Mark Bicknell

Whos ******* The Brooks Brothers and Melvin Davis Back To Back? Oh dear me, just when I thought the bootleg thing was slowing down imagine my horror to see two of Detroits finest now out on sale at £10.00 back to back on Kingy records, a yellow design made to look like a King records release which is just taking the piss really to be honest. It took me years to find an original TAY Brooks Brothers - Looking For A Woman and Ive had the Melvin Davis Wheel City original - Find A Quiet Place for a number of years which at the time was not such a big investment but has so far turned out to be a very rare record and it was pressed back in the 70s so why do it again??????Plus I wonder what Melvin Davis will make of it when he appears in the UK next March? Is there really such a demand for such bootlegs in this day and age? and what people forget is that these and many other top tunes are available to the CD format so dont give me the old chestnut that these things are supplying a demand for home entertainment because thats total bollocks, even worse if they get played at venues because if I see anyone playing one Im sorry but I will have to say something as I can not support or defend this practice at all. The only difference with modern day bootlegs to those of yesteryear is they have no real effect on the value of the authentic originals as in the old days people would panic when they got wind of a top tune being pressed and would sell the original to get their investment back but today is very different. Records like the Brooks Brothers and other recent boots to hit the streets such as Mr Soul aka Al Scott, Mel Britt, Kurt Harris etc. are treasured and sought after by collectors and DJs so why should someone profit from the talents of someone else? There is no justiforcation for this apart from greed and the people behind such ventures can not have any real passion for the music and the ethics and ideals of the RARE SOUL SCENE. I think its time to name and shame these people into submission, its total abuse of the highest order and I only wish a few more people would stand up to these people and be counted as this has to stop. For example many of the current re - issue lables such as Grapevine 2000. Ace/ Kent etc. make every effort to obtain the correct clearence to put out their product so why dont others follow these guidelines, listen I dont have a problem with such records coming out as long as they are legal and above board. Why should a record that the likes of myself, Dave Rimmer and others worked bloody hard to track down be fair game to the bootleggers who wouldnt know a rare record if it hit them between the eyes. I suggest if people dont buy these records......well you cant really call them records can you? if there is no demand for them then maybe this will stop and stop now. Spare a thought for the artists who made Jimmy shit for these tunes in the first place and who ever now owns the publishing rights to them, I hope to god one day someone comes forward and demands legal satifaction from these people and maybe the BPI should treat this as a crime on the smaller artists and non hits as they do in litigation on their paid up big clients such as The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Bowie and all other major recording stars as if you get found out bootlegging their recordings then you go to prison its that simple. Oh and before anyone says The Artists dont see a penny of the huge amounts of money records currently sell for on the open market is a totally seperate issue and a bit like saying Vincent Vangough should have been paid millions when he was alive for his paintings which now sell for huge sums of money in the art world, yet he cut his ear off and died a poor man point being all things that are rare sell for big money its a fact of life be it a rare soul record or a work of art. You can buy a print of a rare painting but I bet you a million pounds most art collectors desire the original as record collectors do. I have a pretty good idea who is behind this as do many other people on the scene yet we say and do nothing myself included, I really hope it stops as its not my style to bubble anyone, still its been with us since the year dot as it would seem that some so called high profile respected people way back worked hand in hand with the bootlegers by promoting the records to the masses then getting kick back when they were pressed.... integrity,respect well I shit it sorry.....maybe one day someone will have the balls to write the book of books worts and all and really tell it like it is?????? I have no respect for this practice and really dont care what these people say or do to me, it would be nice for them to reply to my comments and maybe defend this current bootleg by producing written authentic permission from the owner of the publishing and I will publically retract my comments here, but I honestly dont think they can do that can they? I dont think we can insult people who attend rare soul venues with non original records being played so why the need for this recent batch of pressings? If it aint real dont play and more importantly if it aint real dont or refuse to sell it in the first place. Like I said it would be good to name and shame but to be honest it would not make that much difference really would it as this shit will happen again and again and we all say nothing, well sorry I care about this scene and really want to Keep It Real and have to comment on this bullshit, I know I dont stand alone but would really be interested in your feedback and some support on this total abuse of our otherwise beautiful scene, lastly I dont have a problem with people who wish to make a bob or two as long its done without ripping everyone else and its just that a rip off of everything we stand for. The strange thing is that both The Brooks Brothers and Melvin Davis are still very rare records and despite this new release they will still command a huge price tag if and when they come up for sale so its just the bootleg practice rather than the material used that upsets me and many other collectors. Keep It Real - Mark Bicknell. -------------------------------------------------------- 48 comments were posted when this went up they follow The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content. Poster