Modern Soul - Where Did The Term Come From?

[Guest]

A serious question - when and where did the term Modern Soul come about ?

I have always assumed that the term originated at the time Levine and Curtis started playing new releases and therefore the term 'modern soul' was used to distinguish it from the older, more traditional 'Northern' sounds.

If that is so, the term is only relevant when you use it to distinguish sounds that are played on the Northern scene but that don't have a traditional sixties dance sound .

If it is so,outside of the Northern scene the term can't really mean anything because 'modern' can refer to anything from the last thirty plus years.So therefore, for a 'modern' scene to exists and be called 'modern' it has to be tied to the 'Northern' scene.

Any thoughts?

Edited July 28, 2006 by ShaneH

[soulfulsaint]

A lingusitic minefield Simon but I wouldn't agree. The term modern cannot and should not be be owned by anyone, let alone a niche soul scene. Modern art preceded by Wigan by several decades, it also appearedf in architecture before any of us were born. You could also argue that the original mods (or modernists) preceded northern soul too. I agree that the term emerged on our scene to differentiate classic sixties northern from the '70s floaters and uptempo sound played at Mecca, some of which were early NYC disco. But I don't think that gives us ownership over a term.

Crossover is a similar minefield. It was used in the msuic industry to refer to records that 'crossed-over' from the black/race charts to the pop charts. Now we use to refer to '70s mid-tempo. But other meanings preceded the UK rare soul scene.

As for sixties-newies - I think we can claim that one.

[Sean Hampsey]

I have always assumed that the term originated at the time Levine and Curtis started playing new releases and therefore the term 'modern soul' was used to distinguish it from the older, more traditional 'Northern' sounds.

A serious question deserves a serious answer.

I personally dont associate the term 'modern soul' with the Levine / Curtis transition to 'newer' material at all.

Infact, I don't even recall hearing the expression until the very late 70's / early 80's... I'd refute the notion that it was used, to describe the genre, during the mid 70's (at the time of the Mecca - Scene split).

I think you could date the term (as used on the Northern scene) to no earlier than 1979 (or even 1980) and it would have referred to the sounds being played at such places as Snaith by Soul Sam, Arthur Fenn, Mario, and then by the Clifton Hall jocks in 1981 and thereafter.

These early 'modern soul' tracks would have included

ZZ & Co "Getting Ready For The Get Down"

O T Sykes "Stone Crush"

King Tutt "You Got Me Hung Up"

High Frquency "Summertime"

Rideout "Someone Special"

I well recall the UK's first 'Modern Soul' Allnighter being held in Rotherham Tiffanys in 80/81... not before that... and how the South Yorkshire region was the real Birthplace (or at least the initial hotbed) for the Modern Soul 'scene' with Clifton Hall, Turnups, Sheffield Tiffanys etc.

The term hardly existed outside of the region until 82 onwards, when 'After Dark' promotions (Steve Croft and the modern jocks from Clifton Hall ) moved to Cleethorpes Winter Gardens and Bradford Queens Hall. Rock City and Loughborough soon followed.

The Mecca may have played a lot of 'Modern Soul' (in comparison to the 60's stuff played elsewhere) but I honestly dont recall the phrase being used at that time.

Sean Hampsey

Quick plug: Relive those early Modern Sounds at the Clifton Hall Reunion... tomorrow... in Rotherham!

Only 24 hours to go.

Getting excited now!

[vaultofsouler]

A serious question deserves a serious answer.

I personally dont associate the term 'modern soul' with the Levine / Curtis transition to 'newer' material at all.

Infact, I don't even recall hearing the expression until the very late 70's / early 80's... I'd refute the notion that it was used, to describe the genre, during the mid 70's (at the time of the Mecca - Scene split).

I think you could date the term (as used on the Northern scene) to no earlier than 1979 (or even 1980) and it would have referred to the sounds being played at such places as Snaith by Soul Sam, Arthur Fenn, Mario, and then by the Clifton Hall jocks in 1981 and thereafter.

These early 'modern soul' tracks would have included

ZZ & Co "Getting Ready For The Get Down"

O T Sykes "Stone Crush"

King Tutt "You Got Me Hung Up"

High Frquency "Summertime"

Rideout "Someone Special"

I well recall the UK's first 'Modern Soul' Allnighter being held in Rotherham Tiffanys in 80/81... not before that... and how the South Yorkshire region was the real Birthplace (or at least the initial hotbed) for the Modern Soul 'scene' with Clifton Hall, Turnups, Sheffield Tiffanys etc.

The term hardly existed outside of the region until 82 onwards, when 'After Dark' promotions (Steve Croft and the modern jocks from Clifton Hall ) moved to Cleethorpes Winter Gardens and Bradford Queens Hall. Rock City and Loughborough soon followed.

The Mecca may have played a lot of 'Modern Soul' (in comparison to the 60's stuff played elsewhere) but I honestly dont recall the phrase being used at that time.

Sean Hampsey

Quick plug: Relive those early Modern Sounds at the Clifton Hall Reunion... tomorrow... in Rotherham!

Only 24 hours to go.

Getting excited now!

