jocko

Pete could you please stop it, thats twice today we have agreed, surely cant be good for my soul police credentials! Jock PS Thats not to say they haven't made good records, some great records in Martha's case, just don't think either are the strongest singers. especially Ms Ross.

I agree with you Pete, some of the asking prices for the mid price items lately have made me dizzy I would say however of these guys with the top prices recently their lists keep recurring with very few sold, so I think that tells the story. And re the top dollar comment, absolutely, but if you aren't selling it thats not the market value, surely the measure of top dollar.I also think that the prices being asked must surely reflect the fact that these have been bought for similarly way over market value, hence desire to get a better price. However I think there are far more bargains (realistic prices??) on this site lately, some real decent prices for the mid range stuff I think, and again I think a measure that other than Mr Manship, who is benefiting from his good stock and good service I suggest, prices for these £50 to £250 are coming down, Although cant beleive I now include £250 as mid price since I have never paid that much!! I am just waiting on the crash, so cmon those with the big collections, start offloading, you know you want to

Answering your more reasonable post, as said I don't attend much so difficult for me to say on this, However reason I stopped regularly attending in mid 90's was because of what I see as the evoluition of the current scene position. Firstly I dont think there is one scene anymore, or at best a very fragmented scene with little co-ordination, this is for a number of reasons but mostly the proliferation of small soul nites which in turn are attracting amounts of returnees of the sorts that Teapot refers to, this in turn stifles the ability of these small soul nights to play anything different. I do think there is a place for these but these appear to be now the centre of the scene, rather than on the periphery feeding bigger venues. These that do feed into bigger venues appear to want same old again and therefore Stoke etc multiplies, again not against this but just not for me, good luck to those who do attend, its certainly better in my eyes than them attending Abba tribute nights. However the issue then is there is no room for a regular (minimum monthly, but ideally fortnightly) smaller progressive night where the top sounds are played regularly, which to me has to be the centre of a cohesive Rare Soul scene. Therefore for me it has killed my interest in the scene as whole, however I also realise that we are in different situation, would people travel fortnightly to a central place, are there enough sounds to maintain that, but that is another question!! Jock

I said it before, if by wanting quality over quantity and wanting a cohesive scene makes you part of the Soul Police sign me up now. Thought someone of your supposed high brow attitude to all this would be above the very tired and frankly jaded soul police insult. Only 500 truly great records, get out of it, yeah right, assume you are judging them all by the Mirwood sound alike circa 1966, which I suppose is consistent with your view of house. Ridiculous comment, and as for the second point please translate with direct digs rather than coded insults to the various other genres and scenes that dont fit your quality definition. I assume this is a dig at Lifeline etc, I find it difficult to defend as I don't attend as much as I should but the above is typical of your comments lately Simon, absolutely no substance behind them. The assumption that serious Northern fans cant have fun is as tired and jaded as the Soul Police insult, I think it just shows that you like many, I am afraid, dont get the whole Northern Soul ethos, and I am sorry if that means I sound "up myself" but it frustrates the hell out of me that this is thrown around. I dont attend because other than a few obvious places I dont know where these "hardcore Northern Soul nutter nights" are, please direct me to a few and I will see if they meet up to my standards. WTF - I assume you are just trying to annoy everyone in each sub-scene with this post rather than the odd individual you try and piss off and unfortunately its worked with me, I should know better but I appreciate you are a master of putting out incorrect facts that then become history, one of my pet hates in life, not just NS. The one thing we do agree on is we have a choice, I have sadly chosen my armchair although knowing there are views like the above around reminds me of why I did!

Ken I thought you, like me, were king of the bargains, you have been down South too long! £35 should get the Money one, and a decent Fish Supper should get you the Abet one, or am I living in the past..... again!

You mean you don't remember it from Stafford?

