Garethx

^ Point taken Bob, but I Do Love You was available as a true stereo mix from at least the second pressing of the original album (with the photographic cover) and maybe even the first.

^ The orange and yellow arrow design above is an original Monarch press. Can't think of terribly many Chess releases pressed there at the time, but there were at least a couple. The blue and white label copy in the first post dates from the time Sylvia Robinson of All Platinum fame acquired the Chess catalogue in the late 70s to early 80s. Chess was then subsequently sold to MCA. The 'never sounded better' blurb on the sleeves is sort of misleading as I don't think there was any radical remastering done and the releases ended up on really thin styrene.

I can see nothing wrong with the odd piece of classic rocksteady sympathetically dropped in amongst records of a similar vintage or feel at a soul night, particularly if played by someone with a long-standing affinity with the music. But not at an allnighter and not by somebody who couldn't tell a Del Davis from a Derrick Harriott. If this becomes the flavour of the month we'll have hit rock bottom.

An old Guy Hennigan tip, so it has NS credentials.

Sorry Joel. No idea as I don't own the record. It's a scan I kept from an old ebay listing.

Some great contributions here. Really like the unreleased Little Tommy of Dave's. Notice it's for sale at topdogrecords.co.uk

Interesting that the Oscar Wright studio disc features the same date 5/12/66 as the Mira Sound acetate for Little Tommy's "Baby Can't You See", credited to The Upsetters. The Upsetters' leader and sax player was Grady Gaines, writer of "Fell In Love". I wonder if the date means both tracks were recorded on the same day? The two studios are only a few streets apart.

Not exacltly the same backing track, just variations of the same idea laid down at different sessions years apart. The track which is exactly the same as "Too Late To Check Your Trap" is "Right On Baby" by Bill Coday on Crajon. Don't think the Arcades and Jessie James on Shirley (which do indeed use the same backing track as each other) are on the same backing as "I'm The One Who Loves You" beyond being 'tributes' to the Curtis Mayfield production, an important distinction. Jerry Butler's original on VeeJay is on a completely separate backing to the Impressions later version anyway. The Arcades and Jessie James track would have been played by a completely different set of musicians (The Johnny Hartsman Band) in another city (San Francisco). What about Jackie Ross "Selfish One" and "New Lover"? That's the exact same band track to my ears with the addition of an organ to New Lover. Funnily enough also 're-appropriated' on Mr Lucky's Stardom rarity at a later date in much the same way as The Arcades example above. It's a tangled web but what about all the re-cycling of band tracks on the Forte releases by Lee Harris, Marva Whitney (Taylor) and Gene Williams.

I haven't 'continually' got the wrong end of the stick. What was that crap about suffering being at hand if it wasn't a juvenile attempt at a playground-level threat. I've written all I wish to write on this particular topic. If you wish to continue this conversation with me offline I'll send you my phone number and you can ring me to discuss it further if you wish. Clogging up the forum with a spat like this wastes everybody else's time.

Is that an infantile attempt to threaten me? Grow up and move on.

You think? I have never suffered fools particularly gladly.

That's a debate which has been going on here for years. The point I always try to make about that is that at this stage in his career C-Lo Green hardly needs a champion. One of the things the rare soul scene should be rightly proud of is that it has highlighted artists and records which would otherwise have been lost forever. In an ideal world that would lead to some form of financial recompense for all of them but that isn't always possible. However recognition is relatively free and I know that many of the 'lost' artists have been blown away by the fact that somewhere and often after many decades there is some interest in their work. Commerciality and quality isn't always mutually exclusive. Curtis Mayfield, Al Green, Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes, Marvin Gaye and a host of others recorded work which sold in truckloads but which should satisfy the most demanding palate from a qualitative point of view. I certainly have no problems with an artist simply because they happen to sell many records. My issue with this topic as a whole is that Simsy is seeking to get two unrelated issues off his chest. On the one hand he wishes to declare his undying love for the work of C-Lo Green. Fine. I can live with that. On the other he wishes to share his thoughts on some of the 'un-soulful funky stuff' being played at some allnighters these days. The former does not in any way logically resolve (or perhaps even relate to) the latter issue. If a deejay wishing to come on and play 45 minutes of funk-edged obscurities at a nighter scares Simsy off would that same deejay putting on the entirety of the latest C-Lo Green album to fill his spot bring him back into the fold? Of course it wouldn't. It would be preposterous. Would Simsy advocate replacing that 45 minute set with the equivalent time of contemporary uptempo commercial Soul Music as a whole. That would make more sense, but I suspect he would not advocate that as in reality he has no deep abiding interest in, or love of, contemporary soul. Or possibly of soul music in general?

You are wrong. I am right.

