Garethx

A lot of the rarer 'nighter newies are solidly uptempo, from whatever decade they were actually recorded in. There seems to be a concerted effort to ratchet the tempo up again, so I don't necessarily agree with the opinion that rare newies=esoteric, medium-paced dross; I think that's a sweeping generalisation. Burnley, Lifeline, 100 Club etc. all feature deejays who know how to keep the tempo decidedly 'up' on the dancefloor. If the typical diet of new sounds at these venues is too slow for some punters maybe the next logical stop for them is speed garage?

For the Suncut 45 I'd say £40-50 for a mint copy. For the Kingston 45 who knows? Demand is pretty big at the moment and it will be interesting to see what it makes in John's auction.

Hi Currently looking for a copy of Big Maybelle on Rojac 124: How It Lies cw Old Love Never Dies in best condition possible. TIA for any leads gareth

The Rising Sun did a version of Gamble & Huff's One Night Affair on the Suncut label. It utilises pretty much the same backing track as the Good Lovin' track currently for auction (in fact Good Lovin' is an answer song to their version of One Night Affair: the current biggie is a bit punchier for the dancefloor). The Suncut 45 is much, much cheaper than the Kingston 45 and is well worth picking up. Their other 45s on Kingston (Let Me Into Your Heart, Gettin' Is Kinda Cool Now) are worthy of a listen as well. All good Miami soul featuring the great vocals of Simeon Taylor.

A version of Loretta Williams on Jotis. Both produced by Otis Redding if memory serves.

Should state that this is a different song to Lee Charles' Standing On The Outside. A nice 45 and one of the less common soul releases on the label.

I think this is the crux of the matter Rod. The venues playing vintage boots are largely completely separate from the up-front nighter scene where the idea of OV should matter. It is self-booted carvers of more up-to-date rarities which are reprehensible to me. To play them at venues where other deejays are striving for a degree of originality and imagination is, to me, a real pisser. It is such deejays who cause a lot of ill-will as they tend to have a defensive, negative and aggressive attitude about what they do. A lack of scruples tends to be accompanied by a lack of manners. It undermines the whole ethos of what the scene should be about, respect for everyone in the particular environment.

The answer is in having knowledge plus the confidence gained from having that knowledge. This was a missing number in the label discography but to know that you would have needed an interest in a label which is quite obscure. Although the group had a known 'Northern' release, Cry No More, this 45 could easily have been awful. Maybe some vocal group collector in the mists of time had mentioned to the buyer that the record in question was great, or maybe it was pure luck. Either way, a lot of ebay buyers are still unwilling to take a punt on records they don't know: the same core of oldies and known tunes always make big-bucks, but obscurities often go through bid-less or really cheaply. This will maybe change as more auctions have soundclips these days and the guesswork about a record's aural qualities is removed. Even so, many buyers seem to need the rubber-stamp of a record being 'big for so-and-so' before they'll want it. I think it's interesting that some current monsters were collected in wider spheres of black music interest than the confines of 'Northern Soul': Funk, Groups, Boogie, Disco, Deep and Southern Soul are all areas which have yielded current Northern monsters. A more rounded interest in black music would appear to be useful in staying ahead of the pack.

Hi Ian I think the old distinctions between collectors on one hand and deejays on the other have largely broken down at the top level. Maybe Sam is the last of those left who buy records primarily for deejaying. Having said that, in doing so Sam has amassed a hell of a collection. I get the feeling that if the likes of Butch, Arthur Fenn and Andy Dyson (and others of course) were to give up deejaying tomorrow they would never stop buying soul music. Your comment about it being a rich man's game might be true if one was starting from scratch and trying to build up a set of the biggest and best current spins, but a lot of the current biggies started life as 'collectors records', certainly rare, but not necessarily expensive throughout their known history: Little Willie Johnson, Buddy Cantrell etc. were certainly not always three-grand records; as Simon points out above, The Parliaments on Cabell was a relatively cheap ebay record which only a few people in the world were interested in at the time. Thirty-odd years of buying interesting records, taking a punt on cheap unknowns, having an ear for a future monster and the conviction to push such records are all tools which can circumvent the need for a large cash outlay on vinyl. The old model of dealers, deejays and collectors being separate entities doesn't really exist at the top level any more. These guys are more like an amalgam of all three helped by a worldwide network of contacts built up over a long period of time plus a lot of perseverance in gaining knowledge of soul music. There's no quick fix in getting to that position: a lottery win might help, but to stay at the top there's no substitute for taste and knowledge.

I agree with Chalky completely as well. To characterise these particular deejays as clapped-out relics of the old guard is misguided and is clearly based on never having heard them play records anywhere. I'm trying not to be personal, Beeks (I've gone down that road before and am not particularly proud of it) but you're going after the wrong targets again.

edit.