Over to you Nick you asked first so will leave you to contact etc, Cheers Jock

Me too if there are 2 out there, keep meaning to pick this up but never get round to it, reasonable price since I am a poor Scotsman (or tight as some would say!). Cheers Jock

I have had 2 in my hands and they were the same so didnt buy them, Barrie W is the expert on this, think he said most he had heard had faults but cant remember. Mr H had it and played it out, cant remember it being bad but then not always obvious over club system, What is full title of flip, is it Love Hangover? Is your second one for sale, asking in a kinda curious but not too likely to buy way if thats allowed Cheers Jock

And a sound file of flip if possible please (apologies if hijacking here !) Jock

Flip it over for Love ????, great old Guy H spin, bit left field but awesome dancer (for the slow dancers among us!)

I did see that but it doesn't send the IMO anymore, the other person I think has to have a bidpay account, and this guy wants a physical Order. F**ck, off to bank tomorrow then, that will teach me to be click happy,. Thanks for getting back Pete, much appreciated. Cheers Jock

Hi there, can anyone help, won some things on ebay and hadnt checked re payment (I know, pretty stupid but hey...) only takes IMO's and I used to get these from bidpay.com which no longer does this, does anyone know if there is an online alternative to this or how to get an IMO these days., Any help appreciated. Cheers Jock

Looks really interesting Mike, are the essays evenly spread through the years or does the book focus more on one period than other? Thanks Jock Thanks for that Jim, I had that watched before and forgot about so just snapped one up. Cheers Jock

Shane's topic on new books made me think of some old books, I also collect books on soul and some related music books (jazz etc), couple of books I have seen referenced but have never seen or heard anyone having are: Sound Of Soul - Phylis Garland (I think thats title/name) Arnold Shaw - Soul also Honkers and Shouters, (again not totally sure of names, doing this from memory as books not totally out of boxes yet). they are often in bibliography of older books. Has anyone seen these, or, hence topic forum, even better have them to sell, condition not too important assuming they are still bound!! Any other recomendations for obscure books on soul or related cultural books? Cheers Jock

Agree on the Sam Cooke book, fantastic read, I just got yesterday The Real Tammi Terrell, My Sister Tommie - Ludie Montgomery/Vickie Wright, not started it yet but great pictures. Also recently read Bobby Womack - Midnight Mover, by Bobby Womack, not very well written to be honest but still fascinating for me as he is a big hero. Agree also on the WJ cd, great, sometimes his later material gets a bit sugary for me but the unnissued stuff on this is just magical. Just recently got the Kent CD Does Anybody Know I Am Here - Instalment 2 of Vietnam Songs. maybe not as good as Volume 1 for me (although should point out that was one of my favorite collections for some years) but still a great CD, not essentially Northern but a brilliant collection of music from that period, Cheers Jock

I recently spent $13 on ebay buying a second copy of the album, which has another couple of good tracks on, why on earth would you pay a fortune for the 45???

Confused on the more commercial and safe comment but assume from your mid-tempo comment you are decrying the introduction of more soulful sounds. At last somebody has finally said it, there is too much soul being played on the Northern SOUL scene, I finally give in! We need some more soul police on here SOON.

Soul nights were great here, one of the few soul nights worth us travelling all that way for, and did Chris not do some all dayers here?? Was lucky enough to DJ here and it suited my eclectic (or all over the shop as some would say) style of playing. Happy memories!! Jock

Amazing clip, I assume late on in her life looking at her but very powerful song (could this be the first deep soul song or is that for another thread). Can you download these clips from You Tube (with it being bought over expect the free unregulated service to dissapear soon!!) Fng hell Pete for someone that only likes pop stompers on vinyl you cant half spot a real soul performance (David Ruffin is tingling my spine as I type on other clip) Cheers for these from someone too lazy to search through the thing!!! Jock

And I assume your price for the spare 3 has at least trebled after this thread!!

I am confused, my understanding which seems to be confirmed by John above they were cut direct from tape! Do you mean original Grapevine acetate or original EMI disc ??

