Epic

I'm probaby one of the few people who have arrived on this Forum years after starting out with house music and for what it's worth, here's my opinion.

The fact is, unlike great soul records, very few house records have a really strong lyrical content- records like Michael Proctor's "love don't live" aren't a patch, lyrically, on the likes of Harold Melvins "bad luck" or any number of "straight up" soul records. There's a reason for this, house ain't soul and the greatest house records aren't trying to be soul records- even if they have a vocal.

As for being an area ripe for the soul collector years down the line, somehow I doubt it. Some of the very best vocal house tunes are nearly twenty years old now and as far as I'm aware the likes of Shalor, Ce Ce Rogers and Robert Owens early efforts only remain desirable amongst house music collectors.

I also think the "underground scene+ black dance music= soul" is tenuous. They've been many scenes that meet the underground and black music criteria but have been a million miles from being soul.... go-go, electro, hip hop, jazz funk....even techno.

Oh and I'd agree Michael Proctor sounds like Tom Jones. Give me Phuture "we are phuture" any day of the week!

That could also apply to the "sixties - only" Motown & Northern Soul collectors - I suspect that not many of them own or desire most records made by The Temptations or Isley Brothers post 1970.

I still don't believe you can create soul music using computers and especially electronic percussion. Motown records of the 60's had a heart and a soul, this music is just cold.

Agree with you up to a point Pete - however comparing Motown to House music leads me to this conclusion.

The Northern scene only plays a very small percentage of the music produced in the sixties at Motown.

There are plenty of modern dance records that do use traditional instrumentation - again the modern dance scene only plays a small percentage of countless titles which are released every week - it's all about picking the right ones. In fact much the same as picking the "right" sixties Motown tunes.

There are plenty of modern tunes with fantastic soulful vocals.

Again it is all about conceptions of the music - many people who were never into northern soul & buy contemporary dance music see northern as sounding all the same.

The one thing I love about this scene is the different angles we all take on the music.

Only last week I heard a conversation in which TTBA was described as a "Northern Soul" classic.

On here it has been likened to House.

I see it as a "New York Disco Classic".

In the glory days of Motown they made soul records with a danceable beat - this leads me to think that they must have been making "Soulful Dance " music.

Nothing really changes - only the "handles" we put on the music.

PS - Good shout on Vicki Sues version of Daylight - I've been boring people to death for many a year with the same opinion.

I have the LP - think the version is Parts 1 & 2 off the 7 inch single joined together as it was originally recorded.

Depends, could be rarity that dictates the price, it should be in most cases but it's usually what hot at the moment with the dancers and DJs. Soon as something starts getting played dealers push up the price and "DJs" will pay that bit more, rather than find their own records and maybe the next biggie

Take Ace Spectrum. It was a record you couldn't give away at one time, it sold in it's millions. All of a sudden for some strange reason it gets a few spins and it's suddenly it has a three figure price tag, f*** knows why. It's back down to £25 nowadays due to demand dropping but even that is 5 times it's value IMHO. It's a record that should never have been expensive regardless of dance floor status.

There's records that are in the £50 bracket that are harder to find than some records that cost several 100 quid and more!!! SWONS!

Back in the seventies you couldn't sell "Jeanette" - Wade Flemons for 3 quid - there was loads of 'em about. Even now I wouldn't give you the price of a pint for it!!!

Increasingly on here i see comments like, the value of this has increased because of demand, or price will rise because of demand,Just a question, if we are buying copies of limited issued rare soul, how suddenly because a record is becoming dance floor active, should the price rise usually significantly ie BETTY SWANN-RUBY ANDREWS, if the record hounds are turning up more copies due to demand then shouldn`t the price drop? just a question thats all

Think you will find records like The Futures & Ace Spectrum are cheaper than they were two years ago.

Zola - King Errison

I'll Be There - The Gems

Nothing Can Compare To You - Velvet Satins

I sold one for £425 last year. Current price could be anything between £350 & £500.

the wheels on the bus go round and round,round and round,(come on sing along)

We'll only sing along if you guarantee that we are singing along to the original vinyl.

how do you know that who ever playing the carver of an unissued track hasn't had permission?

