Roburt

There's a lot of 'selective memories' on here ... and thats the folk who were actually around on the scene back in the mid to late 60's ...... Soul was the in music back then, so around 50% of those that went to soul clubs were only there coz it was the place to be (they soon moved on when soul wasn't the flavour of the day). Of the rest; I'd say 40% didn't collect vinyl at all, so they had no idea what label a 45 had been issued on & whether it was OV or not (BTW, OV was a term I NEVER heard used once in the 60's). Don't forget, back then, you went to a soul club to pull birds .... around 50% of those who attended were female and hardly any of the ladies had the slightest interest in the actual records (aside from wanting to dance to them). So that leaves about 10% at most who even cared about the records themselves or what label's particular tracks were on. So, yes, like any guy who actually wanted the records for themselves back then; I spent many hours in record shops, 2nd hand shops, sending for set-sale & auction lists & ordering records that I found on those. I bought from Soul City Record Shop (visiting at times or by mail order) & even sent off to Randy's Record Shop in Gallatin Tennessee and bought stuff from them (their small catalogues were a great source of info on non UK released 45's by artists of interest to me). ... AS FOR .... named DJ's back then ... apart from Jimmy Saville, Johnny Walker, Emperor Rosko & the like, I didn't know of any (unless Owlin Robin from the Nite Owl counts and I'm sure he doesn't). You could hear all the soul tracks on pirate radio & most people just taped the ones they liked off the radio. I attended allniters in the north & midlands every week from early 67 right through to 69 and I never knew any DJ's names (wasn't interested in who they were as long as they told me what the last record was when I was interested). I knew of Pete Stringfellow, DJ at the Mojo, but only because he owned the club, booked the acts, DJ'ed, chatted with me on a regular basis and chased all the best looking girls in the club ... so he don't count as just a big name DJ. I knew of Owlin Robin from the Nite Owl but only coz I attended the niters there for 6 months and his name was on the club's ad every week. I attended the Wheel every week from the 14th October 67 (Jnr Walker live) thru to summer 68 (they didn't book good US acts in the summer months as everyone went off to Yarmouth or Newquay instead of going to Mancaster). In all that time, I had no idea at all who Roger Eagle was (though I must have asked him at least twice every Sat night what the last record had been). So no 'big name DJs' spinning at niters back then. ........... now to the 45's ................ OV was unheard of .... we were so desperate to get the big sounds, we would have had them on EMI's or boots if they had been available ... so for a big track like Gene Chandler's "Nothing Can Stop Me" we were quite happy to have it (& DJ with it) on a US Constellation 45 (from 1965) but there were none around in quantity. We'd have had it (& played it) off the US Brunswick LP ('The Girl Don't Care' -- 1968), on the Stateside 45 demo or issue that was known (1965 release but hard as hell to find back then) or on a Soul City 45 (a summer 68 release that made the UK pop charts). If I had been DJing back then (which I did on occasions) & had played my G.Ch. on Soul City and someone had come up to me & said .. "That's not OV, you can't play that" ... I'd have thought he was a nutter even though anyone could have walked into any high street record shop and purchased a copy of the Soul City 45. We bought copies of Bunny Sigler's "Let The Good Times Roll" on French EMI coz you could get them from high street record shops and that was a lot easier than spending hours in 2nd hand shops looking for an original UK or US version. When we got the French 45, we DJ'ed with it no problem. So attitudes back then were very different from today's OVO malarky, people were allowed to go out to a soul club just to have a good time and dancers just danced but didn't think twice about whether they were allowed to get stuck in just coz a track wasn't being played off OV.

............. the uk soul scene is slowly watered down by the just want to have fun ......... Kinell, you mean people are attending soul nites just coz they enjoy having a good time with their mates ......... .... the Soul Poice will have to put a stop to that or we don't know what it could lead to !!!

