Winnie :-)

=========== I've become a lot less symetrical as time has progressed

============== Not sure who this is aimed at, but would like to reiterate I was asking questions, not reflecting my own viewpoint Winnie:-)

============= You could be right

=============== He doesn't dance but he's always jigging about behind the decks Not saying it does matter or not, just saying that dancing may be considered secondary by some DJs, but don't think you could ever level that accusation at a female DJ, cos in general they enjoy dancing as much as collecting. Maybe it's true men just don't multi task well. Karen asked a serious question and I think she's probably right some men probably don't consider women of an equal status, in any field, but it would be very un PC to say that. If you narrow it down to just record collecting, you can just hear some guys saying "She spends so much time on the dance floor, how can she possibly know what's good or not". I'll make it clear not all guys think that, but if you think none do..................... Hence asking does she or any other girl, think dancing may impact on some peoples ability to take them seriously as collectors/DJs As I said in the initial post, may not be relevant, just throwing something out there

How can there be more than one definition of Soul music, its a defined genre, well documented..... I suspect you like others are meaning Northern Soul Winnie, and then you are right there are many definitions Winnie normally your responses are reasoned and well thought out but I don't think you have really read my post. I am quite clear in my quotes above saying I am not talking about Northern. QUOTE(Winnie :-) @ Oct 2 2006, 01:16 PM) =========== Jock, The style of music is a defined genre, not the musicians singing it surely. Jackie Wilson is a soul singer (not just northern) but also flirted with rock and roll and country and western, where should we stand on him? Is he a soul singer, or an all rounder who happened to make some soul records? The point I'm making is, to list who is and isn't a soul singer seems pretentious and an attempt to oversimplify the genre along with setting definite parameters for something to be acceptable. Although there is obviously huge influence by style/quality of musicians on soul records the genre of soul music is defined by the singer and their voice, that's as indisputable as defining Opera music, why is it any different with soul music? I listed these people as merely examples, the etc, etc was to show they are only a small example of great soul singers. I then followed that up by saying not all their records are great soul records, so not saying these people define soul but the quality of their greatest recordings definitely do, not sure why that is pretentious, cannot think of any more effective way to show what I am meaning as definitive. And of course there are parameters, there have to be for any genre, again why should it be any different for Soul music. How people interpret these parameters is the burning question, but again using the analogy of Opera there is only so far they can be moved without actually re-defining the genre. There is enough truly great soul music to render any changes to definition pointless and meaningless in my opinion. QUOTE(Winnie :-) @ Oct 2 2006, 01:16 PM) The Amy Winehouse record is a typical example, yes there are recording artists who didn't get recognition back in the 6Ts and 7Ts, but I'm not sure how they should get preference over artists performing today, as put forward by another poster. And I didn't say only 6TS and 7ts, currently I buy almost exclusively new music made in current year and a fair bit of vocal house, all which fits the parameters of soul music in my opinion. My point is this music should get precedence over Amy Winehouse, again talking about the Soul world not the Northern Scene, I don't think they will be to everyones taste here as it is fairly contemporary so I don't think everyone should like it, but its indisputably soul to me, whether its as timeless as the stuff made in 60;s/70's is another matter and for another thread. QUOTE(Winnie :-) @ Oct 2 2006, 01:16 PM) It does seem that some have such pre-conceived ideas on soul music and it sometimes appears they've read a book called the true definition of soul music. If so I wish they'd pass it round so I wouldn't feel so far out of sync Winnie:-) Again I don't get this, of course you need pre-conceived ideas of any genre, but especially soul music, how else do you define it? And as it has to be all about the style of vocals then not many books can convey this, however I am happy to do you a CD (will be next week), there wont be any Northern on it, probably lots of old music but hopefully once you have heard it you will understand my point perfectly. Not that I expect you to agree with it!!! If you do want to read books about history of soul then suggest you start with these Charles Keil - Urban Blues Michael Harambolos - From Blues to Soul In America, Leroi Jones - Blues People. The first 2 actually only touch on soul, the third is actually about jazz but to me they explain the evolution of soul and cultural conditions that created it better than any other. Don't normally get into these debates, normally just cut and run but since I seem to have started it thought I should contribute. Now off to play some Techno ! Cheers Jock PS Realise you were only being sarcastic re books but thought I would live up to the soulier than thou sanctimonious git criticisms I now expect!! =================== Bloody hell Jock, didn't expect such a long explanation, but thank you (and I'm not being sarcastic) I'll try and explain my viewpoint a little better. Soul music to me doesn't have definite perameters, because I can accept pop music can be soulful, for instance Motown, pop after all just means popular and soul music has definitely had moments in the sun. I know you're not talking specifically about northern, and neither am I. I like the Amy Winehouse record, but not sure I'd expect or want to hear it at a nighter, but it would still fall within my definition of a soulful sound. I also think Janis Joplin had soul, and one I've been castigated for before, broken dream by Python Lee Jackson, I can't explain why I find them soulful but I do. Now at a guess, I'd suggest that you may not, but I couldn't accept that as an argument unless you could say exactly why they're not soulful records and even then the chances are I wouldn't agree with you. Not because I'm totally bloody minded, but some of those particular records move me, make me feel emotional, and I've always equated that with soul music. So I suppose I see it as, if it moves you, you can classify it as soul, because a particular artist has no grounding in soul, didn't have a troubled childhood, wasn't poverty stricken or isn't black to me doesn't have any relevance. I'm not saying that any of the above criteria match your beliefs, but they do match some peoples. To give an example, "Open the door to your heart", for me the best version is by Doni Burdick for some reason it moves me more than the traditional versions, something in his voice, maybe the phrasing, I'm just not sure, but it does it for me everytime and I think it's really soulful. I'm just trying to say the music can't be that inflexible, that I should have to discard something because it doesn't fit certain peoples views. I'm sure soul was never meant to be so rigid, certainly I don't think my soul was made that way. Hope this explains to a degree what I mean Winnie:-)

