownership for some time and the new owners put out the remix, the one shown in the scan. The original definately slower and the second has added brass (I think)....it has some added instruments. The one on the Ol Virginia is the second release. John Smith done an extensive story on the RSF.

great record but shouldn't really be any more than £10/£15 for the issue/inst.

he was probably in one of the splinter Drifters group, don't think he was an original drifter or one of the other line-ups who was with Atlantic? They did rotate a little and once had the whole group sacked. There was a court case a while back regarding who had the rights to the name, dunno how it went. There's quite a few who can claim to be a member of the drifters, whether it was one of the official line-ups or one of the others.

think this will do... https://www.tower.com/surf/explore/nav_exp/nav_2_browse.cfm?div_id=2&label_facet=Westside%20Records%20%28UK%29&cat102=4511

cheers Brett, couldn't remember where it came from or who actually posted it originally on KTF, it would have been back in the late 90's probably.

oops

It is probably how I am reading it. Records like that are played though, Mick H plays his fair share of funky stuff, so does Karl Heard and others. Trouble is records like the Crow aren't to everyone's taste, not back then and they won't be today.

What was the issue of Voices that Rod wrote the article about crossover?

I've read it.....I don't know anyone that hasn't accepted them as oldies, where has it been said they aren't, they are died in the wool oldies, not exactly underplayed either records like the Crow, maybe some have moved on to something else after all these years.

I've seen other stuff from the area, Lebanese, Iranian before on ebay, nothing as rare as this though.

I remember the nights at Parkers, great nights they were too. But I certainly remember the term crossover from the mid 80's...Thorne etc. Still think the term no longer means what it did and refers to a style of record now and the fact that many a dealer has cottoned on to it to shift records they had no label for. Agree with Dave T that it shouldn't be pigeon holed but at the end of the day genres/titles have been around for decades and can't see them disappearing.

I've no wish to get into an arguement James, they lead no where but he only person that dictates what a DJ plays at Lifeline is the DJ himself so please stop insinuating that Lifeline shackles a DJ's playlist. records from across the soul spectrum have and still do get an airing. If Butch or any other Dj does not wish to play a particular record than that is the choice of the DJ, certainly not the promoters or the promotion which you constantly keep having sly digs at. And who has said that they cannot accept the Crow, Country Road aren't NS oldies? I don't recall reading anything anywhere? Anyway lets try and keep this on topic.

