Roburt

A couple of DID YOU KNOW's from me ... The tracks credited to the Steinways were just rebranded Laddins recordings really (the record company thought their existing name branded them as old fashioned, so came up with a new one). . . . BUT down in Miami, the Laddins were still a big drawn under their old name ... So they'd perform in New York as the Steinways but still be billed as the Laddins in Miami ... The group had started life as an all male do-wop group, but around 1964, they'd added Frankie Gearing to the group to allow them to be more versatile in their live performances (male + female leads). However, after a while, she went off to form the Glories. She was on their Oliver tracks though which had been cut in spring 1966. Their rebranding did little to increase sales of their 45, however the single did almost make the top of the chart on Roanoke pop radio stn WROV in July 66 -- the 45 being on their chart for a period of weeks. Frankie Gearing was no longer in the group when the Laddins / Steinways made their 1st trip to the UK -- she was replaced with another female lead for those UK trips. They were brought over here by Roy Tempest & had to perform here as the Fabulous Platters.

The Jnr Walker clip was recorded @ the Ram Jam, Club in London of course. It was the club that gave Geno Washington's band their name. Otis Redding also played a gig there & he was able to bring his full 14 piece US band with him. But he had just been voted top world male singer by UK music mag readers, so I guess he knew he had to impress when playing live here. From my post 3 above; the middle two adverts are for 2 shows in Baltimore around the Xmas period 1964; one at the Royal Theatre, one at the Stanton Theatre. There was only 4 days between the 2 shows & Xmas is an expensive time anyway -- If I'd only had the money to go to one of them, I think my $2 would have been spent at the Stanton.

Lots of prog rock & blues rock acts in the 70's would extend their recordings when on stage. They'd add in solo's by some / all the members of the band; a rock guitar break, a drum break, etc. so a 6 minute long LP track would last 12+ minutes on stage. Some bands, I seem to remember the Incredible String Band being one, would show just how versatile / avant-garde they were by adding totally unrelated bits into songs and reciting a poem halfway through another. Other bands would swop instruments on stage to show that every member could play each individual's main one; again to show off how 'gifted' they were. Emerson, Lake & Palmer would do long rock versions of classical numbers. Excess seemed to be the order of the day. THANKFULLY, that never really happened with many black soul / blues acts, they were on stage to entertain their audiences, not show off (the 'showing off' element came in their clothes & dance moves). The likes of Isaac Hayes would extend tracks & alter them on live shows, but he was already doing 12 minute long tracks in the recording studio. Blues guitarists would add in an extended guitar break & other singers would add in a 'rap' (old skool talkin rap, not hip hop style rap). Most times the story told in the rap would be relevant to the storyline in the song being performed. You had singers such as Millie Jackson who would have one theme to her whole show (sex in her case), so again tracks would be changed to fit in with her theme.. But if you had 20+ musicians backing you up in the studio, you had to adapt the way it was played when on a live show with 4 / 5 less versatile guys behind you. But, that said, the NORM for soul acts was just about always to really speed up the song when doing it live. Very little or no effort was made to reproduce the track as recorded. I'd say that Motown acts would be required to stick closer to the recorded version when playing live but that was made much easier on Motown Review shows (a staple touring format for the company's acts in the 60's) as they took their own backing troupe with them on tour (that band being led by Popcorn Wylie, EVD, Choker Campbell, Hamilton Bohannon at different times). Of course, if each act only had a short section of a much longer show, you had to stick to short versions of songs done in a pre-planned way -- that meant each section of the show could be tightly controlled (time wise) and therefore the whole presentation would fit neatly into the required time slot. When the Stax / Volt ensemble toured the UK & Europe, they also brought their studio musicians with them, but they didn't try too hard to stick close to the recorded versions of songs. Sam & Dave always performed in more of a gospel way, incorporating call & response sections into most songs. In fact, lots of soul shows were run more on the lines of the famous gospel caravan shows that had been doing the rounds in the US since the 50's. But in the US, if you didn't hold up your part of the show, you wouldn't get selected to join the package tours that did the chitlin circuit. The circuit of chitlin theatres were great though, as most had their own resident orchestra. As you'd play around 15 times over a 7 day period (only doing a 15 minute slot), they learn all your songs and perform them well on each show. So they'd have listened the the recorded versions and you'd have to tell them if you were sticking close to that on the live show or how you wanted to change it (speeding it up or whatever). Unluckily for us Brits, such backing ensembles weren't often available when soul acts visited the UK. In the 70's, more soul acts became self-contained (playing their own instruments), so touring the UK / Europe didn't present as big a problem to them.

