Swing Value Please

[Prophonics 2029]

https://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Northern-Soul-TOM...1QQcmdZViewItem

How much should this go for.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Prophonics 2029

[Harrogatesoul]

That would be Butchs' old Jerry Williams cover up wouldn't it? Manship had a copy earlier this year I think - Cant remember how much it went for but it was lots!

Rich

[Prophonics 2029]

Proper Bo this tune

[Dave Abbott]

Yes, the C/U - think it went for about £2.6k - Tim B's auction in December went for £2.2k

[Chalky]

Yes, the C/U - think it went for about £2.6k - Tim B's auction in December went for £2.2k

both cheap if you ask me considering how rare it is and the quality.

[Harrogatesoul]

both cheap if you ask me considering how rare it is and the quality.

Where does this fit in with his other material? Is it post Okeh / pre KoKo? I see its from a Memphis seller - Is this the source of the label?

Rich

[Dave Abbott]

Where does this fit in with his other material? Is it post Okeh / pre KoKo? I see its from a Memphis seller - Is this the source of the label?

Rich

Nicely/Yes/Yes

see Tim Whitsetts info from Dave's site (bottom of page) https://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/ttate.htm

[Raresoul45s]

Be interesting to see what it goes for I swapped a Red issue copy of Jimmy Delphs - Dancing a hole for mine on Jms Auction the cash value was £2.4k. I reckon it could go for even more, as people are hearing it more and more and Ive had big offers for mine which I wont be selling ever as its just pure class.

However saying all that it was played at Berkley early, on Saturday night and correct me if Im wrong but no one danced although somone did have a look at the record as she took it off the decks. I suppose its wait for the shoot out towards the end of the auction be interesting anything under £2k and its a bargain when put along side other so called rarities and big ticket items.

Darren

[boba]

Where does this fit in with his other material? Is it post Okeh / pre KoKo? I see its from a Memphis seller - Is this the source of the label?

Rich

I went to their store (Goner Records) a week ago when I was in memphis -- definitely worth checking out if you were there as they had lots of good soul 45s.

[Shsdave]

I went to their store (Goner Records) a week ago when I was in memphis -- definitely worth checking out if you were there as they had lots of good soul 45s.

Fantastic tune whatever the price

[Harrogatesoul]

Nicely/Yes/Yes

see Tim Whitsetts info from Dave's site (bottom of page) https://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/ttate.htm

Thanks Dave for that

I went to their store (Goner Records) a week ago when I was in memphis -- definitely worth checking out if you were there as they had lots of good soul 45s.

I wish Bob! One day..

Best

Rich

[Dave Abbott]

Be interesting to see what it goes for I swapped a Red issue copy of Jimmy Delphs - Dancing a hole for mine on Jms Auction the cash value was £2.4k. I reckon it could go for even more, as people are hearing it more and more and Ive had big offers for mine which I wont be selling ever as its just pure class.

However saying all that it was played at Berkley early, on Saturday night and correct me if Im wrong but no one danced although somone did have a look at the record as she took it off the decks. I suppose its wait for the shoot out towards the end of the auction be interesting anything under £2k and its a bargain when put along side other so called rarities and big ticket items.

Darren

I would take Tommy over Delphs any day...and it will go for more i reckon. i missed it at this Berkley (a tad too late) but at the last Berkley there were plenty of dancers.

[Raresoul45s]

I would take Tommy over Delphs any day...and it will go for more i reckon. i missed it at this Berkley (a tad too late) but at the last Berkley there were plenty of dancers.

Yeah my thoughts exactly Tommy for delphs no brainer, also if your cheque books big enough I just saw a Margaret Little on the bay as well. Imagine picking up your mail one morning and theres a tommy Ds and a Madge Little waiting for you. Catch you at Berkley some time.

[Prophonics 2029]

Hope not my letter box is too small and it would mean the postman had folded the records in half to get them through the door.

[Dave Abbott]

Yeah my thoughts exactly Tommy for delphs no brainer, also if your cheque books big enough I just saw a Margaret Little on the bay as well. Imagine picking up your mail one morning and theres a tommy Ds and a Madge Little waiting for you. Catch you at Berkley some time.

!!! a dream situation IMO!! both superb records and both i would dearly love to have - and both i guess 'newies'. i think the instananiance appeal of Madge Liccle may win over the superbness of Tommy - i don't know...3 or 4 Madges' to 5 or 6 Tommy's - i think both own the right to be up there with the best; but i think i would go for Tommy for the quality...

[Prophonics 2029]

Madge Little has the best B-side.

[Souljazera]

seems to be a few about

[gonerrecords]

I went to their store (Goner Records) a week ago when I was in memphis -- definitely worth checking out if you were there as they had lots of good soul 45s.

