Soul As I Don't Know It

[Guest]

Just been watching the BBC Deep Soul programme, as much as I love these fantastic artists (and I do), why again do we have a Soul TV show aimed at an audience that does not exist.

Anyone who has taken Soul music into their lives and comes from this bizarre island we call home, will I am certain become bewitched by the Obscure/Rare/Northern version of this genre commonly known as Soul. Ask any self respecting Soul fan you know and they will tell you about artists that these TV journalists have never heard of ! Good God in heaven why can't somebody represent the most incredible music of all time without having to drag those old news reels of Sam & Dave up (hell I love it, but please I'm trying to make a point). Guess I'm just a bit miffed at seeing yet another representation of "SOUL" being hashed out with Aretha,Otis,Sam etc (these people are legends, I well know) but to present a chronicle of Soul music to a British audience and somehow airbrush out the most vitriolic and passionate obsessives that I for one have ever met, is nothing short of sacrilege.

Edited May 28, 2005 by Brett

[Guest waynep]

Thought tonights programme was good, each to there own eh brett.

[Gary]

Just been watching the BBC Deep Soul programme, as much as I love these fantastic artists (and I do), why again do we have a Soul  TV show aimed at an audience that does not exist.

Anyone who has taken Soul music into their lives and comes from this bizarre island we call home, will I am certain become bewitched by the Obscure/Rare/Northern version of this genre commonly known as Soul. Ask any self respecting Soul fan you know and they will tell you about artists that these TV journalists have never heard of ! Good God in heaven why can't somebody represent the most incredible music of all time  without having to drag those old news reels of Sam & Dave up (hell I love it, but please I'm trying to make a point). Guess I'm just a bit miffed at seeing yet another representation of "SOUL" being hashed out with Aretha,Otis,Sam etc (these people are legends, I well know) but to present a chronicle of Soul music to a British audience and somehow airbrush out the most vitriolic and passionate obsessives that I for one have ever met, is nothing short of sacrilege.

link

Good point Brett, but the first thing that comes to mind is did you expect anything different? I for one certainly did'nt and thus far have not been disappointed, the "quality" of the programme is undeniable. Ultimately it is abjectly mainstream, oh, and safe.

[Rob Wigley]

just watched the same program and thought it was brilliant, James carr who can't be really known to a wider Uk crowd and all the vintage footage. Did anyone know that In the midnight hour was writen in the same motel that martin luther king was shot in ? i didn't but I do now.

dark end of the street , fabulous, the film of the UK Stax tour who's got all that then ? gems like this come along once in a decade, the way it is filmed its obvious that the DVD box set is coming , they already have the CD.

I was disapointed with last weeks Motown offering as I knew the story, but this weeks hit the spot and it a hundered times better than watching 13 drongoes locked in a f**king house for 6 weeks.

was going to the CiS tonight but stayed in great bit of telly can't wait til i see james Brown and the funk lot next week.

as always enjoy it whilst you can !

[Guest]

Good point Brett, but the first thing that comes to mind is did you expect anything different? I for one certainly did'nt and thus far have not been disappointed, the "quality" of the programme is undeniable. Ultimately it is abjectly mainstream, oh, and safe.

link

Gary of course i didn't expect anything different, but hell, who has carried a torch for this genre of music more than fellows like me and you......nobody, so why the hell should we have to put up with this "representation" of "Soul" as is portrayed in the BBC........Good Lord i'd love to see a programme commisioned by the likes of Tim Brown, John Anderson, Pat Brady, Ady Croadsell etc (and a few more i forget)...and hell even Kevin Roberts, then and only then will we have a fair representation of what Soul music means to the majority of hard core fans in this Island of ours.

keep smiling

Edited May 28, 2005 by Brett

[Rob Wigley]

No matter how many times you put a television camera near a northern soul crowd or artist or whatever you know they are going to zoom in on the same bloke with a hundered tattoos and a beer towel doing a spin in slow motion.

you get put in your pigeon hole and thats it.

when we went to wigan in the 70s we got "have you been to the pier?"

Wigan Fc get promoted to the Premiership, the TV cameras are there and they show footage of the Casino now !!!!(same bloke, but younger), with the beer towels and less tattoos, the only thing Wigan was famous for is Northern Soul sad fact of life, whatever you are into get the media involved and you blow it !!!

[Gary]

Good Lord i'd love to see a programme commisioned by the likes of Tim Brown, John Anderson, Pat Brady, Ady Croadsell etc (and a few more i forget)...and hell even Kevin Roberts

link

That Brett, is exactly what is needed

How likely though?

[Reg]

There's a programme on BBC4 right now-"Only the strong survive" -Isaac Hayes, The chi-lites, Rufus Thomas, Jerry Butler and a few others -just put it on it looks okay

Edited May 28, 2005 by Reg

[Rob Wigley]

There's a programme on BBC4 right now-"Only the strong survive" -Isaac Hayes, The chi-lites, Rufus Thomas, Jerry Butler and a few others -just put it on it looks okay

link

Jerry butler om at the moment thanks !!!!