Same as I know Santa Claus & the tooth fairy don't exist.

Surely bootleg as in bootlegin`is wrong,but not for your own self off LP or CD or 8track you own.

But if you are a DJ & you play a carver at a gig - that ceases to be for your own listening pleasure.

That Wendy avatar of yours is'nt the real thing either Chalky. The original doesn't have a Lancashire Red Rose on it for a start.

Back on topic, I agree that if its unreleased except on CD, a carver is okay as long as its not for onward sale.

To me carvers ARE bootlegs - they have been reproduced without the permission of the person who owns the rights to them.

Surely the right description is 'Previously Un-released' once they have a legitimate release they are fair game to be played out and if the DJ prefers to have them carved for his preference as long as he bought the release and does intend selling the carver these tracks should be played. IMHO.

In earlier post somebody talked about sound quality of original over bootleg - surely there is a deterioration when a CD track is put onto a carver. To me a carver is an illegal reproduction - a bootleg.

Why not just play the CD? - or will that never be acceptable?

heres one for ya...on a Cellar full of Motown ,you've got Jimmy ruffin - lucky lucky me...Vocals over the "all for you" instrumental I think its a great tune, and as far as I know never released apart from the motown cd...to think I will never ever hear this played out is just daft. is a carver out of the question ?

Bazza

I agree with the CD comment - plenty of great "unreleased" tracks on quality CDs. The two RCA CDs released by Kent have some blinding tracks on them - will they ever get played? or is that unacceptable?

The Sharon Scott tracks are as good (IMHO) as any of the big tunes played off the RCA label. Sadly not many people will get to dance to them & I think that is wrong. Rarity should never be allowed to get in the way of quality.

Yet to see anyone say "I play boots and I don't care who know's it"..

It's a RARE soul scene. Boots and pressings aren't rare. You pay to listen to rare records that the dj's have paid a lot of money for. Pay to get in and hear boots and you've had your money taken under false pretenses. I'd want a refund and then I'd want to leave.

Generally most of the scenes "anthems" or "floorfillers" have been booted or re-issued. If you were to play a record like Billy Prophet or The Anderson Brothers (& neither of them were originals) would it affect the amount of people dancing to them? Or would they be too busy running to the decks to check their authenticity?

I guarantee that everybody on this forum has at some stage danced to a record in "non-original" format.

How would the scene cope with a policy adopted back in the days of Wigan & Mecca.

Once a record was booted or re-issued it was no longer played at major venues - this was of course before "oldies nights" at Wigan.

Can see all sides of the argument- however if I was booking a top "name" Dj I would not expect him to play such "overplayed" tunes that they had been booted in the first place.

After all the "500" records I am talking about are not what I would expect a "Top DJ" to play. If he can only fill the floor with the "same old" - even if on original he's not IMHO, worth hiring.

if its who i think it is then i was once told "shes a good dj because shes good on the mike"

Lucky old Mike - whoever he is!!

As per usual the chemical side of things had to be mentioned.

Of course Russ informed the nation that the attendees were all fuelled on "Lucozade" - Priceless!!

Came out on Parallel records in America - big spin for Colin C @ The Mecca.

Ronnie Love.....'Lets Make Love' ...and it came out on Grapevine in the UK.

Think you will find it is Sidney Thomas "Look Let's Make Love" - NOT Ronnie Love

Why is their a lot of West Midland avatars on here at the moment?

Do you have to say it's great to be able to post on this thread?

What can I say Pete? - your post

"It's Great!!!"

Think we all may argue at what order these records should be listed - indeed there are lots of records I own or have heard that don't even make it into the book.

In fairness they probably represent the 500 most played/best dancefloor reaction tunes of the last 30 odd years.

Like everybody else I have my likes & my dislikes in there - that would always be the case in a project like this.

Got hit in the side of the head one night in M's by a flying copy of Murial Day!...

Whoever was on the decks at the time had said "Thats the first and last time I play that Shite!" and slat the record like a frisby........ hitting me on the bonce!..

No wonder I hate the fooking record!!...

Nine Times Out Of Ten it probably would have missed you!!!