Thread Guest Posted: 2003/12/9 13:18 Updated: 2003/12/9 13:18 name & shame game...... So the label is called Kingy! I wonder then if its Chris King who is behind it? he is well known for bootleg acetates and ripping people off isnt he? i suppose Kev Roberts wouldnt be far behind. Maybe a brooks brothers mug and keyring next eh boys. Hows about some CK/KR toilet roll. Any suggestions on a title for the bog roll? Guest Posted: 2003/12/9 15:36 Updated: 2003/12/9 17:14 Re: name & shame game...... this post has been edited by site reason: lets not go down the road of posting abuse Please keep discussion worthwhile If poster has any concerns as why his post was edited please use the contact us link chalky Posted: 2003/12/10 12:06 Updated: 2003/12/10 12:06 Hardest Joined: 2002/11/15 From: Chesterfield Posts: 649 Re: name & shame game...... As far as Im aware they were given away at the said persons Birthday party at Sheridans. Could be wrong and if so please feel free to correct me. Personally I agree with Marks comments 100%. As long as the companys have obtained the rights I dont have a problem but when some one blatantly boots a record then I hope they get everything they deserve. chalky Guest Posted: 2003/12/10 14:14 Updated: 2003/12/10 14:14 Re: name & shame game...... well another sad day in the hall of shame for the bootleggers.ie! chris king this time no doubt aboat it.no shame in hiding his name to it either. a coment they was done for his 47th birhday 47th for fucks sake.the poor guy needed another few quid to fund his jag his misss porche.if only people who buy these bootlegs relised were there money was going they wouid think twice. and one final thing.you promoters if you hire a dj and he ends up playing them.do the honourable thing dont book him again take a note out of steve wileman comments on soul source for his opening allnighter this weekend at ashby.he states djs playing bootlegs will not be tolerated.with kenny burrell & mick h.guesting along sides the sam moores .this will be a interesting night to watch. play it real tyrone Guest Posted: 2003/12/10 20:18 Updated: 2003/12/10 20:18 Re: name & shame game...... Mmmm yep this old chestnut again.Glad you mentioned the likes of Chris King and Kev Roberts on the major front of this argument cos yer damn right about them being kings of bootleggers,got thier fingers in that many pies its unbelievable,or is it? Correctly you all note this thing has been going on for years and sometimes splits the "Rare Soul" community, but opinions will massively differ depending on wich side of the fence your on or wich part of it. catagories include. The local pub/villiage hall dj.The connosiure.One of the thousend whos come back to the scene after kids n divorce and still catching up again.The dancer.The big "Do" jocks.And the list goes on.How much it affects or hurts differs dramaticly.Me i couldnt give a monkeys,as sadly i gave up collecting seriously years ago.Certainly if something takes my fancy enough ill try and find it,but not some shit copy(had enough of them of Roberts ! ) if not nearly everythings available on cd anyway.But unfortunatly there will always be a market for these bootlegs.But just remember a hell of a lot of"Big Guns" have been involved in the past.Goldmine records?? He of !! Guest Posted: 2003/12/10 20:28 Updated: 2003/12/10 20:28 Re: name & shame game...... Yes, perhaps there are more people all pissing in the bootleg pot than we realise but it still aint right is it. Thanks for your comments and support in this matter it really does piss me off, cant wait to see if someone bites on this item but sadly i doubt it! Keep It Real - Mark Bicknell. PS The Brooks Brothers may well have been a freebie at a birthday party, but its still out there on sale. Guest Posted: 2003/12/10 21:19 Updated: 2003/12/10 21:19 Re: name & shame game...... Fraid theyll be as anon as ever.Stick by your beliefs and you cant go wrong . Keepin it as real as i can! By the way saw you on some soul tv clip other day with a well dodgy red Jonathan King cap. How real is that?? jokin Guest Posted: 2003/12/10 21:26 Updated: 2003/12/10 21:26 Re: name & shame game...... You cannot deny that bootlegging is wrong. But, we should not pretend that the practice of purchasing second hand records, frequently at great expense, provides any more remuneration to the recording artists who made the recordings than the bootlegs do. So lets no kid ourselves. Ours is a selfish hobby. Guest Posted: 2003/12/11 7:42 Updated: 2003/12/11 7:42 Re: name & shame game...... i agree with that last post, yep i dont condone bootlegs, but at the same time i dont agree with the elevated prices that records are fetching because some so-called big name has played it - or for that matter a certain venue(s) is spinning it and pushing it down every ones eardrums every 5 mins to make it go big (or should i say - expensive) you only have to look at the likes of the futures party time man, ace spectrum dont send nobody else, to name but a few - not exactly hard to find are they but dealers (and some djs) on our scene are quick to jump on the opportunity to exploit us (incidently these 2 records appear to be dropping in price - so i feel sorry for those who have paid extortionate prices for them)- so what happened to a record being expensive because it is stone cold rare - NOT because it is fashionable at the moment! i know i have digressed somewhat from the subject of bootlegging but all i am tryin to point out is that the bootleggers are not the only parasites on the scene. Posted: 2003/12/14 17:26 Updated: 2003/12/14 17:26 team member Joined: 2002/8/26 From: Posts: 2244 Online! Re: name & shame game...... Quote: but all i am tryin to point out is that the bootleggers are not the only parasites on the scene. Dunno much about econimical theory and all that, but find it a bit off calling djs and dealers parasites cause selling 45s at price some are prepared to pay. After all no one is forcing anyone to pay any price, and while its a pain that it seems there are people prepared to pay "crazy" prices. Surely by their willingness to pay over the odds they are ones responsible, if there is someone willing to pay price then could argue dealers pricing is justified. Exploition? Feel sorry ? no way, when unrolling wad, they must have been aware