Davenpete

I think you WILL start seeing people (like me) start sniffing around buying again (especially as many have said) now that there is a lot of quality stuff at more sensible prices kicking around - who cares about the sheep's goldrush stuff (we've ALL had a fair amount of it when it wasn't insanely overpriced)... Apart of course from the ones it still hurts not to have - will get em sometime.

Bought my first half dozen records in about 4 years this month (despite the fact I deliberately don't have my record player set up at the mo as playing em causes the need to go out more than my business will allow - and with a deaf ear turned to the grumbling noises coming from the boss' chair), expect I'll be picking up more - still amazed how pricey a lot of the long term quality £5-10 jobbies I have/have had have now risen to though (must be my amazing record picking talent of 15 years ago of course ).

Dave

You can try a weak white spirit solution this will work on the record,on the kitchen window car polish,If that dont work try Acetone (nail varnish remover)

Kev.

White spirit is in fact a light oil and as such can leabe grease stains. Acetone is also a solvent to printing ink so is a no-no.

Dave

Paul Anka, Bell Boys, Rufus Lumly, 7 Dwarves, Beverly Anne, Levi Jackson, Dean Parrish. You get the idea.

ROD

Those were the days

Dave

Petrol Lighter Fluid - it's what we have always used in the design business (where cut and paste artwork meant we had to do A LOT of this). You don't need to rub (which may damage the paper surface and ink) just soak it well and dab it away with a tissue.

Lighter fuel is also fab for degreasing/removing finger prints off records - and doesn't touch the vinyl (be wary of using on EmiDiscs/Acetates though).

DON'T use TCE / Genclean though as it's an ink solvent (think it's now banned anyway).

Dave

FFS get the St Georges cross out and burn a few of these honky Americans on it, sacrifice them in the name of the UK England who saved the ass of those Black Boys in America and brought that music home!!

Sorry Dave no 2 (i.e. not Mr, Rimmer) what a pile of pathetic trash you have written, xenophobia with a liberal touch on it, why not generalise a little more and say all Americans are stupid.

I would suggest 95%, and yes it is a guess, of the Northern scene today, and large chunks of the past don't give a flying f**k about the history of the artists, the music, the culture or any of the politics that make up the world that created Soul music, they like the Northern Soul scene and records, period. A very different proposition. That is evidenced daily on here. I would suggest there is a similar proportion of people on the Northern scene as there is in real life, which is far greater in this country than people will admit or see, are racists, so don't make out our "scene" is completely whiter than white, pardon the pun. Making such a sweeping statement about white America just shows how little you have actually thought about that statement.

Dave No 1 (i.e. that is Mr Rimmer) I am completely amazed at your statement. Is there anyone else on this site, and possibly out of thius site, that is doing more to record and celebrate and most importantly document Black American artists than Boba, oh and actually give the artists something back? FFS I am shocked at your response given your efforts in past to do exactly that. Can you genuinely say all of this scene cares about the artists than the records?

I totally agree with Bob the first statement was a ridiculous statement, you say yourself until recently the records have been in Japan, so exactly what is the relevance of the opening statement? Or is the problem Bob has insulted the scene and must be put to right, FFS there is a lot to insult when you think about it, particularly if you want to talk about its relevance to a wider Black American music world. As for saving the records, lets not get all high and mighty here, for most of us thats all it was, getting a piece of plastic, it certainly did not return anything to the artists that made it.

I agree his comments are misguided about Europe but again its easy to see why based on here, maybe time to look outside the world that is Northern Soul and see us for how the world would see us.....

I had originally included the point that many Motown albums during the 60s had to be released with new cover with white kids on the front in the vain hope they'd sell in the southern states, but had removed it as I felt it was too involved - there are numerous examples that can be made of this type in regards to soul/black music released in the 60s and 70s and the way it was ignored by the mass media and the wider white record buying public in the states who preferred white pop mush.

As for 'don't give a flying f**k about the history of the artists, the music, the culture or any of the politics that make up the world that created Soul music' THEY DAMN WELL SHOULD - it's easy to group the SLIGHTLY interested 'Babylove' likers that go to the innumerable lightweight soul events in with the serious lovers of the music and then extrapolate that 'most' of the scene don't care about the associated knowledge - but it's like saying that everyone who bought a Soul II Soul record is part of the modern scene and therefore the modern scene is built on chart success - patent crap.

As for racism - it is TOTALLY incompatible with a genuine feel for the music - the one thing a deep love of soul should teach us is that, black/white/purple, inside we are all the same.

Dave

Dave both of you (although Mr. Rimmer)

I'm living and born in Germany and I can assure you that everybody, that collects or djs northern soul records, knows how this fabulous music came to them. Via Britain!