CHANGING THE SUBJECT A LITTLE ... On the other 'busy' topic it was stated that only the original artists performing their studio recordings in the same way that they were originally recorded is acceptable on the NS scene. No singers / acts doing covers of those songs or orchestras having a go with guest singers. BUT BACK IN THE DAY, no act performed their hits / studio tracks as they were recorded ... they upped the energy level to add to the excitement of the show ... an example from RSG .. In addition to the tempo change; visiting acts (apart from the Motown & Stax packages) had to accept UK backing bands. So once again, their performances were much different to their studio work. Lots of soul folk don't like the LIVE albums released on visiting soul acts (Garnett Mimms, Major Lance, etc) coz of this. Lots of backing bands were quite inexperienced/ far from top class musicians (Roy Tempest's backing bands for instance, whereas some visiting acts were better served (Mary Wells having Sounds Incorporated as her band on the Beatles tour she did here -- she also brought a Motown guitarist with her to lead them).

ClubaGogo, did you approach Ian Wright about getting access to some of his 60's photos taken in the club ? He lives in the US these days & gets lots of TV interviews coz of all his early NE England pics of the Beatles & Stones. The Beatles also took him with them to document their 1st US tour, so he's got loads of great pics from that too. He worked for the Darlington newspaper (Northern Echo) back in the day & had left lots of his old negatives with the paper but they contacted him when they were clearing all their old stuff out & he came over to reclaim his 60's work product. When a top UK theatre tour wasn't in the north-east, he'd go along to the Club aGoGo to take pics of the acts they had on there. News: Legendary Photographer Ian Wright to Deliver a Talk About His Star-Studded Collection at Stockton Globe – NE Volume //nevolume.co.uk/culture/events/news-legendary-photographer-ian-wright-to-deliver-a-talk-about-his-star-studded-collection-at-stockton-globe/

The Port release has also seen plenty of action.

INFO FROM DISCOGS ... The Imaginations (Fraternity) were an R&B vocal group from Dayton, Ohio 1966-1971. The group was lead by Robert Alvarez, who had been in the Del-Vikings. . After he left that group, he moved to Dayton (having been in the Air Force) and started this set of Imaginations. He found some younger singers, still in high school, to form the group. The other members were Dave Peoples, Freddie Williams, and Charles Smith. Williams and Peoples were students at Dunbar High School at the time. The Imaginations (20th Century) were a Chicago soul vocal quartet, one of a number of Chicago groups produced by Clarence Johnson's Star-Vue Productions. The group's genesis was in the ashes of another Star-Vue act, Brighter Side Of Darkness: after "Love Jones" became a hit, most of the group was fired after a legal dispute with their label; Arthur Scales, Jesse Harvey, and Nathaniel Pringle were hired as replacements. After "Brighter Side"s breakup, Johnson hired Tyrone Stewart as lead singer, re-christening them as The Imaginations.

Although this Bobby Moore (aka Bobby Lee) was active in the music biz for many years, very few pictures of him seem to still be around. Most pics of the Fiestas show the group's line up before he was a member.

