Any Chess Experts Out There?

[Dave Moore]

Is there any way of identifying who played on what for Chess in the mid sixties? With such a prolific catalogue and such a diverse A&R rosta, in terms of genre and styles, surely it couldn't be the same guys all the time like Gordy had at Motown?

I know that Leonard Caston, Maurice White, Louis Satterfield, Phil Upchurch, Gene Barge, Brice Robertson, Gerald Sims, Ray Miner etc were all part of a loose collection of musicians that have since been classed as the 'house band", but if you listen to things like:

The Valentinos - "Sweeter Than The Day Before" or Tony Clark - "Landslide" There's no Chicago signature to these tracks.

It's obvious (at least to these old tired lugs), that the Chicago 'sound' has been replaced by the Detroit 'sound'. With Billy Davis at the helm by the early/mid sixties and his solid Detroit background coupled with the fact that it's well know that many of the Detroit musicians would trundle up the Windy City on a regular basis, I'm wondering if there is any documentary evidence to establish who was in the studio when these types of recordings were made. Any help appreciated, even if it's just a pointer towards a book or a CD.

TIA.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Nadine Cohodas' book about Chess goes into some depth aboout the musicians. The unsing hero of many of the 60s soul sessions would seem to be guitartist Pete Cosey, whose immediately idenifiable style can be heard on all sorts of classics, from "The Entertainer" to "Sitting In The Park".

I'm sure that Mr. Abrahamian will be able to expound further when he comes online from the Windy City!

[Liamgp]

Nadine Cohodas' book about Chess goes into some depth aboout the musicians. The unsing hero of many of the 60s soul sessions would seem to be guitartist Pete Cosey, whose immediately idenifiable style can be heard on all sorts of classics, from "The Entertainer" to "Sitting In The Park".

I'm sure that Mr. Abrahamian will be able to expound further when he comes online from the Windy City!

Didn't members of the Motown Funk Brothers work on certain Chess sessions - much to the anger of Berry Gordy?

[soulcrew]

Is there any way of identifying who played on what for Chess in the mid sixties? With such a prolific catalogue and such a diverse A&R rosta, in terms of genre and styles, surely it couldn't be the same guys all the time like Gordy had at Motown?

I know that Leonard Caston, Maurice White, Louis Satterfield, Phil Upchurch, Gene Barge, Brice Robertson, Gerald Sims, Ray Miner etc were all part of a loose collection of musicians that have since been classed as the 'house band", but if you listen to things like:

The Valentinos - "Sweeter Than The Day Before" or Tony Clark - "Landslide" There's no Chicago signature to these tracks.

It's obvious (at least to these old tired lugs), that the Chicago 'sound' has been replaced by the Detroit 'sound'. With Billy Davis at the helm by the early/mid sixties and his solid Detroit background coupled with the fact that it's well know that many of the Detroit musicians would trundle up the Windy City on a regular basis, I'm wondering if there is any documentary evidence to establish who was in the studio when these types of recordings were made. Any help appreciated, even if it's just a pointer towards a book or a CD.

TIA.

Hey up dave i was singing at the back of the room when we went to the Chess studios while in Chicago three weeks ago i did,nt know the words but i did my best if thats any use to you all the best Yocky

[Dave Moore]

Nadine Cohodas' book about Chess goes into some depth aboout the musicians. The unsing hero of many of the 60s soul sessions would seem to be guitartist Pete Cosey, whose immediately idenifiable style can be heard on all sorts of classics, from "The Entertainer" to "Sitting In The Park".

I'm sure that Mr. Abrahamian will be able to expound further when he comes online from the Windy City!

Hi Tony,

It's been a while since I read "Spinning" so I'll dig it out. Can't remember any reference to Detroit musicians though. Thanks for the reminder.

[Dave Moore]

Didn't members of the Motown Funk Brothers work on certain Chess sessions - much to the anger of Berry Gordy?

That's the thing......where did you get the info from? They are documented on some Chicago outings but is/are there some references, (even if anecdotal), of any Chess recording sessions? Or are we all relying on our ears?

[Dave Moore]

Hey up dave i was singing at the back of the room when we went to the Chess studios while in Chicago three weeks ago i did,nt know the words but i did my best if thats any use to you all the best Yocky

I know.......I taped it!! Hope your well Matey.

