jocko

I am not sure anyone actually disagrees on that one Sean, It seems to be the one a few people on here are arguing for but no-one against, I assume. But just in case I heartily agree with you and so should everyone else, rule no 30444 of the common sense soul rule book,

Oh Gareth I was just half way through typing response to Mr Williams & Mr Mooney saying almost exactly what you have, although probably not as eloquent and with so few swear words, I hadn't included anything about your last paragraph, which as you say is to me the real crux of the matter (which I did say at the start of this) but interestingly no-one seems to be up for debating that. Hope to see you at weekend, pint on me young man.

My last word on this as its going around in circles. Crazy thing on this is if you read my posts I haven't actually expressed a view on what to play etc etc as its been done to death, all I have done is get pi**ed off with Paul's usual patronising stance and point out the current climate is killing the progressive northern scene and justifying my view on this I have clearly said you do what you want, I am just pointing out the consequences of t his. Not quite sure why I am now this egocentric maniac, well I know why I am normally, but this thread does not in way make me worthy of that term. So I surrender. As one of Pete's proteges Harry I am sure you would have enjoyed this sort of debate in his company, what do you think he would have said to this just let it all happen attitude!

I hardly think Bidds, the venue we were talking about, is a big money making club. Neither I would imagine is Lifeline or Burnley the others I was referring to. Biggest that fits in the category I was talking about is Middleton, and I suspect due to the size of the promotion the promoters are not exactly lining their pension fund at the end of the night, so I have no ide what you are talking about. You have the right to choose obviously, but equally you have to accept your choices are killing the progressive all nighter scene, not matter what you tell yourself. The question isn't about big or small clubs, its that there aren't enough people to go around the progressive scene, Mace has said that and he has much more first hand experience than me, and therefore by starting up a night just so you can dj is just not helping it. Good luck in what you do mate, but be honest and clear in your motivations. What have expensive tunes got to do with it, this is exactly the point people are making, just buying a big bag of tunes and shoving a soul night on isnt contributing in any way to the scene. Its really not about that its about adding many more venues when there aren't any more punters and the only motivation is to get a DJ spot. My experience is a bag of big epensive tunes does not make a DJ. Sorry to be so brutal mate, particularly as you are so enthusiastic but I just think you need to step back and think about it, its currently unsustainable and only things thats going to suffer is the quality places. Are you really saying the scene you used to know was full of people putting their own nights on up against, Wigan, Rotherham and Stafford, or whenever your era was, sorry but I really dont think so.

Your post had 223 words, 201 were about how you listen to music and how you review that music, 5 words were about this post, if thats not irrelevant what is!! The Northern Scene has always had a huge core into the record collecting, chasing the next big then, playing it and moving on, which is what you obviously mean by one upmanship, if there was more of that still about it wouldnt be in the mess its in now. None of that means people dont appreciate the music, which is what you are implying, I am one of the minions but fairly happy if you want to pop round my record room some day, you will see a lot of appreciated music, all of it quality. Enjoying the ethos of the scene is not mutually exclusive to this, despite how you continually imply this,

I have to be honest the sweeping statement was sort of deliberate as I think its something that needs debated, and its interesting to hear someone like you who is promoting something different, genuinely different I believe, along the more traditional lines, putting your view over rather than a lot of armchair critics like me!!! Also a lot of your points put in context why things can't be the way that I think they should be, but what it also does, to me, is confirm what I said originally. If all these people running their "something different" soul night packed in and attended your all nighter instead, it may not add hundreds to the door but enough to allow you to have more budget to spend. To me this is the real cost of the proliferation of these soul nights, its killing the scene not protecting it, no matter what people think or want to tell themselves. May sound brutal but to me its true and people who think otherwise are kidding themselves.

What has this got to do with any part of the discsussion, where has rareity or exclusivity etc been mentioned, its debating the format of the NS scene, where have any of your points been mentioned previously. This post is yet another of you saying how wonderful you are, what a great chap you are and how crap the NS is, and how everyone into Northern has no taste and just likes big rare records, a view you repeat almost as much as our beloved local soul nights play Frank Wilson, although your repetition is much more tiresome. If you want to talk music get over the media thread, lots of NS people putting on good music, and there are hundreds of us that can talk about the music who played it etc, so stop implying otherwise, This thread had a point, deal with it, otherwise shut up with your tiresome self promoting views. Unless you have something relevant to say, say nothing. I am really getting fed up with people like you just digging for no reason and completely ill informed digs. If you don't get Northern then good, lots more not to get than there is to get, but at least be factual with your put downs. The current "scene" has lots of faults and lots of things that are worth laughing at and having a dig at, feel free to do this rather than tell us how you are the leatest, the greatest real soul lover in the world.

Cheers guys, nice to reverse the recent trend of 3 45's I had always thought of as originals having to be moved to the boots corner (small but still appreciated corner that it is!) recently due to Mr Manships peskily accurate and informative boots guide.