Thanks for the kind words about the shop, Bob. Glad you stopped by. Hope you enjoyed Memphis - I'm sure you managed to get into some sort of trouble with Sambeaux...

[Jerry Hipkiss]

Have to say this is one that really stuck in my mind at the weekend!

[Koolkat]

WOW!!!! What a double sider. Only just heard it off of Ebay. Brilliant just brilliant.

[Sean Hampsey]

I went to their store (Goner Records) a week ago when I was in memphis -- definitely worth checking out if you were there as they had lots of good soul 45s.

Me too Bob, Great store.

Probably the best in Memphis nowadays.

Had an absolute field day.

Some cracking albums too.

Back to the 45... isn't it odd that Tommy Tate ended up on lead vocal here?

Tommy & The Derbys comprised of Tommy Gadson (James Gadson's Brother - the drummer and vocalist on his own 'Got To Find My Baby' on Cream) and others (inc Marva Whitney at one time).

They were a Kansas group, before Tommy split for fame and fortune in LA (as a guitarist he recorded with EVERYBODY).

So when he left, is that when Tate came in, to do this one 45 as, essentialy, the 'new' Tommy?

Sean

Edited August 28, 2008 by Sean Hampsey

[boba]

Me too Bob, Great store.

Probably the best in Memphis nowadays.

Had an absolute field day.

Some cracking albums too.

Back to the 45... isn't it odd that Tommy Tate ended up on lead vocal here?

Tommy & The Derbys comprised of Tommy Gadson (James Gadson's Brother - the drummer and vocalist on his own 'Got To Find My Baby' on Cream) and others (inc Marva Whitney at one time).

They were a Kansas group, before Tommy split for fame and fortune in LA (as a guitarist he recorded with EVERYBODY).

So when he left, is that when Tate came in, to do this one 45 as, essentialy, the 'new' Tommy?

Sean

I can't actually verify who is the lead (and the gadson thing makes sense), but a UK DJ told me that he knew it was tommy tate because there was an interview with tommy tate somewhere where he mentions his first recording as "handy andy". I don't know the actual interview and haven't seen it, i'm just relaying what I heard and what I think is the source of people saying tommy tate is the lead.

[Russ Vickers]

Me too Bob, Great store.

Probably the best in Memphis nowadays.

Had an absolute field day.

Some cracking albums too.

Back to the 45... isn't it odd that Tommy Tate ended up on lead vocal here?

Tommy & The Derbys comprised of Tommy Gadson (James Gadson's Brother - the drummer and vocalist on his own 'Got To Find My Baby' on Cream) and others (inc Marva Whitney at one time).

They were a Kansas group, before Tommy split for fame and fortune in LA (as a guitarist he recorded with EVERYBODY).

So when he left, is that when Tate came in, to do this one 45 as, essentialy, the 'new' Tommy?

Sean

Sean, as far as Im aware, the Kansas City group have no connection. This is basically Tim Whitsett's Imperial Showband, with Tommy on lead & Dorothy Moore backing..............it was recorded in the grease pit of a garage !!!!............the fore runner to the Grits n Gravy Studios !!!!!. You are quite right in saying Marva Whitney was a one time member of the Kansas City TATD tho'.

At present Tommy is in a care home confined to a wheel chair, I have tried to find out if he can get access to the internet, as we should email him to wish him well.........still waiting for a confirmation tho',

Hope this helps, Dave Abbott did a lot of research & may be able to add to this.

BTW This is deffo Tommy Tate, confirmed by TW & others.

Russ

Edited August 28, 2008 by Russ Vickers

[Dave Abbott]

Back to the 45... isn't it odd that Tommy Tate ended up on lead vocal here?

Tommy & The Derbys comprised of Tommy Gadson (James Gadson's Brother - the drummer and vocalist on his own 'Got To Find My Baby' on Cream) and others (inc Marva Whitney at one time).

They were a Kansas group, before Tommy split for fame and fortune in LA (as a guitarist he recorded with EVERYBODY).

So when he left, is that when Tate came in, to do this one 45 as, essentialy, the 'new' Tommy?

Sean

Different group Sean. This is the only 45 this T&theD group released and i think the only release on the Swing label as label owner Bob McRee would often use different artist names and lable names as Tim Whitsett explained to me...

".....Even sadder, Cliff told me Bob had stored all their masters and tapes in an unairconditioned storehouse, in which the temperature soared well over 150 degrees during the summer, rendering all their years of work a useless glob of melted plastic. (This may be the reason Bob has disappeared from view. Wouldn't you?)