price over the top, same as everyone else, if not could question just what they are doing buying records if not aware of value. For whatever reason they wanted that 45, they choose to pay that price, their decision. Guest Posted: 2003/12/14 22:52 Updated: 2003/12/14 22:52 Re: name & shame game...... Sorry dont like polotics, im only intrested in what comes out the speakers... but (here we go, im not arguing this is just MY view and im sorry if I am speaking out of line) If a record is rare, and there are only a few known copies, and they are owned by collectors, if its that good a record, a record that is worth dancing to, a proper hair standing up on the back of the neck Northern/Rare Soul record, you know the ones, a really good sound. Then sorry people should get to hear it, and on what ever format possible. If some tracks never got bootlegged, whouldnt they get lost and be forgotton, surely for the love of our music and for its future, that would be just as bad. I havnt wrote this to wind anyone up its just my view. And before you slate me I do only buy originals, and I cant afford the £1000 records but there are a lot of quality records under £100. that I do buy. Guest Posted: 2003/12/15 9:42 Updated: 2003/12/15 9:42 Re: name & shame game...... Good point - although i dont see the point in booting records that are a plenty - and not necessarily £100s of pounds worth e.g. Prince Phillip Mitchell, etc. But not everyone can afford to pay silly prices (a lot of them unjustified). I dont want to get into the politics either as there is far too much of that bollocks on the scene. I was actually at a soul nite last year and a young lady on the decks spun a few boots in her set - but the dancefloor was chocca, they didnt give a flying **** what label the record was on or whether or not is was original, they sounded good (cos some boots sound awful) but the promoter wasnt happy (he didnt forewarn her not to play boots though). Too much snobbery maybe? Im sure everyone wishes they could afford originals, and I know what it feels like when you have a record that is scarce (allegedly) and it gets booted or re-issued whatever, but lets face it its as they say its whats in the groove that counts and unless you keep the punters happy (remember they vote with thier feet) well loose them coming thru the doors at many venues. Those who like to promote rare soul nites - fine o.k. get on with it as I truly support such venues but it doesnt work everywhere does it. Lets just stop all this griping and get on with playin the tunes and let those who are a major part of the scene -yes the DANCERS- who we seem to forget in all these debates and argument- enjoy it! So never mind keep it real lets keep it goin. mike- Posted: 2003/12/15 16:46 Updated: 2003/12/15 16:46 team member Joined: 2002/8/26 From: Posts: 2244 Online! Re: name & shame game......reminder Just a friendly reminder, while do not need to join or log in to post We do recommend that if not a member when you post you add your name Not only does it give your post more creditbility, it also helps the discussion as other related posts, discussions, and so on can be made and even help build up community feel of site To join site and get benefits of being a member only takes 5 secs and once joined if you use the remember tick box, you should be "autologged in" each time visit site Guest Posted: 2003/12/15 19:38 Updated: 2003/12/15 19:38 Re: name & shame game......reminder Oh I give up.....whats the fucking point of having a valid opinion, fact is bootlegging is wrong, its totally illegal and is just not the done thing, as for playing bootlegs at venues, tell you what why dont all the real DJs with commitment, passion and dedication just pack it all in and leave it to the pretenders. Christ its a scene based on rare soul records for fucks sake and to suggest that the dance floor cares little about the authenticity of the music coming out of the speakers makes is simply turning the whole thing into a joke. If its that easy then everyone should be a DJ.... I do care and try to do it the right way, if I aint got a first generation USA original then I dont play it rather wait until a DJ who does have it play it. If I played a bootleg it would be around the scene like shit off a stick so why should others take the easy route?? still this was not the issue or the reason for my comments, these current boots are just for profit and sod all to do with the ideas, ideals and ethics of the rare soul scene and the collecting of it, call me a purist if you wish rather be called that than a parasite or worse. Just trying to give a voice to what is right and correct, the issue of playing pressings is another topic which should be talked about some other time. Yes Keep it Going but please keep it real. Mark Bicknell. Guest Posted: 2003/12/15 23:50 Updated: 2003/12/15 23:50 Re: name & shame game......reminder Right lets get one thing straight, if you are a Dj, you should be playing your tunes from the original format. You dont have to spend £1000s to find good dancable soul records, dig deep, use your initiative, get on to things quick before demand drives prices up, in fact do what all the best Djs do, hunt your own tunes down, yes it takes a lot of time & trouble & thats why you get pissed off when some lazy git plays your fave rave on a £10 bootleg, or a slate, when you have spent literally years hunting it down. I totally disagree with Djs playing bootlegs, the argument that says its making the sounds available to the masses is bollocks, cos if that was the case they wouldnt be pressing em up on vinyl, they would be bootin em onto CD. Any way, promoters, just dont book Djs that use boots or cut acetates of issued material. Peace, love & Soulfulness Russ Vickers. ShaneH Posted: 2003/12/16 22:00 Updated: 2003/12/16 22:00 Hardest Joined: 2003/11/25 From: Sheffield Posts: 189 Re: name & shame game......reminder I am what you consider to be new to the scene (29 yrs old and a regular on the niters for the past 4 or 5 years) and find the rare aspect of this scene to be fascinating. To be told a track you are digging for the first time is one of only a handful of copies is an extra special moment to me and I am glad to be there to enjoy it. This is one of the many appeals and it wouldnt be the same without it. The history of a