purist

Des, I did just that when I ran the Northern Swap Meet some mumble, mumble, years back. I filled the place with all the serious dealers and most of the top amateur sellers, and many collectors with cash to spend and records to trade, because I charged money for tables and early doors admission, and then spent every penny of the money on advertising. I got the main dealers to put full page adverts in their lists on the weeks that ran up to it, put adverts in the fanzines of the era as well as write up's and adverts in Echoes and several regional newspapers to make sure I tried my best to reach stay at home collectors. For three months I flyered all the events that fitted the record collector side of the scene. Can't be sure but maybe 5000 flyers were put out by me, plus the dealers had loads off me to distribute. It was a lot of work, but every dealer told me they'd done very well in sales. One dealer did 1600 in sales in the first hour which is when I asked the general public to pay entry. This was on records in the 5-50 quid category which he told me were amongst the stuff he classed as unsellable. I don't remember if you came Des, but Adey had some tables? I know it worked well because all the sellers and buyers were after me to run them on a monthly basis, which was my original idea, to move it around the regions on a regular calendar. The reason i mention this is not to suggest your idea of doing it all for free is wrong, it's just that the way I did it using the money raised to ensure filling the room with the right people was a different way. If I'd heard about your and Johnny's record fair I might have come along and spent some money, but, and I'm being totally honest here, I didn't know about them, so as a buyer who regularly adds around 400 45's a year to my collection it didn't work doing it for free. I'll accept that times are different now to when I ran the Swap Meet. It was before the mass of returnees to the scene and I think we were more together then and so it was easier to get the word out, but please always let me know when and if you do any more, whether they are free or not. btw fond memories of the ones chris savoury ran back in the day @ the Cavendish which Rob mentioned earlier. I still have the thing on Soul Hawk that has recently gone popular, bought that day for 50p from a certain Mr Croasdell if memory serves. It was great fun label collecting detroit in that era. Also got a Ray merrell on the (imho) much tougher issue that same day for 6 quid, which was big money for me !! Luckily I'd managed to not give Tim Ash all my money that day, but had some brill stuff off him - happy days ! so yeah I'm always up for a good record fair themed around our music, best thing is that if you get all the dealers to go they can resolve disputes with people who only normally deal with them mail order...

The one I can't believe is the Holly St James emidisc " acetate", with what must be without doubt the worst attempt at faking up a label ever 115.87. three bids I have a great fondness for old emidiscs, they are a part of the scene's history, and act as a bench mark of a sounds popularity, but from a historic view point I generally pay a fiver maximum, and that'sif they still play decently..

There's also an issue which is a little tougher to find, but hey, I understand not everyone shares my fascination with stockers ! (back when this was a big indemander I remember the issue fetching half as much again as the demo, about right would you say ? anyone ?)

Without going digging can't remember what shade of red my copy is, pretty sure I included a picture of it in the Stafford Top Of The World CD that goldmine put out years back ? Like somebody already said it's a perfect example of rarer than the usual price would lead you to believe imho. One story had him pegged as Richard Barrett, one time lead singer of ? Valentines ? better known as talent finding/handling of people like 3 Degrees, Frankie Lymon, etc. or was the link that Richard Barrett was plugging his career only, hmm ? I fully understand the thread starter on this though - It was the enthusiastic response to first time hearing tunes of this ilk that kept me banging the Stafford drum, trying to get folk to look beyond the likes of well known Tommie Navarro, etc during the quiet years... I'd like to think there a fair few more goodies for folk to get to know/get reacquainted with from TOTW time.

Dave K, if you're classed as disabled you may be able to get a Will done for free under legal aid. I think the term is "Disabled within the meaning of the Disability Discrimination Act". You also qualify for a free Will if you're over 70 - not saying you are Dave :-) If any of you want some pucka info on things like this then can I recommend the Age Concern website. They've got a download factsheet (I'm trying to put a link to it below) and they've got no axe to grind when it comes to giving info and advice. Also they keep their site up to date with changes in the law. We got a will writing service through them years back for my mom, where they came to the house, best thing was the guy knew what questions to ask to get my Mom's thoughts down on paper and she had somebody to ask relevant questions to, like " what if the person I'm leaving this to dies before I do and I haven't changed my Will, who gets my things?" I've often thought if I won big on the lottery I'd create a Northern Soul Museum, and then we could all donate our records and memorabilia to it for future generations, so they could come see the displays of what we wore and laugh at the baggy trousers etc whilst listening to the best music ever made. My link