I seem to remember (but perhaps not accurately) that they used pseudonyms at times when an artist was still tied to a label under a deal they'd made previously, and they wanted to make a deal with another label. Examples: Dottie Cambridge on MGM (aka Dorothy Moore), and Tommy Yates (Tommy Tate) on Verve.

Parenthetically, indie producers in those days focused on making "records," not building artist careers. Deals made with majors were always for singles. If the single hit, there would be options for follow-up singles and an album. If the single flopped, that was the end of that. Pre-1967 or '68, albums were an afterthought; hit singles were the be-all end-all."

[Sean Hampsey]

Many thanks Russ & Dave.

Still a bit odd though, don't you think?

TWO groups sharing the same 'quite unusual' name?

Seems no rational for the combination of 'Tommy' and 'Derby' that I can think of, but I'm sure your explanation is correct.

Certainly this is Tommy Tate.

Andy Dyson played me the track 'blind' and I identified it as TT first guess.

No mistaking the vocal as Tate's to my ears.

Still find the occurence of two unrelated 'Tommy & The Derbys' as quite strange though.

Sean

[Maria O]

Sean, as far as Im aware, the Kansas City group have no connection. This is basically Tim Whitsett's Imperial Showband, with Tommy on lead & Dorothy Moore backing..............it was recorded in the grease pit of a garage !!!!............the fore runner to the Grits n Gravy Studios !!!!!. You are quite right in saying Marva Whitney was a one time member of the Kansas City TATD tho'.

I picked up a copy last year after seeing it amongst a bunch of others in an auction. I actually forgot to bid on it , then tracked down the seller who put me on to the new buyer. We had no idea what it was worth, but we finally agreed about 50% over the whole auction price for this one record in about 50-100 records. In the end, it worked out about £78 (with postage).

I also chased up the group and thought that it must be Marva Whitney in the backing as she sang with a group with the same bizarre name. I found other members of the group and finally a contact name (or two). Lots of emails were exchanged.

But no, it is not the same group and has absolutely no connection as far as I could find.

Unfortunately, my next step could prove fatal after admitting this:

After reading and posting in [THIS THREAD] last January, a couple of guys called RussV and DaveA PM'd me and sent me on a new direction of Dorothy Moore singing the backup (and Tommy Tate on vocals). They had done extensive research already, but they understood when I would not give them the real name, which was very honorable of them I thought. Obviously, I then found Tim Whitsett and asked him about the group only to discover that he had forgotten all about them . Unfortunately, he assumed by my email address that I was living in Australia and then also emailed back a few guys who had asked about the Tommy Tate track. He also wrote a lot of background about the group and recording (which I assume he copied to others).

Regardless of Mr Rimmer saying [iN THIS THREAD] that Tim Whitsett should know because he was in the band ...well he had forgotten enough not to be able to advise anyone else asking for a Tommy Tate track with that title (or similar), until some idiot twigged his memory banks.

...I am sure that it was near being uncovered, but it still makes me feel sick.

Whilst I do talk a lot, I carry secrets to my grave and it's not in my nature to normally give anything like this away.

Hopefully it's a valuable lesson to the rest of you who like to find records themselves and also artists to email chat with, but hate to see prices hyped.

m

[Mal C]

I picked up a copy last year after seeing it amongst a bunch of others in an auction. I actually forgot to bid on it , then tracked down the seller who put me on to the new buyer. We had no idea what it was worth, but we finally agreed about 50% over the whole auction price for this one record in about 50-100 records. In the end, it worked out about £78 (with postage).

I also chased up the group and thought that it must be Marva Whitney in the backing as she sang with a group with the same bizarre name. I found other members of the group and finally a contact name (or two). Lots of emails were exchanged.

But no, it is not the same group and has absolutely no connection as far as I could find.

Unfortunately, my next step could prove fatal after admitting this:

After reading and posting in [THIS THREAD] last January, a couple of guys called RussV and DaveA PM'd me and sent me on a new direction of Dorothy Moore singing the backup (and Tommy Tate on vocals). They had done extensive research already, but they understood when I would not give them the real name, which was very honorable of them I thought. Obviously, I then found Tim Whitsett and asked him about the group only to discover that he had forgotten all about them . Unfortunately, he assumed by my email address that I was living in Australia and then also emailed back a few guys who had asked about the Tommy Tate track. He also wrote a lot of background about the group and recording (which I assume he copied to others).

Regardless of Mr Rimmer saying [iN THIS THREAD] that Tim Whitsett should know because he was in the band ...well he had forgotten enough not to be able to advise anyone else asking for a Tommy Tate track with that title (or similar), until some idiot twigged his memory banks.

...I am sure that it was near being uncovered, but it still makes me feel sick.

