Roburt

Back in the 1960's, US 'black' TV channels usually struggled to get loads of high priced advertising. Coz of this, they had to put on cheap shows. With soul music making stars of black singers / groups, many being based in the cities where black TV channels existed, it was only natural that these stations would have their own black music TV show. Some became big & went national (American Bandstand -- both pop & soul acts starring on this). But others stayed local or were shown on far less stations. Shows such as Shindig, Hollywood A Go Go, Shivaree (all featured both pop & soul acts), The Beat, SOUL (see ad below), Teen Town, Upbeat, etc were typical of the type of music shows that aired back then. Many times, they'd play host to a national act who was appearing in their city that week and add in local acts who were always available to appear. But some weeks they'd struggle to get enough acts on to make a full show. So, enterprising music biz folk decided if they filmed one of their acts singing their latest release, then this footage would have a lot of potential customers & the act wouldn't have to travel to numerous different locations to appear on local TV shows. This practise spread to soul acts around 1967 and these short films (the equivalent of later videos) were shot & mailed out to likely customers at black TV stations. One such 'early' film was made of THE BANDWAGON performing "Baby Make Your Own Sweet Music". This track had been released on an Epic 45 in mid November 1967 -- initially as 2 different promo copy 45's -- one featured 2 Bandwagon tracks, whilst the other featured the Bandwagon's plug side track in conjunction with Sly & the Family Stone's track "Dance To The Music". Sly's cut was well received and his cut was soon getting lots of radio plays, it made the R&B charts and then the pop charts. The same can't be said for the Bandwagon's offering. Although their cut was a very commercial song written / produced by Sandy Linzer & Denny Randell, it failed to take off. It's lack of radio plays was probably the reason why (early in 1968) a film was made of the group performing the song. This was duly sent out to a number of black TV stations. But again, take up was slow. THEN, for whatever reason, a black TV station in Detroit added it to their local music show and it aired. The film got a good response, so they added the film to another edition of their music show. The response to the film hadn't gone unnoticed & soon a local pop radio station added "Baby Make Your Own Sweet Music" to their playlist (this was in late March, 1968 -- this was aver 16 weeks after the 45 had been originally put out. Again, the track got a good response and soon it entered the radio station's chart; CKLW. Before the middle of April it was in that station's Top 10. Plays for the track began to spread, with it getting radio spins in Chicago, New York as well as in Detroit. This 'action' was noticed by the A&R guys at Mercury and that instructed one of their Philly based guys to cut a version of the song. Thus, in April 68 a Smash 45 was released; Jay And The Techniques -- "Baby Make Your Own Sweet Music". The Jay & Tech's version was picked up by many radio stations, both pop & soul orientated. A battle was now on between the two versions. Jay & the Tech's had an existing track record, with a couple of their earlier 45 tracks getting lots of radio exposure, where the Bandwagon were a 'new' group, their version of the song being the plug side of their first ever release. The battle between the two versions unfolded, with the Bandwagon's version doing best on the R&B charts, whilst Jay & the Tech's did far better on the US pop charts. Jay & the Tech's were made available to TV music shows, whilst the existing Bandwagon film continued to get aired. Both versions made a noticeable impact, so much so that both were also released overseas. Jay & the Tech's being put out in Canada, the UK, Spain and Japan. The Bandwagon's version gaining release in Canada (not unusual for a track that had done well in the Detroit area), UK (on Direction) and Holland. The song caught on with US & UK soul fans and other versions followed. Motown group, the Monitors cut a version which was included on their album 'Greetings We're The Monitors) late in 68. Ahead of that, ex US group the Velours / Fantastics cut a UK recorded version of the song that was released here on MGM (September 68). So, in this instance, it was the film of the Bandwagon performing the song that eventually resulted in the tracks US chart success and it gaining a UK release. The group's follow up 45 did OK in the States but became a massive UK pop chart hit ("Breakin' Down The Walls Of Heartache"). This success led the group to come over here to tour and they soon decided to settle in the UK and to further their recording career outside their native country. WITH the film of this track being just about the first example of a 'soul music video' creating interest in a 45 and eventually resulting in that 45 charting, you'd have thought that SOMEONE would have deemed it 'historic footage'. With this status, the film should therefore have been preserved and 'rolled out' during TV documentaries about TV music shows and how 'videos' would soon become a major way of promoting record releases. That does not seemed to have happened as the web searches I've undertaken have failed to identify the current whereabouts of this footage.