=============== Not sure it's particularly relevant Karen, but noticed that most of the girls who DJ/Collect, mentioned through the thread also dance do you think that may lead to females having a better understanding of what the dancefloor wants?

============ Was just thinking of PM'n Mike and asking whether a section for current releases might help, but then realised it probably wouldn't because we'd still be in the realms of who decides what is soulful. Does seem a bit of a general consensus that white people can't sing soulfully, personally I think its a bit of a misconception, but each to their own

Love on a mountain top Love machine

============== So it's rational to say, this subject should be in freebasing as it isn't soul?? Don't you think thats detrimental to the original thread starter and doesn't promote discussion. In a single line you've dismissed the record given your opinion and asked for the topic to be moved. Sorry but that comes across as arrogant. Doesn't seem you're accepting someones opinion that its a soul record in your first post. That of course is your prerogative, but it's certainly not respecting someones opinion in my view. Of course the forum is set up to debate, but not to stipulate otherwise those with different views no longer have a platform if they go against the company line. As regarding my 'self inflated' reply, you ended the post I replied to with 'Thanks for pointing that out', clearly being sarcastic which is why I responded in kind. Your post didn't seem to indicate you respected my view and I've always been taught to treat like with like. Winnie:-)

================ Sorry but it's ridiculous to say no Glasweigan could be a soul singer. The criteria for northern is it's danceable, but that doesn't extend to all soul music. To cite Jock and Sean as people who actually take the time to listen to music is all very well, but to then say "some" just look for a certain criteria indicates that the "some" don't have an understanding of soul music, which is a short-sighted view to say the least. One of the biggests re-occurring threads on here is how do we attract youngsters to the scene, and these blinkered "we know best posts" are a far bigger threat to their involvement than a million pairs of baggy trousers.

=========== Jock, The style of music is a defined genre, not the musicians singing it surely. Jackie Wilson is a soul singer (not just northern) but also flirted with rock and roll and country and western, where should we stand on him? Is he a soul singer, or an all rounder who happened to make some soul records? The point I'm making is, to list who is and isn't a soul singer seems pretentious and an attempt to oversimplify the genre along with setting definite perameters for something to be acceptable. The Amy Winehouse record is a typical example, yes there are recording artists who didn't get recognition back in the 6Ts and 7Ts, but I'm not sure how they should get preference over artists performing today, as put forward by another poster. What you find soulful, and what I find soulful, may differ, I'm happy to accept that, because we may have different tastes, why therefore, do we have to put things into such a small box? It does seem that some have such pre-concieved ideas on soul music and it sometimes appears they've read a book called the true definition of soul music. If so I wish they'd pass it round so I wouldn't feel so far out of sync Winnie:-)

============ That's ok, will always try to help the self inflated

================ Bloody Chalky

============ Yep also quite like it

=========== Totally agree with the above. Smacks of peer pressure, can't say I like it if XXX says it's not soul/not good etc etc

================= Silly statement! Doubt very much you have the monopoly on the definition of soul........bit of a blinkered view IMO. Winnie:-)

=============== Pay Sean in frequent flyer miles

============ Soz, was early in the morning, I was looking for a link to something that was on channel 4 and thought you'd forgotten to add it. Once again apologies

============ Saw what?

========== That's the closest I've come to seeing "Don't panic Mr Mainwaring"

closing this thread, cos the other one running along side is answering most of the questions

================ I don't think so

=========== Just about the perfect answer

============== I did say seem to think As for making connections, everyone starts somewhere, you hear a particular style of record and investigate. It would only take a couple of DJ's to champion it, and say something like "Its in the style of......" and it might foster some interest? Don't think that's beyond the realms of possibility? As Baz said the youngsters coming onto the scene has been done over and over, but no solutions as yet. I think that with more positive feedback from established soulies this just may be a way forward

================= Agree it's been done to death, but I don't think it's going to go away As for the record, I think it's really good