Couldn't have put it better Sean.... I first "heard" the term, and even used on flyers, from the Queens Hall nighters to "plug" the downstairs room....

Can't say I heard it used at Clifton Hall although, as you say, a lot of the early "modern" stuff got an airing there....

I personally associate the modern sound as from early 80's onwards (a la CH & QH).... but it seems these days, IMO, that the term "modern" has been backtracked to include some 70's sounds.... hence "modern" events stating "sounds from the 70's to present day" on the flyers.... bemusing or amusing, I don't know.... don't you just love all the pigeon hole genres ....

[Billywhizz]

A serious question deserves a serious answer.

I personally dont associate the term 'modern soul' with the Levine / Curtis transition to 'newer' material at all.

Infact, I don't even recall hearing the expression until the very late 70's / early 80's... I'd refute the notion that it was used, to describe the genre, during the mid 70's (at the time of the Mecca - Scene split).

I think you could date the term (as used on the Northern scene) to no earlier than 1979 (or even 1980) and it would have referred to the sounds being played at such places as Snaith by Soul Sam, Arthur Fenn, Mario, and then by the Clifton Hall jocks in 1981 and thereafter.

These early 'modern soul' tracks would have included

ZZ & Co "Getting Ready For The Get Down"

O T Sykes "Stone Crush"

King Tutt "You Got Me Hung Up"

High Frquency "Summertime"

Rideout "Someone Special"

I well recall the UK's first 'Modern Soul' Allnighter being held in Rotherham Tiffanys in 80/81... not before that... and how the South Yorkshire region was the real Birthplace (or at least the initial hotbed) for the Modern Soul 'scene' with Clifton Hall, Turnups, Sheffield Tiffanys etc.

The term hardly existed outside of the region until 82 onwards, when 'After Dark' promotions (Steve Croft and the modern jocks from Clifton Hall ) moved to Cleethorpes Winter Gardens and Bradford Queens Hall. Rock City and Loughborough soon followed.

The Mecca may have played a lot of 'Modern Soul' (in comparison to the 60's stuff played elsewhere) but I honestly dont recall the phrase being used at that time.

Sean Hampsey

Quick plug: Relive those early Modern Sounds at the Clifton Hall Reunion... tomorrow... in Rotherham!

Only 24 hours to go.

Getting excited now!

modern soul was first mentioned number 143 september 10th 1974 by RS and Russ.W in blues and souls mag billy

[Dave Thorley]

Hi Sean

Good plug for Rotherham!!!

But I sure it arouse out of the 60's versus Sam, Arthur and others move away from classic northern soul. In fact it may have been Sam himself, in one of his heated letters of the time,that coined the term.

As for the term it's self, why do people still insist on calling records that are as much as 30 years old Modern soul. It's just a later version of dance soul records that were mainly play in the UK on the northern soul scene. So should really be called, in retrospect, northern soul as well. Stuff that is being played today in truly advanced 'Modern rooms', should not fall into the same term or trap. It is what it is, contemporary soul, until it's a few years old and then it, just another oldie, northern or other wise.

In fact if records get there main exsposure on the northern soul scene, then they are northern soul tunes, doesn't mater when they are released. Don't be ashamed of the term, be proud of it. In the US, the artist we all love hold the term in high esteam. That I knoe through talking to them.

anyway just my opion

Dave

[Guest]

Lets not forget Bradford Beer Keller(Bensons),modern played down stairs,the rest upstairs

[Dave Thorley]

Hi Sean

Good plug for Rotherham!!!

But I sure it arouse out of the 60's versus Sam, Arthur and others move away from classic northern soul. In fact it may have been Sam himself, in one of his heated letters of the time,that coined the term.

As for the term it's self, why do people still insist on calling records that are as much as 30 years old Modern soul. It's just a later version of dance soul records that were mainly play in the UK on the northern soul scene. So should really be called, in retrospect, northern soul as well. Stuff that is being played today in truly advanced 'Modern rooms', should not fall into the same term or trap. It is what it is, contemporary soul, until it's a few years old and then it, just another oldie, northern or other wise.

In fact if records get there main exsposure on the northern soul scene, then they are northern soul tunes, doesn't mater when they are released. Don't be ashamed of the term, be proud of it. In the US, the artist we all love hold the term in high esteam. That I knoe through talking to them.

anyway just my opion

Dave

And for those wondering, Dyslexic and my spell checks not working.

[steve z]

A serious question - when and where did the term Modern Soul come about ?

I have always assumed that the term originated at the time Levine and Curtis started playing new releases and therefore the term 'modern soul' was used to distinguish it from the older, more traditional 'Northern' sounds.

If that is so, the term is only relevant when you use it to distinguish sounds that are played on the Northern scene but that don't have a traditional sixties dance sound .

If it is so,outside of the Northern scene the term can't really mean anything because 'modern' can refer to anything from the last thirty plus years.So therefore, for a 'modern' scene to exists and be called 'modern' it has to be tied to the 'Northern' scene.

Any thoughts?

Hi Simon,a term used on "our" interesting beliefs about "our" era with regard to liking soul tunes.

MODERN

Millions of people in Great Britain will not have a clue about terms used for our preference and labelling of the records we may or as the case may be not like.

