Roburt

We didn't have cars on our early niter trips, so usually took public transport (bus / train). When going to the Mojo niters (66/67), we'd hang out afterwards (Sunday morning) at Sheffield bus stn cafe (waiting for the 1st bus back to Donny). Then, as a big Sunday dinner would be forced on us if we went home, we'd usually crash for a few hours in a town centre cinema. When the Mojo closed, we turned to the Nite Owl (Leicester -- getting there by hitching or train usually). My mate Tom Sleight got to take us in his dad's car one week. We called at Leicester services (M1) on the Sunday morning. But after that stop, he blew the car's engine up, so we never got to use it again. Then the Owl was also closed, so it was the Wheel (going by train at first & then lifts in mate's cars). The ritual in Manc on Sunday mornings, was to wait around in the car park behind the Wheel while lads played niter sounds on Discatrons. We'd then head over to Piccadilly for the 1st available train back over to Yorkshire (or drive back mid morning).

I can't tell you which Arctic tracks were cut in Detroit but I do know when Gamble & Huff were over there (@ Motown and GW). Gene Dozier had quit Philly to try his luck in Detroit after chatting with Mickey Stevenson backstage @ the Uptown. One of the last things he did in Philly was start co-writing a song with Norman Johnson. It wasn't finished when he headed out of town. Both guys did further work on the song -- Norman's version became Eddie Carlton's "It Will Be Done (June 65). Gene laid down a demo version of his effort which was released as "Swoop Down On You" and credited to Lorenzo Manley (a 1966 Original Sound 45 release -- the uva side of the 45 being cut by Lorenzo himself in LA after Gene had moved there). So, Gene headed off to Detroit & went to Motown's studio. He didn't really get the welcome he was expecting but did get 'taken on'. He told me he sang background on Stevie Wonder's "Uptight" sometime in Fall 65. He co-wrote some songs with other Motown writers, these included one release a while later on the Marvelettes ("Too Many Tears, Too Many Times"). But he told the Motown team his name was "Billy Jackson" aka Billy the KId (coz he was still young). Gamble & Huff came into town and hung out at Motown. The guys there said ... Oh, you'll know Billy Jackson who's working here now ... puzzled (coz they knew the real Billy was still back in Philly), they asked to see the guy ... that's not Billy Jackson, that guy's name is Gene Dozier they told the Motowners. So Gene / Billy was asked to move on in late 65 / early 66. He moved across town to work with Golden World / Solid Hit. There he was responsible for Pat Lewis's "Let's Go Together" (March 66 release), Theresa Lindsey's "Daddy-O" (May 66 release) & Pat Lewis's "No Baby No" (a later Solid Hit released cut, which had obviously been cut a while before it's release) + other tracks. But Gene soon decided to move on again, this time to LA. There he hooked up with a new musical partner (Santifer) & cut the Blossoms "Let Your Love Shine on Me" (October 66 release) & tracks by the Groovettes ("Think It Over Baby", etc) put out on Reness. BACK TO THE QUESTION THOUGH ... Gamble & Huff exposed Gene Dozier's deception at Motown some time in latish 65 / early 66. So Gamble & Huff were over in Detroit to cut tracks during that time period ... so I guess those tracks would have been released on or after Arctic # 115. I guess the likes of Robb would hear the work of Detroit musicians if he listened to the right Arctic tracks from that period (late 65 through to mid 66 releases I guess). No doubt the guys that check out the Motown track recording online database can easily ID when "Uptight" was laid down and when "Too Many Tears, Too Many Times" was also laid down to get a more accurate date for Gene's work at Motown.

The Bandwagon's US 45 was doing so well by late May 68, that Epic sent out new promo copies to radio stations & music mags across the States. Their new 45 followed just after & was reviewed as a potential pop chart contender in those mags in June 68 ... the mags having reported their original 45's regional breakout status in April 68.