I think you're absolutely spot-on Sean. The scenario you describe is probably grounds for a separate thread. Where the scene goes from here and how it is passed down is a potentially fascinating subject. I look forward to a future where a regard for soul music pure and simple, in all its guises, outlives the 'rules' which have grown up around the scene. Legitimate re-issues have a part to play in all of that, for sure. Bootlegs simply shouldn't. It's interesting to me that the European scene, where younger deejays and collectors have grown up with great archive labels such as Kent have a far healthier outlook on all aspects of soul. Bootlegs seem to play a non-existent part in what they do and respect for the formats seems to extend to open-mindedness about soul music in general. I'm optimistic about the future based on that model: it's not a case of 'standards slipping' which is often implied when topics on this forum start to meditate on the future. Tellingly, the venues in the UK which seem to operate on an 'anything-goes' level as far as formats are concerned seem to be controlled by and aimed at the middle-aged constituency.

Hi Sean I agree with what you're saying up to a point. The grey area for me is material such as Grapevine 2000 singles. All legitimate, legal releases and one could put together a hell of a set with them. But is playing tracks which were previously available at high prices on small independent labels from 30 years ago on UK re-issue label format acceptable on the rare soul scene? The previously unreleased material is a no-brainer (stuff like Kent's Come Through Me etc. can and should be played) but I would personally have reservations about a deejay who played, for example, Willie Tee's Teasing You Again from a Grapevine single when others on the same bill might have the Gatur release in their play boxes. From every moral and ethical standpoint my stance holds no water, I know, but it's the intangibles of practice and etiquette which give our scene its particular identity. I feel guilty about this, because after all we should be applauding the artists who made these great records rather than the ability of a collector or deejay to afford the particular piece of aged plastic.

While there seems to a vocal and tangible passion among the original vinyl only camp I wonder if the same can be said for the converse argument. Those who promote venues where the format of the records played is not on the agenda seem to be less forthcoming in their views on this thread. I agree with Rod where he says that the two scenes appear to be quite separate. I don't think it's possible to have a coherent argument that playing sets of carvers and bootlegs is a realistic way forward for what we know as the Rare Soul scene, but equally those who promote such venues probably don't see it as part of that scene anyway. To me these venues should be left alone to get on with what they do: and be in no doubt that what they do is an extension of generic, middle aged, middle of the road entertainment; part of the same family as the karaoke evening, Friday Night Disco with Meat Raffle etc. The arguments about OVO are probably irrelevant to the majority of promoters and punters on that particular scene. The problem for me arises when the two worlds collide. When a venue knowingly wears the clothes of a rare soul night but offers a diet of music played on whatever format comes to hand (some OV, some pressings/boots and carvers of the big, rare nighter spins of the last decade). Those who run such venues can often be highly defensive of their policies. Into the bargain they can often be highly critical of those who might point out that they should state clearly in their advertising that they are offering a mixed format night. Perhaps an OVO Kitemark should be a prerequisite of running a soul night? A nationwide network of inspectors can assess and vouch for each venue's right to dsplay the kitemark on their publicity material. I should mention that I think that there is a wider issue than just the OV vs Any Old Format (AOF) arguments. I've stated it before on here: there are too many mediocre deejays in both camps. If a record is substandard I don't really care what format it's on. Maybe it's worse if it is actually on original vinyl and cost the deejay a small fortune?

Thanks for your candid answer Doc. Shouldn't be too hard to pick up. yours in soul gareth

Can I ask why you only want the issue of Pep Brown? The track on the other side of the issue, Don't Blame Me is pretty ordinary in my opinion. The dj copies have I'm The One Who Loves You on both sides.

Had this on Gator and sold it a few years ago. The other side is quite a nice deep ballad. From Florida and unrelated to Miles Grayson's Gator label form LA or the Willie Tee label.

There are a couple of superb soul recordings on Alley: Ike Noble's It's Bad and The Uptights Look A Little Higher/Just A Dream. This is an interesting 45 but I wonder if it was conceived as a soul record: it sounds like more of a Bobby Gentry tribute than anything else.

The Just Brothers "Go On And Laugh" cover-up has been played on and off for nearly thirty years now. A one-off acetate whose true identity is apparently unknown, so don't know if this should count.

Good call on the Johnny Honeycut: this was first played from the studio disc was it not. Actual release has got to be in the realm of less than five copies. Going back to my earlier mention of The Inspirations on Breakthrough can anyone state how many copies of that are known to exist? Single figures again surely?

Boz Scaggs' soul credentials are pretty well established. His self-titled album on Atlantic was cut at Fame at the height of the studios powers and contains some of the high-water marks of blue-eyed Southern Soul in I'm Easy and I'll Be Long Gone. The later records on Columbia are more obviously soft rock with a soulful slant in the mould of Hall & Oates etc. but contain a lot of perfectly-listenable tracks.

Not forgetting the great Wee Willie Walker. Is it true that Lil' Major Williams, like Little Eddie Taylor, was a person of restricted growth?

Thanks for the scan Dave. The first Atco-distributed issue of this I've ever seen. Wonder if it exists on a vinyl Atco-distributed stock copy?

Frank Giacobbe has championed this 45 for a long time so it's good to see others adding it to their sets. It's pretty tough to find and sounds great out. I had one which went to a very good home about three years ago.

Malcolm Baumgart had a pretty comprehensive collection of US Motown with amazing regional and promo/release variations of most of the various logos' output. If there had been a copy of Frank Wilson in a collection in London he would have known about it I'm sure but he was adamant that the only copies in collections were those we've already mentioned here.