track and how this original dusty 45 got from a junk shop in Chicago to a working mens club in York is part of the scene to me and I am forever wishing to hear more stories of this kind. It doesnt have the same appeal to be told its been pressed. I am not a collector and will probably never will be but rare original vinyl is of much greater interest when you have travelled 40 miles on a cold winters night. The fact that the guy on the decks has not bought his set from HMV but spent most of his adult life acquiring such gems from here, there and everywhere is much more sentimental to me. You can look on with admiration and feel like you are part of a very special scene. I am sure it will continue at the quality niters. Shane Guest Posted: 2003/12/17 1:31 Updated: 2003/12/17 1:31 Re: name & shame game......reminder Shane, youve got it mate. You have pretty much hit the nail on the head. Cheers Russ V Guest Posted: 2003/12/18 1:34 Updated: 2003/12/18 1:34 Re: name & shame game......reminder Gosh - I admit it - I buy bootlegs... and I been buying them for 25 years - shame on me.. First let me say; the rarity of the tracks and the original only policy at big nights has kept the scene going and does make them special when heard. So that is a good policy. On the other hand I think that boots/reissues have also kept the scene going because they enables punters like me to enjoy much-adored tracks at home. Whats wrong with that? I do buy originals when possible, especially if they are under £50, because I prefer them. But big money tunes are simply beyond my means (and most people on the scene I would guess). When Ive been dancing to a track for months/years, I often think "I cant wait for somebody to boot/reissue this". I really dont think Im alone in this. One thing that annoys me about recent boots is that they are being sold for £10 instead of £5, now that is greedy of the sods behind them. On this subject why are Grapevine 2000 (and often Soul City) releases £10 when Goldmine and Stardust can do them for £5? Does anybody else feel like this? As for CDs, I dont own a player, I love vinyl, my bootlegs and reissues sit alongside my originals. Why should anybody tell me what format to buy music on? On the subject of dealers, there are many decent ones out there. But lets face it there is also no shortage of greedy dealers who cant wait to inflate a £20 record up to £50 or higher on a whim - this encourages bootlegs. Concerning royalties, why not donate a certain percentage of the money you are prepared to pay for an original to the artist and writer. Finally, I think it would be a good thing to name the bootleggers - then I can send requests to them. Dave you have the originals, respect for that - be proud of them, but calm down nobodies hurting you. ST - London Guest Posted: 2003/12/18 1:39 Updated: 2003/12/18 1:39 Re: name & shame game......reminder Sorry that last line should have read "Mick" not Dave, its a bit late and Im knackered ST - London Guest Posted: 2003/12/18 12:12 Updated: 2003/12/18 12:12 Re: name & shame game......reminder "Christ its a scene based on rare soul records for fucks sake and to suggest that the dance floor cares little about the authenticity of the music coming out of the speakers makes is simply turning the whole thing into a joke. If its that easy then everyone should be a DJ.... I do care and try to do it the right way, if I aint got a first generation USA original then I dont play it rather wait until a DJ who does have it play it." have you actually thought that a good majority dont give a toss if its an original played or a boot. ive been doing do,s/niters for a fair few years and dont care what format the records on.if its good ill dance and if i dont like the tune i wont. can you really say that youve seen a dancefloor cleared because a dj played a boot and not an original,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,no didnt think so. dance floors clear because djs play shit records.simple as that. i personally think youre way off the mark by saying the scenes based on rare soul records. i always thought that its based on "rare soul music". maybe the scene that you collectors in youre anoracs are into is based on records.sorry but for me the scenes about the music,the atmosphere and the dancers.the origins of a played record are way down on my list. and how do you know if records that are played are boots. do you go through every dj,s box and examine his records befor he plays it.do you know every record they own. wayne Guest Posted: 2003/12/18 13:21 Updated: 2003/12/18 13:21 Re: name & shame game......reminder Fair comment Wayne on the count of some stuff played because it is rare - take Bobby Kline Say Something Nice To Me or Bobby Sheen Something New To Do o.k. not rocking horse shit but have u ever tried dancing to them for chrissakes?!!! Ok if u are on fucking crutches or something. too slow but played at the time cos they were rare. another one that is beyond me that is rare is Mr Soul - how the fuck do you dance to that??? nice listening record maybe, but a dancer-dont think so!! Guest Posted: 2003/12/18 16:00 Updated: 2003/12/18 16:00 Re: name & shame game......reminder Ive seen some of the top Wigan Djs use CDs. And they have been there from the early days, I cant have been the only one to have seen it. Guest Posted: 2003/12/18 20:43 Updated: 2003/12/18 20:43 Re: name & shame game......reminder ST LONDON, Respect pal, but the names Mark, respect your comments but I personally do not agree with them, you do it your way and Ill do it my way.... oh the original records issue, inflated prices etc. has nothing to do with my points, a private transaction between a dealer and collector for a genuine first generation authentic USA 45 is just that private, like I said a bit like buying an original work of art, antique etc. collectors desire the real thing is all, Im not telling you what to buy but my point was the legal issue and the get rich quick ethics of the bootlegger. Mark Bicknell. Guest Posted: 2003/12/18 22:10 Updated: 2003/12/18 22:10 Re: name & shame game......reminder hi mark the bootlegged records are only down to supply and demand. if no one bought em they wouldnt boot em.