Back in the 1960's, US 'black' TV channels usually struggled to get loads of high priced advertising. Coz of this, they had to put on cheap shows. With soul music making stars of black singers / groups, many being based in the cities where black TV channels existed, it was only natural that these stations would have their own black music TV show. Some became big & went national (American Bandstand -- both pop & soul acts starring on this). But others stayed local or were shown on far less stations. Shows such as Shindig, Hollywood A Go Go, Shivaree (all featured both pop & soul acts), The Beat, SOUL (see ad below), Teen Town, Upbeat, etc were typical of the type of music shows that aired back then. Many times, they'd play host to a national act who was appearing in their city that week and add in local acts who were always available to appear. But some weeks they'd struggle to get enough acts on to make a full show. So, enterprising music biz folk decided if they filmed one of their acts singing their latest release, then this footage would have a lot of potential customers & the act wouldn't have to travel to numerous different locations to appear on local TV shows. This practise spread to soul acts around 1967 and these short films (the equivalent of later videos) were shot & mailed out to likely customers at black TV stations. One such 'early' film was made of THE BANDWAGON performing "Baby Make Your Own Sweet Music". This track had been released on an Epic 45 in mid November 1967 -- initially as 2 different promo copy 45's -- one featured 2 Bandwagon tracks, whilst the other featured the Bandwagon's plug side track in conjunction with Sly & the Family Stone's track "Dance To The Music". Sly's cut was well received and his cut was soon getting lots of radio plays, it made the R&B charts and then the pop charts. The same can't be said for the Bandwagon's offering. Although their cut was a very commercial song written / produced by Sandy Linzer & Denny Randell, it failed to take off. It's lack of radio plays was probably the reason why (early in 1968) a film was made of the group performing the song. This was duly sent out to a number of black TV stations. But again, take up was slow. THEN, for whatever reason, a black TV station in Detroit added it to their local music show and it aired. The film got a good response, so they added the film to another edition of their music show. The response to the film hadn't gone unnoticed & soon a local pop radio station added "Baby Make Your Own Sweet Music" to their playlist (this was in late March, 1968 -- this was aver 16 weeks after the 45 had been originally put out. Again, the track got a good response and soon it entered the radio station's chart; CKLW. Before the middle of April it was in that station's Top 10. Plays for the track began to spread, with it getting radio spins in Chicago, New York as well as in Detroit. This 'action' was noticed by the A&R guys at Mercury and that instructed one of their Philly based guys to cut a version of the song. Thus, in April 68 a Smash 45 was released; Jay And The Techniques -- "Baby Make Your Own Sweet Music". The Jay & Tech's version was picked up by many radio stations, both pop & soul orientated. A battle was now on between the two versions. Jay & the Tech's had an existing track record, with a couple of their earlier 45 tracks getting lots of radio exposure, where the Bandwagon were a 'new' group, their version of the song being the plug side of their first ever release. The battle between the two versions unfolded, with the Bandwagon's version doing best on the R&B charts, whilst Jay & the Tech's did far better on the US pop charts. Jay & the Tech's were made available to TV music shows, whilst the existing Bandwagon film continued to get aired. Both versions made a noticeable impact, so much so that both were also released overseas. Jay & the Tech's being put out in Canada, the UK, Spain and Japan. The Bandwagon's version gaining release in Canada (not unusual for a track that had done well in the Detroit area), UK (on Direction) and Holland. The song caught on with US & UK soul fans and other versions followed. Motown group, the Monitors cut a version which was included on their album 'Greetings We're The Monitors) late in 68. Ahead of that, ex US group the Velours / Fantastics cut a UK recorded version of the song that was released here on MGM (September 68). So, in this instance, it was the film of the Bandwagon performing the song that eventually resulted in the tracks US chart success and it gaining a UK release. The group's follow up 45 did OK in the States but became a massive UK pop chart hit ("Breakin' Down The Walls Of Heartache"). This success led the group to come over here to tour and they soon decided to settle in the UK and to further their recording career outside their native country. WITH the film of this track being just about the first example of a 'soul music video' creating interest in a 45 and eventually resulting in that 45 charting, you'd have thought that SOMEONE would have deemed it 'historic footage'. With this status, the film should therefore have been preserved and 'rolled out' during TV documentaries about TV music shows and how 'videos' would soon become a major way of promoting record releases. That does not seemed to have happened as the web searches I've undertaken have failed to identify the current whereabouts of this footage.

I got in touch with Sidney Barnes as he co-wrote songs in 1965 (along with JJ Jackson) with Ronald Moseley, who at the time was working with Robert Bateman for End Records. He recalls a lot about Ronald Moseley & Robert Bateman from those times -- he says he'll get back to me with the info a bit later on. I'll pass along whatever he still recalls.

Robb, I don't think what you read can have been in Billboard. All I could find relating to Robert Bateman in Billboard (apart from credits for 45 releases he gets noted on) were these ... An early Mercury related 45 that Bateman / Moseley were responsible for was the November 65 release on Phillips -- The La Vettes – Practice What You've Been Preachin' (# 40338). He had time at Double-L, Capitol & End before going with Mercury ... at End he also worked with Moseley (at the time Moseley was penning songs in conjunction with Sid Barnes & JJ Jackson) ...

