Where Does The Crossover Begin ?

[Guest Bogue]

Just listening to the 'Festivals' in the Crossover Thursday thread & it got me thinking.

Where does Crossover begin ? What defines it ?

I bought the Festivals track as a 'Northern' record all be it a slower one, same with the 'Ethics' & some others that have come up in there.

So what defines a record being Crossover not Northern ?

Serious question

[Missgoldie]

I've always thought that crossover was when its not on the 4/4 and has instead, a back beat, although I am probably wrong.

And could someone tell me what the hell is "tent" music

[Guest]

I've always thought that crossover was when its not on the 4/4 and has instead, a back beat, although I am probably wrong.

And could someone tell me what the hell is "tent" music

Tent music is what you listen to when you are on holiday crossover is the bit in between the 60s and 70s where they can't decide how much it costs or how rare it is

[Guest Bogue]

Tent music is what you listen to when you are on holiday crossover is the bit in between the 60s and 70s where they can't decide how much it costs or how rare it is

Probably right there Mossy.

Never heard the term 'Tent' music before, where did that one come from Miss Goldie ?

[Guest Neil-ok]

Just listening to the 'Festivals' in the Crossover Thursday thread & it got me thinking.

Where does Crossover begin ? What defines it ?

I bought the Festivals track as a 'Northern' record all be it a slower one, same with the 'Ethics' & some others that have come up in there.

So what defines a record being Crossover not Northern ?

Serious question

Must admit i thought the same when i looked at that thread,To me its somewhere inbetween northern and modern but whats northern and whats modern? .

[Guest Bogue]

Must admit i thought the same when i looked at that thread,To me its somewhere inbetween northern and modern but whats northern and whats modern? .

It's a hard one isn't it. Be interesting to know where it started too.

[Guest]

Must admit i thought the same when i looked at that thread,To me its somewhere inbetween northern and modern but whats northern and whats modern? .

I'd say crossover tunes are not as stompy and Northern and not as bouncy as 70s....they are generally just perfect

and I class modern as 80's onwards

[Winnie :-)]

I've always thought that crossover was when its not on the 4/4 and has instead, a back beat, although I am probably wrong.

And could someone tell me what the hell is "tent" music

==============

Where the DJ's get a free hand? Not sure where the term started.

[Winnie :-)]

Should have asked in the previous post, but stuff like Ladies Choice, Feel the need in me, What took you so long, does that classify as Xover or northern, remember it being played at Wigan (sorry for mentioning the "W" word) around 75/76.

Yes Baz, I know you think they're all sh*t

Winnie:-)

[Stillsoulin]

tent music, the name derives from the blackpool weekenders where the 70,s / crossover music was played in the Marquee, hence tent, bloody cold in there it was too on occasions, i understood crossover to mean music made around the late sixties to early seventies where the production values were not out and out smooth productions like the philly sound nor were they the mock motown sound that was preavelant in the sixties, Nolan Chance i,ll never forget you on Thomas is a good example. but different people have there own views, at the end of the day there are only good or bad records, we get hung up on catorgorising too much.

rob h.

[Pete S]

Think about that B side that you played once, got 30 seconds of the way in and thought it was useless. That's crossover.

[Guest Adam G]

Get Voices from the shadows issue 16.

There is a great article from 1991 when the term was used to describe basicaly the records which Crossed over from the "Northern" rooms to the "Modern"rooms and vice versa.

Its all very personal though and some things that get played as crossover for me are just midtempo "Northern".

[Jordirip]

tent music, the name derives from the blackpool weekenders where the 70,s / crossover music was played in the Marquee, hence tent, bloody cold in there it was too on occasions, i understood crossover to mean music made around the late sixties to early seventies where the production values were not out and out smooth productions like the philly sound nor were they the mock motown sound that was preavelant in the sixties, Nolan Chance i,ll never forget you on Thomas is a good example. but different people have there own views, at the end of the day there are only good or bad records, we get hung up on catorgorising too much.

rob h.

Good description Rob. I think of Crossover as a bit like slowed down Northern, but with music slowing down on the Northern scene anyway sometimes what gets played on the Northern scene is crossover and has been played on the Crossover scene (wherever that is!) for years. I personally think that the mid tempo Northern and Crossover make perfect companions. Crossover incorporates funky elements in the music also with rhythms and grooves being more complex than your Northern 4 x 4. Basically Crossover is whatever gets played at a Crossover do, from slow/mid tempo to fast uptempo, just the same as Northern is whatever gets played at a Northern do. There is no other answer when you have James Fountain's Seven day lover played next to Sliced Tomatoes and Bobby Goldsboro at a Northern do. (Well you used to.)

Jordi

[Girthdevon]

Just listening to the 'Festivals' in the Crossover Thursday thread & it got me thinking.

