jocko

I would explain it by using the full quote rather than selectively quoting half the statement, this was I think the first part of this clearly indicates he is not talking about people who do not go out, i.e. you and me by the sounds of it, but instead the people who consider themselves part of the/ Northern scene in their local British Legion style nights. It is a view I agree with strongly, the increasing number of same old local soul nights has helped kill off large swathes of the progressive Northern scene, and that is the only bit I have ever been interested in. It was actually you recently who summed it up by saying the debate should be about new/fresh sounds rather than the misguided OVO debate people always get into. I think Paul is saying something similar but saying it from the heart as he always does, almost reminds me of many people in the 80's who certainly wouldn't have been derided for having such views. Can you really debate the above full sentence, and to be fair its not Paul who are saying these people are not soulies, just that this means there is no coherent scene, a view I completely subscribe to. I should say I haven't spoken to Paul about this and therefore the above are my assumptions, I am certainly not speaking on his behalf. Along with Mr C and a number of others it would appear, I was probably still into T-Rex and Bowie then as was too young to have discovered the all encompasssing dark and delicious world of all night dances and the music that went with it. And this is the second point, based on Barry's initial heading, I thought the question was about do you have to be a Soul fan to be a Northern fan, and the resounding answer is not, in fact for many on here the connection is minimal, I don't have a problem with that, people like Pete S who are completely upfront they are Northern fans first and foremost, whatever that may be, but I do have a problem with people that listen to soul related (mostly loosely) dance music that has more in common with Pavrotti than Womack who then tell me the music I like, just because it is not Northern, is not soul, its bizarre, uninformed and an insult to the people that created this music, something I care about passionately, and I hope that makes me a soul snob, I am proud of that tag not ashamed like lots of people seem on here imply you should be. To me its all about quality control, which is what I think the point Flanny was making, another one I am completely in agreement with. And was why I made my comment. Where did I refer to the R&B crowd, it was a general comment about people on Northern scene who are leaning towards earlier stuff in quest for something new, a pattern that has been repeated by new arrivals over the last 15 years IMO, although I would accept that is a bit of a generalisation on my part. Its about people who rave about a poor mans Roy Hamilton semi-soundalike (i.e, big voiced no soul) and declare themselves into soul but then say all Al Green is pop and Bobby Womack is disco. It's a weekly occurrence on here, people mistake a big voice for a soul singer. As I say above I have no problem with people being only into 60's soul , and have never actually said that, as long as they don't tell me what is soul in the wider genre. For the record in my limited experience the "R&B crowd" that I know personally have a far better idea of the relationship between R&B and soul music being at least as picky as the pickiest soul snob on what makes a good R&B record, and most are fans of Black music, unlike large chunks of the Northern scene. (Except when they play Elvis, for which there is no forgiving.....). Its interesting that you highlight they have an ethos and don't water it down as a positive, which is actually what Paul to me is talking about on the Northern scene but you find that a negative! I have said to you before people like you deserve massive respect for what you did in discovering records on Northern scene, I am just mystified what there is to take exception in the statements about current scene. Todays world is the new look Northern world in my opinion, and its not as good, but lots of that is probably my personal apathy as well, and I am happy to admit that. I do respect what you say about not much being new to you, I am lucky enough not to be in that position and with my poor memory probably never will, which is why Lifeline, which in many ways is pushing boundaries in style as well as new music to me is the place to aim for, but only if you want those boundaries pushed..... just I am too apathetic to attend every one, which probably makes a SS fan that Joan is sticking up for thankfully! I appreciate much of this response may now have been surpassed by later answers but I took ages typing this up this morning and as anyone who knows me knows, I am not good at knowing when to shut up

And I thought everyone was ignoring me as usual, missed these replys. Thanks for information and yes Bob I agree that is the better side, I actually put that side up on refosoul but can't find it. Was toying with flogging it Mr S as have had it 20 odd years and hardly played it, but you know me I need to make a 1000% profit before I can part with anything....... Watch this space!

