Winnie :-)

============== For younger people to get into the scene, they have to have something to identify with. A starting point, you and Rach seem to think they just need to hear something totally northern and they should be hooked, and if they're not bugger them. Records like this lead to investigation....... where can I hear that particular sound.......what is that particular sound, and then may lead to ....... I like that particular sound. If they attend a NS event to discover more, then they have the opportunity of hearing similar (but with more quality) sounds, and may just stay. Both of you are young, both of you (I think) would like some newblood, but IMO both of you are a bit blinkered. If you want some youngblood you have to be prepared to adapt surely?? Can't see how you think she hasn't got a soulful voice Baz, you need to wash your ears out........oh and have an open mind

Because I didn't want to hijack the other thread, thought I'd start this one. It may have been discussed before, apologies if it has. What exactly sets the price of any particular record, and why aren't all the guides consistent? Winnie:-)

============ Buying may have dropped because people realise they're not actually getting DJ spots whatever they've bought, so instead of buying with an aim to DJ they're back to buying stuff they like and just becoming collectors again? Also wondering if it's in a businessman's interests to actually admit his/her business is either on the slide or actually failing. Placing the seed of doubt starts people thinking is it worth investing in vinyl if the bottom is falling out of the market? Winnie:-)

Just wondering, if someone knowingly puts something up on a public forum for debate, how can they take people to court if they recieve an reply they don't like. Would it not be deemed that they initiated the argument? Winnie:-)

================ Agree with you Neil, yet another example of the scene fragmenting through politics. In the past seen lots of posts blaming the media for the downfall of the scene, but think its more of an implosion caused by the 'greedy' and the jealous, hitting the self destruct buttons from within. Still, "Like a phoenix from the flames.........."

============= Heard this for the first time today, very impressive. Good voice and very soulful, was she on the Jonathon Ross show (TV) a while back? The sort of record that might cross the great divide, a few more like this and you might get some young people investigating the scene Winnie:-)

============= it does appear that sometimes on SS, people want to make a statement rather than have a discussion/debate. When they're taken to task, it becomes 'its my ball time...' Sad that such people don't have the courage of their original convictions, when it comes to fighting their corner and resort to threats. Winnie:-)

============= Maybe they put 5/6 CDs on shuffle? Is Anne Sexton on any new recently released compilations?

Just read through the whole thread, would have commented earlier but was away on holiday when it started. Too many nights is one of the main reasons for dwindling attendances, most punters don't want to have to travel cos they like a beer these days, so easier to go local, music policy doesn't really come into it where beers concerned Too many people know each other so when chatting/reviewing their local soul night almost always will give it a 'big up' even if it's not that good, there's a definite loyalty thing goes on. Sean asked for numbers views from promoters re: their nights, did any of them say, I run a sh*t night, with hardly anybody in? Or, don't come to my night, the one down the road is far better Doesn't happen does it, so the only way to tell is go to the venue yourself, (probably a couple of times at least) and make your own call. Too many chiefs, not enough Indians, particularly when it comes to the chiefs telling the punters what should and shouldn't be played. Seen it on here dozens of times, someone puts up a playlist and immediately it's disected, too many oldies, this has is overplayed etc etc. That basically equates to, the one criticising the playlist thinking that he/she knows best, and is very irritating to the vast majority of punters. These same chiefs also like to tell people that youngsters don't come onto the scene because they are put off by punters clothes.....absolute bag of bollox. Get all the soulies together put them in velour track suits, bucket hats, bling, sure that would be an inspiration to young people Youngsters would be mortified if we 'moderned' our outfits to reflect their own. And on this point, if punters aren't meant to wear bags etc, just what is permissable/advisable/allowed? Answers on a post card from the style gurus please Too many factions within the scene each having their own agendas, and touting for disciples to follow the one true path. If people could accept that the scene is diverse, because as a species we are, then perhaps it wouldn't fragment as quickly as it is Reading another thread last week, noticed a couple of posts about an American weekender (sorry for forgetting your names guys) And they seem to have it right, fu*k the internal politics, go out and enjoy yourselves, and don't criticise anybody else cos they're enjoying themselves differently Winnie :-) PS. Realise the youngster thing has been done to death, but do think it's relevant within a dwindling attendance thread.

============== Shane not sure if you're deliberately getting things wrong Paul didn't say anything about the playlists being outdated, and he didn't talk about current and relevant DJs, he wants a young DJ to present the show, so it has more kudos amongst the youth. I'm sure Paul has said before that he is a big oldies fan, which is why he wouldn't have complained about the musical content of the show. I'm not trying to get at you, just pointing out that there are different arguments being floated within this thread Winnie:-)

============ Made some similar points myself Rod, but to date no answers. Think there's two schools of thought running through this thread, one to do with presentation, one to do with playlists. if XFM opened a club night for youngsters and it didn't do very well, I wonder if they'd advertise it to the established northern crowd?