Years ago me and Blue Max spent the evening with Edwin, including quizzing him on his memory of Detroit Labels, music and musicians etc and somehow the subject came up of the Shades of Blue and he got very vocifierous about them. He was most adamant that it was his group and that he introduced the various members to each other, his phrase was " I put that group together". He was adamant he taught them how to harmonise properly in the current contemporarystyle, and that he wrote all their material. I was a fan of their album, and asked Edwin about it. He sang extracts of the bulk of the songs and told us how he'd come to write some of the tracks. It became obvious that this was a touchy subject because Edwin felt he should have had credit in the financial sense as well as the other sense. He really started to go off on one and as we were there with the idea of asking him to do a charity soul nite at a greatly reduced rate I hastily tried to change the subject, but he kept going at it like a dog with a bone. It became more than a little uncomfortable and ended up with him going on about how all the artists got ripped off etc. Some time later I accidentally found John Rhys and I asked him about Edwin's recollections. He told me his side of the story and it was significantly different from edwin's on many areas, including The Shades. I think in subsequent years John has written a lot of this stuff down (Mark hanson who's on here would know more I think) but when you have 2 people who were actually there telling you different versions of the story it's hard to know which is the most accurate? btw Hitsville Chalky is a friend of S Avig's so any onfo relating to him, or Detroit groups he knew, he's the best bloke to ask. Chalky stops at his house when he goes to Detroit and he gave Chalky a copy of Angelina he had stuck up on the wall, how good is that !

I know it's a long -ish time back, but when they introduced VAT didn't it exclude second hand goods? when did this change?

I think we as a group should be marking our feedback with something we all recognise, as a way of identifying who these sellers are, and lowering our bids by 20% or so ( and every time we win something we should write back to the seller to say " I would have bid 20% higher, as would all rare soul collectors but you chose to take this stance, so you lose 20% of every sale") These particular sellers have at least marked their item page with the info to say they won't play ball on charges, others have in the past told me they would, and then when they post the parcel I find they didn't. How about some letters, like W.F.H.W.C, or C.M.A.F.I.V. or D.D.R.F.O.R.W.Z. Wonder what ebay would make of it if we all started using these?

Wasn't the one in Butch's box an issue copy Rob? if my memory isn't playing me up it might explain the price difference? john

Yesterday I was digging in an old box I'd not been in for at least a year, maybe two, and just stuck records on in the order they were in the box, (trying not to look at the label, so each one would be a surprise) and the most pleasant surprise of them all was the tune that I've been singing all day. The Adventurers - Something Bad ( Is Happening ) BLUE ROCK. as one side of a double header it was an ever present in my playbox back in the Wheatsheaf era between Wigan & Stafford, I always thought of it as a companion record to The Ascots - Another Day, similar sounding, classy, soulful, quality. Perhaps they were next to each other in the 'A' section of the playbox in the 80's? I honestly can't believe how I could have left this gem alone for so long. The constant pursuit of new, fresh tunes will sadly always leave casualties. (the flipside always reminded me of The Victors, wonder if there's a connection?) https://THE ADVENTURERS - SOMETHING BAD (IS HAPPENING) - THE ADVENTURERS - SOMETHING BAD (IS HAPPENING) -

Despite what others may say I think B & P is a really tough find on the multi coloured original press. Perhaps the amount of reissues circulating fool people into thinking it's easier than it is to locate? There's lots of £ 300 rated records that are for sale every week, but I can't think when I last saw one for sale, so I'm guessing it's a long time ago ? I think your best bet is a priced offer that might tempt somebody to dig it out of a collection?

Never knew it before you posted this up. I think they're both good sides and would buy a copy. Thanks for posting !

I only did it the once, but it worked. I wouldn't do it today because I like to think I'm a better person now, but in the era I did it, I still had the dog eat dog attitude to life. I filled a 400 size record box with all these horrible sounding but great looking "mistake" 45's (mostly bought as "uneducated guesses"), then I placed a few, maybe six, decent known records amongst them, making sure I put three at the front of the box, and a couple further in just behind this first three. These weren't big money things, maybe 10-15 quid classic oldies on original labels, but nice looking on a clean demo for example. I packed it as tightly as I could, so it discouraged flicking through. I dropped into a dealers asking if they were interested in a trade. They looked at these first few including the 3 tunes placed for purpose, then asked me what I wanted. With a completely straight face I exclaimed that there were four hundred records in this box, and I knew this dealer had a nice wdj copy of a classic oldie that they wanted four hundred quid for, were they interested in a straight swap? The 'rule of con' relies totally on the other persons greed, and this dealer thought I was a mug and that they were ripping me off. The only question they asked me was " Are they all Soul?" and I answered honestly that yes they were. They didn't ask if they were all Northern Soul, but I tend to think they assumed that they were because a). I'm a lifelong Northern Collector, and . they were Northern Soul Dealers.They handed me the wdj and insisted I took away the 400 count box (which must have been worth 20 quid of anybodys money) As they used to say in the News of The World, I made my excuses and left, clutching my new acquired wdj. To be honest the dealer couldn't wait to see the back of me. They'd only looked at maybe ten records in this box and obviously wanted to go through their 'big hit'. I'm not proud of myself, just telling an old war story......