Where does Crossover begin ? What defines it ?

I bought the Festivals track as a 'Northern' record all be it a slower one, same with the 'Ethics' & some others that have come up in there.

So what defines a record being Crossover not Northern ?

Serious question

I stuck up the Festivals tune.....I only heard & bought this recently. Not one I would regard as northern - simply cos I thought it too slow....suppose it must be crossover AND northern. Certainly the crossover fans I've played it to, didn't know it, and are now after a copy. A new lease of life for the tune.....

Cheers Girth

[Guest Matt Male]

Where does Crossover begin ? What defines it ?

So what defines a record being Crossover not Northern ?

Serious question

Isn't crossover the more commercial sounds from the 70s and 80s? Stuff which charted and was taken up by the northern scene (think 'youngs hearts run free' at Wigan)?

Crossover because it 'crossed over' from the mainstream.

That was what i always thought anyway.

Listen to the crossover thread and pretty much everything has a fairly commercial sound appealing to non-soulies as well as us lot.

[Simon M]

This was a popular old thread on the subject..

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...ic=25241&hl=

[Guest Bogue]

I stuck up the Festivals tune.....I only heard & bought this recently. Not one I would regard as northern - simply cos I thought it too slow....suppose it must be crossover AND northern. Certainly the crossover fans I've played it to, didn't know it, and are now after a copy. A new lease of life for the tune.....

Cheers Girth

Never meant it as a dig at the tune Girth I like it myself, it just got me thinking thats all.

In hindsight, it was probably the other side that was initialy played, that was more 'Northern' all be it a bit pop'y.

My thinking was always along the lines of Matt Male, but it does appear to be attracting tunes a bit like (though not so bluntly ) as Pete put it these days.

Nice reply Rob, is the 'Tent' where you had your head turned to all that Modern drival then ?

[Wilxy]

Sounds like crossover is open to interpretation, as most things are

[Supercorsa]

Think about that B side that you played once, got 30 seconds of the way in and thought it was useless. That's crossover.

[Epic]

Crossover to me is music that appeals to both sixties fans & people of a more modern persuasion. - It CROSSES OVER from one era to another.

I would say that Northern is more instant in its appeal because it generally hits you between the eyes from the first beat.

Crossover is like fine wine - maybe not pallatable on the first glass - but the further you get down the bottle the better it tastes. IMHO

[Epic]

Think about that B side that you played once, got 30 seconds of the way in and thought it was useless. That's crossover.

Then when it becomes popular sell it for a huge wad of cash.

[ockers]

Then when it becomes popular sell it for a huge wad of cash.

like the ones in your wardrobe with all those wine bottles

[stomper45]

thanks Rachel, had always wondered what "tent music" was, do they smell of wee too

==============

Where the DJ's get a free hand? Not sure where the term started.

am confused wasn't this the definitive answer bout tepee sounds then,

wigwam casino?

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...st&p=369294

[Guest bleusuperb]

Crossover is any inferior record which has been played out to meet the needs of the aging soulie who now finds it physically impossible to dance to the sounds they really enjoy?

Thus it began when you reached your mid forties.

Edited November 10, 2006 by bleusuperb

[Sweeney]

Crossover is any inferior record which has been played out to meet the needs of the aging soulie who now finds it physically impossible to dance to the sounds they really enjoy?

Thus it began when you reached you mid forties.

Of course, you'd NEVER get inferior records played on the Northern Scene.

You could argue that Crossover is an antidote to the mindless stompers, overpriced crocks, tedious instrumentals and white pop drivel that taints the Northern Soul scene.

Each to his own...

[Epic]

Crossover is any inferior record which has been played out to meet the needs of the aging soulie who now finds it physically impossible to dance to the sounds they really enjoy?

Thus it began when you reached your mid forties.

But have the mental capability to appreciate it.

[Guest Lady Maverick]

This is all interesting, especially since sometimes I get it confused!

[Sanquine]

Topic on this from last week - feel free to add to the discussion here

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=37020

Missed this last week as not had much time to look on ss recently Read through post's still not clear - would be interesting to see what tunes get posted under Crossover today.

Karen

[Guest rachel]

Missed this last week as not had much time to look on ss recently Read through post's still not clear - would be interesting to see what tunes get posted under Crossover today.

Karen

I don't think there really is a definitive answer - IMO this is the best description so far:

Good description Rob. I think of Crossover as a bit like slowed down Northern, but with music slowing down on the Northern scene anyway sometimes what gets played on the Northern scene is crossover and has been played on the Crossover scene (wherever that is!) for years. I personally think that the mid tempo Northern and Crossover make perfect companions. Crossover incorporates funky elements in the music also with rhythms and grooves being more complex than your Northern 4 x 4. Basically Crossover is whatever gets played at a Crossover do, from slow/mid tempo to fast uptempo, just the same as Northern is whatever gets played at a Northern do. There is no other answer when you have James Fountain's Seven day lover played next to Sliced Tomatoes and Bobby Goldsboro at a Northern do. (Well you used to.)