=============== Good post and exactly what the scene should be about

========== I agree with you Adam, most of the younger people on the scene today have done just that, but where do you promote it so that more come along. I've read that universities may be a prime target, but if they do like the music, the same problem comes up again, to hear it they have to mix with an older crowd at a traditional northern venue. And that seems to be where the idea always falters. I still think most young people want to go somewhere where they can drink and pull someone, the music being a bit of a side issue. That is of course generalising, and I'd like to make it clear I'm not putting every one of them in the same box. I'd also like to make it clear, that theres nothing wrong with that credo IMO. The northern scene has never had that particular image, just one more reason it may prove unpopular with youngsters. The best DJs with the best collections (with a couple of exceptions) are probably between the ages of 35 and Sam, what happens to them. I suppose the question is, what's the most important thing to the scene, youngblood or quality of records as IMO one may have to be sacrificed for the other to survive. Winnie:-)

========== Adam, for the current scene to be considered anything other than 'old people dancing' by the younger generation, they would have to have their own venues, so that they could set their own particular mark on it. Unless the youth start attending venues in hordes they're always going to come across more 'old people dancing' than young people. Because someone is doing back-drops, or wearing baggies should that person be ridiculed, would that really further the scene? If you read the majority of the younger peoples posts on SS, they've just as much of an attitude as the older ones. Older people (in general) don't want young lads coming to a venue in trainers, getting sloshed and staggering about. The younger people don't want to see old people dancing in funny trousers and being very serious. Where's the happy medium. For the scene to really progress these sort of predjudices have to be eradicated and not promoted by both sides, particularly on a high profile site like SS. It's been said many times this scene is about music and not how old you are, or what clothes you wear, that would be a scene for the 'style gurus' who are unlikely to stay with the scene anyway when the next fad comes along. Winnie:-)

=========== Maybe I have got it wrong Shane, but in Paul's original post he said, he had nothing against RW, and accepted that he'd given the scene a lot over the years. I'm not trying to defend RW, just saying that the music being played by Russ wasn't questioned by Paul. He went on to say, a younger audience would identify with a younger DJ, again no complaints about Russ's playlist. The way I read it....... use a younger DJ, but there's no need to change the playlists. Now I'm not saying everyone would agree with that, obviously they don't, but that IMO was the gist of Paul's post. The point was also made that looking at the blurb, it clearly isn't a show aimed at bringing the music to young people. Furthermore, considering that this station considers itself cutting edge, why did it's news page contain references to well known bands etc. Hardly innovative. I'm not criticising you or anyone else for wanting to move the scene forward, just saying that this particular programme has not been set up to do that. I'm not trying to be mischevious, I'm making observations about this show in particular. Explain the blurb they've put out and then tell me what you make of it. I'm not asking for what you want it to say, just how you read it as it currently stands. "Northern Soul with Russ Winstanley Join Russ every Sunday as the Godfather Of Northern Soul brings stories, memories and spins the best classic cuts." Winnie :-)

The simple fact of the matter is this show is not aimed at the younger age group, the blurb tells you that.......take a trip down memory lane with Russ, and that's what its doing. It may not be to everyones tastes, but at least it's an honest description. Someone mentioned Lou Pride, Otis Blackwell, and the Tomangoes, all of which would fit in nicely with Russ's show because they're not the cutting edge some require. Paul's complaint wasn't about the playlist it was about the presentation, think some of the forward thinking types are jumping on the bandwagon to put their own agenda of what the scene should and shouldn't be. Don't think that was Paul's point at all. He'd like younger DJs because younger people would identify with them, and perhaps join this ailing soul scene where apparently some just roll about on the floor in Lincolnshire and are laughed at by the 'cooler element'. Perhaps what should be put to XFM is a suggestion for a companion show, where a young DJ highlights current plays for 30 minutes, perhaps said DJ could also put on a club night, but of course he'd have to say you have to be under 34 otherwise he may be embarrassed by the 'Uncle Terrys' of this world. Winnie:-)

============= Baz, don't think I did miss your points, agreed that yourself and Paul are passionate about the scene, agreed that Russ would probably not have been my first choice to present the show, also agree that the media tend to go to tried and trusted where northern is concerned. The point I was making and it's born out by XFM's own blurb (reproduced courtesy of Chrissie's post) is that it is a nostalgia show, and not aimed at a younger audience. If the station says effectively, join Russ in a jaunt down the past, with stories and sounds of the time, then thats what it should be doing. If you're tuning in, then you know what to expect, and so would the regular audience. You keep turning a blind eye to the glaringly obvious it's a vehicle for nostalgia, which in my view represents the majority of the current scenes playlists and punters. It's not a show to progress the thoughts views playlists of those who believe themselves to be the cutting edge of todays scene. I really can't understand why you can't grasp that. Winnie:-)

========== Mark, There is no doubt in my mind that Baz and Paul are passionate about the scene and want it to progress for all the right reason, never disputed that. But I'm just not convinced that this particular radio station sees things in quite the same light, hence the reason for RW being used as opposed to either Paul or Baz. Winnie:-)