[Reg]

Jerry butler om at the moment thanks !!!!

link

He was great wasn't he!

[Rob Wigley]

we'll save up and get carla some new teeth and bring her over !

[Guest]

No matter how many times you put a television camera near a northern soul crowd or artist or whatever you know they are going to zoom in on the same bloke with a hundered tattoos and a beer towel doing a spin in slow motion.

you get put in your pigeon hole and thats it.

when we went to wigan in the 70s we got "have you been to the pier?"

Wigan Fc get promoted to the Premiership, the TV cameras are there and they show footage of the Casino now !!!!(same bloke, but younger), with the beer towels and less tattoos, the only thing Wigan was famous for is Northern Soul sad fact of life, whatever you are into get the media involved and you blow it !!!

link

Absolutley right there Consdad!absolutley right..Ken

[Reg]

we'll save up and get carla some new teeth and bring her over !

link

Mmm, yes. I did notice that her dad had significantly more teeth than her. Maybe she could borrow his? She sounded lovely tho.

[Mandy]

Gary of course i didn't expect anything different, but hell, who has carried a torch for this genre of music more than fellows like me and you......nobody, so why the hell should we have to put up with this "representation" of "Soul" as is portrayed in the BBC........Good Lord i'd love to see a programme commisioned by the likes of Tim Brown, John Anderson, Pat Brady, Ady Croadsell etc (and a few more i forget)...and hell even Kevin Roberts, then and only then will we have a fair representation of what Soul music means to the majority of hard core fans in this Island of ours.

keep smiling

link

Hi Brett, love the programmes but I thoroughly agree with you ... all the stuff on TV about soul is about things that we all already know and love. I live in the midlands and late last year we had a programme on central TV about soul as it is today ... GREAT I thought when I saw it advertised .... the guy making the programme (can't even remember his name) was in Derby at an 'oldies' night and talking to some guy (and this is NO detriment) wearing bags and a baseball/bowling shirt - again something that everyone has seen from years gone by. My dad (only 65 and a big music fanatic) always says to me "can't understand why you go those soul nights - they look like they're full of old people and nothing new is happening ... need I say more!

Why don't you, as a confident, bright person, contact the BBC/Granada whoever your local studios are and talk to someone who makes the 'small programmes'. I have a mate who used to work for the BBC and she would have done an excellent programme on semi- or unknown-artists had she not been made redundant whilst she was thinking about research etc.

Maybe we should all write/contact our local studios and get somebody to research all these fantastic vocalists/bands etc and come up with something new and exciting. As stated above I do love this programme but I've seen it all before.

Mandy

x

[Simsy]

Just been watching the BBC Deep Soul programme, as much as I love these fantastic artists (and I do), why again do we have a Soul  TV show aimed at an audience that does not exist.

Anyone who has taken Soul music into their lives and comes from this bizarre island we call home, will I am certain become bewitched by the Obscure/Rare/Northern version of this genre commonly known as Soul. Ask any self respecting Soul fan you know and they will tell you about artists that these TV journalists have never heard of ! Good God in heaven why can't somebody represent the most incredible music of all time  without having to drag those old news reels of Sam & Dave up (hell I love it, but please I'm trying to make a point). Guess I'm just a bit miffed at seeing yet another representation of "SOUL" being hashed out with Aretha,Otis,Sam etc (these people are legends, I well know) but to present a chronicle of Soul music to a British audience and somehow airbrush out the most vitriolic and passionate obsessives that I for one have ever met, is nothing short of sacrilege.

link

Watched England beat USA on Sky Sports. Just watched Soul Deep on tape.

I think the point you make about the 'UK audience' these days being mostly NS fans could well be true. In that it would be unlikely there would be Brit soul fans that just listened to Motown/Atlantic/Stax etc and hadn't heard of Northern/Rare soul, or didn't want to hear it.

I think the programme's foundation is that it is a retrospective of American sixties soul.

Whilst it would be good to see a full and thorough account of the Northern Soul scene from the late sixties to present day, the Soul Deep programme is something quite different. I thought Consdad's (does he have an offspring in jail? Or shouldn't we ask) comment about northern doc's always focussing in on the guy with the tatt's & beer towel was hilarious and true

Fact is the artist's we have been watching on this programme are of course the successful one's who made it. Perhaps the likes of Jackie W, Sam Cooke, Otis & Motown artists are more worthy of having documentaries made about them because of their massive record sales, fame and popularity.

I don't say that our obscure discoveries and underground scene does not warrant a story to be told. In truth though, for the best part, Northern Soul is about obscurity. Didn't everybody's friend Ian Levine do a documentary esq thing 'Strange World of Northern Soul'. I've not seen it. Would be interested to know what extent of folk on ere own a copy?