Jordi

Here's last Thursday's tunes for some more listening https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=36971 ... it's just.. .a feeling

[Girthdevon]

Never meant it as a dig at the tune Girth I like it myself, it just got me thinking thats all.

In hindsight, it was probably the other side that was initialy played, that was more 'Northern' all be it a bit pop'y.

Not taken as a dig either - a great question and just highlighting how two different factions can interprete the same record.......

Cheers Girth

[Guest Bogue]

Not taken as a dig either - a great question and just highlighting how two different factions can interprete the same record.......

Cheers Girth

That's good to hear Girth, just didn't want you to think i was having a go at your posting.

Don't think we will get a definitive answer, i always took it to be stuff that had 'crossed over' into the mainstream charts,originaly things like 'Heaven must be missing an angel', 'It's better to have' & 'On broadway. But it seems very mixed now & in most part another excuse for the modernists (imho of course)

[Jordirip]

Don't think we will get a definitive answer, i always took it to be stuff that had 'crossed over' into the mainstream charts,originaly things like 'Heaven must be missing an angel', 'It's better to have' & 'On broadway. But it seems very mixed now & in most part another excuse for the modernists (imho of course)

I think the mix up here is that the Americans refer to soul music that gets played in the mainstream pop arena as crossover music. That is not what is meant by crossover soul in the UK.

Jordi

[Guest Lady Maverick]

I think the mix up here is that the Americans refer to soul music that gets played in the mainstream pop arena as crossover music. That is not what is meant by crossover soul in the UK.

Jordi

It does mean that differently here, but it's always good to learn more from each other! The difference is we don't refer to it as "crossover" but "commercial" or "mainstream" because it "crossed over" to the pop charts.

[Sean Hampsey]

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, we have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

Edited November 16, 2006 by Sean Hampsey

[Guest Lady Maverick]

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, we have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

Sean...it's starting to make sense to me.

[Sean Hampsey]

Sean...it's starting to make sense to me.

Goooooooooood!

Now... all we gotta do... is put everybody else straight!

Sean

[Guest Black Gold of the Sun]

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, we have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

The parameters of what constitutes each genre are becoming more blurred all the time.I was at the Blackpool niter last week and someone (maybe Sam played The Ultimates in the main hall and the floor was packed.it Sounded IMMENSE !

[Sean Hampsey]

The parameters of what constitutes each genre are becoming more blurred all the time.I was at the Blackpool niter last week and someone (maybe Sam played The Ultimates in the main hall and the floor was packed.it Sounded IMMENSE !

And as in my penultimate paragraph... my point exactly.

Good to hear that the Northern Scene's 'Main Hall' crowd are, again, beginning to try and catch up!

Sean

[Chalky]

there's also a difference between crossover and a 70's dancer. many dealers use crossover as a marketing tool to describe a record as crossover as collecting of this genre of the soul scene is "in". Many records described as crossover are not crossover. Have seen 80's records described as crossover at times

[Epic]

Wher does a record like Ujima -"I'm Not Ready" sit in this debate.

Played as a new release at Blackpool Mecca

Played in Modern Rooms 10 years later

Now very acceptable in most Northern rooms

Think we can say that this record truly has "crossed-over"

[Chalky]

Wher does a record like Ujima -"I'm Not Ready" sit in this debate.

Played as a new release at Blackpool Mecca

Played in Modern Rooms 10 years later

Now very acceptable in most Northern rooms

Think we can say that this record truly has "crossed-over"

not quite sure will have to listen again but there's a difference (IMHO) between the crossover genre and records that have cross over from one scene to the other.

[Sean Hampsey]

Wher does a record like Ujima -"I'm Not Ready" sit in this debate.

Played as a new release at Blackpool Mecca

Played in Modern Rooms 10 years later

Now very acceptable in most Northern rooms

Think we can say that this record truly has "crossed-over"

Good Question Mark, but surely Ujima, having been played (albeit briefly) at Blackpool Mecca and then being revived (by yours truly) in the Main Room at Cleethorpes in 82 makes it simply an 'Oldie'.

The same can be said of some of the others I played at the time - Bill Harris "Am I Cold Am I Hot" Brothers Guiding Light "Getting Together" Invitations "Look On The Good Side" etc. They all became big in the Main Room at, what was then, the biggest Northern Nighter in the country and went on to be big elsewhere... but they aint what I would call "Crossover Soul" records....even though they've 'crossed over' yet again, such choons are just oldies... surely?