It seems that no one, apart from guys who spent many nights at the Casino and have remained on the (so called) 'scene' ever since are allowed to write about or do radio / TV slots about Northern Soul ... even black radio DJ's who front respected soul shows. By that standard, I guess no Yank (either singer, musician, producer, DJ, record dealer, etc) should be allowed to comment on NS either. Without a new, younger crowd buying into the music we love, our 'scene' will soon disappear forever. . . . Without 'media outsiders' giving the scene / music a public airing in the press, on radio & TV, how are young 'outside punters' to discover what is still going on and the records being played -- after all, those still to come across NS are surely the future (if they like what they hear / read about it). The Radio 4 presenter said, she never usually listens into the BBC Proms, but was intrigued by the prospect of the BBC orchestra attacking 60's / 70's black dance tunes. After, listening to the NS Prom on the radio, she went straight to youtube to watch clips of the concert. She then states it was the most infectious radio programme she'd ever heard. HOW DARE SHE, AS AN OUTSIDER ENJOY OUR MUSIC WHEN EXPOSED TO IT. OAt the prom & on her show, Stuart M described the dancing style & clothes back in the 70's. He then went on to explain the difference between the sounds played at Wigan to those played at the Mecca. To 'outsiders' that must have been valuable info. He also said ... there are some that are the 'chosen few' at present, but he wanted those completely new to it, to discover what joyous NS music had to offer. If trying to catch the interest of new disciples to 'our scene' is verboten, then NS truly is doomed. THE ABOVE ARE THE OPINIONS OF A 75 YEAR OLD, MANY OF WHOSE CONTEMPORARIES HAVE PASSED AWAY OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS.I MYSELF AM NOW TOO OLD TO ATTEND NIGHTERS & I'VE EVEN GIVEN UP WEEKENDERS SINCE THE PANDEMIC. SO I'M NOW AN 'OUTSIDER' TOO, DON'T SHOOT ME FOR HOLDING DIFFERENT VIEWS TO YOU.

So Trevor never even dissed NS at all. However It seems the other blokes & gal did diss it ... who does Keb think he is to say Wigan played loads of pop shite coz the DJ's got lazy ... surely not ...

I beg to differ. ALSO, Trevor Nelson may have said some negative things about a NS venue but I seem to recall him attending one of Ady's Cleggy Weekenders and having a really good time (my memory may be off though).

The knockers will no doubt pile in once again. Why shouldn't Craig Charles interview folk on the scene, he's a soul radio DJ after all. Apart from having Dustbin Stanley on, it was an OK piece of reporting.

There's a great 'back story' behind this guys performances .... but he doesn't do any original; songs ... Judging from another recent thread on here, some may say he's just doing covers of songs which in their original form have really enriched people's lives (mine included). But I believe he demonstrates real soulful content, probably due to the hardships he's endured during that life. To me his efforts do not come across as empty re-imagining of soul classics. The quality he displays mean he's more than a mere cover-merchant; never coming across as cringey or dire. He creates a groove, has guts and is in no way flat, bland, unpassionate in the way he performs his 'covers'. Due to the show he performed on being mainstream peak TV viewing, the song arrangements are lavish. They support his vocals well, allowing him to really interpret the songs he tackles. Many may dismiss his efforts, but I applaud them. The Masqueraders got a huge amount of good publicity from appearing on this show, I hope it can also act as a boost to a future singing career for Archie.

I'd start with "Cut You Loose" if you're into NS ... although the track has a few 'rough edges' & the sound quality on the recording ain't the greatest. One of his earlier efforts ...

Ramot Enterprises were active from 1963 to around 1967 .... Bobby Moore for much longer ...