RnB with focus on "todays" categorisation bears no resemblence to our understanding of RnB.........IMO

Regarding quality expressions of our choice of music ...if its soulful and my cuppa.....I'm not bothered about a category....but I do prefer 60's

ATB Steve...

[vaultofsouler]

Lets not forget Bradford Beer Keller(Bensons),modern played down stairs,the rest upstairs

Remember it Kenny.... Crofty moved there for a while from QH.... can't recall why now though....

Re rooms.... seem to remember you entered downstairs (? round back) into Bier Keller first, which was "northern room" and then didn't Bensons "modern room" open up after 2.00am upstairs when the "nightclubbers" left for their kebabs/curries.... also seem to remember a third room .... further upstairs, I think.... vaguely remember when leaving you went out via main door to Bensons and not via Bier Keller entrance, which caused confusion on your first visit as to the way to the train station ....

Or is my memory and recollection of the place that bad ....

Edited July 28, 2006 by vaultofsouler

[Pete S]

As for the term it's self, why do people still insist on calling records that are as much as 30 years old Modern soul.

To differentiate it from the proper stuff

[Guest realsoulfan]

A serious question - when and where did the term Modern Soul come about ?

I have always assumed that the term originated at the time Levine and Curtis started playing new releases and therefore the term 'modern soul' was used to distinguish it from the older, more traditional 'Northern' sounds.

If that is so, the term is only relevant when you use it to distinguish sounds that are played on the Northern scene but that don't have a traditional sixties dance sound .

If it is so,outside of the Northern scene the term can't really mean anything because 'modern' can refer to anything from the last thirty plus years.So therefore, for a 'modern' scene to exists and be called 'modern' it has to be tied to the 'Northern' scene.

Any thoughts?

I'm sure like others on this thread the term modern soul came about in the early 80's mainly used from people in the south yorkshire area as befor then they was using the term newies

[Guest]

I'm sure like others on this thread the term modern soul came about in the early 80's mainly used from people in the south yorkshire area as befor then they was using the term newies

Then stafford,we got 6ts newies

[Sean Hampsey]

Then stafford,we got 6ts newies

Stand by for 'Modern Oldies'

Sean

[Simon M]

Then stafford,we got 6ts newies

Quite a few 6Ts slowies too ..( At Stafford)

[vaultofsouler]

Stand by for 'Modern Oldies'

Sean

You mean you've not heard it used already Sean ....

[Sean Hampsey]

You mean you've not heard it used already Sean ....

Sadly....yes!

[vaultofsouler]

Sadly....yes!

Same here pal.... that's why I asked....

Wonder what the next one will be Modern Xover ???? ....

Too many people coming up with too many pigeon holes on the scene.... must be about 20 now ....

[Guest]

Interesting stuff.

I first became aware of the term via mags like Blackbeat (or maybe New Blackbeat ?) and tracks like Curtis, the Budwieser 12" singles ect. but I've been led to think that the term was coined earlier than that. Is there any printed evidence of the term being used before (circa) 1980 /1 ?

It ties in with whats been said in the replies...Modern Soul as it is today bears no real connection with the Northern scene but at the same time it's closely linked. But tracks like 'Pressure' and the currently popular Kirk Franklin track have a northern appeal without sounding like 60's tracks, whereas there are plenty on 'modern' (as in current) soul tracks which have no interest on the Northern scene.

[vaultofsouler]

Interesting stuff.

I first became aware of the term via mags like Blackbeat (or maybe New Blackbeat ?) and tracks like Curtis, the Budwieser 12" singles ect. but I've been led to think that the term was coined earlier than that. Is there any printed evidence of the term being used before (circa) 1980 /1 ?

It ties in with whats been said in the replies...Modern Soul as it is today bears no real connection with the Northern scene but at the same time it's closely linked. But tracks like 'Pressure' and the currently popular Kirk Franklin track have a northern appeal without sounding like 60's tracks, whereas there are plenty on 'modern' (as in current) soul tracks which have no interest on the Northern scene.

I'll try to explain how I saw the evolution of "modern" in more detail from how I experienced it....

The tunes stated above by Sean along with Daybreak, Timeless Legend, Skip Mahoney, Tyrone Davis, Charles Johnson, etc., etc., were heard alongside all the 60's and 70's stuff at Clifton Hall.... no genres existed there.... apart from on their flyers that described you could hear "oldies" and "newies".... a "one room, one music" venue and an instigator/originator, IMO, of the term we use nowadays, "across the board"....

It's only when the promoters moved onwards and upwards ending up at Queens Hall in Bradford that you then had two rooms functioning but aimed at two styles of music.... described as "Northern" (oldies) and "Modern" (newies) on the flyers.... this is where I first became aware of the term "modern" and often wondered, privately, if it was being used due to the emergence of other "newies", namely from the 60's, to avoid confusion between the new (70's and 80's) newies and old (60's) newies .... being in my early twenties I really didn't care or think too much about it....