Re-issues were starting to make an appearance back then (from 68 onwards). As soon as the Soul City label had kicked off & they had a hit with the Gene chandler 45, most labels started putting out reissues -- Motown, Stateside, Atlantic, London, President and more. Soul City record shop (which we bought from by mail order) started out in 66 and DG started the record label in 68 No one then turned up their noses at a Soul City 45 being played (it didn't even occur to us that having the 'original' UK or US issue was much better than having the Soul City version). Getting US 45's was very difficult but you had to go that way if the UK 45 had been deleted and the track was in big demand, but the routes / systems by which you got US 45's were far from straightforward, I seem to recall EMI importing French copies of Bunny Sigler to sell thru main street record shops to meet the demand here as we didn't have the means to source such 45's ourselves. PLUS ... don't forget that many back then liked soul purely coz it was the 'in music' at that time. They attended clubs like the Mojo / Wheel coz they were the places to be 'seen'. By 1970, many had moved onto UK blues / rock groups (the likes of Jimi Hendrix coming over here & hitting big sparked a big change in the scene) and lots were starting to refer to 'our music' as Tamla-Toytown and were slagging it off all the time.

Back then many on the scene weren't into records at all (though I always collected). What mattered then was what clothes you wore, did you do the latest dance, did you have a scooter, did you go to the right clubs & attend live shows that featured the 'right acts'. The most important factor in the decision to travel to a niter in the early days was who was on live. In most towns, you couldn't get to see a US based act but had to make do with the local soul covers groups -- it was even hard to get to see the likes of Jimmy James, Geno, Alan Bown, Zoot Money, Herbie Goins, Sonny Childe, etc in a town venue as they were so in demand (across the UK & Europe) that they could pick & chose the gigs they took. To see Ike & Tina, Ben E King, Edwin, Jnr Walker, Alvin Cash, Billy Stewart, Oscar Toney, etc you had to travel to a big city & attend a club venue there. The allniter's simply made it easier to do this, travelling over there on a late train / bus and then back home on the 1st train / bus the next day. Of course, an 'allniter in-crowd' soon built up in each town & these were the guys that most on the scene back then 'looked-up to'. So, many (most) didn't collect records and were more than happy having all their sounds on tape / cassette (the 60's equiv of CD's / mp3's).

Another cheap internet scan I'm afraid (away from home again, so don't have access to my own stuff) ... Gilda Woods with her Jilmor Production's mate Cathy Morrell flank RCA's Winston 'Buzz' Willis in Las Vegas. Seems the ladies must have liked dressing up as 'young dollybirds'. Buzz Willis had started out in the Solitaires before heading off to college (in Cleveland) and then doing promo work for MGM / Verve. After that he landed a job with RCA, soon becoming the label's youngest Vice President. He went onto create the first Black Music Division for the company.

.... its what the original scene was built around ..... Which original scene was that then, coz the scene in 1966/67/68/69 didn't care 1% about OV. So which scene are you on about that's more original that what took place in soul's glory years !! ..... AND ... to answer your snide remark about me no longer going to soul venues .... the last time I attended a soul do was as long ago as ... errmmm ... yesterday.

Was Gilda partly a front for the work / business dealings of Georgie Woods (the guy with the goods) ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GsBZgzC-us

Well, here's most of the people involved in 1967 .....

Hope to hear this played at every Casino Oldies nite I attend from now on. ........... top tune with strong Wigan connections.

Well the (1967) Twisted Wheel was about my 4th regular allniter, so that tells you what era I'm from .... .... and all this insistence on OVO just makes me laugh ..... don't get it at all; never have, never will ... ... the idea that you would refuse to dance to a fave track coz it wasn't being played off OV is just plain crazy.

.... went to a local soul/northern do at weekend, place packed dancefloor full most of night, everybody enjoying themselves still full hour after last record ........... So the place was buzzing & everyone there had a great time. Loads of people still there way after the last record was spun, so obviously a great 'social' event. So WTF does it matter one jot what format the music was played off.

I started work on my book about 18 months ago with a deadline of Spring 2012. Still only 70% through the research stage & only 50% through the 'initial draft chapters' stage. ............... set myself a spring 2013 date to finish it now. Mind you, coming on here & finding a topic that interests me has me shooting off at tagents numerous times. That slows down work on my major project. I also get involved in 'smaller projects' & get to post up an article quickly (on here or the like). Everything seems to slow my major project down these days ... PLUS .... my source / collaborator will tell me some fact or other & that will open up a whole new area that I have to research.

Stax hit Miami in May 69 ............. ... followed by another booking for local act Jessie (Lee) Ferguson & the OL's ...

I posted this photo up on a soul related web site a couple of weeks ago .............. ... wouldn't mind a couple of those show ad hangings for my record room (if they'd fit in that is, they look quite tall) ............

