Promoters, Whats Going On ?

[Guest Timothy]

ok, lets say a promoter puts a venue on, he employs big name dj's to play original vinyl, but he gives himself prime time spots & plays an all bootleg set. is this cricket ?

would be interested to know other peoples views on this.

[Guest]

ok, lets say a promoter puts a venue on, he employs big name dj's to play original vinyl, but he gives himself prime time spots & plays an all bootleg set. is this cricket ?

would be interested to know other peoples views on this.

Stupid question,he can do what he likes it his/her do.

[Guest Bearsy]

Crazy thing to do my opinion, maybe thats why they promote just so they can do a spot and get their name in lights

[Harrogatesoul]

Axe...Grind...Politics...Northern Soul....

Rich

[Guest toby]

ok, lets say a promoter puts a venue on, he employs big name dj's to play original vinyl, but he gives himself prime time spots & plays an all bootleg set. is this cricket ?

would be interested to know other peoples views on this.

I along with Mandy went to this event,i was slighty dissapointed to the fact that there were good Djs that got very very early spots that sadly went to waste,but its not my event so its not my decision to put Djs on etc.

But in saying that THE crowd we were with made it ok.

[Simon M]

Did the boots sound good ?

[Dave Morris]

Did the boots sound good ?

And were they made for walking.Sorry couldn't resist.

Dave

[Hold Tight]

Crazy thing to do my opinion, maybe thats why they promote just so they can do a spot and get their name in lights

Not all promoters can be tarred with that brush though Bearsy. I for one don't do that and alternate my spots and in some cases even let the other DJ's sort out the items putting me in wherever is left.

The two things - promoting and DJ'ing - are not mutually excusive, if you are promoting a night then you have to put that, over any ego you might have. I have even taken the stance that if I am to busy with stuff I will have to drop out of the deck slots as the nights are not for me but the people who pay on the door and should run smoothly. You for one know how many venue owners I have told to shove it up their A**e when they start to take the mickey over prices or whatever.

I spend most of my time on the door greeting people who come in much like Moldie does at Lightwater and I believe I am sure many others do.

If you want to promote a night to see your name in lights forget it, its a big pain in the arse to promote most of the time, although having said that if people enjoy themselves I feel that I have managed - with the help of the guys and girls who support me by DJ'ing at the nights - to achieve something worthwhile.

On the matter of boots - I make it a point to not play them in my sets. I cannot comment on why other promoters would as it would depend on the type of nights they are running I suppose. After all there was the top 500 CD night in London - whcih filled a place in the market for spreading the gospel of soul.

Whereas if you are running a rare soul night it is a bit of a faux paus to say the least. I love collecting vinyl and playing out unusual stuff to people. Sometimes it bombs but I believe in the tracks and some who listen do to. I also try not to play anything I know guests or other DJ's have.

Mark.

[Chris L]

Axe...Grind...Politics...Northern Soul....

Rich

........................

[Guest Matt Male]

ok, lets say a promoter puts a venue on, he employs big name dj's to play original vinyl, but he gives himself prime time spots & plays an all bootleg set. is this cricket ?

would be interested to know other peoples views on this.

In my opinion the only thing that matters is what he tells his punters and what he puts on his flyers. Yes he can demand OVO from the other DJs and play boots as long as punters aren't told it's all original vinyl only.

This isn't a hypothetical question then?

Edited August 28, 2007 by Matt Male

[Guest Trevski]

ok, lets say a promoter puts a venue on, he employs big name dj's to play original vinyl, but he gives himself prime time spots & plays an all bootleg set. is this cricket ?

would be interested to know other peoples views on this.

If he wants to make himself look like a right twat, then yes!

OV or nothing IMHO. Would not knowingly attend, or DJ at a venue where they play boots.

[Guest Timothy]

This isn't a hypothetical question then?

yes, lets keep it to a hypothetical situation. the dj's turn up at the gig with their boxes of original vinyl & the promoter goes on in a prime time slot & plays a load of bootlegs. i know it doesn't sound possible, but lets just pretend. would this be an acceptable thing these days?