Terms and Definitions....posted on KTF many moons ago and I've reposted on here several times. Some of it might be of use to some... These are terms and definitions that are common and not so common to the record collecting and record selling community. Styrene (properly, Polystyrene). Hard, relatively inflexible plastic used to press records, mainly 7-inch singles, mainly using the Injection Moulding process. The material is heated to a liquid form and is then squirted or injected into the closed stampers in the press. This requires that the labels be either glued or painted on after the record leaves the press. The cost savings to the manufacturer comes from the extended life of the stampers because of the lack of a heating cycle to the stampers. The material can also be reused without noticeable change to its moulding properties. Styrene records will therefore usually have very quiet surfaces when found in an UNPLAYED Mint condition, but unfortunately they will wear to a noisy condition rapidly, especially if played with a bad stylus or an improperly tracking tone arm. They also are more prone to Cue Burn. The Columbia Records Pittman, New Jersey pressing plant was once the major source of Injection Moulded Styrene pressings, and pressings from this plant are found on MANY small labels. Look for the glued-on labels. Painted-on labels can be found on records from the Amy/Bell/Mala group. Vinyl (properly Polyvinyl Chloride). Relatively flexible material used since the early 1930s to make non-breakable records. Its fumes are an acknowledged carcinogen, so don't breathe in deeply when you have your next holy burning of Beatles or back-masked devil-worship records. :-) Usually pressed by Compression Moulding which allows the label to be an integral part of the pressing itself. This process also requires that there be extra material which spills out the sides of the press, therefore this extra material is routinely ground up and re-used. Because vinyl does not re-heat and re-cool to a smooth, glossy surface, the excessive use of re-grind mixed in with Virgin Vinyl can account for the inherently noisy surface of even unplayed Mint examples of the cheap pressings that some record companies used. Noise can be seen AND HEARD by looking at and/or playing the un-grooved surface of the lead-in and lead-out areas. If this area looks or sounds grainy, then the grooves will also have some of this grainy background sound. The stampers used for the compression moulding process will start to break down after only 1,000 pressings because they are forced to expand and contract when heated by steam at the start of the pressing cycle and then cooled to solidify the record. Some companies routinely overused their stampers for their pop record series. Dynaflex. Ultra-thin pressings of high-grade Virgin Vinyl introduced by RCA Victor in late 1969. Although considered crap by most collectors because they do not seem flat when held, they actually have much quieter surfaces then most of the popular records pressed by RCA in the mid-to-late-1960s due to the extraordinarily high percentage of Re-grind Vinyl used in all but it's Red Seal, Vintage Series, and Original Cast pressings. Dynaflex was also less prone to breakage and permanent warp-age in shipment. Its lighter weight reduced shipping costs and allowed for the use of a higher grade of Vinyl because less material was required. They were supposed to lie flat on the turntable due to their own weight, but RCA forgot that many people had changers with 8-inch turntables! Dynagroove. Record cutting system introduced by RCA Victor in 1962 that supposedly reduced tracking distortion by computer controlling cutting characteristics to overcome the imagined faults of playback equipment. Considered a disaster by everyone except the New York Times writer Hans Fantel who wrote the blurb inserted in all of the early pressings, it brought the golden age of RCA Victor Living Stereo to a screeching halt. Because there is a possibility that this system was used on later re-masterings of the early Living Stereo records, collectors try to obtain only early pressings of these masterpieces--usually called Shaded Dogs. The words Stereo-Orthophonic are on the record label and sometimes the cover of the good Living Stereo albums. Acetate/Lacquer Is usually a reference cut that is made on ultra high-grade methyl cellulose sprayed onto thick aluminium discs. Reference acetates are primarily to make certain the record will sound somewhat like the tape. Often they are also made to allow a club or radio disc-jockey to play the music on turntables before it has been pressed as a normal record. Acetate is a misnomer. It is actually a Lacquer, but since so many people call these acetates, both will be used here. Alternate take At a recording session more than one take (recorded version) may be kept on file for future use. What is considered the best take at the time is usually used for the commercial release. Sometimes a different take is used for a compilation album or in really rare cases the first recording that was issued is pulled and an alternate take from the same session is used. When this happens a lot of people will think there is something different about that song. This was done with a 50s record from Whirling Disc records. It was Whirling Disc 107 and the songs were I Really Love You/What Do You Do by The Channels. After a couple of months in release, Bobby Robinson (the owner) for whatever reason, used two different takes (one for each side) from the same session for subsequent releases. Anyone that has heard both records (I have both) can tell the difference between the two in a minute. The most famous of all is the Bob Dylan, Positively 4th Street 45 on Columbia. For some reason, some copies of the commercial 45 were issued with a version of Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window instead of Positively 4th Street The funny thing is that Dylan's next release on Columbia Can you please crawl out your window was a different take than the mistake on Positively.... Test pressing A test pressing is sent back to the cutting engineer, producer and sometimes the performer, to confirm that the pressings will sound as intended. Most TP's are really just early pressings, frequently without artwork of any kind, and they are serviced to whoever as early promo's. In many cases this was done to rush the record out to radio stations to try and get immediate airplay before the complete label could be finished. Original Label This refers to the company that first issued a certain record. A lot of times small labels will have a record that will become very popular and they cannot meet the sales demand. In a lot of cases the master is sold or leased to a larger record company and the record is released on the larger company's own label. Also look at the small label examples under Reissue. All of these fall under Original label. First Pressing The way the record first came out on a certain label. Examples: The first pressing of Sixty Minute Man by the Dominoes came out on Gold top Federal. The first pressing of Church Bells May Ring by the Willows came out as Church Bells Are Ringing and all that was changed a few weeks later was the title. The label design and color remained the same. Reissue There are several types of reissues. There is the budget reissue. This falls into the K-tell, design, forum and etc labels. These are discount labels that got the permission to use the original master to issue songs (usually hits) later as discount compilations. Then there is the reissue that is just a later issue that isn't a budget item. Labels that can fit here are: Collectibles, Eric, Rhino and etc. And then there is the other type reissue. A record that was originally pressed on a small label (see Original label above) and then was picked up by a major or by a big independent. Examples: Question Mark; The Mysterians--96 Tears. First recorded for Pa-go-go. It was picked up by Cameo/Parkway and reissued on Cameo. At The Hop, Danny and the Juniors--original on Singular with a count-off intro. It was then picked up by ABC Paramount and the intro was deleted. Short Shorts, the Royal Teens--original on Power but the hit was on ABC Paramount after ABC picked it up from Power and reissued it on their own label. The Motley Crue's first album originally came out on Leather and then was picked up and reissued on Elektra. Re-release A record that was out of print for a certain period of time and the original company decides to put it back into their catalog of available items. Re-number Taking a currently available record and re-numbering it. Re-recording A song that was originally recorded by an artist for one label and then was re-recorded and issued later by another label (Sometimes the original label will record the same song by the artist years