============ Thanks Chrissie. For a forward thinking alternative music site, their news page makes interesting reading. Mention of Nirvana, White Stripes, Kasabian, a James Bond film, and someone's had a baby Had heard of a lot of the bands mentioned down the side, which I wouldn't have expected if they were truly championing unknown music. Also mentioned club nights etc. https://www.xfm.co.uk/sectional.asp?id=338&b=news Also put in a search for RW and it came up with, find out all about number ones in the chart. Looks pretty much to me like a radio station that wants to become 'big'

============= Baz, you avoided the questions, why was it ok for you to talk about the dome, but not for someone else to mention Wigan/Stafford etc? If you were on the show and played 'my proposal', would you steer clear of mentioning it's origins, or where you first heard it played? I agree it's not how good you are but who you know, but haven't you also said in young DJ threads on SS, that that is something that happens on the northern scene currently? I would also suggest that if you think the majority of the current northern scene is about rarities and obscurities you're deluded. The Scene is retro, with lots of people enjoying it for the nostalgia. A few hundred people who still want the scene to progress are not representative of the majority, who are quite happy how it is, in which case RW would represent the majority. Sorry don't buy into this 'their target audience for this show is malarkey', if they were trying to promote northern as the next big thing to a young crowd, they'd do their homework and get a young presenter. I still see it as a station championing minority musical genres. Can you let me know where you got that XFM blurb, so I can read what else they say. Winnie:-)

Dave, Common sense tells me the show isn't aimed at young people. If it were then the radio station would have employed someone young to present it, so as the 'youthful' listeners had someone to identify with. Paul said the station caters for minority genres, northern falls into that category, it's doubtful that they targetted an age group when they set up the show. Winnie:-) Radio one was aimed at young people, but they still had John Peel presenting one of the most cutting edge shows on there. Trust me (and Paul) when we say XFM is most definately aimed at a young audience QUOTE(Winnie :-) @ Sep 21 2006, 12:37 AM) ========== So if I'm understanding you, you're saying play the music to the younger generation without telling them where it came from and see what they make of it? Basically play without predjudice? Winnie:-) Spot on Do you seriously think 99% of the listeners to the talked about show actually care if a record was play at x venue so many years ago, its hardly going to make them say, oh well it must be the best record in the world, they dont they will either like it or not simple as. ============= I don't dispute the stations main target audience is the younger generation, but to employ RW for this particular show, tells a different story. They're not looking to promote northen to a new audience, they're trying to satisfy an audience that already exists. Can't understand how you can't see that. A few youngsters tuning in and liking the music would make no difference, they're a business first and foremost and one which quite rightly wants to make a profit. As for the John Peel analogy, not sure it holds water. Peel was 28 when he started working for Radio 1, so he was still on the fringe of youth culture, his show was maintained because he evolved with the popular music scene. RW's show, from what Paul has said, is a nostalgic look back, if the station didn't want this, do you honestly think he'd still be on air?? For that reason I'd say the majority of the listeners to that particular show, would want to be reminded ot life back then. You only have to look at SS from time to time, mention of this venue that venue, what was played, what life was like. Threads about how a particular person got to a venue. They're all part of the tapestry. I'm not positive why you have a dislikiing for the heritage of the northern scene, but I am sure you're not going to stop people waxing lyrical about it. You happily talked about your first visit to the Dome the other day, which was what 6/7 years ago? The dome, as good as it was has now gone, it's no longer current should it's place and influence in the big scheme of things be forgotten because of that? Should we avoid talking about it to youngsters, because it would intimidate them? Winnie:-)

=========== Dave, Common sense tells me the show isn't aimed at young people. If it were then the radio station would have employed someone young to present it, so as the 'youthful' listeners had someone to identify with. Paul said the station caters for minority genres, northern falls into that category, it's doubtful that they targetted an age group when they set up the show. Winnie:-)

========== So if I'm understanding you, you're saying play the music to the younger generation without telling them where it came from and see what they make of it? Basically play without predjudice? Winnie:-)

============= As I previously said Mark, wasn't citing any particular DJ, but we both know that some would say the only way forward is to play unknowns. Playing the 'whole deal' is the way forward, but that would mean respecting our heritage. Again I'm not saying you don't, but there are some who would deny it, and claim it to be a backward step.

============= Sorry mate, but if you think any of the current nighters have the same energy as nighters in the 7Ts you're sadly mistaken. Some still have a great buzz, the 100 being a great example, but energy within the dancers..........you're having a laugh if you think that's the same. I agree that you and Paul understand the younger element on the scene, but the reason there'll never be a massive influx of young blood is because they'd never accept it for what it is, they'd want to put their own stamp on it and that would never happen. So what the majority of youngsters will do is go and create their own genre, one where they make the rules, and if the next generation tried to infiltrate it, they'd be just as protective. Winnie:-)