You really won't get 2 better double sided soul records, although you should push the Newcomers B side, Too Little In Common, absolutely magnificent and blows the side above, as good as it is, out of the water. Sure I had put it in Refosoul. Just buy them somebody and renew my faith in soul snobbery!

I did think this was Barry's initial point and was going to say exactly the same mate, except I think you are being generous with the half, I suspect its nearer 90%! I love it when somebody raves about a big voiced but little soul content, late 50's/early 60's beat ballad and then immediately follow it up with all 70's is shit! And if that makes me a soul snob, proud to be, only wish more people were equally proud. Paul S, great post, and all you need to do is read on here and see what he is getting at, its another one you either get or not get, and I don't think by any means its a dig at people who don't go out. Mr Trouble, your best post for a while, was starting to think you had lost interest in this side of things, although your DJing at Stoke does slightly contradict your argument! Ady C, your punk background, enough to drive a man to drink, I am off for a bucket of gin to forget that horrible music and the image of you pogoing, poshly....... Now all 465 different scenes can argue the toss, I am off to listen to some late 80's House.........

It's a while since we agreed so it's nice to say that you are right on above and so right on your opinion of this pile of cack, it is one of the worst records ever, and I refuse to listen to that soundclip to change that opinion, as I am sure it would. At the end of FG (can't bring myself to say the title) when he starts warbling it sounds like Vic Reeves in pub singer stylee, but worse. I think Lemon's mother was a Ma Baker type figure and GL is doing life for killing a police man in a motel shoot out, the full story is on here somewhere, so check it out as my memory isn't what it should be! I can say that the only reason for re-introducing Capital Punishment would be for all involved in this record. I am not sure I can ever remember disagreeing with you on music Mr Steele, but definitely this time. Cliff Steel and Northern Soul hang your head in shame for allowing this criminal record to escape from the depths of the 1cent bargain bin where it belongs to be banged up for life!

Aaaaaaaaaaghhhhhh Pass the chair and the rope. I cant take anymore, 2 OVO/Boot threads have sprung to life, is George Romero writing the SS script these days. Quick push the chair away, it won't hurt will it. Darkness, and no more OVO debates, I must be in heaven, whew!!

No matter how you dress this up this is a bootleg (i.e. the Lestor Tipton "lmtd run") against non bootlegs (Kent 45's) debate If you still have a desire to debate this you are either new to here, a troublemaker or an Aussie that reads upside down Please close this down now, its tiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeed.

Marco "Hoochy Coochy" Santucci (the dj name he now wants to be known as), ahead of the competition by a country mile, and yes I am a good mate but thats my ears and feet making the judgement on the last 3 relatively recent outings. Closely followed by Karl Heard, who I actually very rarely hear out but when I do he always makes me dance and smile, him and Marco recently was marriage made in heaven (just dont tell there prospective partners....) Paul Sadot last twice was on fire, probably not for every venue (and thats not a slight on Paul, more a comment on todays scene) but worth a booking for the more adventurous out there. And someone nowhere near the top of his game in my opinion, because he just doesn't have to, but still the best rare soul DJ on this planet by a country mile is Butch, a name very rarely mentioned on here, wonder why.............

Bloody hell, you are arguing semantics now. In reverse order I didn't say you were a typical little englander, in fact quite the opposite, I also didn't say you had said anything factually wrong, I said the little englander posts normally did. I was going to try and get last word by saying I disagree with your emphasis on records, but have been told that would be petty and that wouldn't stand up in a court of law, the assumption being you know better than I do what you meant asI can't produce documentary evidence, so will apologise and say I obviously misread your intents. So yes beer on me, but not literally before Chalky says anything. Benji don't worry, I am just getting in practice for what I will sound like at 7am on Sunday morning, just pray I don't try my bad German on you as poor Stefan and Tim have to endure every year at Essence. PS Benji glad to see you are dispelling even more stereotypes about Germans having no sense of humour, I totally got your irony even if lots of others didn't. Ein Weií…¸bBier von mir am Samstag. I think this is what I was trying to say, note to self, less words more meaning!!

