Steve G

What like you don't have any American singles with solid centres then?

Thanks John I am sure that will provide a good read for the many who have not seen it. Interesting in the same issue Tim Brown mentions Joseph Webster in passing

Weingarten lights the blue touch paper and retreats.....actually this was discussed the other week......Steve

Thanks Mike - as I suspected some very midtempo sounds there and very much late 60s / early 70s - not too many obvious Mecca or northern spins in sight either.....I have re-read the article and it was this type of slower / midtempo sound that Rod was championing. So it sounds like the music played as x-over have broadened over the years, but does that mean the definition was wrong, or that the sounds originally reviewed weren't sufficiently danceable enough to sustain the interest? See you at Essence.

Later I'll put up some of the sounds Rod listed as crossover to give some additional perspective to the type of sound being championed in 1990. It is fair to say that "crossover" has expanded in it's definiton since then, probably because the venues that advertise themselves as promoting crossover tend to play a very broad range of sounds from the 60s through to some of the better more recent releases that have that 'feel'. To my ears something like "How could you break my heart" or Ed Summers "I can tell" wouldn't fall into my personal definition of "crossover", but they have of course been played at crossover venues, and maybe that's what matters.

Well great to see an outbreak of reasonable behaviour here today....and an acceptance of Parliament / Funkadelic etc. and their 60s and early 70s stuff. It is true that crossover today embraces some of the old Mecca stuff, but I think when it was originally coined it was to describe a certain type of sound. Rod's article was aimed more at the 'modern' scene reader as Gareth says, and it was a way of describing older sounds that weren't uptempo northern but still had a beat. Keep playing nicely while I go and get me lunch!

A very fair point John, and some people often forget that there is a world of interest and knowledge outside of the "club scene(s) as well. Steve

Amazing never heard of that before - northern soul top sounds - borrow for a month - if you don't see what you're looking for ask us,,,,,,imagine that today, every "hot boxers" dream

John certainly built up his UK collection again in the 80s and 90s - and why not? All those record fairs while he was selling us the US stuff he was going round the stalls and getting UK Soul / Blue Beat etc. Chris I do agree nothing more boring than a box of black Parlaphones to trawl through - especially as there won't be much soul in there Steve

Corbett, Yes "Girl ! You better change" is the crossover side. It's on Libra and was recorded in Florida. Dave T - agree with you - too much pidgeon holing going on, and yes funk is a very broad genre. Fryer - to me things like "Standing on the verge of getting it on", "A Joyful process" and even "Tear the roof off the sucker"` have always been in my definition of funk. And from the Players stuff like "Who'd she coo?" and "Fire" which I went out and purchased when I first heard it. Nothing to do with the rare / deep funk scene in the UK, and of course I know that.

Yes sometimes the UK pressing was better quality - especially so with styrene US pressings I guess! Sometimes it was worse though - I remember Rouncey telling us how Darrell Banks on London was dubbed from disc - so there even a Revilot styrene would potentially be better, and a Stateside copy most certainly would be. No hard and fast rules here, but sometimes yes that's true. I love US records for the reason Dave Greenhill says, but also love my British.

Hi Dave yes I have it on stock copy. Got it from Mr Manship early 80s for something like £15. Always had a soft spot for this record - which might surprise a few on here. I actually played it out last year - surprising how many didn't know it.

Oh yeah, forgot you're a hot boxer aren't you? See subsequent post James - still trying to explain to you that the descriptions are around the evolution of the music - not around UK soul clan and however it badges it's various groups.

The quote was trying to explain the type of sound that was crossover - how it evolved in the context of changing styles of music-exactly what I was trying to do in my description which you took a dislike to. It's got nothing to do with "the scene", it's a description of a type of music that evolved in the USA. The modern scene today is Y2k+10 so no relevance for crossover there. WHy would the modern scene look back 40 years? Back in 1990 a lot of "crossover" and 70s sounds were played at places like Southport. In the same magazine there is a playlist and people like Graeme Ellis are reviwing things like LaShawn Collins.