Dave, I only checked this article and didn't see the photo up there. Just looked at the 'Forever Saturday Night' article which I didn't know was up on the site as well & saw it there. I see Oliver made mention of the 'Mad Dog & Pups' tracks in the 'other article' (Forever Saturday Night) on him. Yes, got the 45 -- Many thanks.

Sorry Steve, I was obviously WAY OUT with my guestimate that ..... .... The Honey Bees 45 (Garrison #3005 / 50642) had to be released around MARCH to June of 1967 .....

Google (& Bing) maps are great for seeing how things looked a few months back but they constantly update their info & so you never get things in a 'historical context'. What someone needs to do now is go back to the 60's / 70's maps / aerial photos and start loading those up online. So much of the neighborhoods that we are interested in have been decimated over the last 30 years. Pull up modern day maps of the 'soul' areas of Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore, Miami, etc and what you see bears no relation at all to what was there in the 'glory years' (60's / 70's). Just about all the top chiltlin circuit venues are long gone. The studios, record shops, bars , small local clubs have all been bulldozed. To get a feel for what an area was like, we need aerial or street shots that are over 30 years old. .... AND ... its not just the street scenes that we have lost. It amazes me how few photos there are of soul artists performing in top US & UK theatres / clubs. Every week across the USA (back in the 60's) there would be upwards of 100 artists performing in chitlin circuit venues but how many were photographed & which of the few shots that were taken still exist. About the only place I can think of where photos are available is the Apollo in Harlem. Top acts (usually 5/6) played venues such as Carr's Beach from the 40's thru to the 70's .... but try to find photos of them & only about a dozen can be found on the net -- and many of those concentrate on the MC (DJ) with just the act in the background. I was at the Wheel (for the last time) yesturday and for 4/5 years they had top acts on live at every Saturday allniter, but how many photos of those acts exist today and it is very few. I find this strange as many of the acts were 'charting' at the time (late 60's) and it was their only show in the Manchester area on each tour. You would have thought the local newspaper's entertainment's reporter would have gone along to interview / photograph the likes of Ike & Tina, Edwin Starr, Ben E King, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Ruffin, Jnr Walker, Johnny Johnson & Bandwagon, Drifters, etc; but they don't seem to have made the effort.

Oliver (during his Move days) snapped in his hotel room up in Scotland ...

These guys were swinging down in Miami ...

the honeybees recorded on roxbury (dream express) 1976 That set of Honey Bees were UK based. Their producers were Richard Hewson & Phil Swern who worked with the likes of the Pearls (1972), R & J Stone, Bryan Taylor, etc. Hewson led the RAH Band

Pete, the dates are listed in my text .... L to R: Dec 66 / Jan 67 / May 71

Wrong. The Tams went out as 'the Girls' when x-dressing. They did gigs on the beach scene in the 60's. The Honeybees were really the Temptations in drag !! While that info is fresh in my mind; think I'll add it to the group's Wikipedia pages

Some Garrison related info ............... The Garrison label was launched in early December 1966 Earl Harrison's big 45 (Garrison #3001 / 50620) on the label hit the stores (& the charts) in Jan 67. The Honey Bees 45 (Garrison #3005 / 50642) had to be released around March to June of 1967 ..... ... weren't the Andantes very busy at Motown at that time ?? ... AND ... Honey & the Bees were definitely busy in Philly recording studios (on Arctic sessions) during that period. There was a Honey Bees playing gigs in Las Vegas in May 71. I doubt this was the same group though. There were also groups who used the name in the 1950's & 1970's.

RE: the BevGlenn / ABC Records Otis Smith >> FEB 1973; ABC / Dunhill Records appoint Otis Smith as vice president in charge of special projects. Smith was responsible for ABC's expansion into the r&b field, covering all phases of that product. Smith had been with ABC in the capacity of Director of Singles Sales at an earlier time (from 1968 thru to early 1970's). In 1971 & 1972 he was working for Hot Wax (label vice-president) & Invictus. He had joined label management at MGM in 1962 and then had a spell at Riverside from Feb 1967. So I guess the recording artist Otis Smith & the label manager of the same name were different guys (unless he was doing both at the same time).

Honey & the Bees (Josie) Personal Mangement -- Jimmy Bishop & Penguin Artists Booking Agent -- QBC