[Guest dundeedavie]

yes, lets keep it to a hypothetical situation. the dj's turn up at the gig with their boxes of original vinyl & the promoter goes on in a prime time slot & plays a load of bootlegs. i know it doesn't sound possible, but lets just pretend. would this be an acceptable thing these days?

it's a question people can only on a personal level ...this has happened to me and it's crap , it wasn't acceptable then and it's not acceptable now

[Guest]

this just seems like another way of arguing the original v boot debate to me

[macca]

Original vinyl, all the time. Respect is the operative word, especially to those around you. I'm there pulling stuff out for my spot & the hypothetical bootster, finishing his set, sticks on the Del-Larks. What do I do with my real one? Meekly file it back in alphabetical order & say not tonight josephine? We're talking prime time spots, aren't we? Is it any more ethical at early doors? I think not.

M

p.s. I don't own the del-larks, but as we're talking about a fictitious person at a fictitious venue, spinning fictitious records, it serves the purpose of debate, which is why we're here, innit?

Edited August 28, 2007 by macca

[Guest]

All too often promoters give themselves the best times for dj'ing after spending good money on guests which i find bizarre. So i tend to think there are quite a few who promote gigs purely to be able to dj.

Most of my favourite venues over the years have had promoters who did just that promoted , some did an early warm-up slot but most concentrated on making sure the nite/niter ran smoothly.

Derek

[Guest]

yes, lets keep it to a hypothetical situation. the dj's turn up at the gig with their boxes of original vinyl & the promoter goes on in a prime time slot & plays a load of bootlegs. i know it doesn't sound possible, but lets just pretend. would this be an acceptable thing these days?

well I'm sure it happens at many places. A few spring to mind, one in particular that has been running a very long time. (Not US btw!!), Jonesy does the hard work (arguably ) and then gets to DJ during the quietest spots at the start and end!.

Some might say if they've done the hard work and taken the risk on the night then their reward to themselves is whatever spot they want!.

Maybe some promotor/DJ's might prefer to give themselves the prime spot to enable them to keep a kinda control on the direction of the music policy... (yes I know, it begs the question that you should consider that when you book your DJ's but you'd be surprised how many promotors still feel the need to advise DJ's what to play after they've booked them).

Jayne.x.

[Guest]

If you want to promote a night to see your name in lights forget it, its a big pain in the arse to promote most of the time, although having said that if people enjoy themselves I feel that I have managed - with the help of the guys and girls who support me by DJ'ing at the nights - to achieve something worthwhile.

Mark.

Hi Mark,

I dont know, I can think of a few DJ's who've got tons more bookings and became much more successful and well known DJ's after they'd got a sucessful venue under their belt. As you know, Many other promotors book dj's who have a regular local crowd of their own, hoping to draw that crowd to their venue as well as wanting to book the DJ for what their spot would bring.

When it becomes a big pain in the arse to promote, surely it's time to stop?.

Jayne.x.

[Dave]

yes, lets keep it to a hypothetical situation. the dj's turn up at the gig with their boxes of original vinyl & the promoter goes on in a prime time slot & plays a load of bootlegs. i know it doesn't sound possible, but lets just pretend. would this be an acceptable thing these days?

Hypothetical? Hypocrytical, more like!

Stop fannying about!

On the thread you started in lookbacks you stated that the promoter of the Dedicated sc, i.e. Dave Reed plays bootlegs. So, can you stand by that statement... or not???!!!

[macca]

the world has the right to know!

[Shaun W]

yes, lets keep it to a hypothetical situation. the dj's turn up at the gig with their boxes of original vinyl & the promoter goes on in a prime time slot & plays a load of bootlegs. i know it doesn't sound possible, but lets just pretend. would this be an acceptable thing these days?

I guess it's ok just as long as the hypothetical promoter doesn't force you to attend his venue, pay your entrance money, and then listen to him play his collection of bootlegs.

If you don't like a promoters music policy don't attend their venue. Alternatively you could find a venue and promote your own night. Having said that there might just be a few too many venues about at the moment to make this a viable option, not that this seems to stop people.