later). Examples: Roy Orbison and the Teen Kings. Ooby Dooby--originally recorded for Je-wel records and was later re-recorded and issued on Sun. Penguins--Earth Angel (Will You Be Mine)--Originally recorded by the Penguins and released by Dootone records. Re-recorded and issued later on Mercury. Revision/RE To RCA Victor it means that something was revised, a credit was changed, the layout of the cover was changed, something simple like that. Sometimes the first pressings of the record has an RE. They did their changes even before issuing and felt it important enough to note it. You see things like this in the RCA files. This is the meaning of RE on the back of some of the RCA albums. Cover The same song issued by another artist at about the same time as the first record. This was done to cover up or take away sales from the first record. Timeliness was important in issuing cover records. Many times in the 50s the cover record was by a white artist covering a song by a black artist or black group. If the white artist or group was successful, the black artists record either died, or did not sell very well outside R & B circles. Examples: are: Sh-boom The Chords covered by the Crew-Cuts. The Crew-Cuts far outsold The Chords. Wheel Of Fortune by the Cardinals was covered by Kay Starr. Starr far outsold the Cardinals. Remake--A song done later-on by another artist. This was not timely enough to be called a cover record. Examples: Hound Dog Big Mama Thornton remade a few years later by Elvis. The Train Kept a-Rollin', orignally by Tiny Bradshaw. Remade a few years later by the Rock'n Roll Trio. Remade again in the mid 60s by The Yardbirds. Louie Louie Richard Berry in the mid 50s. Remade by the Kingsmen in the early 60s and then by 9 million other artists. Master Numbers/Matrix Numbers. These terms (interchangeable) are used for the side identification number for each side of a record. It is usually printed on the label and is also in the dead wax of a record. I think it was also the catalog number given to each recorded song of a record label. RCA, Columbia and Epic had special alphabetical prefixes for their master numbers. Dated master numbers. Some labels for a time put a date at the beginning of their master numbers. This would show the releases for that year. The next year would start at the bottom of the numbering sequence. Labels that did this were: VJ, Tollie, M-G-M and Cub. RCA also did this from the late 40 to the early 60s. They used a letter and a number to denote the date. D8 would be 1948; E4 was 1954. In 1956 they changed again with F being 1956, G being 1957 and H being 1958. And they skipped I for 1959. Machine Stamped A lot of labels used perfect die cut letters to put the master numbers and pressing numbers in the dead wax of their records. This is different than the hand written numbers that some companies used. In a lot of cases this can be used to a certain degree of certainty in determining a counterfeit with U. S. pressings. Some companies that had machine stamped master numbers were: RCA, Decca, Coral, Brunswick, Capitol. Columbia, Liberty, Laurie and Rust. Atlantic had the numbers usually hand written, but somewhere in the dead wax had AT---machine stamped, but once in awhile it was handwritten. Lead-in groove. This is the silent area at the beginning of a record. Cue-up area This is the area where a disc jockey cues up the record so that the music will start as soon as he starts the turntable. With the stylus on the record the disc jockey moves the record back and forth over the same area to get the desired start-up point. Cueing scratch/Cue burn A common phenomenon with 45s that were cued-up by disc jockeys. In most cases there is either a hiss or a loss of fidelity in the first few revolutions of the record. Dead Wax--Also known as the trail-off groove and lead-out area. Also known as the run-off area. The area between the end of the recording and the label. Delta number In July of 1954 an independent pressing plant in Los Angeles, called Monarch Records started putting a Delta (triangle) with a number next to it in the dead wax of each record that they pressed. This is the way that they kept track of the order of items pressed. Each side had it's own Delta number. Repaired Seam In a lot of cases the edge seam on album covers, EP covers and picture sleeves become split. This is a designation to show that this has been repaired. Sometimes this is done by gluing the ends together and sometimes tape is used to close the split. Colored wax (this is actually colored vinyl) Several companies in the early 50s used color vinyl on some of their 45 issues. These are normally a lot rarer and more sought after than the normal black vinyl release. Some examples: King--Blueish green for its R&B series, and red vinylfor its maroon label country series. Federal--Same blueish green vinyl as King Chance--Red vinyl Vee Jay--Red vinyl Gotham--Pink vinyl Jubilee--Red vinyl Imperial--purple vinyl And the most famous of the 60s labels to issue white label promos on colored wax. Columbia with the following known colors: Red vinyl, green vinyl, blue vinyl, yellow vinyl and purple vinyl. Timing strip This is usually found glued to the front of promo copies of albums. This shows the song titles and playing times for each cut on the album. These can take up a small space at the bottom of an album or can take up to half of the album cover at the bottom. Gatefold--An album cover, EP cover or Picture sleeve that opens up like a gate. Sometimes has records that fit in both open ends. Vinyl Junkie A record collector that has the collecting fever so bad that nothing else really matters. He/she plans his/her vacations around looking for records. He/she spends his/her weekends going to the usual swap meets, garage sales and record meets. He/she spends hours on the phone and internet with fellow record collectors. Lunched A term used by the old time R & B collectors to denote a record that is so beat up that it has no redeeming value. This came from seeing a record that was so trashed that you thought somebody tried eating it for lunch. Break-in record A record that usually has a story line and has a lot of segments of different records mixed in. In most cases the records used are current of that time period. This form was first popularlized by Bill Buchanan and Dicke Goodman otherwise known as Buchanan and Goodman. Answer record A record that is usually a response to another record, usually a hit. This is usually done by a different artist, not by the original artist. Examples: Duke of Earl, Duchess of Earl, Mother in-law---Son in-law Oh Carol;Oh Neil,A Boy Named Sue;A Girl Named Johnny Cash and so on. Kiddie Record These were usually records that were put out for children by the big labels. In the early 50s they came out in both 45 and 78 form. RCA had the Little Nipper Series. Decca had theChildren's Series and Capitol had the Bozo Approved series and the Record Reader series where you followed along in a booklet attached between the covers, and read along while the record played. RCA also had versions of this. Bootleg (Bootleg is also incorrectly and improperly used as a synonym of counterfeit and reproduction). An illegal pressing of a record that was recorded at a concert and does not have the band or record company's permission to do so. Can also be used to describe illegally pressed music from a company's vaults that was acquired without the record company's permission. The term was also used with 50s and 60s 45 rpm collectors as exact reproduction and forgery. Counterfeit Also known as bootleg, also known as a repro--(Bootleg and Repro are commonly used but wrongly used terms)This is a record that was illegally remade to look and sound like the original issue. This is usually done by making a tape of a regular pressing of an original copy of one of the records and then pressing this up on vinyl. Most of these types are made up to look exactly like the original with the same artwork and label design. The counterfeiter does not show any distinction between his forgery and the original (Once in awhile the bootlegger will make a subtle change to the label to let collectors know his record is in fact a counterfeit--Henry Mariano used to scratch in the current year into the deadwax of his counterfeits). Repro Reproduction--Same as Counterfeit. An exact copy of a record done without permission of the original record company or without permission of the owner of the master recording. Radio Spots Promotional Adverstising records that went to radio stations. These were mainly records that had a few one minute (or so) spots plugging a product or even a current movie. Studio Tracks Film or cast music which has been re-recorded [i. e. not an original soundtrack taken directly from the film/cast, even if featuring the same cast, musicians or orchestra