It was also this time that the "modern" (used loosely) side of things even stretched over into the jazz funk scene and you had two roomed JF venues where northern was in the smaller room ..... going to these and being "pushed out back" meant you spent time in the "big room" and heard/got to know the tunes.... I seem to remember the Ritz alldayers in Manchester around this time have both JF and NS DJs on meaning two differing crowds in one room each waiting for the others music to finish to then get on the dance floor.... strange to watch indeed.... almost like an unadvertised "dance off"....

Anyway, it was then I noticed back at the northern/modern room venues like QH there was now a distinct move into the more "dance" orientated side of "new released soul" stuff often passed/crossed over from the jazz funk scene's more soulful tunes.... I remember getting a tape back then from a guy at QH and he'd entitled it "Post Modernist Era" which was of that ilke.... so even then the modern rooms were moving away as a seperate scene IMO.... although the term "modern" stuck in there despite the suggestions on the tape title a new genre was to be unveiled... so moving up to present day, isn't that musically pretty much what the "modern scene" is still doing now with the inclusion of soulful house/garage and R&B 2-step which you can hear elsewhere at times ????....

So I suppose it could be said that Queens Hall, and other places like it back then, were the start of the "split" within the scene accumalating into what we have today.... and all the arguements in and around the "two" scenes.... as since then venues have come and gone using this two rooms/two musical syles format, evolving into what we have today.... seperate "northern" and "modern" venues/nights.... except for, of course, the "bigger venues" like Preswich, the odd smaller one, some nighters and the weekenders....

As stated, relatively few records these days pass over from the "modern" events/rooms into the "northern" events/rooms due to them having "no real connection" with each other these days....

So what about the tracks Sean listed and I listed along with others of that time.... the start of the "modern" sound I would suggest.... most of them seem to be now deemed "too old" for the Modern rooms of today and still "too new" for the Northern rooms and so you never hear them out anywhere anymore.... seems these are the "Modern Oldies" that Sean mentioned.... or is that "Northern Newies" .... perhaps there's a need for an "Inbetweeny Soul" third room for these .... I'm getting confused now, more genres to add to the list ....

Having just re-read my post at this late hour I'm going stop working nights as it seems I get carried away with myself on the keyboard ....

Edited July 29, 2006 by vaultofsouler

[Dave Thorley]

How about looking at the art movement for inspiration. Post-northern, and Post-modern.

You should try being a record dealer, never know where to list some records nowdays.

It's all good soul music to me.

[soulfulsaint]

Stand by for 'Modern Oldies'

Sean

That's my point Sean. Outside the 'bubble' of the scene the way that we use the terms modern and crossover is ridiculous. Try to explain them to an intelligent music fan, who is not a soul obsessive - its quite tricky. As for Modern Oldies - Lew Kirton and Jan Jones surely fall into that category. They emerged on the scene when the term modern was at its height, and they are instantly recognisable to oldies fans.

Edited July 29, 2006 by soulfulsaint

[Guest]

So how would tracks like 'The Bottle' 'Nine Times' 'Love Factory' 'It Really Hurts Me Girl' 'Cashing In' ect have been descibed back in the day? Is it fair to say that the term 'modern soul' is only relevant in latter day 'northern soul' terms?

p.s i have no idea what that avatar means but it somehow just looks right.

[Simon M]

It seems the word modern has always been a poor differentiation .As for the NS origin I first heard the term from John Anderson , early 80's. also he and Saint coined the term Indie soul around 83 I think ? . Record dealers and media types thrive on descriptive terms . 60's newies I think that was Keb and Guy and maybe Saint too ?

Simon

Edited July 29, 2006 by Simon M

[sister dawn]

So how would tracks like 'The Bottle' 'Nine Times' 'Love Factory' 'It Really Hurts Me Girl' 'Cashing In' ect have been descibed back in the day? Is it fair to say that the term 'modern soul' is only relevant in latter day 'northern soul' terms?

p.s i have no idea what that avatar means but it somehow just looks right.

I think your right Simon the term Modern Soul has only really been used over the last past few years, Crossover too, I can remember Soul Sam playing "Crossover" back in the early 8ts Cleethorpes way, but I don't think it was ever described as that, it was described as "the stuff Soul Sam plays"

It seems like the term modern soul has been adopted since the progression of chart R n B / Soul to give it some sort of identity within the northern scene to prevent confusion, (now i'm confused )

Edited July 29, 2006 by Sister Dawn

[Guest]

It seems the word modern has always been a poor differentiation .As for the NS origin I first heard the term from John Anderson , early 80's. also he and Saint coined the term Indie soul around 83 I think ? . Record dealers and media types thrive on descriptive terms . 60's newies I think that was Keb and Guy and maybe Saint too ?

Simon

Mod'ern - a. of present or recent times ; new fashioned . Mod'ernism : n. any movement which aims at expressing the mind or the emotions of the present day .

I can remember Sean Hampey ( though he will possibly not admit to it , being the modest devil he is ) using the term modern for the records he was playing such as Tyrone Davis , Donny Gerrard , Syl Johnson et al , back in the early 80's , when we did the Windmill in Rotherham .

Malc Burton

[vnicepce]

So how would tracks like 'The Bottle' 'Nine Times' 'Love Factory' 'It Really Hurts Me Girl' 'Cashing In' ect have been descibed back in the day?