[Mark Bicknell]

Sorry can't sleep had a crazy Sunday night and it's buggered my sleep pattern....lol this old chestnut again! firstly I would like to think from my own personal perspective that when I'm kindly asked to DJ the booking is based on merrit, entertainment value, reputation, depth of collection being authentic first generation USA originals whatever the style of tuneage and not because I'm buddies with the promoter although I know most of them, well I would like to think that I'm booked for the above reasons rather than simply knowing them, some venues I will not get asked due to music policy etc. rather than anything personal and I respect that.

How other DJ's conduct themselves and how they apply themselves to the job in hand is up to them, personally I do the best I can within my means and always do it by going down the original only route, I think it's a bit of a kop - out to use the excuse of being a local event so it's ok to play non original records as I've said before the very foundation of this scene and it's music is based on rare records, rare by defernition means hard to find and not often seen, I'm not just talking about the super rare big ticket items here I'm talking right across the bat, be it a five pound or five thousand pound original, for many DJ's the original only format is paramount and yes if it brings a solid reputation, status etc. then so be it, Why? is it some how elitist to apply the original record only rule, over the years I've noticed a whole hotch potch of different DJ record boxes up on various stages both at local and national bigger events again it's up to them how they apply their craft but please don't make excuses or try to deflect or pretend to be totally authentic if some record boxes ain't what they seem.There is also the view that the dance floor don't care what format a tune is played off which may well be the case but would it not be fair to sugget that if a DJ goes down the original only route if nothing else he or she is being true to themselves and the authenticity of the records they play? often it seems to me that the pro non original or part original mix type DJ's are the ones that say it's ok to do what they do and somehow have a real problem with anyone who questions their methods? again it's a personal thing and I guess we have to live with and respect all camps on this debate, but think about it and the only argument or plus here is a good spot is a good spot and is based on quality of music supplied, sure you can play a turkey with a full box of originals as you can with a mixed box but again I feel it's about authenticity here.

All DJ's have the best intentions at heart I'm sure, they play records because they enjoy it and give pleasure to many, I'm sorry but the old saying 'It's What's In The Groove That Counts' does not wash with me but again I do not have the right to tell someone else who chooses the non original or part original record route that they are wrong and should not be DJ'ing, it's up to them but let me tell you in some circles this is not held in very high regard and that's just the way it is, ok we don't all have all of the records, top tunes or otherwise but there are a large number of current DJ's and collector DJ's that take a great deal of time, effort, pride, commitment and money to put a true and authentic box together which for many is an on going practice so this has to be respected too in the same way as others do it.

To suggest because you collect and play authentic records is somehow elitist is a complete nonsense it should be embraced and as I say it is basically the very foundation of the RARE soul scene.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Mark Bicknell

[Guest SteveC]

there are a large number of current DJ's and collector DJ's that take a great deal of time, effort, pride, commitment and money to put a true and authentic box together which for many is an on going practice so this has to be respected too in the same way as others do it.

To suggest because you collect and play authentic records is somehow elitist is a complete nonsense it should be embraced and as I say it is basically the very foundation of the RARE soul scene.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Perfect Mark

[Keithw]

Perfect Mark

spot on Mark

i d.j ,ed at a club where the promoter used to play tapes of people that had done spots before

cause being me i talked in the middle of each record,so he couldnt do it

real soul----real vinyl

not against people cutting dubs of lp /cd new release tracks if they have bought it and dont wanna carry about

also people boot records because of the demand when the original is played

so no originals..............

been a few doo,s where lp tracks of 10-00 originals are played,pathetic

[Martint]

To suggest because you collect and play authentic records is somehow elitist is a complete nonsense it should be embraced and as I say it is basically the very foundation of the RARE soul scene.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

hear hear. The other old chestnut is "why should only rich people be able to DJ etc" well the fact is that MOST people who have built up a DJ box of originals - be they £10 or £500 records (because I appreciate that a £10 record is not a trivial spend for many people) have done so over a long time by wheeling, dealing, sacrificing, searching and generally working bloody hard to get wherever they are with their boxes. There are plenty of people, (too many in fact ) with proper DJ boxes full of proper records ready to entertain you..... there's simply no excuse for bootlegs IMO.

Martin

[mischief]

Pees you off when you follow a dj that only plays boots..

payday umm i'll buy 15 new big tunes at lunchtime... easy all this record buying lark..