I do not think that anyone in their right mind would say there wasn't, or indeed that there still is, racism in American society and certainly in the music business, I think however if the worst crime they did was change some album covers the world would have been a far better place in these last 100 and more years. In fact was the UK not equally guilty of doing this with album covers for certain Motown records, should we not be equally disgusted at ourselves then? My point was to make the sweeping generalisation that ALL white Americans are by implication guilty of racism and your statements "white America ignored all this fabulous talent for purely racist reasons" and "deep sense of utter disgust with white America for this and every other offensive racist act perpetrated by your country in the 50s and 60s" are at best simplistic and are almost racist in there own right. Not to mention it seems to ignore the far more obvious racist times of pre-50s, and slavery etc. I particularly suggest you find out a little more about Bob A before you throw such accusations and then apologise whole heartedly. Judging race relations in this world purely based on the music industry and your love of soul music will lead to some incredibly skewed assumptions in my opinion Taking your logic further, every single last man of we "English whites" should be ashamed of our colonial past and indeed all Spaniards should be ashamed of introducing chicken pox and horses to South America, based on your comments I think self flagellation is the only possible sentence we need to pass on ourselves. I envy your idealistic Utopian view but I really think you would struggle to prove anything like it. In all honesty I am not sure why people into Northern should be interested in the wider world than the scene, the fact there are people who are I would suggest is due to a widening of musical tastes away from Northern. Even if I am wrong, there is a huge difference in this world to what people should do and what they actually do. And no I know nothing about "babylove likers" ( I won't even make a puerile joke about Tory MP's in nappys), I think some of the comments on here on a daily basis prove otherwise and would suggest some of the most hardcore Northern people around today have no interest in the wider soul world, that's not a criticism, its just fact. I suspect based on your posts you were a child of the 80's Northern scene, as was I, and some of your views are based on that, I do not think they hold true now at all, and would be interested if you could convince me otherwise. I have never felt how many allnighters people do equates to a love of the music rather than the scene, and in that case I appreciate that certainly does not hold true for everyone but to turn that around you imply people who haven't put that amount of time in at all nighters can't love the music, think about that statement for a minute and then tell me it holds true. I think you are preaching to the converted here mate, but I suggest you open your eyes to the Northern scene of today and if you think that the scene(s) is(are) not just as representative as the outside world in bigotries (of all sorts) you are either more trusting than me or more gullible than me, I will let you choose which. I should say I am in danger of generalising here and have always believed that sweeping generalisations are what leads to "isms" of all sorts and is that not where we came in....... PS On a lighter note whats wrong with Soul-to-Soul, just because they made the charts doesn't diminish they are one of the true greats of the modern soul era (that is the post 80's soul era rather than the Modern scene attached to Northern), although think that's another thread.

I was referring to statement above which I would suggest certainly implies you are talking about more than just the records and your comment about everyone on the scene. Yes I did miss out the word more in my sentence about caring, so apologies about lack of clarity on this and my reference, it was before my morning coffee and I was still coughing and spluttering over this thread. I am sorry but I totally read into this you are talking about more than the records, and as I know you have spent massive time researching artists etc, I assumed, I think understandably, you were meaning this in first statement. I just disagree so strongly on that, as I say I think the opposite is evidenced daily on here. I also read into this that you were saying we over here did more research etc than our American compadres, which is why I made my comment about Bob's researchbut that was an assumption based on second half of the statement and apologies if I did misread this. I just feel the vehemence addressed towards Bob, which when you actually read is him just saying you could read it his way, not that it was, was totally misdirected and incomprehensible. As I say I think the first post (who has now retired and looks to be chuckling from afar at the responses) is the daftest post yet but no-one seems to have taken great offense to this. I make no secret of the fact I think more and more members on this board post little englander type posts, which I think have no place on a multi-national community, and are generally factually wrong to boot, so was surprised to see that coming over from you Dave, as I didnt expect it. However I will admit I possible was carrying that over from the initial post so may have been harsh in my judgment.