All good stuff though. Asking myself the question after tonight's show whether the Southern American Soul v Northern American soul - which if either had the edge . There's a thread right there! Polished Motown Cool of the Temps, Marvin & Smokey, or Raucous from the heart Southern STAX of Otis, Sam & Dave. Mmmm

[Sweeney]

Gary of course i didn't expect anything different, but hell, who has carried a torch for this genre of music more than fellows like me and you......nobody, so why the hell should we have to put up with this "representation" of "Soul" as is portrayed in the BBC........Good Lord i'd love to see a programme commisioned by the likes of Tim Brown, John Anderson, Pat Brady, Ady Croadsell etc (and a few more i forget)...and hell even Kevin Roberts, then and only then will we have a fair representation of what Soul music means to the majority of hard core fans in this Island of ours.

keep smiling

link

With respect, this programme isn't really aimed at the hardcore fans of Rare Soul. It's aimed at the Observer Music Monthly demographic. It's a pretty good effort considering the limitations on archive material etc. that the producers must have had to put up with.

Could a Rare Soul version of such a programme ever be made? I'd be surprised if it could. Scene politics would make it very unlikely, let alone the extremely specialist nature of the subject being deemed commercial enough to get an airing on even a channel such as BBC4.

Seeing as TV is a visual medium, how would you fill the time, without artist footage, or even artist interviews? it's a scene that's so esoteric and based in abject failure that there's not much visual that ever got recorded to support a TV Series.

Let's not forget that most attempts there has been to represent the Rare Soul scene in media has been mostly met with derision, suspicion or indifference by the "Hardcore fans". You get a lot of people telling you what's wrong with it, but not many willing to put their money where their mouth is and make something better. Look at the grief Levine got for SWONS, for example.

Edited May 29, 2005 by sweeney

[Guest Brian J]

[

Look at the grief Levine got for SWONS, for example.

link

[Billy Freemantle]

Another problem with showcasing the Northern scene in this way is that there is just no consensus as to what constitutes a good record on this scene. There are those who even argue that it doesn't matter that it's soul or not as long as it gave them a good time at Wigan, or reminds them of what they fondly remember as 'proper Northern Soul".Margaret Little springs to mind here.

I don't doubt your taste for one momemt Brett. I can still remember that radio spot you did wuth Mark Bicknell a short time ago. I would have been proud to be associated a selection such as that. But many records that are lauded as great on this scene are objectively and demonstrably crap.

[Rob Wigley]

I thought Consdad's (does he have an offspring in jail? Or shouldn't we ask) comment about northern doc's always focussing in on the guy with the tatt's & beer towel was hilarious and true

No offspring in Jail, but could lock the checky little bugger up sometimes...

and Mandy i was on that same TV program from the Midlands..they used me on the trailers...doing a spin in slow motion......no actually they interviewed a gang of us at Fish's do at Melbourne, Nat, elaine, cliff steele all fairly sensible people, well dressed etc. Devon, the guy who fronted the program, was great. Out of 20 mins of me talking bo***cks they used 7 seconds and didn't bother with ANYONE else from 2to 3 hours of filming that night, FISH was GUTTED (pun intended).

We mention the places we go, the distances we travel, the records we buy and sell, what they mean to us. Not interested.

We have had at least 3 film crews at Prestatyn, but they are fascinated with the Northern Soul "Uniform" thing. What WE don't understand on the scene is that someone walking into a room with "Northern Soul forever" tattooed on their back, 40 inch Bags and a lorry load of Talc is NOT NORMAL, just because we all see them week in week out. just remember how Teddy Boys used to stand out in the 1970s when they were going through their "revival" thing !

So unless as suggested by Brett that you get "proper" rare soul people to produce these things you'll never do it right. think of the TV things that have come out over the years and the people interviewed, Dave Withers, Guy Hennigan, Pete Lawson to name 3 people who I respect as Knowlageable collectors/dealers/promotors and friends all gave cracking performances on TV but got sandwiched between the same old "Beer towel" thing.

Levines SWONS is a great effort, well ahead of its time and needed doing. The trouble with Ian, love him or hate him, is that he does tend to shove stuff down your throat ! By which i mean there's too much of it

Its like the Motor City stuff he did, great idea but we couldn't handle 40 new releases a week. As with the SWONS 24hours of footage !!!! too Much, Star Wars doesn't go on that long ! (although half the cast from the Star Wars Bar go to our local soul night)

So in summary, Northern Soul, take your own piece of what you like from it, defend the faith, do whats right, don't rip people off and enjoy yourself, but don't expect the media to see it your way because its never going to happen.

Ps if anyone wants their copy of the midlands today prog. signing i will be in the foyer at Prestatyn XX!

Edited May 29, 2005 by consdad

[John May]

I enjoyed the programme, i love the stax and southern soul stuff, real emotion in the artsists voices, and for me that is what soul is all about. I sat there for an hour just in awe at those artists especially Otis.....

To be honest I would rather watch a programme like that rather than one on Northern Soul, because as said before, your guarenteed footage of wide trousers and tunes like Judy Street " What "....... Personally I would rather listen to Otis Redding irrespective of it's commercial value.