Whilst I do talk a lot, I carry secrets to my grave and it's not in my nature to normally give anything like this away.

Hopefully it's a valuable lesson to the rest of you who like to find records themselves and also artists to email chat with, but hate to see prices hyped.

m

Remember Arthur mentioned on the Dance floor you had picked this up very cheap last year at your Birthday bash, that was just after Tim Brown had sold / Auction another copy..

I was impressed!!

Mal

[Dysonsoul]

Many thanks Russ & Dave.

Still a bit odd though, don't you think?

TWO groups sharing the same 'quite unusual' name?

Seems no rational for the combination of 'Tommy' and 'Derby' that I can think of, but I'm sure your explanation is correct.

Certainly this is Tommy Tate.

Andy Dyson played me the track 'blind' and I identified it as TT first guess.

No mistaking the vocal as Tate's to my ears.

Still find the occurence of two unrelated 'Tommy & The Derbys' as quite strange though.

Sean

QUITE RIGHT SEAN,LET'S BE A TOUCH SIMPLISTIC THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON THAT SOUNDS ANYTHING LIKE TOMMY TATE...

[Chalky]

I seem to remember (but perhaps not accurately) that they used pseudonyms at times when an artist was still tied to a label under a deal they'd made previously, and they wanted to make a deal with another label. Examples: Dottie Cambridge on MGM (aka Dorothy Moore), and Tommy Yates (Tommy Tate) on Verve.

Parenthetically, indie producers in those days focused on making "records," not building artist careers. Deals made with majors were always for singles. If the single hit, there would be options for follow-up singles and an album. If the single flopped, that was the end of that. Pre-1967 or '68, albums were an afterthought; hit singles were the be-all end-all."

I would assume Tommy at the time of the Swing release would have been signed to either ABC or Okeh

[Dave Abbott]

I would assume Tommy at the time of the Swing release would have been signed to either ABC or Okeh

i think TimW was making a general statement of the practise of the time of pseudonyms; i think it would be probalby Okeh, (in which case that is why the Verve track came out as Yates as he was signed to Okeh).

[Dave Rimmer]

Regardless of Mr Rimmer saying [iN THIS THREAD] that Tim Whitsett should know because he was in the band ...well he had forgotten enough not to be able to advise anyone else asking for a Tommy Tate track with that title (or similar), until some idiot twigged his memory banks.

Yes I said that Tim Whitset should know, because I was already in contact with him about other aspects of the discography. Do you think he just picked me at random and then emailed me information about a record at random.

I'll happily admit I had no idea who the record was prior to Tim emailing me. However, Soulful Kinda Music is primarily a site about Soul music discographies, and if an artist emails me with a correction to a discography, I'm going to include that on the site. I'm certainly not going to say I can't include the information he has given me because it might upset someone in the UK because they have got the record covered up !

To expect that is both selfish and ridiculous !

[Maria O]

Yes I said that Tim Whitset should know, because I was already in contact with him about other aspects of the discography. Do you think he just picked me at random and then emailed me information about a record at random.

I'll happily admit I had no idea who the record was prior to Tim emailing me. However, Soulful Kinda Music is primarily a site about Soul music discographies, and if an artist emails me with a correction to a discography, I'm going to include that on the site. I'm certainly not going to say I can't include the information he has given me because it might upset someone in the UK because they have got the record covered up !

To expect that is both selfish and ridiculous !

Dave,

Apologies, but the post I had read then, implied that you had contacted Tim after someone wrote that your discography was incorrect.

A few UK guys were in contact with Tim regarding Tommy Tate at the time I wrote to him (including those asking about this particular record). In case there is any doubt, I was calling myself an idiot for jogging his memory about the band name

- although he wrote that he had been meaning to ask others, so guess it would have come out soon.

I am grateful for online discographies and use them a lot to join the dots. I appreciate your efforts.

However, I am also selfish and ridiculous at times too ...but you already knew that!

m

[Dave Rimmer]

Dave,

Apologies, but the post I had read then, implied that you had contacted Tim after someone wrote that your discography was incorrect.

A few UK guys were in contact with Tim regarding Tommy Tate at the time I wrote to him (including those asking about this particular record). In case there is any doubt, I was calling myself an idiot for jogging his memory about the band name

- although he wrote that he had been meaning to ask others, so guess it would have come out soon.

I am grateful for online discographies and use them a lot to join the dots. I appreciate your efforts.

However, I am also selfish and ridiculous at times too ...but you already knew that!

m

Apology accepted, and of course you are selfish and riduculous at times.......you're a woman aren't you

[gonerrecords]

for anyone that is interested - we've relisted our copy of this record - the winning bidder failed to complete the transaction the first time around...

https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=220385194943