But I think this topic is absolutly rubbish. Who's is the owner of a cultural property? And do thiss persons have a kind of an unquestionable right to it? Isn't it nearly the same, to say in a nationalistic way that the others, out side your own country, should not be allowed to buy "your countries own" records, than claiming that the racist whites in the USA did not allow the black music to get into their culture? Isn't it just two kinds of borders you are building up? I tell you what as a cultural historian/ethnologist, it's nearly always the same with a group and the others, who are not part of it. It's always us and the others: white and black america - britain and the rest of the world. That's why nationalism and racism are not too far away from another. I don't want to say you are a nationalist, but some of your arbuments can be interpretered that way.

Cheers

Martin

I agree with you - I didn't say anywhere that other countries shouldn't have this music - I believe in spreading the word and am always chuffed to meet you foreign johnnies at allnighters.

Dx

it's a silly point, if you guys somehow imbued the records with value and somehow deserved to take them across the seas, that you deserve to now keep the records, the same point can be turned around in on itself. If the germans, belgians, etc., now value the records more than you do and will pay more, the records will end up over there, right? Your own argument works against you, right? I'm not part of any northern scene but I also hear the same argument (on here) about how younger people outside the UK in places like Spain, Germany, etc. have a bigger scene and care more about the music now, shouldn't they get to have the music too since they care more? The whole reason they're paying more for the records and they're leaving your country is because there are collectors and a scene in other places where they care more about the music now, right? The people in your country that cared about the music are getting older and care less, right?

I admit by the way that if people like John Anderson weren't shipping a lot of records from warehouses overseas a lot would have been destroyed, but shouldn't you have some basic respect for where the records came from in the first place, the original post definitely came across as pretty arrogant, it's not like you're talking about beatles records on parlophone where the records were produced by your own culture and you wanted to hold onto that somehow.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Absolute crap - every word.

HOW DARE YOU talk about caring/passion for the music - guys on the UK scene have worshipped this music their entire adult lives - time on the scene must average 30++ years (even I as a relative youngster have been going 25 years - with 10 of that weekly - and that means two allnighters EVERY weekend - I missed 22 weekends in 10 years, including christmases etc when nothing was on - when you can talk about that sort of level of demonstrable love for this music THEN you can question OUR love for the music).

As for 'shouldn't you have some basic respect for where the records came from in the first place' if you're black fair enough - but it was white America that ignored all this fabulous talent for purely racist reasons - occasionally buying pathetic sanitized white cover versions by the likes of Pat Boone instead - 'some basic respect'? Bollocks! We should have some deep sense of utter disgust with white America for this and every other offensive racist act perpetrated by your country in the 50s and 60s... And YOU should be utterly ashamed of America for failing to recognise this talent until WE did.

You may now have a scene but (despite being where the records come from) has it EVER discovered a completely new Northern Soul record that has gone on to be popular anywhere else in the world? NO.

I would say that in a market driven economy we don't have much choice about where the records go - but you're only getting our leftovers... In the 80s I knew a few of the California lads - they used to come to the UK to buy Northern coz we had it all.

Dave

Was he f*ck.

Though some of his Soul productions are stunning - that's equally true of Ike Turner though.

There isn't a single one by any stretch if you're talking earliest quotient of soul in a voice that ain't gospel on record - but how about Paul Robeson or any number of the Blues men and especially women.

On what level does Teddy Pendergrass come into it? He's only a pup (though a cracking singer of course) not being born until 1950 - he was only about 4 when HM & the BN were formed.

Dave

Flying Pickets???? They certainly look the part!!!

Isn't that Richard Searling on the far left? (can't tell for definite as i can't see if he has basketball boots on).

Perhaps we should run a competition for which Soul artists they look most like - a touch of dark tan boot polish (which I've no doubt the band will be wearing on Russ' show for extra authenticity) and they'd be a dead ringer for Edward Hamilton and the Arabians... Bet they can sing at least as well too

Dave

ANYONE

Not very much as they're the most common by far.

Dave

Thing is Wigan doesn't own the music, and this is where old Russ gets it so wrong. Wigan was just a place where we could hear the music played for a few years. Needs to be kept in perspective.

I would point out that actually Bob Kingston owns the music - well the sort of stuff that goes with this whole gorgonzola concept.