Must admit would have liked to have seen footage of say, Margie Joseph, or Carla Thomas.......never mind, can't have it all.

[Rob Wigley]

A progam like this is great, going to the FAME/ STAX studios and showing the dedication of the young WHITE musicians involved at a time when it could have cost them their LIFE even talking to a black person.

Just had a thought, there's a thin line between Country "blue Grass" and southern Soul !

[John May]

A progam like this is great, going to the FAME/ STAX studios and showing the dedication of the young WHITE musicians involved at a time when it could have cost them their LIFE even talking to a black person.

Just had a thought, there's a thin line between Country "blue Grass" and southern Soul !

link

It said in the programme what "Fame" stood for, an abreviation, can't remember now what it was......anyone remember ?

[Rob Wigley]

It said in the programme what "Fame" stood for, an abreviation, can't remember now what it was......anyone remember ?

link

The Grandly titled

Florence Alabama Music Enterprises

FAME for short

just watched the playback !!!!

Edited May 29, 2005 by consdad

[John May]

The Grandly titled

Florence Alabama Music Enterprises

FAME  for short

just watched the playback !!!!

link

Thanks.......Yes, I remember now.

[Guest]

We discussed a while back the merits and pitfalls of Levines "Strange World", to briefly summarize, I thought the use of the original artists singing in trailer parks etc, just didn't cut the ice (I was aware that the cost of using the original songs etc, would have been enormous......but to me that would have been pivotal, how can you begin to represent a huge musical genre, then ignore the very essence of it !).

Back to all the points raised (and all valid and interesting) I would prefer the focus of a "Northern" documentary to be directed at the Vinyl records that each and everyone of us loves , the bearing would then fall on the artist,producer,musicians, writers etc, of course the fabric of the "Scene" should be dealt with accordingly (I don't see that many "Bags" etc when out and about) I've met many people who cover all the ages of the Rare Soul "Odyssey" each one having regaled me with many a fascinating tale. Just to reiterate on the BBC programme, I adore all that old footage, and have records by all those artists covered, but I guess it pains me when the music I listen to a daily basis (and last time I looked they called it "Soul") is once again totally sidestepped.

Guess that's why its called......RARE SOUL......

Brett

[Guest lagerlout]

Thanks.......Yes, I remember now.

link

missed it all last night but taped it on sky +

so will watch it today sometime.

and give my verdict later..

all in all i have enjoyed the programmes

but up to now as not really dug deep into

our music we call northern,and what massive effect it

still is on the british soul scene.

[Godzilla]

I enjoyed the programme, i love the stax and southern soul stuff, real emotion in the artsists voices, and for me that is what soul is all about.  I sat there for an hour just in awe at those artists especially Otis.....

To be honest I would rather watch a programme like that rather than one on Northern Soul, because as said before, your guarenteed footage of wide trousers and tunes like Judy Street " What "....... Personally I would rather listen to Otis Redding irrespective of it's commercial value.

Must admit would have liked to have seen footage of say, Margie Joseph, or Carla Thomas.......never mind, can't have it all.

link

Spot on John

The programme is not called "Northern Soul Deep" why can't people just enjoy this fine show for what it is?

It's like tuning in to "World of Cheese" and complaining that sardines never get a look in.

Godz

[Rob Wigley]

Spot on John

The programme is not called "Northern Soul Deep" why can't people just enjoy this fine show for what it is?

It's like tuning in to "World of Cheese" and complaining that sardines never get a look in.

Godz

link

Would that be Ian levines "Strange world of cheese" trvelling the country interviewing people who make rare and obscure cheese's on small labels ?

[simonb]

Great comment on the relationship of Black & white musicans - Post MLK's murder!

The real turning point of Funk music?

Do you think that's why so many people don't get funk? Is it too black????

[Godzilla]

Do you think that's why so many people don't get funk? Is it too black????

link

Godz

[Sweeney]

We discussed a while back the merits and pitfalls of Levines "Strange World", to briefly summarize, I thought the use of the original artists singing in trailer parks etc, just didn't cut the ice (I was aware that the cost of using the original songs etc, would have been enormous......but to me that would have been pivotal, how can you begin to represent a huge musical genre, then ignore the very essence of it !).

Back to all the points raised (and all valid and interesting) I would prefer the focus of a "Northern" documentary to be directed at the Vinyl records that each and everyone of us loves , the bearing would then fall on the artist,producer,musicians, writers etc, of course the fabric of the "Scene" should be dealt with accordingly (I don't see that many "Bags" etc when out and about) I've met many people who cover all the ages of the Rare Soul "Odyssey" each one having regaled me with many a fascinating tale. Just to reiterate on the BBC programme, I adore all that old footage, and have records by all those artists covered, but I guess it pains me when the music I listen to a daily basis (and last time I looked they called it "Soul") is once again totally sidestepped.

Guess that's why its called......RARE SOUL......