I've always loved his " Sweet Sweet Darling", and had some success with it as a floorfiller back at the original Albrighton in the 90's, yet you hardly ever hear this track mentioned because of the sheer quantity of great songs he's made. Another example of an artist suffering because of too many good tracks to choose from maybe?

Because we as collectors are record mad, I think we fail to understand the role they played to a 'middling' working 60's artist. ( I use 'middling' to mean not a one shot wonder- where music was their hobby, at one end of the scale, or a major artist signed to a major label at the other end of the scale. I think the bulk of the artists we think of as Northern Soul people fall into the 'middling' working artist category) I have five different records (I think) featuring one singer who told me that they never thought of the records as an income in the 60's (I mention the five records to explain he wasn't a minor one record artist) He said their income was generated purely from live work so they understood the need to go into a studio to record these tracks to use as adverts for club and concert hall owners, but because it was all arranged by their managers & money men they didn't get involved. After all, the likely sales probably didn't cover the costs, so the artist didn't want to get stuck with bills for studio costs etc. They signed away their rights because they knew they didn't have the money, and they needed to concentrate on paying their rent & feeding themselves and their families. It's quite common for artists found in recent years to ask to see your vinyl as they've never seen their own records, and we hear them say phrases like " I didn't know it had ever been released" or " I don't remember recording that flipside". Groups were touring as much as possible to earn their crust, and recording was sometimes arranged on the fly, in whichever suitable town they were working in. By the time the recordings had gone through the process to become finished records the band would almost certainly have moved on to and play in another state. They had to rely on the business people to distribute the records to potential bookers, and equally as importantly to promote them to the radio stations. Sales through shops wouldn't happen unless there was some level of interest generated by radio plays and other promotional methods, and while some managers would give the artist a handful of copies to give away to family etc, other artist have told us they went into a shop to buy a copy of their own record when they heard it was now in the local chart. It's too easy to forget that this was their JOB. Yes we know that some artist kept a daytime job at a car plant in Detroit for example, but most tried to make music their only job. Would it be too harsh to suggest that aside from the promotional value, to many artists the records were little more than a gentle ego boost? probably, but I'm just trying to put into perspective how unimportant the records were to the working artists, and the quantity even less so. 100, 500, it hardly matters, it was all getting on for 50 years ago, so the survival rates often bear no relation to the number pressed maybe? The other point I wanted to make is that we on the Northern Scene are fortunate in comparison to other styles of collecting, because we do get to have an idea of how many copies of popular records there are by virtue of the dj's at venues. If, for example, Butch selects a record to revive like The Flairs, then copies will surface either in the hands of dj's or in sellers boxes or sales lists/ebay, etc. and for the short window of opportunity we can make an educated guess at how many copies there are, or at least which heading they fit under, be it Rarest of the Rare, Super Rare, Difficult, Easy, Common as Muck, etc. The other guide to how rare something is, is to count how many times somebody asks you to sell it to them :-)

I'm really disapointed, having started to read this thread without my brain in gear. D'oh, How I read it was, I thought it was gonna be which era of the scene provided the best Newies - so we could have had folk argueing whether Richard towards the end of the Casino dug out the best set of Newies, or maybe the Guy & Keb & Co. era in the 80's - that certainly produced some gems, or Ady C @ 100 club ( he must be up with the best of them, for all those unreleased tracks) I liked the early mid 90's for the Newies that came to the fore then. Not saying it was the best, just that I liked it. see, if you completely misunderstand the thread, you can just answer your own thread :-) Wishful thinking, combined with too much medication...