For many of us Chris, having a box of fantastic soul records on British labels still holds an attraction. It's where the UK scene started before imports became the norm. I also often wonder what the guys in the record companies in London were doing putting out some of the records they did. Steve

No you still don't get it do you James? As you well know there is a rich history in this music long before you came along. And when you have entire runs of Meters, Kool, Parliament, JB, Ohio Players etc albums and 45s maybe I might take you more seriously. What I said was: "The term crossover describes records that were between northern and funk tempo wise- slower than trad northern and yet faster than the funk of groups like Ohio Players, Funkadelic etc.....music made in that wonderful late 60s / early 70s period as others have said" That is a perfectly valid description of what was happening musically in the late 60s / early 70s, as to most people funk is precisely that type of sound I described. I was not comparing it to the UK rare / deep funk "scene" but "funk" in it's broader context - I know lots of people that would laugh at anyone who describes the likes of Clinton / Funkadelic etc as anything other than "funk". Of course I wasn't describing crossover as being between northern and shall we for the sake of clarity call it "deep funk", the scene you are referring to, cos clearly that isn't what crossover is. Any dummy knows that and the fact that you are trying to make an issue of it says more about you than anything else. Language evolves over time? The meaning of funk has changed? Try telling that to Bootsy Collins next time you see him. It's nonsense and you know it is.

Rod's description in 1990: "An era that for a decade went largely unnoticed save for a hard core of collectors is the late 60s and early to mid 70s post on-the fours Motown and pre disco. For years these records lay dormant,unable to assert themselves on the old 'traditional' northern soul scene, being either too slow or too obviously 70s in production or, just as sadly, ignored by the early modern scene....once the emphasis was based on uptempo (nearly) new releases like King Tutt, Larry Houston and Tony Fox. By the of 1967 the basic four beats to the bar formula which HDH had perfected....had failed......The basic trick was to slow down the rhythm and make it more jerky but still retain the atmosphere, vibes,banks of strings......The beat now tended to lurch along but it still had that snappy uptown feel. ....It was as if the music was a desperate man grasping at a crumbling cliff side, not wanting to slide head first into the realms of funk or disco. The term crossover soul originally referred to the lapping over of 60s flavoured records into the 70s, but as word has seeped out it has taken on different connotations. It is now used to describe the stepping stones being laid down between northern soul and modern soul.........With little fresh blood coming into either scene there seems to be an uneasy truce with early 70s some kind of mist-enshrouded no-mans-land". So there you go.

....But people are arguing about the type of "holdall" and whether it was authentic "Casinowear" f.f.s. We're not talking about centuries of innacuracy here (Cromwellian helmets), especially as there was such an eclectic bunch of people from all over the UK that went to Wigan. I tell you what we should get the film makers to recreate The Casino at Elstree so it's a full lifesize working replica. Will the budget permit it? Then we just need to find a slimmed down version of Russ to play the DJ.

On Hotel? Did Soul Sam buy this in the end? Wally Coco is interesting - a great dancer, but equally as good to my ears is the slower Clay Brown (same red label design Florentine) "Why you want to change" which is more like a Jamaican record in it's feel.

I am sure these will all stay very rare records at this point Marc. Mint minus Lester Tipton's? - mines only VG as I think most of the earlier ones were Steve

A good example would be Sag War Fare - originally played years ago for the crossover side, now played for the funkier dance side.

Mis-information. Somebody please post up Rod's article from Voices - it's all explained in there. Many thanks.

Hey fella, let go of your demons. I was describing the style of crossover as being the music that came out of the US before you were a twinkle in your Dad's eye - between northern styled records of the 60s and the funk of the 70s - precisely Ohios, JBs, Kool, Funkadelic etc. That style of music became hugely popular in the early 70s. Not funk? You're having a giraffe??? Nothing to do with the "rare / deep funk" scene you were / are on. Of course I know that. And when I need "correcting" by the guy that single handedly caused 1000% inflation of Buddy Cantrell on Tuska (both sides excellent by the way) by demanding a copy for 10x the then going rate, I'll be the first to let you know..... Steve

Obviously big problems in Brighton then Simon. We'd better send the Soul Police round in riot vans to break it all up. 20 clubs? Students? CD's? It all sounds to horrific to contemplate! I can remember when "Joe 90" was put out by Casino Crappics - it was massive at "Brighton Uni" nights. We thought it was the end of the world - however we survived it all, and so did those students. As for the "fake clothes" you speak of, plenty of that on display at any weekender you care to pick. It reminds me of the mod revival of the late 70s. Most of us on the northern scene at the time thought they were all toss pots, but some of them went onto become todays most ardent supporters of rare soul. Don't see how a film is going to undermine what's left of the soul scene mate.....so sit back and wait for it; and then judge it as a film. I know the producers want a degree of authenticity, and that's great that they do, but they shouldn't get too hung up about it. It's a piece of fiction at the end of the day, either good and watchable or not. PS: I'd rather students were into soul and northern than Florence & The Machine anyday!

Only if you all shout loudly and stamp your feet