Brett

link

Brett, I guess many people share your pain. The Rare Soul Scene alone has a fascinating oral history (to us, anyway), and I hope one day someone will be able to do it full justice. Black American Music has an even more fascinating story, and I feel that Soul Deep isn't a bad attempt to put the period it deals with into a context that most people could digest as entertainment without being bored rigid about matrix numbers and the like.

As an essentially underground scene, I guess it's open to misinterpretation at best, to downright ridicule at worst. Even after all these years mention Northern Soul and it's a reasonable bet that (non-scene) people still think of Wigan's Chosen Few, or more recently the dreaded "Northern Soul Patrol".

The commercial realities of the type of project you propose would make it unlikely unless it could "cross over" to the mainstream. A good example of this was the Dave Godin CDs that Kent released. A very credible product which got taken up by general music fans as a result of its' exposure in the media (The Guardian if I recall).

I wonder if a lot of the essence of this scene is its mysterious, nay exclusive nature, (coupled with the magnificent music of course!) and any attempt to explain it will destroy that very essence.

To suggest is to create - to describe is to destroy as they say!

[Mattbolton]

>Fact is the artist's we have been watching on this programme are of course the successful one's >who made it. Perhaps the likes of Jackie W, Sam Cooke, Otis & Motown artists are more worthy >of having documentaries made about them because of their massive record sales, fame and >popularity.

I'd argue that Jackie warrants inclusion on his vocal merit and not his popularity. Unlike Otis. Whose vocal talents, in my opinion, were very ordinary compared to his contemporaries. And whose husky range is shatteringly poor next to the emotive complexities of the Brunswick hero.

Besides, they've mentioned him about once in three weeks covering the birth of soul. The fact that Berry wrote all those amazing records for him surely should have dictated that he ought to have been slotted in previous to the Motown episode. Am I on too much of a Jackie trip? I guess so. But I love him without equal.

>friend Ian Levine do a documentary esq thing 'Strange World of Northern Soul'. I've not seen >it. Would be interested to know what extent of folk on ere own a copy?

I'm in it tho still haven't seen it. When I saw the preview at the Ealing mansion, and sat horrified as a toothless Billy Butler sang 'Right Track' in his humble living room to a horrible track and crass psychedelic visuals, I knew I couldn't watch any more.

>Polished Motown Cool of the Temps, Marvin & Smokey, or Raucous from the heart Southern >STAX of Otis, Sam & Dave. Mmmm

How about the social desperation and complexities in Motown records like 'I'm A Struggling Man' by Edwin Starr? Absolutely from the heart. And more telling than anything Stax ever released. Though I'm sure a ton of people will prove me wrong. Interesting how Motown managed to act as a voice of Black oppression and STILL shift 45's, despite being rubber stamped as black music for white folks. I'd argue that Stax played the more prominent role in selling soul to white folks.....

Edited May 30, 2005 by mattbolton

[Mattbolton]

We discussed a while back the merits and pitfalls of Levines "Strange World", to briefly summarize, I thought the use of the original artists singing in trailer parks etc, just didn't cut the ice (I was aware that the cost of using the original songs etc, would have been enormous......but to me that would have been pivotal, how can you begin to represent a huge musical genre, then ignore the very essence of it !). Brett

link

As I sat in his living room with a wall full of original, obviously expensive, Disney artworks from some of the most famous of Walts films, I couldn't help but think the sale of at least two of them would have paid for a decent band to go into the studio and record the tracks with some sort of dignity. Tho I guess that decision wasn't mine.

[Guest]

What makes me dislike Stax (good stuff to be found though, especially on Volt, and especially AFTER the typical stax sound died!) is the fact that white middle aged male rock critics with a very limited interest in and knowledge about soul always like it, which speaks for itself I think! Old men who like shit rock music, like Stax. Loads of pop crap and also some decent pop on Motown but so much good stuff too. So many good voices and so many good tunes, totally superior to Stax in every way. I get very angry, violent even, if someone tries to shove stinking 60's commercial Stax down my throat. I hate it so much. People who say things like "the real soul was on Stax, and Motown was for the pop audience" should simply be shot without prior warning. The insult is that grave. That's how I feel

[Guest LeoLyxxx]

What makes me dislike Stax (good stuff to be found though, especially on Volt, and especially AFTER the typical stax sound died!) is the fact that white middle aged male rock critics with a very limited interest in and knowledge about soul always like it, which speaks for itself I think! Old men who like shit rock music, like Stax. Loads of pop crap and also some decent pop on Motown but so much good stuff too. So many good voices and so many good tunes, totally superior to Stax in every way. I get very angry, violent even, if someone tries to shove stinking 60's commercial Stax down my throat. I hate it so much.   People who say things like "the real soul was on Stax, and Motown was for the pop audience" should simply be shot without prior warning. The insult is that grave. That's how I feel

link

I kinda agree here Christian, also the critics in the swedish press tend to focus only in what in their minds is "real" soul which only means Muscle Shoals, Stax, Memphis, early Candi Staton e.tc. and i think it's a shame, it's a very narrow-minded way to see things BUT i also think Stax's reputation amongst rare soul collectors is quite misleading, not just the Volt stuff is good but there are gems almost everywhere in the Stax cataloge IMO.