# it may be morally wrong in some peoples eyes but they have always been there and will probable continue. personally i think they help the scene as well cause it means the masses can hear certain tracks at their local soul do,s that they wouldnt normally hear without having to travel vast distances because only one dj has a copy of a certain track. wayne grant Posted: 2003/12/19 7:20 Updated: 2003/12/19 7:20 Hardest Joined: 2003/3/25 From: Stockport Posts: 339 Re: name & shame game......reminder I think this debate could go on forever. I think the point Mark B is trying to make is that he enjoys great pleasure in tracking down rare original soul records - whatever the cost - he is not bragging about how much he pays for them (Im sure Mark would like to buy a £100 record for a tenner if he was offered it!!). It is easy for someone to buy a boot and play it at a gig, and as long as they are available to buy (lets face it they are all over ebay, main dealers lists, record fairs, allniters etc) it will continue. Mark is only pointing out the wrongs of the bootlegging and he can only be right in that respect. It is frustrating to have a hard-to-find 45 and then along come Stardust or someone and hey presto! The terminology these days is lookalikes isnt it? I do get the points of availability to the masses anmd that Joe Bloggs on the dancefloor probably wouldnt know an orig from a boot and probably doesnt give a toss anyway, but it has to be said there is a real feeling of satisfaction in playing a real one on the decks. Grant JTrouble Posted: 2003/12/19 12:53 Updated: 2003/12/19 12:58 Hardest Joined: 2003/6/16 From: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Posts: 445 Re: name & shame game......reminder Im not sure many of you know me, but for those who dont I am a rare funk collector and DJ. I would like to say that I support Mark Bicknells comments 100%. On the funk scene it is generally accepted practice to play reissues/bootlegs and dub plates. In fact if you speak out against this practice you are told to stop being a twat, a snob, or an elitist and as a DJ, if you say bootlegs/reissues should not be played you will probably find yourself getting fewer gigs as a result!!!!! Without wanting to name names, even the flag ship nights and the best Djs play pressings and dub plates of rare records. Personally I find this very frustating, as I am not just a DJ, but am the kind of person who travels accross the country, and even into Europe to dance to good records (thats rare on the funk scene). However, I do have a half decent collection of rare funk/soul/crossover, and I when I find out that a DJ is playing a pressing/reissue or bootleg of a rare record that I have sat at home how am I ment to react? Well, having spent money on trains/fuel/taxis etc and spent hours in transit I am obviously going to be pissed off, frustated and disrespectful and I wont go to the night again. But even if you dont have the records yourself, should you still dance to the DJ if he/she plays bootlegs/CDs/reissues etc? In my humble, but very correct opinion, NO! If you go to an art gallary, and when you get there, there are photo copies of paintings on the wall, you are going to be pissed off and you should get your entry fee back. Shane said "The fact that the guy on the decks has not bought his set from HMV but spent most of his adult life acquiring such gems from here, there and everywhere is much more sentimental to me. You can look on with admiration and feel like you are part of a very special scene." This is the point. Its about respect and doing things the right way, which is the only way that a scene can build up loyal and dedicated followers. Perhaps this is the reason the crowds at funk nights are very fickle and you will not see the same faces week in, week out, and apart from a few dancers at Madame Jo Jos there is little sense of community. Perhaps if the funk scene had more upstanding, strong characters like Mark Bicknell then it would not be quite so disjointed, ramshackle and weak. Maybe I am wrong. and maybe Wayne is right with his comments about the "good majority dont give a toss if its an original played or a boot". All I know for sure is that if the DJs play boots/Cds/reissues I will not be dancing, and I will not travel to any night where this practice is encouraged. Rant over. Trouble. BTW. Keb and Butch have a rare soul night at Jo Jos on Boxing Day. 10till3. Guest Posted: 2003/12/19 13:16 Updated: 2003/12/19 13:16 Re: name & shame game......reminder dcp,ÃÆ’ o!cpXcp ÃÆ’¼rp4!8cpxcp ´ÃÆ’Å¡o"!Xcp¨ÃÆ’Å¡o Dcp( mpp@8`pÃÆ’¨cp)0§¯Ã" 'ÃÆ’â"š¬cp<8pbpÃÆ’¼ÃĮ’oxcode]/sUÃÆ’¿ÃÆ’¿ÃÆ’¿ÃÆ’¿!¨cpdp dÃÆ’¿n!ÃÆ’¨cp(dp 2003/6/16eAdphdp+« ÃÆ’Ã…“ÃÆ’·@dpÃÆ’¼ "opp$doÃÆ’Ã…’gppostnumr mike- Posted: 2003/12/19 14:46 Updated: 2003/12/19 14:49 team member Joined: 2002/8/26 From: Posts: 2244 Online! Re: name & shame game......reminder no probs with deviating! though may be easier and get better response like, if post up new thread in forum on q hold it up to the light if vinyl browny color = boot Guest Posted: 2003/12/19 16:42 Updated: 2003/12/19 16:42 Re: name & shame game......reminder hi trouble i understand youres and marks points but i see it from a dancers point of veiw and not a collectors/dj,s. if im at a venue and a tune i like is played ill dance.im not to know whether its original or a boot and prob a lot of the people there wouldnt know or really care. if the majority was that bothered they wouldnt buy em or dance to em,but they pack floors and sell. dont think you could stop it happening even by naming and shaming JTrouble Posted: 2003/12/22 7:47 Updated: 2003/12/22 7:47 Hardest Joined: 2003/6/16 From: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Posts: 445 Re: name & shame game......reminder But why make look a like 45s? If it is just about making the music obtainable and affordable to the general public just put the tracks out on CD. You can get 20+ tracks on a CD and sell it for £10/20. People buy look a like records because they want to pretend to be Butch, or Ginger or Mark et al. The only reason to buy bootleg 45s is to pretend to have the original when they DJ. If people are allowed to DJ with bootlegs then what is the point of collectors chasing mega rare 45s only to be slapped in the face when they go to a night and see a nobody wanna be playing THEIR record off a bootleg? The whole issue of original rare records being desirable comes from DJs wanting