I do think this is a time when you should show us your new found maturity and stick to above! Don't make this bigger than it should be James! I think most people would find it hard to disagree with your logic Mike, sadly any real value, of which I think there was actually very little, in the membership was taken away by people fighting, which was not all one sided despite what people try and say, and in all honesty him being here brought out the worst in some of his defenders as well as his attackers. It was fairly obvious SS was just a desperate marketing tool, one that ironically backfired, and as Godz says I think you held out longer than most would before getting pissed off. I think this place will be a better place based on your decision, and hopefully a few other people may now think before they shout without justification on here.

FFS get the St Georges cross out and burn a few of these honky Americans on it, sacrifice them in the name of the UK England who saved the ass of those Black Boys in America and brought that music home!! Sorry Dave no 2 (i.e. not Mr, Rimmer) what a pile of pathetic trash you have written, xenophobia with a liberal touch on it, why not generalise a little more and say all Americans are stupid. I would suggest 95%, and yes it is a guess, of the Northern scene today, and large chunks of the past don't give a flying f**k about the history of the artists, the music, the culture or any of the politics that make up the world that created Soul music, they like the Northern Soul scene and records, period. A very different proposition. That is evidenced daily on here. I would suggest there is a similar proportion of people on the Northern scene as there is in real life, which is far greater in this country than people will admit or see, are racists, so don't make out our "scene" is completely whiter than white, pardon the pun. Making such a sweeping statement about white America just shows how little you have actually thought about that statement. Dave No 1 (i.e. that is Mr Rimmer) I am completely amazed at your statement. Is there anyone else on this site, and possibly out of thius site, that is doing more to record and celebrate and most importantly document Black American artists than Boba, oh and actually give the artists something back? FFS I am shocked at your response given your efforts in past to do exactly that. Can you genuinely say all of this scene cares about the artists than the records? I totally agree with Bob the first statement was a ridiculous statement, you say yourself until recently the records have been in Japan, so exactly what is the relevance of the opening statement? Or is the problem Bob has insulted the scene and must be put to right, FFS there is a lot to insult when you think about it, particularly if you want to talk about its relevance to a wider Black American music world. As for saving the records, lets not get all high and mighty here, for most of us thats all it was, getting a piece of plastic, it certainly did not return anything to the artists that made it. I agree his comments are misguided about Europe but again its easy to see why based on here, maybe time to look outside the world that is Northern Soul and see us for how the world would see us.....

Hi, whats the view on the current value for the Jimmy Hudson He Don't Love You 45 on Act IV 2000. John's latest price guide is £500, is this realistic, I have had it for a long time before I realised just how rare a piece it is. Appreciate sometimes the guides are over but they have also been under on some of the less known pieces which I assume this falls under. This only came to my attention when Tony Parker played it and notice Steve G has played it recently, has it had significant play over the years?? Is it well known?

I thought I had bought them off the Soulscape site but I couldn't find it on there this am, Steve Plumbs (soulmusic.com ?)site did have them at one point for same price as manufacturer, or PM Paul Mooney on here sure he can tell you. Try and get the direct site and listen to the Bobby Sheen track as well its brilliant also. more crossover but worth getting also Knew I had this saved somewhere https://www.garryjcape.com/hitandrun.htm all 4 are worth buying to be honest, I have.

Steve, Its one of the soulscape recent issues isn't it, an unissued track from her recent CD, assume its a 60's recording. Paul Mooney on here is your man as its his company, I think, issuing this and some other fantastic CD's, they have given Kent a run for their money over last year or so in quality of releases, cant beleive this has never been mentioned before on here They have also released some great 45's. https://www.garryjcape.com/sscd7012.htm I actually took this to Lowton to play and forgot, its a cracking track, just proper Northern. I was going to put up a sound file but wasn't sure with it being relatively new release.