I never really liked the "rock" sound of Stax but man they could produce ballads

But still needless to say, Volt is far superior to Stax in good outings

best

Leo

[Ernie Andrews]

Did anyone see lat weeks Soul deep?- What I thought was interesting was the comment that Berry Gordy was purely making(motown machine) music for white people.- This is in my opinion why Motown should never be considered as part of the "Northern soul scene" - Cannot see Carmichael /relf/ Nelson making records for the white popoulation back in the 60s but I may be wrong about it

[Mattbolton]

Did anyone see lat weeks Soul deep?- What I thought was interesting was the comment that Berry Gordy was purely making(motown machine) music for white people.- This is in my opinion why Motown should never be considered as part of the "Northern soul scene" - Cannot see Carmichael /relf/ Nelson making records for the white popoulation back in the 60s but I may be wrong about it

link

To be honest, I'd imagine that seeing the success of their Motown contemporaries so evident they'd probably have aspired, musically, to the same ambitions. They all had to pay the bills. And Motown seemed to be paying them better than most... Most of the time.....

To rubbish Motown off the scene for being made for white people seems kind of odd Ernie. Unless you can claim some mighty afro-american heritage, then your points don't seem particularly salient. Especially in light of fate dictating that it was arguably white people who uncovered most of the best black soul music in the last 40 years which subsequently appears never to have been made for a black audience anyway. I bet your bottom dollar 'Papa Was A Rolling Stone' wasn't written for the white man, though would agree that it isn't a Northern record.

If you ever went to the Wheel (around the time when i wasn't even born), then you'll know that Motown was key in introducing soul music to the UK. Far more than Stax I'd imagine. And besides, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the whole 'Northern Soul scene' come into being with tracks like 'I'll Keep On Holding On' and 'Heatwave'?!

Edited May 30, 2005 by mattbolton

[Chalky]

If you ever went to the Wheel (around the time when i wasn't even born), then you'll know that Motown was key in introducing soul music to the UK. Far more than Stax I'd imagine.  And besides, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the whole 'Northern Soul scene' come into being with tracks like 'I'll Keep On Holding On' and 'Heatwave'?!

link

That maybe so but it later evolved into the playing of imports and thus the "Rare" soul scene.

Records like Baby Love etc really have no place on the scene and I for one wouldn't want to hear records like that, as good as some of them are they are basically MOR pop which was aimed at white audiences as that was where the money was. Having said that gotta agree with Christian and say that there are many great soulful Motown releases (and unreleased) that do have a place on the scene. There's also many great soulful Stax releases too!

[Simsy]

>Fact is the artist's we have been watching on this programme are of course the successful one's >who made it.  Perhaps the likes of Jackie W, Sam Cooke, Otis & Motown artists are more worthy >of having documentaries made about them because of their massive  record sales, fame and >popularity.

I'd argue that Jackie warrants inclusion on his vocal merit and not his popularity. Unlike Otis. Whose vocal talents, in my opinion, were very ordinary compared to his contemporaries. And whose husky range is shatteringly poor next to the emotive complexities of the Brunswick hero.

Besides, they've mentioned him about once in three weeks covering the birth of soul. The fact that Berry wrote all those amazing records for him surely should have dictated that he ought to have been slotted in previous to the Motown episode. Am I on too much of a Jackie trip? I guess so. But I love him without equal.

>friend Ian Levine do a documentary esq thing 'Strange World of Northern Soul'.  I've not seen >it.  Would be interested to know what extent of folk on ere own a copy?

I'm in it tho still haven't seen it. When I saw the preview at the Ealing mansion, and sat horrified as a toothless Billy Butler sang 'Right Track' in his humble living room to a horrible track and crass psychedelic visuals, I knew I couldn't watch any more.

>Polished Motown Cool of the Temps, Marvin & Smokey, or Raucous from the heart Southern >STAX of Otis, Sam & Dave. Mmmm

How about the social desperation and complexities in Motown records like 'I'm A Struggling Man' by Edwin Starr? Absolutely from the heart. And more telling than anything Stax ever released. Though I'm sure a ton of people will prove me wrong. Interesting how Motown managed to act as a voice of Black oppression and STILL shift 45's, despite being rubber stamped as black music for white folks. I'd argue that Stax played the more prominent role in selling soul to white folks.....

link

Matt, Surprised me in all honesty that you would describe Otis Redding's vocal talents as 'very ordinary'. Such a rich soul singing voice. His voice blew the Stax people away. He put James Carr in the shade and eclipsed Sam & Dave 's live performances. Booker T played piano on the These arms of mine demo and admitted he was paying more mind to listening to Otis' voice than playing the piano. This is not the legacy of an artist that's very ordinary.

