Garethx

I have Come On With It on a 45 Jock. Doesn't turn up much, but should be cheap when it does. Think I paid about £2 for it a few years ago. I prefer it to the Lew Kirton version, but I think I'm in the minority on that one.

As others have pointed out this record has remained decidedly rare.

Try also to hear the tremendous original of this by Dan Penn on MGM: should be one up on refosoul. Both versions are fantastic, but I think DP edges it for me.

Patrinell Staten Little Love Affair on Sepia from Seattle. A pretty rare original which has had various re-issues over the last five years. First found by John Manship and Keb Darge, I believe, in a California warehouse.

I don't know why people are getting so het up about this. Tim Brown would not have auctioned a copy if this record were in any way cheap, plentiful or easy to buy: it would have knocked his credibility sideways if he had done so. I guess it's still covered to protect exclusivity to an extent, but the fact is that knowing the identity of a record does not always guarantee that it becomes any easier to buy overnight. In the 70s, 80s and 90s many tunes were covered in the full knowledge that they were not rare in any way: the turnover of sounds was far higher and this gave deejays and dealers a bit of a head-start in playing them, squirreling copies away to sell to mates at a preferential rate, selling them at relatively high prices once uncovered etc. These days it takes years to break a previously unknown or unplayed sound and those who make the effort to do such a thing have earned the right to cover records up. The online rumour-mill is such that to cover something these days there's an almost cast-iron chance that the record is difficult to buy in the first place. Yes there will be a proliferation of a few copies once something is uncovered in the case of, for example The Parliaments: but that was a relative trickle of copies that might have been in the collections of group or doo-wop collectors. When The Parliaments was played covered-up I would estimate that the amount of people on the rare soul scene who knew its identity could have been counted on the fingers of one hand. Yes, the sounclip of the Little Jerry Williams cover-up is now in the public domain. It makes it easier to speculate who the singer might be. Does it make it any easier to find one? I very much doubt it.

Chalky think Steve Plum may have a spare copy to sell.

£75 but becoming harder to find all the time as I think there's a bit of a buzz on this as a revival. One of the Stafford records which was way ahead of its time. I've played this out lots for the last few years as it fits in really well with lots of other uptempo southern sounds with a funk influence. A great 45.

There's also a good James Brown produced stab at There Was A Time by the Dee Felice Trio, where they take a Ramsey Lewis style approach to the song. Beware that there are two versions on Bethlehem 45s: one with horns and one without.

Brian there's a separate thread running on the Roger Hatcher record and I posted about his relationship with Edwin Starr. It's not really a clear cut situation.

Flaming 'eck, more like. Still, this is probably rarer than the original!

Apparently the connection between Roger and Charles "Edwin Starr" Hatcher is shrouded in mystery. Edwin Starr claimed they were not cousins, but it seemed to be in Roger's interest to infer that they were. One of those old rumours which become a 'fact' over time, it seems. Both had connections with Cleveland Ohio, Detroit and Nashville at similar times though and it is worth bearing in mind that the word 'cousin' often had a different meaning from its strict genealogical sense in the black communities of forty or fifty years ago.

You are, of course, correct about the Kelly Bros. Tony, and I accept that We're Gonna Make It and Caught Making Love were indeed cut in Nashville, but I find it odd that Bob Holmes doesn't have his name on Roger Hatcher's Excello single. From memory the arranger's credit is a presumed pseudonym Patience Prudence. I can see why he may have used that pseudonym if he was A&R director and also hoping to get a production/arrangement fee by using an alias, but similarly I can also see a scenario where this is not his work. It doesn't really sound like a Nashville production, even quite uptown and orchestrated material such as the Avons 45s. I know Kent have compiled this side on Uptown Down South and wonder like Mr Flynn if there was any archive material along with the tape which might definitively pin down where the recording was actually made.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were a single colour demo of the Wade Flemons single. Vee Jay was a pretty large concern at this point in its history and manufactured records at several points of the compass. For this reason we see quite a few variations in the layouts, pressing marks etc. of Vee Jay product. Just look at the variations in layout, label colour, matrices, vinyl/styrene quality across releases such as Gloria Jones on Champion and the early series Goldwax 45s etc. It's quite ironic that the factors which bought this mighty R&B independent to its knees were the cashflow problems bought on by trying to manufacture, distribute and get paid for Beatles records.