This is a piece about the music career of Bobby Moore .. BUT not the "Anything Man" guy ... OR EVEN ... The Rhythm Aces leader ... this is about the New Jersey Bobby Moore. Bobby started out in the music biz around 1958 in Newark, NJ. He & his mates formed a group to emulate Little Anthony & the Imperials, their always performed tune being "Tears On My Pillow". By 1960, they had established themselves enough to get a record deal. A 45 credited to the 4 Most escaped on Milo. The 45 did nothing & the group broke up. But Bobby had been noticed & the Fiestas came looking for him & got him to join the group. Booby was on the group's Old Town recordings made in fall 1960. He then sang lead on both sides of their early 61 single released by Strand. 1962 saw Bobby going solo and having "The Ginger Snap" out as 'Little Bobby Moore' on King. 1963 saw his first group's 45 put out on an oldies label and this prompted Bobby to put together a new set of the FourMost and they had a single, "You Got To Live For Yourself", out on Fantasy in 1964. Another solo effort also came out in 64; "I Carefully Checked Your Heart" on Kay=O (this song being a NY office Jobete registered song). In 1965 it was back to the group. "It Was A Lie"" appeared on the D.W. label (with the group's name misspelled as the "Fourmosts"). This 45 was licensed by Red Bird for national distribution in 1966. But Bobby soon went back to cutting solo (1966), but there was a complication. Another guy was enjoying hits as Bobby Moore (with his group the Rhythm Aces), therefore Bobby had to find a new name. So when "I Was Born A Loser"/"My Luck Is About To Change" on the Sue label (#45-144), it was attributed to 'Bobby Lee'. A second Sue 45 followed; "I Missed It By That Much"/"I'm Not Afraid" (#45-145). There was one more Bobby Lee record from 1966: "Cut You Loose" (another of Bobby's compositions), backed with "I'm Just A Man," on the Port label (/#45-3022). During this period and on into the 70's Bobby was also the vocalist with Duke Anderson's band. They participated on a Ramot Productions session that resulted in 2 tracks escaping on the Cloud label (65). Another Ramot production (the teaming behind Bobby's 45's on Sue) saw a 45 attributed to Bobbi & Michi being released b y Josie in 66. Booby Moore aka Bobby Lee stayed in the music biz and even rejoined a set of Fiestas in the 1990's. Bobby passed in 2013.

The 1st Players 45 on a Memphis radio stn chart ... some interesting other 45's also figuring at the time ...

It makes no sense at all that this would be a 1968 release ... It was Minit #32013 ... checking other Minit releases, #32008 (Homer Banks) was released in the US in Sept 66 (reviewed in US music press in mid Sept 66) & in the UK in early Jan 67. #32012 (The Players) released mid Oct 66, reviewed in US press early Nov and made US charts early Dec 66. #32014 (Jimmy Holiday) failed to get to the release stage but was pencilled in for Jan 67. A different Jimmy holiday 45 was quickly scheduled (#32016) and this escaped in Jan 67 (gaining reviews in Feb 67). #32015 (O'Jays) released in mid Jan 67 and was reviewed in US press in mid Feb 67. #32020 (Homer Banks) was a Feb 67 US release + April 67 UK release. So whoever assigned a 68 release date to the Shawn Robinson 45 was clearly wrong. Minit 45's #32030, 31, 32 & 33 were all 1967 releases with #33 gaining press reviews just before Xmas 67. So Shawn's 45 would have been numbered after #32033 if it were a 68 release. Minit was part of Liberty Records and so not the sort of label to have made a major numbering mistake.

LOL

Folk who opposed this concert really seem to be obtuse just for the sake of it. I said I didn't attend during the Wigan era ... to anyone with any grasp on reality, to me that indicates I attended on a regular basis before & after the Wigan era. So I guess I must know that the scene didn't start & finish with Wigan. Last post from me on this thread as it's beginning to disappear up it's own ass ... Those that appreciated the BBC concert will continue to do so & will look forward to it being screened on BBC2. Those who oppose that view will no doubt continue to fume at our opinion.

RE: many of us just didn't find the BBC representation of 'Northern Soul' either soulful or tasteful. Or, in fact, anything to do with Northern Soul (except in the song titles and advertising slogans). I think many on here must have selective memories ... I went away from niters the entire period that Wigan was ruling the waves ... when I returned to the fold, I couldn't believe how much ABSOLUTE POP SHITE was now being called NORTHERN SOUL.

With Gregory Carroll being a long time member of the Orioles & then other NY area groups through to the mid 60's, it is highly likely that he got to know / did shows with Earl Carroll of the Cadillacs. Gregory Carroll had started life as JOHN Carroll (no idea why he changed his name) and his 1st group -- the Four Buddies -- were from the same area of Baltimore as Sonny Til & the other original Orioles. John / Gregory's older brother, was also in a local group, the Four Buds. So the Carroll family were well connected in Balto R&B circles. Gregory / John's group (4 Buddies) recorded a load for Savoy between 1950 and 1955 and had some hits. But Gregory was soon to become an Oriole. The Cadillacs were from New Jersey and when the group split into 2 rival groups in 1957, Earl Carroll led one version with J R Bailey being in the other one. It seems that the Balto' Carrolls and the Cadillacs Earl Carroll weren't related but they must have known each other. Even more so after Earl left the Cadillacs in 61 to join the Coasters -- as already stated, Gregory Carroll worked with the Coasters (in 64 on "Wild One" & other tracks). Gregory Carroll had started life as John Carroll, J R Bailey took on numerous different names (for recording purposes), so there's no reason why a long time group member (Earl Carroll) wouldn't try a solo recording and put it out under a different name ... but as you say, that's speculation. One thing against it though ... Earl Jackson is the name he used to register his songs & that still seems to be the name used. Lots of guys used alternate names, but down the years they have linked their 'false names' to their real name to ensure their composer's royalties due continue to roll in. There is no other name linked to Earl Jackson on the BMI site.