The videoclip of C-Loo on Jools Holland is interesting as that's basically a deep soul ballad. Are you saying that records of that type should be played at an allnighter to restore flagging spirits at twenty to six? If deep soul should be played there are literally hundreds of ballad obscurities which would blow that out of the proverbial water: the other sides of the Robert Tanner 45s on Megatone, The Barons Unlimited on III Stars, the Eddie Finley 45s, George Hughley, Sammy Roberson and on and on all make C-Lo Green sound like the mannered exercise in marketing he undoubtedly is now. I'm not saying he doesn't have vocal talent but the best soul music is a truly transcendent artform. This is not it. Sadly i am no longer versed in truly modern soul but I'm sure there are members here who could recommend recent releases by less vaunted artists which would compare very favourably with C-Lo Green. The problem with the other artists is that they don't have the marketing budgets to get A List exposure like appearances on Jools Holland. They are not easily beamed into the living rooms of potential consumers and it requires a degree of effort to listen to their music. Maybe my problem with this thread is the heading: C Lo Green v Funky Newies. The comparison of two things where there are no meaningful grounds for comparison is always unhelpful. It's like comparing George Best with Rugby League. Perhaps this would have been far better as a straightforward appreciation of Mr Green in its own right. It would certainly be less likely to antagonise those who do not necessarily agree with (or understand) the proposition.

Kev the fella who ebayed the last one put two clips up here in the relevant section this week. If anything the record's actually much better than I'd remember it to be.

^ Interesting information Dave. Presumably you are sorted for one.

^ You're right Nev, but the interesting thing is they went for similar money. How many more will emerge now a couple of four figure auction results are achieved?

Despite all the stuff I and others have said about the importance of a good ear and good taste there is no getting away from the fact that you do indeed require a good deal of disposable income to compete in the 'rare northern' arena in 2011. Whether that comes from a large income or the ability to use a large collection built up over years as sale or trade fodder is moot, but you've certainly got to have readies in some form. Ian's point about the lack of a modern day Soul Bowl equivalent is a good one, but the fact is that there are no longer any examples of the kind of thing that used to be the Bowl's stock-in-trade: records which are good, unknown and around in quantity. The pattern was to supply djs, get the records popularised and then sell in quantity. That model no longer exists. The internet and auction sites like ebay have changed things forever. It's fair to say that crap records have never been cheaper, but equally that good, interesting records have never been more expensive. This week the Bernard Drake 45 appeared on ebay for the first time since it went on my wants list five or six years ago. I knew that it would go for money and was looking at records in my own collection I might have to move on in order to put in a realistic bid for it. It finally went for over 22 hundred dollars, a bit of a shock (and not actually that far short of the Nolan Chance Bunky 45 on JM's, a proven rarity of nearly forty years standing). Now the Bernard Drake 45 is not even necessarily a niter record, just a nice southern lilter, but it's an interesting illustration of the apparent market rate for a record which, while not totally unknown, is apparently missing from the collections of many of the premier record hounds. Outside the good and expensive and the cheap and crap there is that vast reservoir of records in the middle: the known, affordable and uninspiring. The kinds of 45s that we've all bought but can't sell. My fear is that it is these kinds of records which a lot of people are using to deejay with these days and it's not good for the scene in the long run. Apart from a few mega-collections at the very top end there is an undeniable lack of depth in the deejaying ranks. Alongside to the attributes needed to compete in 2011 there should be added a ruthless honesty about your own collection. The uncomfortable fact is that the niter scene has stagnated to the extent that it now takes years rather than weeks to break a record nationally. A lot of DJs can now get away with not adding terribly much to their sets over time. I'm sure that the top men could if they wished turn things over much more quickly but is the scene in 2011 actually geared up to accept that?

Why compare C-Lo Green to 'Northern Soul' specifically? And why compare it to forty year old independently produced music? If you do you should surely come to the conclusion that while it is influenced by that music it is inferior on each and every practical level with the exception of record sales. Are you saying there is a major gap in your listening experience at rare soul events because C-Lo Green's music is absent from playlists? His music has none of the profile or texture of anything that should (IMO) be played on a rare soul scene. The early 80s was the last time when current US soul on major labels could have been programmed, and that was possibly stretching it too far for some people.

Agreed. I think the songs themselves may well have originated from OV's Goldwax time, but the sessions sound like the other early Back Beat recordings on that album. Makes me wonder how many OV Wright recording sessions there were in the 60s/70s. I'm guessing not that many. Peaks of productivity and then relative inactivity, with the releases being spread over a good few years. Den: I've not got that Peppermint Harris album and don't know anything about it. Might do a bit of reading on it tonight.

It's a very good record, but interestingly this blog https://www.ovwright.org/giant.html quotes Roosevelt Jamison as saying this was one of the Goldwax recordings which couldn't be issued after Don Robey called in OV's contract in the wake of the success of "That's How Strong My Love Is", so maybe a Memphis (pre-Back Beat) recording after all. According to Jamison the other side of the proposed follow up was "Treasured Moments" which was also eventually issued as the b-side of a later Back Beat 45.

"You're So Good To Me" and "I Have None" are on the "Nucleus Of Soul" album on Back Beat, which is half newer (i.e. 1968) material produced in Memphis by Willie Mitchell and some older material like earlier Back Beat 45 Poor Boy. Difficult to say if the 1965-66 cuts are recorded in Texas.

Just that one on volume 2 and "I Found A True Love" (one of the Lee J. 45s) on volume 1. "Sittin' Here Crying" sounds like it was dubbed from disk, maybe an acetate.

Interesting. Somehow it seems less appealing to learn it's a band with an amusing or intriguing name rather than an individual with an unfortunate one. Thanks for the Gerald Dickerson information. Dickerson/Garner/Hathaway was the team behind Maurice Jackson's "Lucky Fellow" among others.

Aha. Thanks for clearing that up Bob.