I got in touch with Sidney Barnes as he co-wrote songs in 1965 (along with JJ Jackson) with Ronald Moseley, who at the time was working with Robert Bateman for End Records. He recalls a lot about Ronald Moseley & Robert Bateman from those times -- he says he'll get back to me with the info a bit later on. I'll pass along whatever he still recalls.

Robb, I don't think what you read can have been in Billboard. All I could find relating to Robert Bateman in Billboard (apart from credits for 45 releases he gets noted on) were these ... An early Mercury related 45 that Bateman / Moseley were responsible for was the November 65 release on Phillips -- The La Vettes – Practice What You've Been Preachin' (# 40338). He had time at Double-L, Capitol & End before going with Mercury ... at End he also worked with Moseley (at the time Moseley was penning songs in conjunction with Sid Barnes & JJ Jackson) ...

Canada; November 73 ... you know things must have been getting bad when free-wheeling biz's like record labels started calling for government intervention.

Robb, lots of the info you just put up on the GW thread on Soulful Detroit should also go up on here as it adds more to the story ....

I sent Dave copies of some of my Prestatyn pics. No idea if they've ended up in the book or not though. He only asked for pics of a few of the acts I had pics of, so I didn't send that many to him. Here's one of them that shows Dave's old mate John Poole (RIP) ...

An ad for another show on her late 67 tour. It was mainly London clubs catering for black audiences that were still booking lots of black soul / ska acts late in 67 ... this was one such club ...

Info on both of Maxine's UK tours in 1967 ... https://garagehangover.com/maxine-brown-q-sets-gigs/ When UK student unions still booked the top live acts ... 1967 ...

To answer Robbs question from above ... I think that Way Out were trying for a Motown sound on this 45 ...

Another Cleveland / Detroit link ... the top Motown & Detroit acts were always playing live dates @ Cleveland venues ... THE MIRACLES @ LEO's CASINO ....

A UK music mag interview undertaken by Maxine during that tour ... PLUS an ad for a London gig she undertook on the tour ... the changing face of London club live bookings can clearly be seen in the ad (not 100% soul acts anymore) ... EVEN Alan Bown had quit soul & was into his "Toyland" / Outward Bown era.

Robb, well the DETROIT SOUND was the sound they were definitely trying to emulate. How close they got to it is hard to quantify but seeing as their studio acoustics were different, their mixing desk was different, their writers, producers, engineer (usually Lou back then), musicians & singers were all different .... I guess it was a thankless task. PLUS building the studio had drained all their cash, so they didn't have the luxury of going for many takes on each song to 'refine the sound' more precisely. It was straight down to recording, wam, bam, thank you man & the tracks were ready for final mixing & release. With regard to Lou & Edwin. Back then they weren't that close, though they knew each other of course. PLUS Edwin wasn't in Detroit much around that time (as discussed earlier on here) -- Edwin was in the UK in September / Oct 66. He returned here to tour again in Jan / Feb / March 67, then again in May / June 67. He was here even more in 1968; 3 tours in all -- Jan / Feb 68 + May / June 68 + Sept / Oct 68 .... He was on at the Wheel in Oct 68 (& during his earlier UK tours) ... In early July 65, Edwin's first 45 had become an instant radio hit (in places such as Baltimore, Cleve, Detroit), so he had to go on the road almost instantly. So he'd returned to Cleve to hire the musicians in his new backing band. Lou knew all the guys who went off with Edwin, but he wasn't one of them himself. Lou R really only hooked up & worked closely in conjunction with Edwin when they were both LA based in the mid 70's. This was before Lou moved on to Vegas & Edwin hit the big time again with "Contact" -- though Edwin had initially hooked up with 20th Century Records via a UK deal he had. It was only after he returned to record in LA with Lamont Dozier, Paul Riser, Hense Powell & H B Barnum that the big hits returned.