Earl also wrote with Ralph Bass and Morton Craft, both New York based. Gregory Carroll has 226 songs registered with BMI; so he must have cut hundreds of composers demo tracks -- singing himself or using guy / gal pals to handle the vocals for him.

Although his ABC 45 has been a big record for over 50 years, little is known of Earl. I made mention of him in the current BBC Proms thread ... ... I chatted with Johnny Pate for ages and then it came to me that I knew nothing about Earl Jackson (Johnny P co-wrote "Soul Self Satisfaction" and ran the studio session). The 45 was released in October 68, so the track was most probably cut in August / September that year. Pate's main focus at the time was the Impressions and similar groups (the Mighty Marvelows, etc.) but he didn't seem to be super busy at that time. I asked him about Earl & his recording session and the songs he cut. Johnny couldn't remember anything at all about the guy, the song or the session. He stated I just used to go into the studio from 9 to 5 everyday and work, do whatever was called for each day. It was just my job. So, even the guy who masterminded the track remembers nothing at all about it or about Earl. So further digging seemed appropriate. His recording session took place in Chicago but that doesn't mean he was from that area. Johnny Pate was the 'go-to' guy at ABC if you were cutting soul tracks from the mid to late 60's. So singers would be signed to ABC in (say) New York or LA but be sent to cut in Chicago. So, Chicago may not be significant when it comes to Earl. I first visited BMI to check what they had on him (see below) ..... He wrote 20 registered songs, mostly in conjunction with Gregory Carroll. Gregory Carroll had been in the music biz for years, so that link seemed more promising. Greg was from Baltimore and had started out as a member of Sonny Til's Orioles. But when work started drying up for the group (1955), Gregory moved on and got into studio / behind the scenes work. He couldn't stay away from the mic though and started a new group in 56 -- the Dappers. They didn't do too well and so he continued his other works. Next came Greg & Peg (with Peggy Jones aka Lady Bo). He had a solo 45 out in 1960 & then started a group with Doc Wheeler and Doris Troy. He then worked with Doris Troy and the pair wrote "Just One Look". He produced the song on Doris & it became a massive hit. Based in New York, he followed that with sessions on the likes of the Coasters, the Essex, Big Joe Turner, Ashford & Simpson, Anna Craig ("The Life Of The Party"), JoAnn Courcy ("I Got The Power"), The vibrations, Lou Christie and more. He also got back in front of the mic himself again; in conjunction with J R Bailey he started the Previews (Veep; 1965). So Gregory Carrol, with whom Earl worked on at least nine songs, was New York based and worked with lots of NY soul scene folk (Henry Glover, etc.). So it's quite safe to assume Earl was NY based while working with Gregory. So did Earl work in the studio with Gregory Carroll. If he did, either the tracks weren't released or they were put out under a different name. Is there anyone on here who has researched Gregory Carroll and his studio / song writing work in the mid to late 60's. In 1968 Gregory, in conjunction with J R Bailey, was laying down tracks like "I've Got My Lovelight Shining" on cuts released as by Chuck Wood. So it seems his song writing with Earl had ended by then (the successful songs the pairing wrote came out in 63,64,66). Anyone have knowledge of who Gregory Carroll got to sing the demo versions of his songs -- Gregory himself or someone like Earl. Knowing more about Gregory's way of working on his demo cuts MAY help to shed more light on the mystery of Earl Jackson.