You can never be on too much of a Jackie trip mate! He was fantastic. I keep wrestling with preference between him, Otis and Sam Cooke. JW has the amazing wailing emotion. Otis, the rich all soulful vocal. And Sam Cooke seems to have a blend of the two. So sometimes I think he's #1. However I keep coming back to Jackie and with the amount of quality discs that made it big on the Northern scene (fave overall music) he remains closest to the heart.

SWONS sounds p1ss poor - front room? Toothless? Crass psychedelic visuals!

As for Stax playing the more prominent role in selling soul to white folks. Maybe a grittier, soulful style counts for something. But then do you reclassify the Supremes as pure pop and not soul? Tough one, but under the Motown banner they just nick it as soul imo. Supremes were the number one selling soul group in the US. Marvin Gaye was number two and the Temptations were number three. So I think prominence accolade really has to go to Motown generally speaking.

All good stuff mate. Looking forward to your set at next 100 Club.

Simsy.

PS, I note your JW edit 'And whose husky range is shatteringly poor next to the emotive complexities of the Brunswick hero.' There aren't big enough words to describe Jackie's fantasticness (there's a word)! Otis may have a limited range by comparison. However that huskiness you speak of and his delivery was a unique and awesome contributory factor to Otis' greatness.

Edited May 30, 2005 by Ian Sims

[Chalky]

Matt, Surprised me in all honesty that you would describe Otis Redding's vocal talents as 'very ordinary'.  Such a rich soul singing voice. His voice blew the Stax people away. He put James Carr in the shade and eclipsed Sam & Dave 's live performances. 

link

Give me James Carr over Otis anyday of the week, no comparison IMO

[Simsy]

Give me James Carr over Otis anyday of the week, no comparison IMO 

link

Each to his own Chalk, each to his own. With you on the no comparison thing, albeit in a round about way.

[Guest]

Otis Redding was a great soul singer IMO. There were many others as good and quite a few better in the southern vein, but I still rate him as good. When I say Stax I mean the mainstream commercial 60's tunes, the tunes that it is famous for. If you look hard enough you can find good stuff on most labels, but that is not what this is about. Even some of the best selling Motown is very good, and soul at the same time. The better tunes from The Temptations, Four Tops, Gladys Knight, Mircales, Marvin, etc. is all great soul. The better Motown is great music that means something, music of lasting quality, not stupid rock'n'soul novelty tunes.

Edited May 30, 2005 by Guest

[Guest]

What makes me dislike Stax (good stuff to be found though, especially on Volt, and especially AFTER the typical stax sound died!) is the fact that white middle aged male rock critics with a very limited interest in and knowledge about soul always like it, which speaks for itself I think! Old men who like shit rock music, like Stax. Loads of pop crap and also some decent pop on Motown but so much good stuff too. So many good voices and so many good tunes, totally superior to Stax in every way. I get very angry, violent even, if someone tries to shove stinking 60's commercial Stax down my throat. I hate it so much.   People who say things like "the real soul was on Stax, and Motown was for the pop audience" should simply be shot without prior warning. The insult is that grave. That's how I feel

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You could be right there Christian!after all L Zaverroni came out on Stax,but i would`nt dismiss it all though,absolutly some great tunes on stax!!!!

PS I thats me :king:love Rock music but like soul/shit,rock/shite dont dont float me boat!!!!....Ken

Edited May 30, 2005 by kenneth aitchison

[Billywhizz]

No matter how many times you put a television camera near a northern soul crowd or artist or whatever you know they are going to zoom in on the same bloke with a hundered tattoos and a beer towel doing a spin in slow motion.

you get put in your pigeon hole and thats it.

when we went to wigan in the 70s we got "have you been to the pier?"

Wigan Fc get promoted to the Premiership, the TV cameras are there and they show footage of the Casino now !!!!(same bloke, but younger), with the beer towels and less tattoos, the only thing Wigan was famous for is Northern Soul sad fact of life, whatever you are into get the media involved and you blow it !!!

link

Could'nt put that any better my self,I wonder if them div's behind the camera really know what was going on,oh gotta go now before boot's chemist close's.

Billy

[FrankM]

Back to all the points raised (and all valid and interesting) I would prefer the focus of a "Northern" documentary to be directed at the Vinyl records that each and everyone of us loves , the bearing would then fall on the artist,producer,musicians, writers etc, of course the fabric of the "Scene" should be dealt with accordingly (I don't see that many "Bags" etc when out and about) I've met many people who cover all the ages of the Rare Soul "Odyssey" each one having regaled me with many a fascinating tale.

I believe these are called radio shows and BBC Radio Scotland did a six part series on Southern Soul a couple of years ago. The BBC have also done several series on Motown and at leat one on Funk, another on New Orleans but none as far as I can recall on Philadelphia.

Between 1960 and 1970 Motown in the US had 174 top ten R&B and

94 top ten Pop hits. I belive that's a ratio of two hits on the black chart to each one on the white charts. On the other hand when it comes to Motown's big million sellers 70% of sales were to white people.