Perhaps they could call it 'Pondyland', you could start the tour with a full body search, then you could have a teapot dancing masterclass to the stomping sounds of the folky shite that was used on 'This England' and finish off with one of Russ' special candlelit processions to 'the carpark' so American tourists can get a real feel for what Northern Soul is about - once they are released tourists could proceed to the souvenir shop and the special opportunity to buy a load of rare bootlegs of 'My Heart's Symphony', reproduction signed photos of Anna Ford and genuine Spencer trouser extensions... Or perhaps they'd rather pop into the caf for a tempting selection of pies and barm cakes, sherbert dips (in very small packets) and specially commissioned official Wigan Casino liquorish torpedos in black. Of course the toilets would be an experience in themselves - and an excellent revenue source through sale of the footwear concession to Hunters Wellingtons.

Dave

Rain - Out of my mind.

Dave

The first recognised allnighter was the SCENE club in Soho DJ Guy Stevens of SUE record fame DAVE KIL

No the Scene opened after the Flamingo (which on checking up actually opened in 1952) - the term 'Allnighter' (in reference to our type of thing) was coined by the Allnighter Club that was held at the Flamingo. BTW according to Brian Rae the two girls who DJed there were playing newly released Okeh tracks on Okeh there in 63-65 coz they were going out with a couple of black GI's who were record collectors themselves, it tended to be much more soul oriented than the Scene, specially later on.

Though why has the statement been made that the Twisted Wheel pre-dates Northern Soul at all????

After all the late lamented DG used the term (arguable whether he or Mr Bellars could claim its actual invention) specifically in reference to the music being played at the Wheel (we all know the story) and from what I know of TW music, the core direction of the Northern sound was pretty well formed by about 69 (though of course there was still a fair amount of proper RnB mixed in - Duke/Peacock/Chess/Kent/Modern type stuff, not that jump blues crap)- with a lot of our stalwarts already being spun there in the last 2-3 years (some of which are pretty surprising - Brian Philips played Patti and the Emblems there for instance).

Dave

PS Don't forget the Cats too.

I for one am there for the music (when I am actually there and of course apart from the verbals etc) and as such am only interested in hearing from the DJ if he actually has something worthwhile to say - telling me what a record is if I'm (that being the royal 'I'm' - the crowd as a whole) not likely to know or some other interesting nugget - what I AIN'T up for is listening to someone grandstanding and looking for adulation coz he has just played X on XX (fill in the blanks) and wants you to be impressed - to me DJing should be about answering the needs of the floor blended with evangelising - the 'if you like that one - how about THIS that you don't know that's similar but even better' approach.

As for the 'without speech you might as well shove a CD on' view - well if the clubs you go to have DJ's that blindly play whatever with no adjustment of the playlist (as if they were just spinning a CD compilation) in reference to the behaviour of the floor and the tatstes of the crowd that are in - they AIN'T DJ's and that AIN'T a proper spot.

Dave

1.) Only buy what you like, not what other people are chasing.

2.) Try and buy records at bargain prices, if it seems too expensive, pass on it and wait till another comes along - a lot of £50 - £100 records are common, so they will turn up eventually

3.) Don't try and get everything all at once, and accept the fact that there are records out there that you will never own.

100% agree - I would say steer clear of Mr Manship's prices as they're pretty steep in my eyes - try and buy at allnighters coz you can see what you're buying (can often play them) and usually get better prices - and you can get advice on whether they're boots or the real thing, you'll also get recommendations from other collectors - whilst as Joan said ALWAYS buy what YOU like - when people know your tatstes they'll push you in the direction of stuff that may interest you.

A well formed collection is like a pyramid (sounds like the cue for a song) - A LOT of cheaper stuff (the average value of my all time favs is still only about £20-30) with a pinnacle formed by expensive stuff you just HAD to own - a collection that are merely a list of 'fancy records I want to own to impress my mates' is not a SOUL (records that after all should touch YOUR soul - sod anyone else) collection at all and rightly draws ridicule from those who collect from genuine deep love of the music.

Dave

AS a PS to JJ's point 2 - decide what a record is worth to you - DON'T go over that even if it means you can't own a copy - though you'll be amazed what comes along over the years cheap if you keep searching and checking every sales box you see (specially the little 50 boxes from guys who ain't been around for ages - I'm amazed how many records I've owned for years and consider £10-20 sounds are now over the ton - without having checked if I had them in my box for sale I'd be pricing them at £20).

hope to cya both there !! It's been forever !!

CHRIS MORGAN

Bearsoul? You'll be confusing the natives

Hear you've been seeing Ricky and Sue a fair bit - we were round there pre and post Radcliffe - next outing Nov 7th at Droylesdon.

We do hope you and your's are well - we just been head down in a shit storm of work.

All the very best

P&D

Thats an interesting point, to which in part i would agree.