[Wilxy]

Sorry can't sleep had a crazy Sunday night and it's buggered my sleep pattern....lol this old chestnut again! firstly I would like to think from my own personal perspective that when I'm kindly asked to DJ the booking is based on merrit, entertainment value, reputation, depth of collection being authentic first generation USA originals whatever the style of tuneage and not because I'm buddies with the promoter although I know most of them, well I would like to think that I'm booked for the above reasons rather than simply knowing them, some venues I will not get asked due to music policy etc. rather than anything personal and I respect that.

How other DJ's conduct themselves and how they apply themselves to the job in hand is up to them, personally I do the best I can within my means and always do it by going down the original only route, I think it's a bit of a kop - out to use the excuse of being a local event so it's ok to play non original records as I've said before the very foundation of this scene and it's music is based on rare records, rare by defernition means hard to find and not often seen, I'm not just talking about the super rare big ticket items here I'm talking right across the bat, be it a five pound or five thousand pound original, for many DJ's the original only format is paramount and yes if it brings a solid reputation, status etc. then so be it, Why? is it some how elitist to apply the original record only rule, over the years I've noticed a whole hotch potch of different DJ record boxes up on various stages both at local and national bigger events again it's up to them how they apply their craft but please don't make excuses or try to deflect or pretend to be totally authentic if some record boxes ain't what they seem.There is also the view that the dance floor don't care what format a tune is played off which may well be the case but would it not be fair to sugget that if a DJ goes down the original only route if nothing else he or she is being true to themselves and the authenticity of the records they play? often it seems to me that the pro non original or part original mix type DJ's are the ones that say it's ok to do what they do and somehow have a real problem with anyone who questions their methods? again it's a personal thing and I guess we have to live with and respect all camps on this debate, but think about it and the only argument or plus here is a good spot is a good spot and is based on quality of music supplied, sure you can play a turkey with a full box of originals as you can with a mixed box but again I feel it's about authenticity here.

All DJ's have the best intentions at heart I'm sure, they play records because they enjoy it and give pleasure to many, I'm sorry but the old saying 'It's What's In The Groove That Counts' does not wash with me but again I do not have the right to tell someone else who chooses the non original or part original record route that they are wrong and should not be DJ'ing, it's up to them but let me tell you in some circles this is not held in very high regard and that's just the way it is, ok we don't all have all of the records, top tunes or otherwise but there are a large number of current DJ's and collector DJ's that take a great deal of time, effort, pride, commitment and money to put a true and authentic box together which for many is an on going practice so this has to be respected too in the same way as others do it.

To suggest because you collect and play authentic records is somehow elitist is a complete nonsense it should be embraced and as I say it is basically the very foundation of the RARE soul scene.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Absolutely agree Mark, unfortunately it seems that some of the original ethics are overlooked by virtue of them being outdated

[Mark Bicknell]

Absolutely agree Mark, unfortunately it seems that some of the original ethics are overlooked by virtue of them being outdated

Nice reply there Wilxy but how can following if you like an unwritten rule within some DJ circles be an outdated one when the ethics are the same? be it then, now or in the future, do you mean that collecting original records for the purpose of DJ'ing has changed or stopped? perhaps not outdated more the case that some people move the goalposts to justify short cuts maybe? using the excuse that they can't afford certain records, well being totally honest and upfront the saying 'If You Can't Stand The Heat Then Get Out Of The Kitchen' springs to mind or don't enter it in the first place if you can't cook yet? again just my opinion.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Modernsoulsucks]

I wouldn't play boots personally but if you're a dj and your spot can be decimated by someone playing pressings before you isn't it time for you to freshen up your own playlist? Just play something that hasn't been booted?

ROD

[Simon M]

I wouldn't play boots personally but if you're a dj and your spot can be decimated by someone playing pressings before you isn't it time for you to freshen up your own playlist? Just play something that hasn't been booted?

ROD

I was just thinking that . I dont think any of the stuff Ive recently spun has been booted , but of course its 70's to the present day

I think this is the most pertinent point on this thread ,

Edited August 29, 2007 by Simon M

[Little-stevie]

Can we have a name of the said event and promoter please..

Maybe they should have the same test as we did to see if someone was a witch..