With Detroit music was the IN THING in the mid 60's, it was obvious other record companies would try to enjoy hits by getting in on Motown's act. Atlantic hooked up with Ollie McLaughlin and were getting hits with Barbara Lewis & the Capitols (who cut their big hit @ Golden World). Amy / Mala / Bell tried with cuts by Gino Washington & Melvin Davis. Chess got hits on Fontella Bass by copying the Motown sound, + they put out loads of other Detroit linked tracks. It isn't a secret that most US record companies were looking to capture that MOTOWN SOUND in the mid to late 60's, in order to get hits from that same rich vein. Companies were using Motown's musicians and signing their ex acts / producers / writers in an effort to get on the train. Over in Cleveland, Way Out Records had been struggling to sell enough of their 45's to stay afloat. They did deals to get national distribution from bigger labels, they took in 'outside money' to fund developments (Jim Brown, the NFL star & his Big Jim label releases in 1967). They wanted their own studio, but wanted the sound in there to have that 'hit magic'. Lou Ragland was a big part of their team at the time (67), but they couldn't fund any 45 releases. So they leased out his tracks to Amy in early 67. They then sent him on a mission to find out how Detroit got THEIR sound. He spent time in Detroit but couldn't get into the Motown studio. He did visit Golden World & United Sound and helped out on some recording sessions there. His most high profile contribution was playing on the backing track to a song titled "If This Is Love (I'd Rather Be Lonely) in early summer 67. He never actually met the group (the Precisions) who got to add their vocals to the track, as they weren't in the studio when the backing track was laid down. With what he had learnt, Lou returned to Cleveland and helped lay out the studio that Way Out had just constructed. They got close to that Detroit sound with some of their recordings, but they never got the big hits they were hoping for.

I think all the above + David's SOULFUL DETROIT bits mean just about all (well a very substantial % at the very least) we need to know about how the majority of Detroit's 60's soul recordings came about has been detailed. . . . . now we just have to do the same sort of thing for the 60's Chicago recordings that had major Detroit input. BTW, without the input / info from Robb & David, this thread would be devoid of much of the essential info it contains. Long may they grace us with their presence & data.

Roger didn't really seem to be well served by his record companies, but then he could be a very difficult person to deal with. Lots of his recordings down the years have proven to be difficult to get hold of. I guess he pissed off a lot of the bigger recording outfits & so had to make do with little indies & his own labels to get his tracks out. UK Expansion put out a comp album on him many moons ago (The Roger Hatcher Collection) & I was tasked with getting his bio from him to go in the CD release's booklet. To say he was obstructive to my approaches would be an understatement. In the end, Lou Ragland (who knew him) had to read him the riot act to get him to cooperate with my task. I believe Expansion had a few problems in their dealings with him too, after their album was released.

David, lots of folk go to those informative pages on the SOULFUL DETROIT archive to learn stuff. The maps & pics on your pages are especially interesting / useful. Just thought that there's some very useful info on this thread that isn't included on your pages + your pages deal with many other bits of info too.

BTW, I didn't even note down if FAMILY were also on that night. A Leicester group who (like just about all other UK beat groups at the time, played mainly soul covers). They would soon morph, like many other UK groups at the time, into a prog rock group just weeks later. They started having hits in their own right not long after (1968 LP 'Music In A Doll's House'). The Central R&B Club, Gillingham was still going as a soul venue a year later (after many other clubs on the UK circuit had gone over to prog rock / pop acts) ...

A very interesting piece that captures the spirit of US soul acts touring the UK back in the 60's. The photos included are especially magical. Touring acts played many venues back then that have now largely slipped from the memory. These acts would just about play all the top London soul clubs (the 100 Club wasn't one of those at the time) & they'd also play the niter clubs (Nite Owl, Leicester; Twisted Wheel, Manc). But they'd also play other venues that were regulars on UK's soul circuit -- one of 3 clubs in Nottingham (Dungeon, Brit, Boat Club), Gliderdrome, Boston, Calif, Dunstable, the big venue in Nelson, Bolton & Wigan Casino, one up in the NE (Newcastle or Middlesboro usually), a Portsmouth club (Birdcage) + many more. I also saw Maxine perform on that tour, catching her @ the Nite Owl niter session on October 7th. I kept a diary at the time & just noted down ... Nite Owl; Maxine Brown -- fantastic. One of the best I've ever seen. Had a great night. Gunner (Peterboro) there as well as Scunny, Lincoln lot. Went home via Lincoln, back in Pete's (London) van. Journey made via Barrow-on-Soar (we must have dropped someone off there on the way to Lincoln & then to my home town Donny). It was a fateful weekend, as Sunday midday it was off to the last ever session @ Sheffield's King Mojo (Stevie Wonder being the live act at the alldayer). The Mojo was closed by magistrates the following Tuesday, with the Owl following just weeks later (Dec 4th).

With everyone with the right knowledge seeming to comment on this thread, it really does contain some great info. Someone should take down the info posted and turn it into a proper article to go up in the ARTICLES section of the site. That way, it could be used as a source for anyone wanting the definitive details on 1960's Detroit Recording studios / producers and their work.