What i would question then is where do the 'mini-nighter' type nights come in - i'm referring here to nights that tend to run for about 6hrs, usually ending 2 / 3 o'clock, playing a mix of music - rare, forward thinking, some oldies / classics, underplayed.

In essence, nighter type music just not for as long

That's for nighter crew who don't have access to decent 'enhancement'

Anyway, modern, oldies, newies, underplayed... If you love the 'SOUL' in the music with a genuine passion you're 100% fine by me, and there IS a place for pure nostalgia jerking oldies (even at more 'progressive' dos on occasion) - just as long as they're treated and played with respect - not simply caned mindlessly for easy success.

D

PS The pressing issue - I firmly believe 'it's what's in the groove that counts' (though I collect originals myself) - trouble is that the term often tends to get trotted out by people that actually don't care enough about the music to BOTHER spending anything on it or taking the time to track down originals (and in turn don't have the drive/passion to look for tracks they don't know that are equally as good) - this is to me the crux of the orig/pressing issue in my eyes.

There are of course numerous different interest groups and factions - though we're all of a soul bent (some of us being more bent than other ) - that said personally I'd see the split as essentially being nighter crew / soul night people - I know at least all the guys I mix with tend to not feel they get a proper soul fix from a soul night (I almost never go to them unless it's warming up for a Saturday nighter or on the way to the nighter - at least when I AM going out)... Whereas soul night people for the most part tend to have always been soul night people and usually have never been big nighter goers - (before I get shot down in flames) I would of course say there are exceptions - equally for the most part I think the really rank oldies tend to get their spins at soul nights wheres in general the regular nighter crew tend to be more wary of overplaying etc coz they hear so much soul (both whilst out and pre and post-going out) and so quickly get sick of stuff that gets spun too often (the 'I love it but I'm pig sick of hearing it' factor - which of course applies, or SHOULD apply, to excess spins of new discoveries too).

Anyway not rocket science but it's what I think as a regular who's in hybernation

Dave

Lenny Welch - Darling Take Me Back (better than Ray Pollard).

Though that said being a beat 'Ballad' they ought really to have a story rather than just be a slow(ish) paced record - so how about 'Can't Stop Looking For My Baby' by The Fantastic Four as a left field option. Or as I've just noticed Theola Kilgore - how about 'This Is My Prayer' - just slays me.

More pointless nomenclature really - how about a Crossover 60s Newie Beat Ballad.

Dave

PS Kell Osbourne? Quicksand? Sorry I absolutely detest it - it's like luke warm porridge.

Yeah "hearsay- the new underground dance show for channel 4"(1984). We were on that infamous video- me, pickle,willie mercer from Scotland to name a few, on stage in the dance comp. They interviewed us afterwards (never broadcast) & asked me "Where do you get all your energy from to dance all night ?" I says "The tunes, the crowd, the atmosphere, the soul..." Pickle, stuttering as usual, just points to some lad & says "I bought mine off him over there". Nearly pissed myself.

& those alternative scooter run niters in '84 were held at the Broadway Hotel, just up the prom as you turn off toward the M6. "Marathon 12 hour allnighters & lunchtime spinner winners" run by Keith Wilcox & Marco of P'boro Fleet / Wirrina fame. Remember it well. Some random old geezer (who nobody'd ever seen before) kept buggin' a very, very off his tits Keith Wilcox for a DJ spot with his tiny box of truely shite tunes. "Fuckin' tunes" shouts Keith every time he asks. About 6 in the morning he asks again "Can i have a spot then mate ?" Ravin' & mad pissed off Keith snatches the box off him & frisbies them one by one across a packed dancefloor "Fuckin' tune", "Fuckin' tune", "Fuckin' tune". I had to laugh.

Still braking your nose with your kneecap Rod?

The Pier - just the best place I ever went (being a mere pup).

Dave Carne

Ady Croasdell during one of his forays into different haircuts.

Dave

Would have been a damn sight easier if you'd added a link - anyway it's the Freeman Brothers on Soul - it's on loads of Motown compilations.

Dave

Sorry to confuse you I think you have me mixed up with somebody else

No problem

D

'Sam We Miss You' - Donald Height on Old Town - the gorgonzola of soul.

Dave

I dont know mate .

The temprees were on Stax and Margie Joseph on Volt IIRC

I presume this is yerself Mr Sargeant - being pedantic (since it seems to be the way on here) - MJ also relesed on Cotillion, Atco, Atlantic, Ichiban etc - we've got pretty much all her albums - she's the D'sBs. BTW isn't Medicine Bend UK yellow Stax only on 7"?

Hope you're fine and dandy - heard you were coming to Radcliffe - no show though.

All the best

Dave