Trevski can get the ducking stool ready..Why bother with a real Robert Tanner,i am sure the boots sound just as good ..

Edited August 29, 2007 by little-stevie

[Mark Bicknell]

As is stated on many topics and threads on this forum it's about personal taste, preference and opinion and as I stated in my original post here we all do what we do in different ways, I simply do it the best and only way I know how which works for me.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Ian Seaman]

What about the storys of well respected DJ's who have spent £2k on a bootleg and played it out for ages till he found out it was a boot, does that count ?? ( source JM, about a week ago on another thread !!)

Wasn't there a thread on here ages ago about several top DJ's playing bootlegs with photocopys of original labels stuck on them ?

Ian.

[sister dawn]

What about the storys of well respected DJ's who have spent £2k on a bootleg and played it out for ages till he found out it was a boot, does that count ?? ( source JM, about a week ago on another thread !!)

Wasn't there a thread on here ages ago about several top DJ's playing bootlegs with photocopys of original labels stuck on them ?

Ian.

now thats been going on since the year dot.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Simon, that's only because they're not worth booting!!!!

Mark, I agree with everything you said. I was thinking of the hypothetical Del-Larks dilemna. I took that example to mean that you have a very rare original worth a lot of money that the dj has spent time ,effort or money acquiring and he can't play it because someone just spun the boot, and he's gutted. I'd just ask why in 2007 a dj would think that his spot is compromised when he could play something else if like you he was a collector with a depth to his playbox, and of course bearing in mind that we have all heard the Del-Larks quite a few times.

ROD

[Simon M]

Simon, that's only because they're not worth booting!!!!

Hmmm well Im sort of thankfull for that

Edited August 29, 2007 by Simon M

[Mark Bicknell]

What about the storys of well respected DJ's who have spent £2k on a bootleg and played it out for ages till he found out it was a boot, does that count ?? ( source JM, about a week ago on another thread !!)

Wasn't there a thread on here ages ago about several top DJ's playing bootlegs with photocopys of original labels stuck on them ?

Ian.

Regarding spending £2k on a bootleg and playing it that's more down to not knowing your subject I feel, researching the authenticity of a record by checking and asking questions before you buy it is paramount or just plain common sense, sometimes people don't like to admit lack of knowledge, bugger that if you are prepared to shell out that kind of money every avenue of making sure the record is right should be followed, moaning about it after the mistake is made well you only have yourself to blame basically.

As for photocopied labels over bootlegs again cutting corners and is a sad reflection of the whole point of this thread, as there is no easy route or short cuts here as you simply get found out.

Regards - Mark Bicknell

[Modernsoulsucks]

Who spent 2K on a bootleg!! It's like the Masons on here with all the secrecy. I've rolled up my trouser leg, can someone enlighten me.

ROD

[Guest]

Who spent 2K on a bootleg!! It's like the Masons on here with all the secrecy. I've rolled up my trouser leg, can someone enlighten me.

ROD

Obviously someone with more money than knowledge (or sense?)

Derek

[Little-stevie]

Obviously someone with more money than knowledge (or sense?)

Derek

[mischief]

or maybe they knew the seller and trusted thier judgement

[Guest]

or maybe they knew the seller and trusted thier judgement

In the highly unlikely event i was going to shell out 2k on a 45 i would not take the seller whoever they may be at their word. A bit of research never goes wrong does it?

Derek

[Pauldonnelly]

Nice reply there Wilxy but how can following if you like an unwritten rule within some DJ circles be an outdated one when the ethics are the same? be it then, now or in the future, do you mean that collecting original records for the purpose of DJ'ing has changed or stopped? perhaps not outdated more the case that some people move the goalposts to justify short cuts maybe? using the excuse that they can't afford certain records, well being totally honest and upfront the saying 'If You Can't Stand The Heat Then Get Out Of The Kitchen' springs to mind or don't enter it in the first place if you can't cook yet? again just my opinion.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Mick, Ray and myself run a small venue in Peterborough that has one simple rule, play what the hell you want but please refrain from playing bootlegs.