[Kris Holmes]

Chess definitely had a fairly stable rhythm section pool of players who they used during the Billy Davis era (62 to 68), their horn sections however were more a case of whoever, there was little stability there. As far as I've been able to establish it is very hard to confirm exactly who plays on what, I can't find any written reference to the funk bros playing on any particular Chess 45s, but with the Billy Davis connection it's not impossible as they are known for sure to have played other Chicago sessions for Brunswick etc. Also they had a lot of stuff on Chess through their St Louis (Oliver Sain etc) & DC (Billy Stewart, Knight Bros) etc connections which were recorded out of town, not to mention the Muscle Shoals stuff too. With Tony Clarke's Detroit connection he may well have used funk bros, Valentinos may just be their road band, who knows for sure?

[boba]

Chess definitely had a fairly stable rhythm section pool of players who they used during the Billy Davis era (62 to 68), their horn sections however were more a case of whoever, there was little stability there. As far as I've been able to establish it is very hard to confirm exactly who plays on what, I can't find any written reference to the funk bros playing on any particular Chess 45s, but with the Billy Davis connection it's not impossible as they are known for sure to have played other Chicago sessions for Brunswick etc. Also they had a lot of stuff on Chess through their St Louis (Oliver Sain etc) & DC (Billy Stewart, Knight Bros) etc connections which were recorded out of town, not to mention the Muscle Shoals stuff too. With Tony Clarke's Detroit connection he may well have used funk bros, Valentinos may just be their road band, who knows for sure?

I couldn't tell you who played on what, most of the session people I talked to also couldn't as they played on so many things and don't remember the records. I'm pretty sure the valentinos records were recorded in chicago though so if it's detroit musicians they were brought here.

[Dave Moore]

I couldn't tell you who played on what, most of the session people I talked to also couldn't as they played on so many things and don't remember the records. I'm pretty sure the valentinos records were recorded in chicago though so if it's detroit musicians they were brought here.

Kris, Bob,

Many thanks for the replies. It's as I suspected, info lost in time. After visiting the Chess Studio on South Michigan I have to say it was sad to see the way it's legacy has been allowed to disintegrate. With the new Stax Museum, the Hitsville Museum and the Philly recognition of it's musical heritage I think Chicago could use a kick up the arse in so much as Chess and Record Row are concerned. The Willie Dixon Blues Foundation is a step in the right direction but the company was so much more than the blues. Chicago is a great city, a great place to visit with a good sense of "looking after the visitor", seems a shame that a part of the city's heritage has been largely ignored.

So.....it's back to the ears then to try and fathom it out.

[Guest SoulRenaissance]

I couldn't tell you who played on what, most of the session people I talked to also couldn't as they played on so many things and don't remember the records. I'm pretty sure the valentinos records were recorded in chicago though so if it's detroit musicians they were brought here.

According to one of the Mike Terry interviews, he said that he played on "Sweeter than the day before" along with the other Funk Brothers. Also when i met Sonny Monroe in '98, told me that the Funk Brothers also did the session with Jackie Ross "Selfish one".

Martyn

[Dave Moore]

According to one of the Mike Terry interviews, he said that he played on "Sweeter than the day before" along with the other Funk Brothers. Also when i met Sonny Monroe in '98, told me that the Funk Brothers also did the session with Jackie Ross "Selfish one".

Martyn

Hi Martyn,

He categorically stated that he played at VeeJay and other studios and also mentions Jamerson as being in Chicago at the same time on some of the gigs but have you a reference for any actual records or sessions. I've listened to a lot of the Chess stuff and believe that the backbone of some of the records are Detroit musicians but it's proving difficult to show any real provenance. "Selfish One" is good example, many similarities with lots of Martha Reeves backing tracks.

The Valentinos may be Womack singing but it's Detroit through and through in my opinion. As is "Landslide". Mike Terry even states that Mickey Stevenson used to bollock them as individuals because he recognised individual players on non Motown sides.

It's not the end of the world but it'd be nice to id the stuff they did for sure.

[Guest SoulRenaissance]

Hi Martyn,

He categorically stated that he played at VeeJay and other studios and also mentions Jamerson as being in Chicago at the same time on some of the gigs but have you a reference for any actual records or sessions. I've listened to a lot of the Chess stuff and believe that the backbone of some of the records are Detroit musicians but it's proving difficult to show any real provenance. "Selfish One" is good example, many similarities with lots of Martha Reeves backing tracks.