......contemporary issue? this thread is very interesting, from an academic PoV, but one has to ask......D.R.M.???

[Billywhizz]

Interesting stuff.

I first became aware of the term via mags like Blackbeat (or maybe New Blackbeat ?) and tracks like Curtis, the Budwieser 12" singles ect. but I've been led to think that the term was coined earlier than that. Is there any printed evidence of the term being used before (circa) 1980 /1 ?

It ties in with whats been said in the replies...Modern Soul as it is today bears no real connection with the Northern scene but at the same time it's closely linked. But tracks like 'Pressure' and the currently popular Kirk Franklin track have a northern appeal without sounding like 60's tracks, whereas there are plenty on 'modern' (as in current) soul tracks which have no interest on the Northern scene.

Simon my old flower modern going back to the early 70s the casino was the only soul club. Then,now and ever will be that changes its music policy i.e modern as I said earlier it was used by Rs and Rw don't anyone listen to me.

Billy

[soulfulsaint]

So how would tracks like 'The Bottle' 'Nine Times' 'Love Factory' 'It Really Hurts Me Girl' 'Cashing In' ect have been descibed back in the day? Is it fair to say that the term 'modern soul' is only relevant in latter day 'northern soul' terms?

p.s i have no idea what that avatar means but it somehow just looks right.

...First heard 'The Bottle' at the Blue Rooms at Sale played by Levine. He called it 'poetic-soul' I think because Gil Scott Heron was then known more as a poet. Thankfully the term didn't catch on. 'Nine Times' and 'Love Factory' are 'modern oldies' to use Sean's term.

The avatar is the first space-man Yuri Gagarin. A personal one. My dad met him in Russia and then my old man was killed in a car crash - so he's always been my hero. He would be a 'Space Race Oldie' as opposed to the Apollo crews who were more 'Modern'.

You do raise a really interetsing distinction that 'Love Factory' and say Keanya Collin's 'Love Bandit' were in fact 'modern' although Wigan Classics. Head hurts now.

[Stateside]

A serious question - when and where did the term Modern Soul come about ?

I have always assumed that the term originated at the time Levine and Curtis started playing new releases and therefore the term 'modern soul' was used to distinguish it from the older, more traditional 'Northern' sounds.

If that is so, the term is only relevant when you use it to distinguish sounds that are played on the Northern scene but that don't have a traditional sixties dance sound .

If it is so,outside of the Northern scene the term can't really mean anything because 'modern' can refer to anything from the last thirty plus years.So therefore, for a 'modern' scene to exists and be called 'modern' it has to be tied to the 'Northern' scene.

Any thoughts?

I tend to agree with you Simon, when we were listening to stuff at wigan from the 60's mostly , anything that was new or recent was modern as far as I was concerned and crossover was when something went from soul charts to national charts. Now i couldn't tell you what is crossover or modern because it has become so cloudy.

Kev

[Guest]

..........when we were listening to stuff at wigan from the 60's mostly , anything that was new or recent was modern as far as I was concerned and crossover was when something went from soul charts to national charts.

This is kind of what I'd always thought Kev. I'm going to try and get Richard, Ian and Colin's take on it too. There has to be documented evidence of the term being used somewhere like Blues & Soul or Black Music..or one of the fanzines?

[Robin S]

This is kind of what I'd always thought Kev. I'm going to try and get Richard, Ian and Colin's take on it too. There has to be documented evidence of the term being used somewhere like Blues & Soul or Black Music..or one of the fanzines?

As was mentioned above by someone ,the term in relation to "latter day" Modern Soul (i.e. not Mecca) definately came from Sam and Arthur at the start of the 80's. Snaith, Brum Locarno,Shef Tiffs,Oak Hotel Shrewsbury etc. Small roomed affairs playing predominately new releases albums, 7's both indie and major label, rare and not rare. Sam definately talked about this new "Modern Soul Scene" frequently in Steve G's "Blackbeat" and Glyn's "Okeh NS". I've got them all in the loft for that rainy day that never comes. They were inspirational times, not well attended but a seemingly never ending supply of quality music.Those that were there will agree.There was a great feeling of unity and the belief that this was the start of something special....good to see that 25 years + on we were right!!!

[Guest]

I have some of those Blackbeats - lots of new independent releases listed, some of the names of which turn up now.

So 'Modern Soul' in todays terms really stems from the early 80's and was possibly coined by Soul Sam !

As was mentioned above by someone ,the term in relation to "latter day" Modern Soul (i.e. not Mecca) definately came from Sam and Arthur at the start of the 80's. Snaith, Brum Locarno,Shef Tiffs,Oak Hotel Shrewsbury etc. Small roomed affairs playing predominately new releases albums, 7's both indie and major label, rare and not rare. Sam definately talked about this new "Modern Soul Scene" frequently in Steve G's "Blackbeat" and Glyn's "Okeh NS". I've got them all in the loft for that rainy day that never comes. They were inspirational times, not well attended but a seemingly never ending supply of quality music.Those that were there will agree.There was a great feeling of unity and the belief that this was the start of something special....good to see that 25 years + on we were right!!!