As far as promoters taking prime spots with a box full of boots, get on with it. It's their promotion they can do what they like, we at dkof take a back seat and believe a good night out is far more enjoybale than using the evening to say "look at what I got last week" In fact since dkof's conception I have only dj'd twice at the venue and won't be playing again until Decemeber, I even paid a fiver to get into my OWN soul night so as to try and balance the books to cover Thorley and Hennigans agreed fees.

We just love our music, nowt else.

PD

[Simsy]

Can we have a name of the said event and promoter please..

Hypothetical? Hypocrytical, more like!

Stop fannying about!

On the thread you started in lookbacks you stated that the promoter of the Dedicated sc, i.e. Dave Reed plays bootlegs. So, can you stand by that statement... or not???!!!

Not apparently. He wasn't there for one thing. Molly was and he went through Dave's play box. Perhaps he can tell us if it was full of boots?

I remember a well known promoter ending a niter not so long back with 'I go to pieces' on Casino Classics .. But I didn't think to start a McCarthy style witch hunt because of it. I know the promoter in question has over fifty thousand soul records and if he chooses to play that as the last track, then fair enough. I would think that was the only pressing played that night and as for Dave, well he has between four and five thousand soul records as far as I know including an enviable British collection. So why he'd want to slip a boot in, I really don't know. Think some promoters have the smarts to promote, but DJ'ing is an entirely (excuse the pun) different kettle of fish ...

[Mark Bicknell]

Mick, Ray and myself run a small venue in Peterborough that has one simple rule, play what the hell you want but please refrain from playing bootlegs.

As far as promoters taking prime spots with a box full of boots, get on with it. It's their promotion they can do what they like, we at dkof take a back seat and believe a good night out is far more enjoybale than using the evening to say "look at what I got last week" In fact since dkof's conception I have only dj'd twice at the venue and won't be playing again until Decemeber, I even paid a fiver to get into my OWN soul night so as to try and balance the books to cover Thorley and Hennigans agreed fees.

We just love our music, nowt else.

PD

Sums it up really Paul, small venue applied correctly.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Simon M]

I heard there was some sort of get out clause for playing carvers cut from originals any details on that ?

Edited August 29, 2007 by Simon M

[Simsy]

I heard there was some sort of get out clause for playing carvers from originals any details on that ?

Yep the law states you must own the original/acetate and play the carver purely to preserve the original.

[Winnie :-)]

Not apparently. He wasn't there for one thing. Molly was and he went through Dave's play box. Perhaps he can tell us if it was full of boots?

I remember a well known promoter ending a niter not so long back with 'I go to pieces' on Casino Classics .. But I didn't think to start a McCarthy style witch hunt because of it. I know the promoter in question has over fifty thousand soul records and if he chooses to play that as the last track, then fair enough. I would think that was the only pressing played that night and as for Dave, well he has between four and five thousand soul records as far as I know including an enviable British collection. So why he'd want to slip a boot in, I really don't know. Think some promoters have the smarts to promote, but DJ'ing is an entirely (excuse the pun) different kettle of fish ...

============

He wasn't here either?? So that's comments on Silks and this dayer without attending. Timothy must have a touch of the 'divine', running through him to know so much about both events It's really not right that either of these events can be rubbished or associated with allegations that the origiinal poster can't confirm as he was at neither. It appears to be a case of mischief making and an attempt to turn the broadsheet that is Soul Source into a tabloid?

Winnie:-)

[Simon M]

Yep the law states you must own the original/acetate and play the carver purely to preserve the original.

I heard this !! ..If the original was a big record for you ( new play , or reactivation) and then you sold it on for $$$ , it was ok to cut a carver and still play it ?

[Tomangoes]

On this debate I would say it comes down to two items, respect and power.

The promoter can do anything they want to as any financial loss would hit them. so who could stop them. Most promoters that fail do so because they do not listen to the customers and treat them with contempt, just because they can.

On the other hand to gain respect the promoter could not do as is suggested as they would be rejected and never be taken seriously as a DJ, especially by other DJs who are respected.

It depends on where you want to be in the strange world of Northern Soul. as suggested many times on this forum there are two scenes running side by side, if you want to be in the inner sanctum, you have to play by the rules. If you are happy with 'anything goes' do what you like but dont expect to be taken seriously.

Ed