The term 'Cross Over' has been used in all music genres (particularly in the USA) for decades, but when, over here, we talk about "Crossover Soul" - as opposed to 'Northern' or 'Modern' - we are talking about that period late 60's into the early 70's... where (as per the examples I listed earlier) the tempo is more syncopated and less 'on the fours' ... or at least... that's what Rod intended the term to refer to.

Sure its a little confusing... but usually (as Blake H suggested to me) only to those who weren't there (Thorne) at the time.

As far as the UK Soul Scene is concerned Ujima is an Oldie... mainly because it was played on the Northern Soul scene before the 90's Canal Tavern. Had the record only just been discovered, I still doubt that it would be classed as "Crossover Soul" because the tempo/style does not fit into the genre any more than would The Natural Four "I Thought You Were Mine" ABC.... which is clearly a Northern Soul 'Classic' Oldie (Whereas the Boola Boola version is... Crossover!!).

Phew!

Now, am I making myself clear?

Sean

[Epic]

Good Question Mark, but surely Ujima, having been played (albeit briefly) at Blackpool Mecca and then being revived (by yours truly) in the Main Room at Cleethorpes in 82 makes it simply an 'Oldie'.

The same can be said of some of the others I played at the time - Bill Harris "Am I Cold Am I Hot" Brothers Guiding Light "Getting Together" Invitations "Look On The Good Side" etc. They all became big in the Main Room at, what was then, the biggest Northern Nighter in the country and went on to be big elsewhere... but they aint what I would call "Crossover Soul" records....even though they've 'crossed over' yet again, such choons are just oldies... surely?

The term 'Cross Over' has been used in all music genres (particularly in the USA) for decades, but when, over here, we talk about "Crossover Soul" - as opposed to 'Northern' or 'Modern' - we are talking about that period late 60's into the early 70's... where (as per the examples I listed earlier) the tempo is more syncopated and less 'on the fours' ... or at least... that's what Rod intended the term to refer to.

Sure its a little confusing... but usually (as Blake H suggested to me) only to those who weren't there (Thorne) at the time.

As far as the UK Soul Scene is concerned Ujima is an Oldie... mainly because it was played on the Northern Soul scene before the 90's Canal Tavern. Had the record only just been discovered, I still doubt that it would be classed as "Crossover Soul" because the tempo/style does not fit into the genre any more than would The Natural Four "I Thought You Were Mine" ABC.... which is clearly a Northern Soul 'Classic' Oldie (Whereas the Boola Boola version is... Crossover!!).

Phew!

Now, am I making myself clear?

Sean

Now just to add to the confusion - records like Bill Harris- Brothers Guiding Light etc. were all available & were bought as new releases. It was around the time of the disco boom & "proper" soul records were in the main ignored.

Remember - Todays new release may be tomorrows oldie,classic,crossover,tent, big-room,nighter anthem.

[Sean Hampsey]

Now just to add to the confusion - records like Bill Harris- Brothers Guiding Light etc. were all available & were bought as new releases. It was around the time of the disco boom & "proper" soul records were in the main ignored.

Remember - Todays new release may be tomorrows oldie,classic,crossover,tent, big-room,nighter anthem.

Agree entirely. I bought and played all of the above as new releases. They were just good Soulful Dance records to me... at the time of release, but felt they needed more of an airing at the 'Big Nighters' of the day (Clifton Hall - Cleethorpes - Bradford etc.) some 6-8 years after release. Thankfully they went on to be as big (or bigger) than many of the 'new' discoveries which were played alongside them.

Fact is, none of the above were well known in the mainstream until that time. And you're so right that certain records played on the Modern / Tent (type) scene will eventually find acceptance in the Northern 'Main Hall'.

It's always perturbed me though that so many just don't get it (or don't want to get it) until years later.

Just part of the mindset, I guess, but, thankfully, you can't stop the evolution of the masses.

Sean

[Guest]

Agree entirely. I bought and played all of the above as new releases. They were just good Soulful Dance records to me... at the time of release, but felt they needed more of an airing at the 'Big Nighters' of the day (Clifton Hall - Cleethorpes - Bradford etc.) some 6-8 years after release. Thankfully they went on to be as big (or bigger) than many of the 'new' discoveries which were played alongside them.

Fact is, none of the above were well known in the mainstream until that time. And you're so right that certain records played on the Modern / Tent (type) scene will eventually find acceptance in the Northern 'Main Hall'.

It's always perturbed me though that so many just don't get it (or don't want to get it) until years later.

Just part of the mindset, I guess, but, thankfully, you can't stop the evolution of the masses.

Sean

Hi Sean ......

Thanks for clarifying things . I thought " Crossover " started with the design of a certain type of brassiere .

Seriously , as always , a thoughtful and constructive reply .

LOL and may the road rise wit 'cha .

Malc Burton

Edited November 19, 2006 by Malc Burton