I have no documentary proof Dave, it's based on hearsay and an educated guess. Roger's other material (like the Little Rodger Hatcher 45 on Dotty's and his 70s work on Black Soul & Superbad) is on Detroit labels and definitely recorded in the city. From time to time his material was leased to larger labels such as Brown Dog (an address in NY, I believe) or Columbia, or in this case Excello. I remember Tim Brown including this on a tape compilation of Detroit productions appearing on non-Detroit labels, which featured things like Just Brothers and Honey Bees on Garrison, Tommy Neal on Vault, Marjorie Black on Sue etc. I also have a distinct memory of someone (can't recall who) telling me that Sweetest Girl In The World was recorded at Golden World. Perhaps the soulfuldetroit forum can shed some light on this. While some of the Excello soul product was actually recorded in Nashville a fair proportion of the releases were leased in from other locales: The Kelly Bros. from Chicago, Marva Whitney from Kansas City to name a couple of examples.

Roger Hatcher is Edwin Starr's cousin, I believe.

Strange how the value of Two Of A Kind on Ramsel remained pretty steady while Jeanette soared in price. Two Of A Kind is a pretty scarce record and a good one, while Jeanette was a classic cheapie for years. As to the Vee Jay query I have personally seen far more deejay copies than issues over the years.

Hi Colin I saw Anita Baker's UK debut at Hammersmith Odeon and she was absolutely fantastic. Miles removed from her later coffee-table incarnation. Often with live acts arriving from the US to the UK it can be a case of familiarity breeding contempt, from both sides of the stage. Just goes to show what a minefield this whole area can be. The mercurial artistic temperament coupled with the fickle nature of fan worship can be an unstable mix. Very few live performers are capable of hitting the spot every time they take the stage, and maybe it's unrealistic to expect them to be able to do this. One live performer who has never underwhelmed me personally is Al Green, but perhaps I've just been lucky in choosing when to see him. Has anyone on here seen him turn in a disappointing show?

It's been around a long time as a collectors record. I bought a copy blind off Adey Pierce in the 80s, and can't say I was that impressed by it. I don't think it will ever go 'massive' because it's not really good enough and I think it's actually impossible to dance to. Not a bad lead vocal but the backing singers coo-ing "Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy" ad infinitum still give me a headache. The Roger Hatcher 45 was cut in Detroit. I'm guessing this may have been recorded in Nashville, although Frank Howard had other records on New York labels. Sorry to sound negative. If we all liked the same tunes it would be strange. I wouldn't try to value it because my pricing has been way off the mark lately.

I realise the record market can move fast but a ballpark figure of £30-£40 should be enough to secure a copy of the A&T 45, particularly on ebay or similar auction sites. If it's going for significantly more this must be a relatively recent increase. Bear in mind this release does not feature the in-demand Take Me Back. I understand Tyra's Song gets played at some clubs in Europe and is quite popular there, but is that enough demand to push the price up so sharply?

Tyra's Song on A&T should be about £30-£40 now, I would guess. Price in the real world for the Angle 3 45 about £150 if you can find someone prepared to part with it. A lot of the newer Lee Fields records are pretty good also, and are available for the price of a pint. It would be nice to think we can help support the career of someone still doing it.

This was a Peterborough sound I have been semi-reliably informed, and as everyone else has said, cheap and relatively plentiful given that it was not particularly in-demand for ages after that. Copies have dried up as people have realised A] Butch is playing it and B] It's a great 45. I have always had a very strong preference for the Tyra's Song side of the record, but of course Take Me Back is ace too. Couple of things to bear in mind: Tyra's Song is also available on the A&T label without TMB on the reverse; also there is a track on his Let's Talk It Over album which shares the same backing as Take Me Back. An original of the lp in good nick would still tend to fetch a bit more money than the aforementioned Angle 3 single (sealed copies on Popsike for over $650). soul on!

Have PMd you Andy.

As an addition to the above I think the version of Hurry Sundown actually in the film was sung by Little Richard, and very powerful it is too.

Malcolm Hayes' version of Hurry Sundown on Liberty is a great beat ballad based on the score of the Otto Preminger film of the same name featuring (I think) Michael Caine and Jane Fonda. The other side is a great stab at Goffin & King's It's Not Easy. The film itself is dire. Caine's first 'American' role and he plays it about as well as Dick Van Dyke doing cockney!

Paris Blues is inspired or suggested by the film of the same name rather than being used in the actual film (which is well worth seeing). The Mecca ender, California Montage by Young Holt Unlimited was a cover of the title song of the soundtrack to the Paul Newman motor-racing flick Winning. I believe Dave Gruisin's original version was tried there too at some point. A few modern soul spins of more recent times have featured on the soundtracks to movies. A really good example off the top of my head is Perri's Prove To Me from the soundtrack of Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing on Motown.