I forgot about these 2 but in all honesty wouldn't have counted either as think Kings Hall not part of what I am getting at and Keele is too irregular now to be in the mix for pushing new things regularly is it not. I know about Butch being choosier where he plays but would ponder the reasoning behind that, not sure its just down to him not being bothered, quite the opposite in my opinion but only Butch can really explain that. As for the expense, quality very rarely comes cheap and I doubt that the extra Butch is asking is the difference between breaking even, and if is then you are saying that Butch won't attract extra punters to make up the difference, which I am afraid is an even sadder state of affairs. Lets be honest here, I am sure what he is asking is still a lot less than a mediocre club DJ will be getting on other scenes, the wage scales for Northern DJ's is frankly embarassing. That really depends on what sort of punters you are talking about, almost all gigs I have been to in 31 years, with the odd exception, the punters have cared very much, however its not been an issue or even a discussion point at these gigs because the people going expect no less and choose their gigs carefully. Sadly a large % of these people have no more interest in todays scene because of attitudes like above, you are making a sweeping generalisation which says more about the places you go to and the people you go with than the scene in general. Trying to be nice here Di, but not really sure what you are trying to say. As I keep saying go to the right places with the right people then think you will find there are many "without sin" as you say, its not really a big deal, too many people are missing my point here and I am afraid you are one. You keep playing your records at your little soul nights and I don't really think anyone gives a jot, just don't pretend its part of the bigger equation, which is really what I think is the point at discussion here. I give in!

I am assuming Tony is meaning there were lots like this around in the 90's, at least of equal quality that you would get a lot cheaper, and if so I would concur! I am sure your new upstairs tenants at the Orwell could give you a whole sheet of equally good tunes worth looking out for! And yes we have all heard that old wanting it for a mate one Steve, trying to score a bargain by any chance, Fraser will be proud of you!

Steve you are a brave man, you have taken on the mantle in a battle that is about as winnable as Tottenham now winning the Premiership. I love the way its changed around on here nowadays, I suspect the non progressive punters are by far in the majority and shout the loudest, and have the most to gain by shouting down the "soul police***" As Russ V says you either get it or you don't, thats not arrogant just a fact. The whole ethos of collecting has been around longer than many people now shouting the odds. If you don't get it well and good, carry on but dont pretend the whole record collecting scene around the DJ's is something new, it has been around a lot longer than the current mass media frenzy where every man and his dog now runs a night and DJ's, which to me is the real issue. I think the debate should be focused on the real lack of quality and originality from 99.9% of people who call themselves DJ's now. Some of the "something different" playlists on here have me guffawing out loud. I actually don't care about the overall argument now, I sort of agree with Pete and Rod, I think its irrelevant to the people who want a progressive scene. Yes its annoying when lots on here come on banging about playing something different, but in reality its just their egos they are stoking with their monthly soul nights. How many on here recently talking about their monthly soul nights actually go to any other soul nights, never mind all nighters. I am amazed when there are people on here saying they are doing something different with their soul night but put it on a night competing with Lifeline or Burnley. Now the soul nights have taken precedence it to me is the final nail in any progressive scenes future, personally I think its been a slow death over the last 10 years but since a large number havent even been around that long I expect they will disagree I think the one very interesting point is Sean's, the quantity and quality of unreleased stuff is frightening, I would actually respect a local soul night that had the balls to make this the crux of their night rather than boring same old shit on OVO. The fact that the scene has about 6 or 7 main all nighters scattered over the year makes any sort of continuity difficult I accept. However the fact that Butch only djs at 2 of them says it all really, any Northern scene, even in current times, that can't be assed to work with him as their main DJ has lost the plot and lost all context of what the nighter scene always was, and always should be about. No matter what people say this wouldnt have happened from mid 70's to late 90's. The real problem is half assed monthly soul nights, I challenge the various promoters of such to stand up and say that what they are doing is different and why, I guarantee that will leave a very few genuinely something different progressive nights that are not just ego trips for the promoters, many of whom I bet travel no further than their county boundaries. They are out there, but few and far between in my mind. Again thats no problem if thats what people want, but in reality its just the British Legion for our generation, and to pretend any different is just fooling yourself. Its really not rocket science, and I think most people agree with Rod/Pete, given the amount of local soul nights, I really cant be assed arguing the toss about what is played at these. The one thing I do disagree with though, is if you do care its not hard to pick out the places, and more importantly the DJ's who do it the right way, and support them and let the rest of the many soul scenes get on with their life in their own little bubble. Okay, take a breath and finish the Gin. Gnight PS *** The soul police phrase is now used about a million times a day on here, generally by knobheads, IMVHO, but often by people who should know better, its generally directed at people who care and who believe in quality control, good on them, wear the badge with pride, I would. This must be the only scene where people try and ridicule those who care about its quality.