new and relatively exclusive tracks to play. Just like big radio & club DJs need pre-release promos or exclusives to justify their status, so do DJs playing old stuff - the more good tracks you have that few other people have, the better you are considered. And this is right because we all want to hear new records and this competitiveness creates the incentive to find them and it drives the scene forward. If DJs are allowed to play bootlegs, what is the incentive to hunt originals? There is non, and the scene will die. Guest Posted: 2003/12/22 12:30 Updated: 2003/12/22 12:30 Re: name & shame game......reminder Polotics will kill the scene not bootlegs.... Imagine not really understanding Northern/Rare soul, being new to it, youve gone to a couple of dos with a mate, enjoyed the night think ill have a look on the internet and coming across this site, (Not this site this topic) What would you think then? Anyone who has answerd this topic has answerd it because of there passion and love of the music and the scene, dont take it away with who plays what and on what label. I understand things are important but some things are more important than others, the scene depends on everything from when you get in the car to go to a do, driving 100+ miles going through the door experiancing the night then and coming back home and talking about it, this is what makes the scene, not the labels. on a differnt note... Have a Merry Christmas and a Soulful New Year Guest Posted: 2003/12/27 15:14 Updated: 2003/12/27 15:14 Re: name & shame game......reminder Right lets kill this once & for all, you are entitled to your opinions & I genuinly respect your right to that oppinion, but Djs regardless of who they are should not be playing bootlegs, its absolutely wrong, if you cant afford a real un, then find something that you can afford to play out thats good or do what any self respecting Dj/collector does & turn detective & find one for the price you wanna pay, this subject is really past its sell by date, those of you that wanna Dj, get the real deal or dont bother, as for ex-Wigan Djs playing from CD, does it really suprise you, & it really doesnt matter that much any way, cos my idea of Rare Soul & theirs is probably a million miles apart, back in the day these guys were the bollocks, unfortunately Rare Soul to me is an exciting progressive form of music, a lot of the nostalgia events may be successful from a promoters point of view & all those people wanting to relive thier last good night at Wigan love it, but what relevance does it have on a forward thnking progressive music scene.......errrrmmmmm none. I could go on forever but really cant be bothered, if you aint got the proper release dont bother. Russ V Guest Posted: 2003/12/28 12:53 Updated: 2003/12/28 12:53 Re: name & shame game......reminder I started all this so only fair I put this baby to bed, some of you have missed my point totally as my comments really have nothing to do with the playing of bootlegs rather more the manufacture of them as being totally illegal and simply not the done thing. As for playing them, well.... thats the final insult to this very sad affair, personally I would pull the plug on any DJ doing this so enough said. As Russ V said lets close this subject once and for all as its really not that important is it? as some people dont give a flying fuck about any of this do they? Simply - Keep It Real - Mark Bicknell. Guest Posted: 2004/1/4 22:21 Updated: 2004/1/4 22:21 Re: name & shame game......reminder Only just come across this thread, but as Mark mentioned me in his original post I thought Id better throw my hat into the ring. It took me five years of searching, and £1200 (Which I financed by selling other records, I dont have that much spare cash lying about the house) to get my copy of The Brooks Brothers. Now every one can buy a bootleg for a tenner. To be honest, I have no problem with people buying bootlegs to play at home, but why anyone would want to buy bootleg vinyl is beyond me when both tracks are easily available on CD for home use. It leads me to think that the people buying the boots want to use them to DJ with. That I have a problem with. Five years work, and £1200......... unusable if someone plays the boot in a spot before me. (Not strictly true because I would still play my original and quite happily name the DJ who played the bootleg as playing bootlegs when they are DJing :-)) Yes to a certain degree its elitist, but every scene which involves collecting things is elitist. Thats the nature of competing for scarce resources. And I like to think thats one of the reasons I get bookings as a DJ, because people know I will only play originals. The comparison used early made me laugh, art galleries with photocopies of the pictures. Ive often used antiques as another example. Do you want to see genuine antiques or reproduction furniture. Obvious when you phrase the question like this isnt it. Only a complete twat would want to see reproduction furniture rather than the real thing. So to return to Mr Bicknell. I always remember him saying once, "If it aint real, dont do it". That goes for me too, play your bootlegs at home if you must, but remember every tenner you spend on a bootleg is a tenner you could have spent on a CD from one of the legitimate companies who pay royalties to the writers and artists. And if five hundred people spend that tenner on a bootleg, that legitimate company might not have enough income to put out their next CD, so who loses then ? We all, as Soul fans, DJs, artists, writers, etc do. Simple. Buy boots if you must. Play them at home if you must. Dont ever shortchange people when you DJ though, only play originals. Dave Rimmer Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 1:14 Updated: 2004/1/5 1:14 Re: name & shame game......reminder Why would any of these worry you if you were a true collector. I think this seems to be more of an elitist issue with DJs to be honest. I do feel playing bootlegs is a bit off though, given the morale code of our scene. Just be pleased you have a copy of the Tay disc, you are very lucky. Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 12:03 Updated: 2004/1/5 12:03 Re: name & shame game......reminder How many times do I have to stress that this has nothing to do with the collecting or selling of original records or an eliitist thing with DJs...... Its the moral, legal issue here which is in question and the fact that some chancer is making money off the back of someone elses talent.... and why do you consider DJs to be elitist because they choose to do it the best way they know how, is it a British trait or what to have a go at the good guys and let the shit heads get away with it...sorry I cant do that!!!!! Just because the likes of myself, Dave Rimmer who took ages to locate the Brooks Brothers and many others be subject of being accused to be elitist is total rubbish. I would rather be put in this bracket to one that cheats and rips people off for my own financial gain, how dare you insult us in this way!!!!! You think we stand up there behind the decks for fun, we do it because we love it, we love a packed dance floor and yes we love authentic big fuck off records because thats the nature of the game we are in THE RARE SOUL SCENE, a scene based on mainly rare American Soul records and yes some of them sell for large sums of money, is that a sin????? and if we choose to follow this and chase the big records to play at venues to entertain does this make us elitist...I Dont think so! I collect original records because I want too. Chuck some insults at the bootleggers and not us please, follow some correct ethics instead of having a pop at the good guys.... Dave good on you mate.. I hope your next shit rare megga want comes your way real soon..........Keep It Real - Mark Bicknell. Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 13:33 Updated: 2004/1/5 13:33 Re: name & shame game......reminder Without wanting to be too offensive, heres what I think (again)... People buy lookalike bootlegs because they want to DJ and pretend to be Butch et al. If they just "want to have the music", buy a CD! If DJs are allowed to play bootlegs, what is the incentive for the real DJs to hunt originals? The result would be a scene full of northern soul tribute nights, like the rock and roll scene, or perhaps similar to "Carwash" or "Starsky and Hutch"! A stagnant, retro quagmire. If you buy bootleg 45s you are responsible for helping to push the scene into a retrospective state, degeneration and ultimate destruction. Because without your support there would be no market for bootleg lookalike 45s. If a DJ plays a bootleg at a night you go to, ask the promoter for your money back, this will help kill off demand for those nasty, underhanded, horrible and disgusting lookalike bootlegs. JT JTrouble Posted: 2004/1/5 13:35 Updated: 2004/1/5 13:35 Hardest Joined: 2003/6/16 From: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Posts: 445 Re: name & shame game......reminder Without wanting to be too offensive, heres what I think (again)... People buy lookalike bootlegs because they want to DJ and pretend to be Butch et al. If they just "want to have the music", buy a CD! If DJs are allowed to play bootlegs, what is the incentive for the real DJs to hunt originals? The result would be a scene full of northern soul tribute nights, like the rock and roll scene, or perhaps similar to "Carwash" or "Starsky and Hutch"! A stagnant, retro quagmire. If you buy bootleg 45s you are responsible for helping to push the scene into a retrospective state, degeneration and ultimate destruction. Because without your support there would be no market for bootleg lookalike 45s. If a DJ plays a bootleg at a night you go to, ask the promoter for your money back, this will help kill off demand for those nasty, underhanded, horrible and disgusting lookalike bootlegs. JT Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 16:36 Updated: 2004/1/5 16:36 Re: name & shame game......reminder What exactly is your point ? Nobody has insulted you or Dave Rimmer. You can try and articulate it in any graphical shape or words you like, but it is elitist, and youve said it yourself. Who are you to deprive others of bootlegs and lookalikes if thats what they want to buy, maybe they dont like CDs okay. Its really none of your business. And dont try and claim the higher morale ground, its pathetic and doesnt stack up. You should try reading others posts probably first, instead of seeing ghosts and enemies. Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 16:36 Updated: 2004/1/5 16:36 Re: name & shame game......reminder Hey Guys, Thanks, youve entertained me all day and ohhhh... im glad to be out of this scene. Want to be like Butch...pmsl thats the best line ive read for years...fantastic! Bootlegs are everywhere just like dvds,cds,clothes,watchs etc etc. I used to be one of the people who would get upset and defend everything that was real about the Scene but you know what...no one really gives a F*ck. I agree that bootleggers are scum but only a few people like Mark stand up and tell the truth. Most people on the Dancefloor couldnt care less (some will) as they just wanna dance and enjoy, the people in the record bar just want to make money and sometimes rip there friends off & then theres the people who just wanna get smashed on drugs/drink and talk sh8t all night about there ex wife/husband. Dont worry about a small number of bootlegs coming from the manchester area as theyve been doing cds for years and f*ck all royalties have been paid. Yes i feel sorry for the artist/writer etc but ive seen people get upset when grapevine/kent have legally isssued 45s of rare records. Bootlegs will never effect the price of an original rare copy....people know there onions these days. Now re the Djing side...well it should be originals all the way with maybe the odd exception. The scene has lost so many great one off records to collectors who stay at home and do not go out on the scene never mind dj. Should we ignore a dub/bootleg of a record that maybe only 1/2 exist in some blokes mansion! should the dancefloor suffer cause of a moral/elitist stand. I agree with Mr Rimmer re Brooks brothers as i dont see the point bootlegging records like that...many djs have it and most people will have it on cd. There is no real answer guys & girls but if people were to walk out of venues cause a dj played a dub/bootleg then we would have many empty venues up north and down south. In a perfect world the artist would get what they deserve but we dont live in a perfect world and the Northern scene is far from perfect. Keep it real and smile,be happy and enjoy. Nice to see people getting passionate about this subject as it shows people care and take the time to write...oh ya can the people who dont sign there real names F*ck off and go somewhere else ya sad twats. carefree Greg. Ps its a great shame that some of the so called big named djs/collectors dont get off there arses and contribute to this great web site. Give it up to mick h from notts Union/CSC who went up to a dj at desborough and told him to stop playing a bootleg. Caused a verbal fight mind but was entertaining. Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 17:16 Updated: 2004/1/5 17:16 Re: name & shame game......reminder I think Mr Bicknell, Russ Vickers, admin, Mr Croasdale and plenty others know who the bootleg bandits are, dont keep on repeating yourself and just tell the good people out there who they are. You still see these people around im sure, point them out at soul nights and lets send them packing once and for all. Name the bandits today and be done with it, dont hide the names of these creatures. If i had the proof i would shout it from the rooftops. Carl.. Cheshire Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 17:46 Updated: 2004/1/5 17:46 Re: name & shame game......reminder A final note.... here here Greg and BOLLOCKS TO IT ALL. May I suggest to the person who I have offended read my original comments and you will see my point is the legal issue, oh and if you wanna go head to head on a subject at least put you name to it then we can talk ok. To be honest I dont really give a flying fuck what you think,say or do regarding this matter, if you think we are elitist then live with it, how dare you take the moral ground with me, Im trying to stand up to what is right but after all this fuck ill say nothing but when it all goes to shit dont blame me, and like Greg said who gives a flying fuck really. And what is your point do you have a vested interest in illegal bootlegs....if the shoe fits and all that!!!! Mark Bicknell Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 18:13 Updated: 2004/1/5 18:13 Re: name & shame game......reminder And finally, Ive asked Mike Hughes to close this debate as we seem to be going round in circles on this one, respect to everyones passion and feedback, Ive calmed down a bit now and would like to submit an open apology to the gentleman who expressed his opinion ie. THE ELISTIST suggestion on reflection perhaps on the outside the collecting and playing of big money rare records could come across as elitist, I really cant comment on this as I do it for me because it floats my boat and when I present Northern Soul at a venue I have do be true to myself and authentic sorry its old school is that growing up with people like Dave Greet, Ian Cark, Tony Ellis, Mick Smith etc. etc. If people wanna purchase their music on other formats such as CD or bootleg then I agree it has nothing to do with me, as I stated from the off its the legal issue of bootlegs which my comments were directed at. All I wish to do is do the best I can when DJing and take pride in my collecting and really just want to share the whole real deal is all. Mark Bicknell - subject closed. Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 18:18 Updated: 2004/1/5 18:18 Re: name & shame game......reminder Mark, Youre mixing issues and I suspect trying to diliberately confuse the debate. I have no interest whatsoever, just my right of opinion. The people who buy bootlegs have a right of choice, I personally think its nice that they can own a lookalike, its the next best thing to an original if thats what they can afford. On the legal front, by using your records to DJ and get paid, strictly speaking you probably have a legal issue yourself!! You may think youre standing up for what is right, but I think its more of a case of what suits you to be honest.... if the shoe fits and all that !!! From a collector with more one offs and rarities than you, okay. Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 18:20 Updated: 2004/1/5 18:20 Re: name & shame game......reminder Mark, Ive just read your post after submitting my last one. Thank you. and closed. Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 19:35 Updated: 2004/1/5 19:35 Re: name & shame game......reminder Now whos being elitist?????? like I care you got more one offs and rare records than me but good luck to you!!!! again this is not the issue here and to be honest i really dont care anymore plus you still wont put your name to your comments so this really is nothing more than a personal dig at me and thats very different, I gave an open apology to you and you still snipe and hide............ If you would like to talk about this further then my email is bicknellmark@aol.com I accept that you replied to my last but one comment prior to reading my last post so perhaps best we let it lie as it aint really that important and Im certainly not going to fall out over this with a nameless person - this will be my final post on Soulsource as i really can not be bothered anymore so Ill leave it to you with your one offs and rare records, no hard feelings but this is total bollocks. Mark Bicknell. Guest Posted: 2004/1/5 20:35 Updated: 2004/1/5 20:35 Re: name & shame game......reminder It was a response to your hostility, and I apologise for it too. mike- Posted: 2004/1/5 20:40 Updated: 2004/1/5 20:40 team member Joined: 2002/8/26 From: Posts: 2244 Online! THREAD CLOSED As requested by Mark Please do not post anymore to this thread! Mark expressed concern that his original meaning has been stretched and so on. Along with some of the posts from "no names" do agree with him and as such ask all not to post any more in this thread Unfortunately the comments feature is not as featured as the forum , so can not "lock" posts as can do in forum. Therefore any further posts on here will be deleted. Help us out by not posting Marks last post does raise some issues, however will post about these in forum later. Am just posting up Marks latest article in the big daddy section. Hopefully this will not be his last as myself feel Marks articles are one of the most worthwhile parts of site and sure vast majority even if dont agree with his points or views think so as well As said thread closed please do not post further in this thread here