Move next door to someone who is always in, I am buying loads of LP's at moment and the postie just leaves them next door, poor woman had to bring in 10 LP's, about 10 CD's and 3 Books the other day, I am going to have to pay here storeage soon Off topic but have you had your Basics festival night? I have been away all of the last 3 Saturdays so havent seen anything., Like the look of your new Dundee night, thought something like that would be easier in Edinburgh?? Hope you are well and back on topic, I have now had the expereience where it was obvious the postie tried to fold one of my LP packages to get it in, thankfully it was too well packed and he could only fold the corners.....

Yes happy birthday, the only label I have ever tried to really collect full run of, got one that evaded me for years and thought I had made it (excluding the non existing(to date) Bob & Earl obviously) but did a check and found I had a few missing, do I chase them or do I admit defeat!! Absolutely stonking Northern right through the label, but some great general soul and a few great folk records, or at least I am told they are great.. Nice piece.

It was done originally by Four Tops, on the Keeper Of The Castle LP, which is by far the best soul record, but I do like Servio Mendes for a jig around the dance floor. They used to sing it in their live shows in 80's and think it might be on one of their live albums but can't remember what thats like

Spot on as ever Mr Chalkster, that and Suspicion were as good as got, pretty sure I heard them first at a not very well attended SAS Allinghter in Manchester (Rod?) and they blew me away. I did go back looking for Suspicion as didnt know about unniussued etc in those days and ended up with Carlena Weaver - Jealousy, which was so not the record I wanted and was pi**ed off about it I gave it awaynot long after! OOps, The unnissued stuff has been frighteningly good in quality but when you look back on this thread you actually realise just how fantasti Northern there was among all the issued stuff

Johno think most(if not all) came out on the later Charly LP's, think they may have more stuff on them, if you search on here Dave Flynn gave more details, pretty sure there is unissued stuff on Charly that wasn't on this. I only have 2 of the Charly LP's so cant compare. Hope you are well, cheers Jock

Do you mean Shake, Kenny, that sounds similar, his live version of that is the best. 100% spot on Sebastian, the Harlem Square LP is one of the great soul performances of all time, and when you listen to that and then his 60's stuff like YSM you realise just how much he is holding back in later times.

Nah sure Steve won't mind him being quoted as saying Northern Soul is dead....... Cmon Steve I promise I won't mention it again if you publish, you only have money to lose.... Seriously great mag, maybe one of the best, maybe you could serialise some of the reviews on here as front page stuff,if Mike was okay with that. Itwould make great reading of a time when most assume wrongly the scene had gone into hibernation and a great time when all music was played, although not embraced all by sides evenly...

Hi Darren, can you remember dates, were there two different promotions over then years? Arthur is obviously either golfing or off in Europe being an international DJ star!

I am surprised at this Dave, would you not want to know if ITB wasn't reaching its audience or was not getting it right, (which I appreciate based on comments here, which I heartily agree with is not the the case). I appreciate much of this has gone beyond that, and its questionable whether this is Manifesto's target audience, but still there is some interesting feedback on here, I appreciate negativity is a bit much on here but surely as I say constructive criticism is part and parcel of forums, if we all just say nothing then nobody knows anything is wrong. I am assuming its the way the criticism is being levelled and can't disagree with this. I repeat again I think Manifesto has great promise for people who like more than Northern, in all honesty I wonder if it would be better off dumping the majority of Northern stuff and just being a soul mag, but I suspect that would lose a chunk of its readers and therefore its ability to cover the other stuff so its a bit of a viscous circles. I do hope Mike is reading this and goes away and thinks about it. Must say however very troubled about that stuff about trying to stop the play and think that is something Mike should explain his reasons behind as in all honesty that is more likely to stop me subscribing than the content issue.