Emm what bit of above am I getting wrong, you say it wouldn't be given a second hearing if it was common, it was common for a long time and for many of us a pretty decent record without reaching true greatness. Your explicitly stating above people only like it because its rare, why shoudn't I get upset at such a slur on my, and many of us cheap record lovers, good reputation. Stick to the facts please. Probably, my laptops just died and,more importantly, Scotland won a football game, it sends us a bit crazy, since its as rare as seeing Haley's comet - thats not Bill, but much rarer, therefore I don't want to say I like it just in case..........

No, you accused people of only giving the record a second hearing because it was rare, I am pointing out there was a whole load of tapeswoppers liking it, sharing it and still liking it when it was worth £2.50, long before this other one was found. So your pompous, and some would suggest a tad hypocritical, statement above does not hang together, some of us were happy buying the £2.50 records because of what they sounded like rather than whether they were a missing number or not. And it was Rod Dearloves listing, I still have it if you want to buy a copy, think they are quite rare.

Little Eddie Taylor on Peacock who lived up to (or should that be down to) his name!

Okay I beat a hasty retreat and surrender Joan, off to try and fix my f****** laptop!!!

Andy I think I might need another one as I lent it out and haven't got it back. Yes Joan look at your hair, how come I get all the stick for my mullet which was a perfectly normal look for young man of those days (well maybe not so young!!). Sure your hubby will remember the interviews upstairs that Andy is talking about and sure he will pay a high sum to get it destroyed. And can somebody please tell that Bullying Northampton mob that the video was fancy dress, and not my normal attire Great days indeed, often wonder if the people I sold the flat too found any strange people in the cupboards. Will comment on this more, currently fighting a losing battle on other PC at moment.

Ehh, WTF are you on about. The other one is common and okay Dave says this one is different/better but it was hardly an unknown before the Solid Hit version turned up was it, surely its been a common record a lot longer than its been a rarity. And lots of us loved it when it was common so why change our minds now, maybe its just come on your radar now there is an expensive one but many of us have liked it long before that. I think theres a clear sound of pots and kettles sopmewhere around.

Is it fantastic but ILY just has something that only a very few records have, that magical ooomph that takes it from fantastic onto another universe (not one of Mr Levines ones though before he comes in here with some doomsday predictions). Think I will make this my all time favourite record..... for this week.

Yes but you will have it on 4 different labels, including a Ecuadorian potential boot and you will spend more time wondering which one to play so then we can disagree again. Dont want you getting too complacent!

Is this not one of the greatest Northern Soul records ever, Sometimes I despair at what gets played, and yes I am a grumpy git, but when you listen to a record like this you realise the beauty of this music when its at its best, and this is it at its best. Off to whirl around my record room.

Be interested to see how you get on here, I found Charlie Thomas one of the harder Loma numbers to get, but that was pre-internet days so shouldn't be a problem now!

Can't add much more than he really was a legend, totally deserving of that title. Some more very sad news, hope today stays grey to match the mood. R.I.P

I am not sure I agree with this, my understanding the oldies scene only happened at Wigan when M's opened, this was before my time, but from 79 onwards, other than the Wigan oldies night, all through the 80's and up to mid 90's there was no nostalgia scene to speak of and certainly not on the scale of current times, I seriously suspect that those into this Nostalgia scene did not stick around during that period so not quite clear on what you base the above on. I agree about the popular branding, but I think this is Matts point completely, leave the term Northern Soul to the nostalgia scene and let them "keep the faith" as long as they want to, the progressive Northern scene, what is out there, can then get on with whatever its called and then every one lives happily ever after, theoretically. I never understand this term "rare scene" that is bandied about now, I used to like the idea of the term rare soul to differentiate but suspect that term is now devalued as people seem to associate that with some scene playing the same 100 rarities over and over, not really any different to the nostalgia scene really, just likely records discovered more recent (e.g. 20 years ago as opposed to 30). To me the term rare soul should be about the quality of music, and the people, as it used to be. I am sorry but I completely agree with those embarrased at the continuation of the stereotypical view of NS, why shouldn't we be, its turned into the very thing many of us hung in there to get away from. I don't know you Brian but from what I read from you in here, I would be very surprised if when you got into this you would have been happy watching it turn into the circus that Rock & Roll was then, so not sure why you think others should find it any more acceptable now. Its been said a million times, although I think I will claim credit to saying it first, there is no one Northern scene now, hasn't been for a while. However even as someone who is a distant cousin to whatever it is now, I still get hurt watching what it has turned into and watching just how far removed from the original sense of something different it is now.

Not sure one book does all that Lady Sings The Blues probably most famous and think that may talk about her recoding history, long time since I read it. The best one for me is With Billie by Julia Blackburn, it tells her story through a series of interviews with people that knew her, most crtitics have said its the most rounded story about the real BH. I thought it was a fantastic read, really moving story of a hugely talented but troubled woman,

Other side is equally good, if not better, will post it up today with a load of Loma stuff I recorded.