[Russ Vickers]

A serious question deserves a serious answer.

I personally dont associate the term 'modern soul' with the Levine / Curtis transition to 'newer' material at all.

Infact, I don't even recall hearing the expression until the very late 70's / early 80's... I'd refute the notion that it was used, to describe the genre, during the mid 70's (at the time of the Mecca - Scene split).

I think you could date the term (as used on the Northern scene) to no earlier than 1979 (or even 1980) and it would have referred to the sounds being played at such places as Snaith by Soul Sam, Arthur Fenn, Mario, and then by the Clifton Hall jocks in 1981 and thereafter.

These early 'modern soul' tracks would have included

ZZ & Co "Getting Ready For The Get Down"

O T Sykes "Stone Crush"

King Tutt "You Got Me Hung Up"

High Frquency "Summertime"

Rideout "Someone Special"

I well recall the UK's first 'Modern Soul' Allnighter being held in Rotherham Tiffanys in 80/81... not before that... and how the South Yorkshire region was the real Birthplace (or at least the initial hotbed) for the Modern Soul 'scene' with Clifton Hall, Turnups, Sheffield Tiffanys etc.

The term hardly existed outside of the region until 82 onwards, when 'After Dark' promotions (Steve Croft and the modern jocks from Clifton Hall ) moved to Cleethorpes Winter Gardens and Bradford Queens Hall. Rock City and Loughborough soon followed.

The Mecca may have played a lot of 'Modern Soul' (in comparison to the 60's stuff played elsewhere) but I honestly dont recall the phrase being used at that time.

Sean Hampsey

Quick plug: Relive those early Modern Sounds at the Clifton Hall Reunion... tomorrow... in Rotherham!

Only 24 hours to go.

Getting excited now!

Exactly my take on the term too Sean, definitely not before 79-80, Rock City was my first real taste of Modern Soul, altho I had always enjoyed the music without the 'tag''.

Russ

[Russ Vickers]

In fact if records get there main exsposure on the northern soul scene, then they are northern soul tunes, doesn't mater when they are released. Don't be ashamed of the term, be proud of it. In the US, the artist we all love hold the term in high esteam. That I knoe through talking to them.

Absolutely spot on mate................a perfect description.

Russ

[Guest]

I'd agree with that statement too....but I'd have to extend it and say that if a record gets played on the Northern dancefloors, it becomes a 'Northern ' record purely because the Northern scene has such a strong identity compared to the relatively small and very diverse (thirty years of music) 'Modern' scene.

[Dave Thorley]

I'd agree with that statement too....but I'd have to extend it and say that if a record gets played on the Northern dancefloors, it becomes a 'Northern ' record purely because the Northern scene has such a strong identity compared to the relatively small and very diverse (thirty years of music) 'Modern' scene.

Hi Simon

I think the problem is still that we are trying to put labels in the UK, on something that that has it's origins elsewhere. Northern soul or modern soul can be very 'all encompassing' at times it has included rock records- Babe Ruth, High Voltage, Funk-The Crow, Disco-etc, etc. The artist that made these records didn't set out to record a northern/modern tune. But in many cases are pleased in retrospect that they were picked up by our scene.

Even, here we can't agree on what is what. One record can get categorized differently by three different people. I've heard people call the Independants-I love you, yes I do; a modern tune, a northern tune and a crossover tune. See what I mean about being a record dealer, can be a bit tricky.

But as David Beckham said 'At the end of the day, that why I love this funny game', I may have made that up

Dave

[Guest]

The 'labels' thing is interesting.

The marketing men have given dance music hundreds of ridiculous labels in the last 15 years to suit the agenda. And I wonder if the term 'northern' soul wasn't the first of those labels (although not named for big time commercial reasons, I know) given that, as you say Dave, no one in the Sixties set out to make a 'northern soul' record - although I still think the guys behind 'Key To My Happiness' had a time machine !

So terms like Funk, Ska (ect) Reggae Southern and Deep Soul all described an easily defined style, whereas 'Northern' soul can be many things.

So 'Northern Soul' is as much to do with a scene, a movement, a dance style (lets face it, i fyou can't do 'the dance' to it it ain't Northern!) a mindset and spirit as it does the actual music.

Modern Soul (in terms of this discussion at least) doesn't seem to have the same 'togetherness' that Northern does.

If the term (and therefore the mindset of) 'Modern Soul' originated in the early 80's I wonder if the only parellels for Northern are the big 70's/80's weekender scene in the south (still alive at Southport?) and the 80's/90's rave scene as was?

[SteveM]

As Dave Thorley and Robin Salter have already stated, Sam and Arthur Fenn started the " Modern Soul" scene. They said there were no good sixties sounds to be found (a statement withdrawn later obviously) and programmed seventies and new releases which caught on with an initially small number of people. They broke from the Northern Scene and had their own venues, quite a few around South Yorkshire, and the Highwaymans Halt (?) at Snaith, with their own playlists and a lot of cover ups. The music was tremendous, and I was lucky enough to get many of the records from John Anderson and played them at Clifton Hall, as did others. Other djs, Dave Thorley sticks out at the time, also programmed these records at other venues. Remember, at this time, Sam and Arthur were virtual pariahs on the Northern scene and did not appear at the main venues, Stafford, Clifton Hall etc for a couple of years. So the "modern soul" records were played at

the above two allnighters with great success. Obviously Richard Searling played many top modern sounds before anybody jumps in.