FrankM

[Dave Moore]

That maybe so but it later evolved into the playing of imports and thus the "Rare" soul scene.

Records like Baby Love etc really have no place on the scene and I for one wouldn't want to hear records like that, as good as some of them are they are basically MOR pop which was aimed at white audiences as that was where the money was. 

Err, I get confused over statements like this. If you regard the artists/writers/producers/musicians etc as producing what they did for anything other than the bottom line then that imo is totally niaive. They simply used their talents (same as a bricklayer), in an attempt to make a living in a profession they felt they had something to offer. You ask Popcorn if he would rather a top ten "pop" record in '67 or a sought after "raresoul" rarity that sold nil in '05? Christ, half the musicians/artists/labels in Detroit would have given their right arms to have half the "white peoples money success" that Motown had.

I agree that records like Baby Love have no place on the rare soul scene, but for quite different reasons. Basically, you can hear it on the radio, at home, at "normal' discos etc etc. Therefore it becomes MOR. But musically and the reason it was produced is imo one and the same as Jackie Beavers on Revilot. You think the Solid Hitbound Team or the folks at Pied Piper did what they did for the love of it?? Read Jack Ashfords book. Kinda puts things in perspective.

If you speak to artists still involved in the business, they STILL see the $$$ when you discuss their current projects. (ie. What's in it for me? This is how I make my living), and quite rightly so. You wouldn't ask a plumber to fix your leak for nothing would you. No difference imo.

"Aimed at white audiences as that's where the money was". Too right Chalky lad. And thank God they did eh?

Nice talkin' to ya....

Regards,

Dave

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest in town Mikey]

I know quite a few people who claim to love Aretha, or Otis or Marvin. They have their 'best of' cds filed away with their George Michael and Radiohead cds.

For some people they only want to hear what they heard on Radio 1 when they were growing up.

Most love dancing 'Northern Soul' style to the Supremes at wedding receptions, and some are pretty nifty dancers. Most I have tried to get interested in Northern Soul. All think its OK, but on the whole is sub standard.

If I had played them Otis Clay - The only way is up, before Yazz made it a pop hit, they would have probably shown just the indifference they had shown most of the other tunes I played them. After the Yazz hit, they see Otis' as a less good version. Same with Tainted Love, Money's too tight etc.

They dont think of music in the same way as we do. And they all probably have been enjoying Soul Deep as much as I have. And maybe they even feel that it is TOO in Depth at times.

Edited May 31, 2005 by in town Mikey

[Guest Dan]

Err, I get confused over statements like this. If you regard the artists/writers/producers/musicians etc as producing what they did for anything other than the bottom line then that imo is totally niaive. They simply used their talents  (same as a bricklayer), in an attempt to make a living in a profession they felt they had something to offer.  You ask Popcorn if he would rather a top ten "pop" record in '67 or a sought after "raresoul" rarity that sold nil in '05? Christ, half the musicians/artists/labels in Detroit would have given their right arms to have half the "white peoples money success" that Motown had.  

I agree that records like Baby Love have no place on the rare soul scene, but for quite different reasons. Basically, you can hear it on the radio, at home, at "normal' discos etc etc. Therefore it becomes MOR.  But musically and the reason it was produced is imo one and the same as Jackie Beavers on Revilot.  You think the Solid Hitbound Team or the folks at Pied Piper did what they did for the love of it?? Read Jack Ashfords book. Kinda puts things in perspective.

If you speak to artists still involved in the business, they STILL see the $$$ when you discuss their current projects. (ie. What's in it for me? This is how I make my living), and quite rightly so. You wouldn't ask a plumber to fix your leak for nothing would you. No difference imo.

Regards,

Dave

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

link

absolutely spot on dave

Edited May 31, 2005 by Dan

[Simsy]

Off Topic Quicky, sorry

Love the avatar Dan!

[Little-stevie]

Just been watching the BBC Deep Soul programme, as much as I love these fantastic artists (and I do), why again do we have a Soul  TV show aimed at an audience that does not exist.

Anyone who has taken Soul music into their lives and comes from this bizarre island we call home, will I am certain become bewitched by the Obscure/Rare/Northern version of this genre commonly known as Soul. Ask any self respecting Soul fan you know and they will tell you about artists that these TV journalists have never heard of ! Good God in heaven why can't somebody represent the most incredible music of all time  without having to drag those old news reels of Sam & Dave up (hell I love it, but please I'm trying to make a point). Guess I'm just a bit miffed at seeing yet another representation of "SOUL" being hashed out with Aretha,Otis,Sam etc (these people are legends, I well know) but to present a chronicle of Soul music to a British audience and somehow airbrush out the most vitriolic and passionate obsessives that I for one have ever met, is nothing short of sacrilege.

link

Thats commercial tv for you mate...To get a programme like that through at that time of the night they have to go for the mainstream and a large viewing public..Ina commercial world they have to play safe..Like we have always said mate,if you want the real deal you really have to search for it...