The Valentinos may be Womack singing but it's Detroit through and through in my opinion. As is "Landslide". Mike Terry even states that Mickey Stevenson used to bollock them as individuals because he recognised individual players on non Motown sides.

It's not the end of the world but it'd be nice to id the stuff they did for sure.

Dave hello. Sorry no info on sessions, references, etc. But forgot that the Celebrities backed Tony Clarke on the other side of "Landslide", which i read in some magazine. The Celebrities of Boss/Ten High labels. Also check the Johnny Williams "My baby's good", which i heard was Detroit Northern-R'n'B. When i first heard this track it all seemed to tie in. But not got a copy, so don't know credits. Equally you could speculate on the Vashonettes "Mighty good lover", as it sounds non-Chicago. I have an interview with Dave Godin, and he was talking about this record and that it was one of his favourites. The interview was on the Searling show, i'll see if i can find it.

Used to have "Ain't love good, ain't love grand", which is a version of the Mickey Denton on Impact. Complete with sound-a-like live crowd.

The Checkmate label was Chess's Detroit arm early on. So there's a connection there too.

Martyn

[Anoraks Corner]

According to one of the Mike Terry interviews, he said that he played on "Sweeter than the day before" along with the other Funk Brothers.

Wasn't the instrumental backing track found on a Detroit acetate?

(Dave - ask GuyH about this.)

I've always loved this little Detroit-esque mid-tmepo floater...step forward Mr.Clarke:

[boba]

Dave hello. Sorry no info on sessions, references, etc. But forgot that the Celebrities backed Tony Clarke on the other side of "Landslide", which i read in some magazine. The Celebrities of Boss/Ten High labels. Also check the Johnny Williams "My baby's good", which i heard was Detroit Northern-R'n'B. When i first heard this track it all seemed to tie in. But not got a copy, so don't know credits. Equally you could speculate on the Vashonettes "Mighty good lover", as it sounds non-Chicago. I have an interview with Dave Godin, and he was talking about this record and that it was one of his favourites. The interview was on the Searling show, i'll see if i can find it.

Used to have "Ain't love good, ain't love grand", which is a version of the Mickey Denton on Impact. Complete with sound-a-like live crowd.

The Checkmate label was Chess's Detroit arm early on. So there's a connection there too.

Martyn

the vashonettes were a chicago group and chicago production though. i think it's chicago musicians too but i'm not sure. johnny williams was also in chicago at the time, not a detroit artist.

[Dave Moore]

Wasn't the instrumental backing track found on a Detroit acetate?

(Dave - ask GuyH about this.)

Yep, you're right Mr Flynn. I think it came from Ed Wulfrum's stash I think. I think the evidence, although not in stone, is building. All good stuff chaps and I thank you for your contributions. I can feel a feature coming on ....

[John Benson]

Hi Dave,

If you do a search on my posts on Soul Talk, I asked about Jo Ann Garrett and if she did any recording in Detroit for the Duo label because someone (not on here) had mentioned that she recorded there due to the numerous detroit names credited on that label.

I thought she only recorded in Chicago but decided to look more into it ask.

Anyway, more to the point I got a very interesting reply from Robb Klein, from Holland, who lived in the states for a few periods over the years - He was also involved with the Airwave label in the late 70's:

ALL Duo records' recordings were done in Chicago. Duo Records was located in Chicago. Bridges, Knight and Eaton were working more in Chicago than Detroit in the late '60s for Chicago's Ric Williams' labels (Zodiac/Aquarius/Boo/Shock). Mike Terry came to Chicago for a lot of recording sessions (for Williams and Jo Armstead's labels). ZTSC was the code for pressings at Columbia's Midwest pressing plant, with mastering in Chicago, and pressing in Terre Haute, Indiana. Despite pressing about 78% for Detroit labels in the mid to late '60s, it pressed about 20-22% Chicago area labels. Andre Williams was originally from Chicago, and had returned to Chicago in the early mid '60s to do more work there than in Detroit (although he was commuting back and forth between the 2 cities, as were McKinley Jackson, Mike Terry, Mike Hanks, Don Juan Mancha, Bridges, Knight and Eaton and several others). Also, many Detroit session players were brought to Chicago (by Mike Terry, Mike Hanks and others) to record, including many of Motown's (which is why many Chicago cuts sound like Detroit).