Canada; November 73 ... you know things must have been getting bad when free-wheeling biz's like record labels started calling for government intervention.

Robb, lots of the info you just put up on the GW thread on Soulful Detroit should also go up on here as it adds more to the story ....

I sent Dave copies of some of my Prestatyn pics. No idea if they've ended up in the book or not though. He only asked for pics of a few of the acts I had pics of, so I didn't send that many to him. Here's one of them that shows Dave's old mate John Poole (RIP) ...

An ad for another show on her late 67 tour. It was mainly London clubs catering for black audiences that were still booking lots of black soul / ska acts late in 67 ... this was one such club ...

Info on both of Maxine's UK tours in 1967 ... https://garagehangover.com/maxine-brown-q-sets-gigs/ When UK student unions still booked the top live acts ... 1967 ...

To answer Robbs question from above ... I think that Way Out were trying for a Motown sound on this 45 ...

Another Cleveland / Detroit link ... the top Motown & Detroit acts were always playing live dates @ Cleveland venues ... THE MIRACLES @ LEO's CASINO ....

A UK music mag interview undertaken by Maxine during that tour ... PLUS an ad for a London gig she undertook on the tour ... the changing face of London club live bookings can clearly be seen in the ad (not 100% soul acts anymore) ... EVEN Alan Bown had quit soul & was into his "Toyland" / Outward Bown era.

Robb, well the DETROIT SOUND was the sound they were definitely trying to emulate. How close they got to it is hard to quantify but seeing as their studio acoustics were different, their mixing desk was different, their writers, producers, engineer (usually Lou back then), musicians & singers were all different .... I guess it was a thankless task. PLUS building the studio had drained all their cash, so they didn't have the luxury of going for many takes on each song to 'refine the sound' more precisely. It was straight down to recording, wam, bam, thank you man & the tracks were ready for final mixing & release. With regard to Lou & Edwin. Back then they weren't that close, though they knew each other of course. PLUS Edwin wasn't in Detroit much around that time (as discussed earlier on here) -- Edwin was in the UK in September / Oct 66. He returned here to tour again in Jan / Feb / March 67, then again in May / June 67. He was here even more in 1968; 3 tours in all -- Jan / Feb 68 + May / June 68 + Sept / Oct 68 .... He was on at the Wheel in Oct 68 (& during his earlier UK tours) ... In early July 65, Edwin's first 45 had become an instant radio hit (in places such as Baltimore, Cleve, Detroit), so he had to go on the road almost instantly. So he'd returned to Cleve to hire the musicians in his new backing band. Lou knew all the guys who went off with Edwin, but he wasn't one of them himself. Lou R really only hooked up & worked closely in conjunction with Edwin when they were both LA based in the mid 70's. This was before Lou moved on to Vegas & Edwin hit the big time again with "Contact" -- though Edwin had initially hooked up with 20th Century Records via a UK deal he had. It was only after he returned to record in LA with Lamont Dozier, Paul Riser, Hense Powell & H B Barnum that the big hits returned.

With Detroit music was the IN THING in the mid 60's, it was obvious other record companies would try to enjoy hits by getting in on Motown's act. Atlantic hooked up with Ollie McLaughlin and were getting hits with Barbara Lewis & the Capitols (who cut their big hit @ Golden World). Amy / Mala / Bell tried with cuts by Gino Washington & Melvin Davis. Chess got hits on Fontella Bass by copying the Motown sound, + they put out loads of other Detroit linked tracks. It isn't a secret that most US record companies were looking to capture that MOTOWN SOUND in the mid to late 60's, in order to get hits from that same rich vein. Companies were using Motown's musicians and signing their ex acts / producers / writers in an effort to get on the train. Over in Cleveland, Way Out Records had been struggling to sell enough of their 45's to stay afloat. They did deals to get national distribution from bigger labels, they took in 'outside money' to fund developments (Jim Brown, the NFL star & his Big Jim label releases in 1967). They wanted their own studio, but wanted the sound in there to have that 'hit magic'. Lou Ragland was a big part of their team at the time (67), but they couldn't fund any 45 releases. So they leased out his tracks to Amy in early 67. They then sent him on a mission to find out how Detroit got THEIR sound. He spent time in Detroit but couldn't get into the Motown studio. He did visit Golden World & United Sound and helped out on some recording sessions there. His most high profile contribution was playing on the backing track to a song titled "If This Is Love (I'd Rather Be Lonely) in early summer 67. He never actually met the group (the Precisions) who got to add their vocals to the track, as they weren't in the studio when the backing track was laid down. With what he had learnt, Lou returned to Cleveland and helped lay out the studio that Way Out had just constructed. They got close to that Detroit sound with some of their recordings, but they never got the big hits they were hoping for.