Wooly answer is they have to sound at least remotely like one of artists I quoted, or throw in O.V Wright or Aretha (just to prove you dont have to be brought up in poverty as background), thats the exact definition, or as exact as you are gonna get it! Or if you want a more scientific answer then it a sound born in West Africa some time in 19th century, but started to really evolve in the USA 1920's to 50's and was finally fully born in 1960's within Afro-American cultures and reached its zenith at some point in the 70's, although much harder to find evidence nowadays live examples of this are out there! Or easiest answer is PM your address I will send you a CD of what I call real soul and if you don't think there is any discernable sound then Baz will eat Chalkies hat live at an allnighter in the near future! I now officialy surrender to your unbelievable tenacity at debating Win!! Cheers Jock

Winnie normally your responses are reasoned and well thought out but I don't think you have really read my post. I am quite clear in my quotes above saying I am not talking about Northern. Although there is obviously huge influence by style/quality of musicians on soul records the genre of soul music is defined by the singer and their voice, that's as indisputable as defining Opera music, why is it any different with soul music? I listed these people as merely examples, the etc, etc was to show they are only a small example of great soul singers. I then followed that up by saying not all their records are great soul records, so not saying these people define soul but the quality of their greatest recordings definitely do, not sure why that is pretentious, cannot think of any more effective way to show what I am meaning as definitive. And of course there are parameters, there have to be for any genre, again why should it be any different for Soul music. How people interpret these parameters is the burning question, but again using the analogy of Opera there is only so far they can be moved without actually re-defining the genre. There is enough truly great soul music to render any changes to definition pointless and meaningless in my opinion. And I didn't say only 6TS and 7ts, currently I buy almost exclusively new music made in current year and a fair bit of vocal house, all which fits the parameters of soul music in my opinion. My point is this music should get precedence over Amy Winehouse, again talking about the Soul world not the Northern Scene, I don't think they will be to everyones taste here as it is fairly contemporary so I don't think everyone should like it, but its indisputably soul to me, whether its as timeless as the stuff made in 60;s/70's is another matter and for another thread. Again I don't get this, of course you need pre-conceived ideas of any genre, but especially soul music, how else do you define it? And as it has to be all about the style of vocals then not many books can convey this, however I am happy to do you a CD (will be next week), there wont be any Northern on it, probably lots of old music but hopefully once you have heard it you will understand my point perfectly. Not that I expect you to agree with it!!! If you do want to read books about history of soul then suggest you start with these Charles Keil - Urban Blues Michael Harambolos - From Blues to Soul In America, Leroi Jones - Blues People. The first 2 actually only touch on soul, the third is actually about jazz but to me they explain the evolution of soul and cultural conditions that created it better than any other. Don't normally get into these debates, normally just cut and run but since I seem to have started it thought I should contribute. Now off to play some Techno ! Cheers Jock PS Realise you were only being sarcastic re books but thought I would live up to the soulier than thou sanctimonious git criticisms I now expect!!

This is a statement that has been repeated numerous times recently and I just don't get it. How can there be more than one definition of Soul music, its a defined genre, well documented. There are great Soul singers (Bobby Womack, Rance Allen, Latimore, Millie Jackson etc etc etc etc ), not all of their records are great soul records, but this is the definition of a soul singer, therefore surely there can only be variations of how good a soul singer is after this. And therefore to not accept people who do not fit classicaly within this genre, or are not very good singers within these genre is not blinkered but a real understanding of Soul music. Including Frank Popp in particular is an insult to soul singers around the world, I respect what he does within his genre but irrelevant to Soul singers such as above. I suspect you like others are meaning Northern Soul Winnie, and then you are right there are many definitions, and some peoples idea of Northern has nothing to do with Soul in my book, but I respect the differing definitions within this genre nowadays, may not always like it but I do agree NS is almost undefinable in one style. My own preference is that is should be a subset of the Soul genre and at least pay homage to this genre, again in my opinion all the very greatest NS records are at least good soul records but I realise this is because I am Soul fan first and foremost (took me until recently I think to realise this). I repeat myself I realise but I think its an important historical fact and disrespectful to the history and the culture that was responsible for the creation of Soul music to keep rewriting its history in order to fit Northern Soul. Cheers Jock