Ken, no need to apologise mate, perhaps I should, I could definately have written it better, and my only excuse is that it was late. What I'm trying to say is my personal taste extends only to what I consider to be Northern and/or Soul, it doesn't include, for example, the whole of jazz or country and western, although I can see some tunes that fit into those categories have merit, and as we all know some have drifted into the world of northern. I wasn't saying you said it was Northern, I'm saying if any tune doesn't fit into what my narrow view of good music is, then generally I don't like it ( in other words if I like it, it's Northern. If I don't like it then it can't be Northern :-) Sorry, came over all fascist dictator then didn't I :-) My personal definition is exactly that, mine, and it should differ to anyone else's who's had a different Northern experience to me. I'm not asking anyone else to agree with my definition, neither am I apologising for it. I have almost no snobbery about my defin ition of Northern ( or good :-) From whatever date to whatever date, I don't mind. To me it's totally immaterial, just so long as it has "that sound", which is my poor excuse at not being able to put into words the core element that all northern tunes have. Folk can splinter it into categories and call it R'n'B, Crossover, Beat Ballads,Modern, Tex-Mex, Latin, Stompers, Mid-Tempo, Blue Eyed, 2K, Detroit, etc but to me it all has that 'effect' on me. That effect hasn't really changed greatly since I started collecting. (The fly in this particular ointment is when we come to define Soul in it's non Northern meaning. Will you let me off with " it speaks to something inside of me", which is similar but different to how Northern does it?) By my lights I believe that no matter who plays it, or at what venue certain music gets played, it simply cannot be Northern, so of course there are rules. I used to say the definition of Northern was simply that it was played in a Northern venue, until somebody pointed out that a number of jokes have been played by dj's who were having a laugh. Just imagine some clever sod playing Abba's Dancing Queen and using the 'no rules' excuse ( but if Abba had made a great stomper, what then? It'd be played c/u until somebody found out who it was I guess, then all the folk who'd been filling the floor to it would come out and say " Nah, not me, never liked it, knew it was european disco" :-) You might by now be wondering why I've bothered with all this typing, well it was to get to this point - I gave up smoking several years back after smoking for about forty years. In recent times I find I spend time outside with the smokers. This is not because I like to stand in the freezing cold. cold and standing are two major pain triggers for my illness. This is because some of my favourite dj's ever have programmed certain tunes that I fear may eventually drive me away from the scene. It's a shame because I've always championed newies and pushing the boundaries, right from the pre Wigan days I always wanted to hear the next hot new thing, but everybody has a line and some recent things have crossed the line. I go outside, I now realise, because it upsets me to see and hear some of my heroes doing it. ....that way nobody see's my tears... (btw Ken, earlier somebody said it sounded like a bands 'warming up the crowd' type tune and I think that's towards accurate, though it does remind me a bit like the Stafford thing on Blackjack, red label, Number 3 thingy, but without the Stafford edge if you know what I mean. I wouldn't define this as Funk, I thought Funk had to hit hard on the first stroke of the four? perhaps somebody can put me right? Is it a new definition of Funky Northern ? or is it that I just don't know anything at all, either about categories or about soul? ....I'll get my coat... I might be a while....)

Thanks for sharing Ken, always keen to hear something new, but this is not my idea of either soul or northern ( in all it's guises) so put my vote in the "don't want it, even if it's free" column, sorry mate.

Thanks Dave & Rhino, I did say to my missus "was that groovin with Mr Bloe" but she said no - any further comment will do me no good whatsoever, so I'll just say thanks once again guys...

Watching the episode about them building a full sized house out of Lego and some early years northern instrumental track came on. It's a really well known tune and for the life of me I can't think what it was, did anybody else hear it and if so can you put me out of my misery and tell me what it was? I would think it came from pre 1975 at a wild guess, poss pre Wigan? I feel like I'm trying to say Bella Delana but that's not it, or at least I think not, it's donkey's years since I heard that one?? help!

RCA red labels, not saying they were exclusively pressed there, but every red demo I've had has come from Canada-mind I've only had about four. Having said that Canada has some great looking label variations, which often get confused with the USA issues (The Canadian black Decca is one of my fave looking labels, simple classic kind of matt looking, also like the Mercury two colour issue label, so much nicer than the plain red of the USA issue) btw Does anybody else think the printers were given the order over the phone, hence the basic details being right, but the layout altering? My guess is the companys priority was to get the single pressed as quickly as possible, especially the top up orders, so it was probably all rush & hurry. I tend to assume the non standard looking label variations were from these later 'post release date' orders, but there's a story behind the bootleggers who operated in that era. There was a big net chat about this subject years back, was it on the old soul talk list?

Took me a long time to track this gem down. When I first heard it I wrongly assumed it was another unnisued Motown vault find. As far as I've been able to discover there's no USA release of this track, but to my ears there's no way this isn't an american recording. I drop it in my set at appropriate venues and it's always well appreciated, just needs more deck time from a dj with taste ! somebody who dj's should buy this.....

I noticed that the red label version was slightly longer than the orange one, so I sold my orange one and only kept the red 'un ! plus I prefered the label appearance of the red one (can't remember now, is it about 20 some odd seconds longer?)

Years ago somebody pointed out to me that every original copy of this maroon label version he'd seen had 3 small raised "blips" under the label. I generally swallow any record bar wind up's, mr gullible that's me, so when I got home I checked mine. Sure enough it had them. Looking at this scan it looks like I can see at least 2? Does it mention these "blips" in the bootleg guide by any chance ? Anybody else found these ? does it apply to anything else on the label ?