Sean Hampsey in particular, while playing the above tunes, reactivated many forgotten Mecca plays at many venues, making " modern soul" (as then) more popular to the mainstream all nighters country wide. This was 81/82 I reckon. It was definitely modern soul then, and the term had nothing to do with the mid seventies playlists of Curtis and Levine, which as billywhizz said, were "newies"

[Simon M]

As was mentioned above by someone ,the term in relation to "latter day" Modern Soul (i.e. not Mecca) definately came from Sam and Arthur at the start of the 80's. Snaith, Brum Locarno,Shef Tiffs,Oak Hotel Shrewsbury etc. Small roomed affairs playing predominately new releases albums, 7's both indie and major label, rare and not rare. Sam definately talked about this new "Modern Soul Scene" frequently in Steve G's "Blackbeat" and Glyn's "Okeh NS". I've got them all in the loft for that rainy day that never comes. They were inspirational times, not well attended but a seemingly never ending supply of quality music.Those that were there will agree.There was a great feeling of unity and the belief that this was the start of something special....good to see that 25 years + on we were right!!!

Very true, Robin the Modern Soul scene was certainly born at the beginning of the 80's

(embryonic at the Mecca maybe ) The camaraderie was second to none!!

[Dave Thorley]

The stuff Colin and Ian played more often than not were called Mecca tunes in the mid 70's, or jazz funk and New York disco. In the case of New York disco, this wasn't becuase what they played were only records from New York, but in the style of the clubs there.

[Mike]

The stuff Colin and Ian played more often than not were called Mecca tunes in the mid 70's, or jazz funk and New York disco. In the case of New York disco, this wasn't becuase what they played were only records from New York, but in the style of the clubs there.

"new yorkers " was a term that got a fair bit of use for a short time round about the latter part of them days before jazz funk came into being

and when ever hear that always have to mention that never been bettered term in use about the same time.... "lolloping".

[Missgoldie]

Hello to all, I was unable to log in without my computer freezing for the last 12 months or more but now I'm on a shiny new one...

'Northern' soul can be many things.

So 'Northern Soul' is as much to do with a scene, a movement, a dance style (lets face it, i fyou can't do 'the dance' to it it ain't Northern!) a mindset and spirit as it does the actual music.

This is, I think the crux of the matter. NS was a movement, the term was then co-opted to define a musical style then records got played that didn't fit the clasification and so new ones were required, similarly records are often discribed in context to where they were played first.

Last week I had to discribe to a journalist putting an artical together for our new soul night (I'm in Sydney) what the musical terms were that we had on our flyer - NS, xover, modern

So how DO you explain to people who have no idea what the terms mean so they know what they are going to get? This was my harried response because in truth I'm not sure I know myself.

NS - 6Ts soul on the 4/4 beat

Xover - late 6Ts/70's soul with a predominant back beat

Modern -70's soul onwards with a disco feel and soulful lyrics

In my house the term Modern is used by my housemate to discribe my soul records he doesn't like

Samantha

[Guest]

In my house the term Modern is used by my housemate to discribe my soul records he doesn't like

Samantha

Samantha ....do you live with Pete Smith?

Edited August 1, 2006 by Simon White

[BrianB]

Never liked "Modern" Soul. Just can't see what it has to do with Northern Soul. However the context Richard and Russ put Modern into was the correct use of the word, meaning, I guess, recorded now, being played now.

This is not the context we put Modern soul into nowadays. We mean not 60ts, not Motown, not R&B, not a floater, not a beat ballad, but Northern that doesn't fit into any of those categories.

[SteveM]

Never liked "Modern" Soul. Just can't see what it has to do with Northern Soul. However the context Richard and Russ put Modern into was the correct use of the word, meaning, I guess, recorded now, being played now.

This is not the context we put Modern soul into nowadays. We mean not 60ts, not Motown, not R&B, not a floater, not a beat ballad, but Northern that doesn't fit into any of those categories.

I dont understand Brian.

Recorded now being played now ? Surely thats exactly whats now referred to as Modern Soul ?

You say you dont see what modern soul has to do with Northern, and then call it

"Northern that doesn't fit into any of these categories" ??????

And whats Russ got to do with Modern, be it now or in the very late seventies/early eighties when the term was coined ?

Steve

[Sean Hampsey]

As Dave Thorley and Robin Salter have already stated, Sam and Arthur Fenn started the " Modern Soul" scene. They said there were no good sixties sounds to be found (a statement withdrawn later obviously) and programmed seventies and new releases which caught on with an initially small number of people. They broke from the Northern Scene and had their own venues, quite a few around South Yorkshire, and the Highwaymans Halt (?) at Snaith, with their own playlists and a lot of cover ups. The music was tremendous, and I was lucky enough to get many of the records from John Anderson and played them at Clifton Hall, as did others.