James, your living up to your name again, causing trouble :-) ....What I'm trying to say (although not very easy on the iPhone) is that an hour of crossover is out of place at a predominately northern soul all-nighter, which most allnighters are. You go to an allnighter and see how busy the floor is to an hour of midtempo crossover? I'm not saying crossover dj's are crap either and don't recall writing words to that effect either. I collect and love crossover and have always listened to all types of soul, but at a venue the type of promotion has to be taken into account. A good dj should be able to play all types and keep everyone happy with music the ordinary punters can dance too, after all that is what they go for. What I wad trying to say is that I have seen on quite a few occasions a promoter program a dj who plays nothing but crossover to a largly empty dancefloor, maybe half a dozen records getting a decent reaction. It's like booking rare upfront dj to play all his unknowns at an oldies night, he ain't going to go down very well. You are right I am involved with an allnighter that promotes crossover amongst the 60s etc but you don't hear an hour of crossover, it's all a question of getting the balance right.

think the problems arise when "crossover" dj's are programed into a predominaty northern night/allnighter, that's where the empty dancefloors can often happen and therefore some can't stick to what they like. The venues you mention are crossover, 70's and modern soul nights so you are hardly going to get empty dancefloors and complaints from 60's diehards. As others quite rightly said get over to the crossover Friday topic for a better understanding. That will explain the genre far better than words on this topic.

I do agree with you Jock about most of what you say but not everything the dj's play is crossover but 70s dance music, there is a difference IMO yet everyone these days seems to class everything 70s as crossover. I've heard some great sets, especially from the likes of Andy Whitmore, Steve G, Dave Rippoles to full dancefloors but they do program plenty of records of the right tempo which I wouldn't necessarily class as crossover. I've also heard some dj's play an hour of plodders to an empty dancefloor, often quality crossover but not what you want at an allnighter. As you say venues like Soul Essence is a different experience, those that go there go for crossover, 70s dance and modern.

why didn't you say that then in the first place Wouldn't be the first time a home made label has been used to sell a record. The buyer knows all the info, its there in black and white so if anyone bids more than the cost of a carver then more fool them. The sound file is readily available for free over the internet and a carver/acetate will knock you back around 20 quid.

if I was promoting Terry I wouldn't allow an hour of crossover. As good as much of it is most you can't dance too and all you see is an almost empty floor. Also think the term is far removed from what it originally meant, it now relates more to a style rather than the era of the recording it originally related too.

He clearly states what it is.