Jo Ann was located in Chicago and recorded all her songs there. It is true that Ric Williams had sent Bridge, Knight and Eaton to Detroit to record Ruby Andrews' "Casanova". But all the Duo cuts (Garrett, profiles, Cheryl Swope) were recorded in Chicago (as far as I know).

-----------------------------------------------

So, it's a good posibility he may know a bit more on this subject - I don't think he comes on here though, but I would be tempted to go on there and ask him.

Hope this helps

[Dave Moore]

Thanks John,

I'll give Rob a shout.

[Platters 81]

there was a small thread on SoulTalk about George Semper a while back..this was probably co-written by Walter Scott(of Bob Kuban fame) after he moved to LA...anyone know how an LA tune (?)came to be issued on Chess..with that name?...great Stafford tune

[boba]

Hi Dave,

If you do a search on my posts on Soul Talk, I asked about Jo Ann Garrett and if she did any recording in Detroit for the Duo label because someone (not on here) had mentioned that she recorded there due to the numerous detroit names credited on that label.

I thought she only recorded in Chicago but decided to look more into it ask.

Anyway, more to the point I got a very interesting reply from Robb Klein, from Holland, who lived in the states for a few periods over the years - He was also involved with the Airwave label in the late 70's:

ALL Duo records' recordings were done in Chicago. Duo Records was located in Chicago. Bridges, Knight and Eaton were working more in Chicago than Detroit in the late '60s for Chicago's Ric Williams' labels (Zodiac/Aquarius/Boo/Shock). Mike Terry came to Chicago for a lot of recording sessions (for Williams and Jo Armstead's labels). ZTSC was the code for pressings at Columbia's Midwest pressing plant, with mastering in Chicago, and pressing in Terre Haute, Indiana. Despite pressing about 78% for Detroit labels in the mid to late '60s, it pressed about 20-22% Chicago area labels. Andre Williams was originally from Chicago, and had returned to Chicago in the early mid '60s to do more work there than in Detroit (although he was commuting back and forth between the 2 cities, as were McKinley Jackson, Mike Terry, Mike Hanks, Don Juan Mancha, Bridges, Knight and Eaton and several others). Also, many Detroit session players were brought to Chicago (by Mike Terry, Mike Hanks and others) to record, including many of Motown's (which is why many Chicago cuts sound like Detroit).

Jo Ann was located in Chicago and recorded all her songs there. It is true that Ric Williams had sent Bridge, Knight and Eaton to Detroit to record Ruby Andrews' "Casanova". But all the Duo cuts (Garrett, profiles, Cheryl Swope) were recorded in Chicago (as far as I know).

-----------------------------------------------

So, it's a good posibility he may know a bit more on this subject - I don't think he comes on here though, but I would be tempted to go on there and ask him.

Hope this helps

Rob is wrong saying that all Duo records were recorded in Chicago, for example, Sheryl says the oncoming times record was recorded in new jersey. Leroy and the Drivers were an ohio group, that may have been a licensed in production. Also, some of the brothers of soul-connected Chicago records actually were recorded in Detroit, for example, ric williams sent the Chicago group the creations to detroit to work with the Brothers of Soul, the Chicago group ended up not being able to sing which is why the brothers of soul ended up singing, but it definitely happened in detroit.

[Platters 81]

CHESSMEN NOTHING BUT YOU CHESS

CHESSMEN

NOTHING BUT YOU

CHESS

 

Posted info:

ref earlier post....nice take on the "its growing" theme....

[Sunnysoul]

Surely the Chess soul question that needs answering is ...

Who was Joy Lovejoy ??? !!!

[Guest SoulRenaissance]

Surely the Chess soul question that needs answering is ...

Who was Joy Lovejoy ??? !!!

Didn't they appear at one of Kev Roberts' soul USA trips?

Martyn

[Dave Moore]

No Joy Lovejoy at Soultrip I'm afraid. The mystery continues.

I am however, working my way through some of the theories, myths and eventually some facts about the musicians, locations and the relationship between the sound ofDetroit and the Chess label. Couple of people to track down and speak to, but the evidence is building. I'll be back when I've got some corroborative info.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Dave Moore