Sean Hampsey in particular, while playing the above tunes, reactivated many forgotten Mecca plays at many venues, making " modern soul" (as then) more popular to the mainstream all nighters country wide. This was 81/82 I reckon. It was definitely modern soul then, and the term had nothing to do with the mid seventies playlists of Curtis and Levine, which as billywhizz said, were "newies"

Just the way I remember it Steve.

Lets face it, Post Wigan, there was only Clifton Hall.

At that particular venue (late 70's / early 80's) we inevitably played scores of 60's 'Northern' tracks but that 'wind of change' referred to earlier was blowing right through this part of the world.

With Sam & Arthur virtual 'outcasts' on the Northern Scene (because of their promotion of 70's & 80's 'newies') they broke away, sticking two proverbial fingers up at the traditional Northern scene and everything it stood for.

A couple of the Clifton Hall DJ's (you & me included) supported the programming of new material and saw fit to include in the playlists some of the tracks that they were plugging (I bought many a good 80's tune from Sam & Arthur at the time and helped plug them to the 'traditional' nighter audience). Clifton was the ideal music environment for me. A no boundaries policy - just good soul music to dance to, from all eras.

We all got our records from different sources which lead to huge variety in the playlist.

Poke and yourself were well supplied by John Anderson. Pat Brady turned up some superb items (old & new) Richard Searling delivered several exciting new LP tracks (mixed in with his 60's rarities)... and alongside these I managed to programme records from far and wide and from my own personal collection that had been gathering dust since I'd bought them as new releases (the sounds that Malc Burton referred to earlier) and those other underexposed (unplayed) 70's and 80's things such as "Getting Together" Brothers Guiding Light "I'm Not Ready" Ujima "Shake Off That Dream" Eddie Billups "I'm In Love With You" Bobby Patterson "I'm The One Who Loves You" Darrell Banks 'Ami I Cold Am I Hot' Bill Harris "We Did It" Syl Johnson "He's Always Somewhere Around" Donny Gerrard "Take It To The Limit" Norman Connors "Heaven In The Afternoon" Lew Kirton etc. none of which had received any kind of significant 'Northern Soul' exposure up to that point.

The 'Modern Soul' 'Breakaway' crowd at the time objected to the exclusion of Sam & Arthur from the key venues, but these two renegades and their followers sought sanctuary on their own soil and it wasn't too long before the uptake was substantial enough to exert enough pressure for the top venue promoters to take notice and include them on the Rosta - the first being the new 'After Dark' Allnighters at the Cleethorpes Winter Gardens (all in one room) followed by Bradford QH (in two rooms) and then Stafford.

The rest is history... but that's how, when and where it started.

And I'm blessed to have been there.

Sean Hampsey

Edited August 2, 2006 by Sean Hampsey

[Guest]

Quite a few 6Ts slowies too ..( At Stafford)

Beat Ballads,.............never heard any N/Soul records called slowies,ever............. thats last hour,at yer` yoof club,

[BrianB]

I dont understand Brian.

Recorded now being played now ? Surely thats exactly whats now referred to as Modern Soul ?

You say you dont see what modern soul has to do with Northern, and then call it

"Northern that doesn't fit into any of these categories" ??????

And whats Russ got to do with Modern, be it now or in the very late seventies/early eighties when the term was coined ?

Steve

Hi Steve,

I was referring to an earlier reply that mentioned Richard and Russ calling a record Modern. They did not mean Modern then in the 70s, the way we mean "modern" as a descriptive term for a genre of music.

ATB,

Brian

[Guest]

If records like Brother Guiding Light (mentioned previously by Sean) were being described as 'Modern' in 1980 when they were 6 or 7 years old, then that term had to mean 'Modern Soul' as in 'not Northern soul' or the term meant nothing...the record was by then 6/7 years old. But it has a relevance to the time because it hadn't had the plays up until then.

I can see how Lew Kirton was 'Modern' as a new release but unless you define WHY it was 'Modern' you might as well have said that every new Soul release in 1980 was 'Modern Soul'. But that wasn't the case.

From memory, the records that were being described as 'Modern' Soul were the ones with a particular dancabilty, coupled with a particular or percived obscurity. Just like the definitions for Northern soul, but with a different, but connected, sound.

This must explain records like the major label recording Johnny Bristol's 'Love No Longer Has A Hold On Me' Tyrone Barclay 'Man Of Value' from 1980 and 1979 respectively and the Disco aimed Omni 'Keys To The City' (from 1980 and surely a record only feasable on the Disco or Northern soul scene? But extend all this to Larry Houston 'Lets Spend Some Time Together' a Wigan play with its handclap break...but as untraditional northern Soul as you can get. So when Richard Searling played it, just how was he describing that sound? Was he calling it 'Modern Soul' because it was big at what was still traditionally a very 'Northern ' venue? ?

In the same way as a Northern Soul record isn't just any Soul record from 1966, it has to have the right sound, which is how Brian Hyland becomes a Northern soul record.

Hi Steve,

I was referring to an earlier reply that mentioned Richard and Russ calling a record Modern. They did not mean Modern then in the 70s, the way we mean "modern" as a descriptive term for a genre of music.

ATB,

Brian

Edited August 2, 2006 by Simon White