I think all the above + David's SOULFUL DETROIT bits mean just about all (well a very substantial % at the very least) we need to know about how the majority of Detroit's 60's soul recordings came about has been detailed. . . . . now we just have to do the same sort of thing for the 60's Chicago recordings that had major Detroit input. BTW, without the input / info from Robb & David, this thread would be devoid of much of the essential info it contains. Long may they grace us with their presence & data.

Roger didn't really seem to be well served by his record companies, but then he could be a very difficult person to deal with. Lots of his recordings down the years have proven to be difficult to get hold of. I guess he pissed off a lot of the bigger recording outfits & so had to make do with little indies & his own labels to get his tracks out. UK Expansion put out a comp album on him many moons ago (The Roger Hatcher Collection) & I was tasked with getting his bio from him to go in the CD release's booklet. To say he was obstructive to my approaches would be an understatement. In the end, Lou Ragland (who knew him) had to read him the riot act to get him to cooperate with my task. I believe Expansion had a few problems in their dealings with him too, after their album was released.

David, lots of folk go to those informative pages on the SOULFUL DETROIT archive to learn stuff. The maps & pics on your pages are especially interesting / useful. Just thought that there's some very useful info on this thread that isn't included on your pages + your pages deal with many other bits of info too.

BTW, I didn't even note down if FAMILY were also on that night. A Leicester group who (like just about all other UK beat groups at the time, played mainly soul covers). They would soon morph, like many other UK groups at the time, into a prog rock group just weeks later. They started having hits in their own right not long after (1968 LP 'Music In A Doll's House'). The Central R&B Club, Gillingham was still going as a soul venue a year later (after many other clubs on the UK circuit had gone over to prog rock / pop acts) ...

A very interesting piece that captures the spirit of US soul acts touring the UK back in the 60's. The photos included are especially magical. Touring acts played many venues back then that have now largely slipped from the memory. These acts would just about play all the top London soul clubs (the 100 Club wasn't one of those at the time) & they'd also play the niter clubs (Nite Owl, Leicester; Twisted Wheel, Manc). But they'd also play other venues that were regulars on UK's soul circuit -- one of 3 clubs in Nottingham (Dungeon, Brit, Boat Club), Gliderdrome, Boston, Calif, Dunstable, the big venue in Nelson, Bolton & Wigan Casino, one up in the NE (Newcastle or Middlesboro usually), a Portsmouth club (Birdcage) + many more. I also saw Maxine perform on that tour, catching her @ the Nite Owl niter session on October 7th. I kept a diary at the time & just noted down ... Nite Owl; Maxine Brown -- fantastic. One of the best I've ever seen. Had a great night. Gunner (Peterboro) there as well as Scunny, Lincoln lot. Went home via Lincoln, back in Pete's (London) van. Journey made via Barrow-on-Soar (we must have dropped someone off there on the way to Lincoln & then to my home town Donny). It was a fateful weekend, as Sunday midday it was off to the last ever session @ Sheffield's King Mojo (Stevie Wonder being the live act at the alldayer). The Mojo was closed by magistrates the following Tuesday, with the Owl following just weeks later (Dec 4th).

With everyone with the right knowledge seeming to comment on this thread, it really does contain some great info. Someone should take down the info posted and turn it into a proper article to go up in the ARTICLES section of the site. That way, it could be used as a source for anyone wanting the definitive details on 1960's Detroit Recording studios / producers and their work.

I knew you'd have most of the answers Robb.

My main aim when starting up this thread was to discover how many 'out of towners' cut in the Golden World studio. I knew from my contact with Chuck Corby that his group (from Pittsburgh) cut there. But, ascertaining just which local & national 'outside acts (i.e. non GW / Ric Tic / Wingate) cut in the studio isn't an easy task. Obviously the likes of United Sound & Rainbow / Tera Shirma undertook similar work In Detroit for many acts (I believe some GW tracks were even cut @ Tera Shirma & Chuck Jackson cut there too). But which of the local 'little label' acts used GW studios -- I'm thinking of acts who had releases on the likes of Thelma, Velgo, Soulhawk, M-S, Groove City, Groovesville, Revilot, Impact, Drew, D Town, Ashford, Atac, Big Hit, Boo, Carla, De-To, Diamond Jim, Dottys, Inferno, La Beat, Kool Kat, Mahs, Sepia, etc. Are such facts known ?

A few Golden World-ers are featured here. What GW cuts mean to us & what UK NS fans mean to them ....