I knew you'd have most of the answers Robb.

My main aim when starting up this thread was to discover how many 'out of towners' cut in the Golden World studio. I knew from my contact with Chuck Corby that his group (from Pittsburgh) cut there. But, ascertaining just which local & national 'outside acts (i.e. non GW / Ric Tic / Wingate) cut in the studio isn't an easy task. Obviously the likes of United Sound & Rainbow / Tera Shirma undertook similar work In Detroit for many acts (I believe some GW tracks were even cut @ Tera Shirma & Chuck Jackson cut there too). But which of the local 'little label' acts used GW studios -- I'm thinking of acts who had releases on the likes of Thelma, Velgo, Soulhawk, M-S, Groove City, Groovesville, Revilot, Impact, Drew, D Town, Ashford, Atac, Big Hit, Boo, Carla, De-To, Diamond Jim, Dottys, Inferno, La Beat, Kool Kat, Mahs, Sepia, etc. Are such facts known ?

A few Golden World-ers are featured here. What GW cuts mean to us & what UK NS fans mean to them ....

A few bits from US music mags that relate to this topic ... the vinyl shortage continued past July 1974 BUT for the big labels (who got the best service from pressing plants), it was mainly LP releases & LP pressing quantities that suffered the most. The likes of 20th Century Records was cutting some releases, not putting out product on lesser selling acts & not signing any new acts. Little indie labels struggled a lot more to get their product (including 45's) pressed up as they required. Which potential releases actually failed to see the light of day is very hard to determine as no record label boss was gonna admit in public that they were cutting product on this or that act. To do so was the surest way to ensure that act got out of it's contract with your company & signed a deal with a new one.

Adding further info on the crisis which unfolded very quickly during October 1973. The war kicked off on October 6th. Western countries (US, UK, etc.) soon jumped in to support Israel. On October 17th Arab countries increased the price of their oil & cut production. Nixon was in power in DC but consumed by the Watergate scandal, but he decided helping Israel in the war would distract from Watergate. So he started sending $millions / arms / etc. to Israel. Angered by this, King Faisal of Saudi Arabia retaliated on October 20, placing a total embargo on oil shipments to the United States. He was quickly joined by just about all of the other oil-producing Arab states. By 1973, US oil production had dropped below current consumption, so the US instantly had a shortage. So by the beginning of November 73, it was obvious to anyone using oil / petrol (gas) / petroleum products that things were gonna get tough very quickly & costs were going to shoot up for things like vinyl. This occured right in the pressing plants busiest period of the year (Sept to December -- to meet the Xmas sales rush). WHAT WERE THE PRESSING PLANTS TO DO .... they had multiple existing orders to meet, were quickly using up their existing stock of vinyl, were being quoted increased costs for new product + were warned that supplies would likely run out soon into 1974. It would be great to know what pressing plant bosses decided to do when faced with the above. . . just carry on regardless, meet all current orders in full & face the prospect of having no supply of vinyl left by January 74 ... or did they go back to their (favoured) clients and come up with a joint proposal to reduce the planned numbers of each 45 currently under order. That way, they'd have vinyl left & would be able to press up later releases for those same record companies. I guess they'd go with the later, as if they had 'new releases' available in the initial 3 months of 1974, when many other labels couldn't get their singles pressed ... then they'd get additional publicity for their 1974 releases + increased radio plays (less new 45's being made & therefore less sent out to radio stn DJ's). It also seems likely that they'd plump for a lesser number of promo copies of each new 45 (just enough to service music mags, radio & club DJ's) ... AND THEN ... would only get issue copies pressed up in quantity of those 45's that got good radio audience response. MEANWHILE, no doubt, there were outfits out there seizing the opportunity to make money by pulping unsold warehouse 45 stock, thereby producing recycled vinyl for the pressing plants to buy & use. So not only were some proposed new 45 releases abandoned, but lots of existing soul 45's pressed up over the period between (say) 1969 and 1972 were destroyed. Again, resulting in potential future collector's items being lost completely or being reduced to just a handful of copies remaining. For NS fans, this situation no doubt came about a couple of years too late to have a major effect on their 'rich vein of released singles' but for MS fans it must surely have reduced the number of big sounds that would become available to them.

Many of the B sides to 45's made by US pop singers are what you'd expect; pop pap. But then, they were only cutting soul flavoured A side tracks coz that genre was 'flavour of the month' through much of the mid to late 60's. So they weren't really soul acts, just opportunists jumping on the bandwagon.