Bbc4 Motown Night - Legends The Motown Invasion

[Guest]

During BBC4's Motown Night " The Legends / The Motown Invasion " section , can someone explain , that when the mention of DAVE GODIN's part in the establising of Motown in the UK , it showed a picture of an unknown - at least to me - chap , leading the viewers of the programme to assume it was Dave .......

If Dave had been around to have seen the programme , I know he would have been greatly offended .

Malc Burton

[paup-ine]

During BBC4's Motown Night " The Legends / The Motown Invasion " section , can someone explain , that when the mention of DAVE GODIN's part in the establising of Motown in the UK , it showed a picture of an unknown - at least to me - chap , leading the viewers of the programme to assume it was Dave .......

If Dave had been around to have seen the programme , I know he would have been greatly offended .

Malc Burton

Havn't got a clue Malc. Could be the same research person who put up Jocky Wilson's picture on TOTP when Jackie Wilson was on!!

P

[Mattbolton]

Havn't got a clue Malc. Could be the same research person who put up Jocky Wilson's picture on TOTP when Jackie Wilson was on!!

P

I had the same thought. Although I never knew him during the 60's I was certian he didn't look like a devilish brick shit house back then. Though I've just googled some pictures of him from the wheel and it looks a lot more similar to that chap than I thought. Still not certain it is though.

[Epic]

Thought the review of the Motown tour was good - TOTP videos left me cold I'm afraid - thought the guy (Tony Hall - old DJ) who said Stevie Wonder was "blindingly brilliant" might look back at that & cringe.

Frankie Valli - "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" - was that a Motown record ?

[Guest johnm]

Thought the review of the Motown tour was good - TOTP videos left me cold I'm afraid - thought the guy (Tony Hall - old DJ) who said Stevie Wonder was "blindingly brilliant" might look back at that & cringe.

Frankie Valli - "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" - was that a Motown record ?

according to the captions it was...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hq...own_at_the_BBC/

Edited February 21, 2009 by johnm

[45cellar]

according to the captions it was...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hq...own_at_the_BBC/

Philips Records

Frankie Valli

Bob Crewe / Bob Gaudio

[Liamgp]

I met a BBC researcher once, who, although a very nice young lady, had no clue about anything beyond what she had read in Heat magazine (who I was doing some freelance work at the time - to my shame...). I started talking about James Brown's TAMI show performance to someone and she immediately came over and said: "He's the guy that edits Loaded magazine isn't he - has he become a singer now?"

[Becket]

Loved all the home movie clips of the UK Motortown Revue on the tour bus and at the venues. Shame they couldn't have shown a bit more.

Also, When I'm Gone - Brenda Holloway [which was played as the run-out / credits] : this was a different version to the one I have on TMG508. Anyone care to comment on this - I suppose many takes took place when recorded in '65 ?

You tend to see the same old BBC TV clips over and over again on all these progs. They must have recorded more than just Baby Love & Uptight which always seem to figure {I know..... and one or two more !}

All in all I thought this 1 hour show was interesting and held my attention from start to finish - so well done there BBC 4.

Cheers.............. Tom. Banbury.

[Guest]

Is it being repeated?.....I missed the smegger!

[Bigsoulman]

Is it being repeated?.....I missed the smegger!

You'll get it on the BBC iPlayer would think Steve

Lenny

[Winsford Soul]

Loved all the home movie clips of the UK Motortown Revue on the tour bus and at the venues. Shame they couldn't have shown a bit more.

Also, When I'm Gone - Brenda Holloway [which was played as the run-out / credits] : this was a different version to the one I have on TMG508. Anyone care to comment on this - I suppose many takes took place when recorded in '65 ?

You tend to see the same old BBC TV clips over and over again on all these progs. They must have recorded more than just Baby Love & Uptight which always seem to figure {I know..... and one or two more !}

All in all I thought this 1 hour show was interesting and held my attention from start to finish - so well done there BBC 4.

Cheers.............. Tom. Banbury.

Didnt even get up to make a brew during the show then i sat through the Standing in the shadows of Motown film also without moving.of my arse. Superb television such a travesty that it took so long for the Funk Bros to get the recognition that they so deserve. Loved it.

Steve

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Also, When I'm Gone - Brenda Holloway [which was played as the run-out / credits] : this was a different version to the one I have on TMG508. Anyone care to comment on this - I suppose many takes took place when recorded in '65 ?

You tend to see the same old BBC TV clips over and over again on all these progs. They must have recorded more than just Baby Love & Uptight which always seem to figure {I know..... and one or two more !}

"When I'm Gone" that was played was Mary Wells' original version which was supposed to be her follow up to "My Guy" and which was withheld (until it appeared on a 1966 LP) when she quit Motown abruptly to join 20th Century Fox.

The reason that 'you tend to see the same old BBCTV clips over and over' is that these are the only clips they have. It's well known that they only have a couple of complete 1960s editions of TOTP, and the only reason that they have as many vinatge clips from that show as they do have is that one of the TOTP camaramen also had his own sophisticated camera at home and could (and did) 'rotoscope' various TOTPs from his TV set. Unfortunatlely he was not a soul fan so black artists who appeared on TOTP then are not so well represented in their meagre archive. I'd love to see Stevie Wonder's TOTP appearance for I'm Wondering' where he got so carried away with his lip synching that he almost fell off the stage, but it's gone forever.

They do not have any other clips of "Baby Love" or "Uptight"....

And for Malc - and I could be wrong about this, mate - I think that the guy who was holding Mary Wilson in the pic that came up when Michael Critchley was talking about Dave is Peter Prince, who was Motown's first UK label manager to the best of my recollection. But like I said, I could be wrong....

I don't think Dave would have been offended. Mostly because, if he had been around, he would surely have been in it!

Edited February 21, 2009 by TONY ROUNCE

[Jim Elliott]

I always thought that Dave G advised AGAINST bringing the tour over at that time.

One of the most influential and passionate black music pioneers we've all known given a cursory mention. Who it has to be asked, are these researchers?

The picture cock up defies comprehension.

Perhaps it's just as well 'they'll' never get it right.

Oh well.

Jim

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

...A penchant for pedantry compels me to point out that the venue in Birmingham that they showed in the vintage footage was, in fact, the New Victoria Theatre, just by the side of London Victoria station, and the footage of the Astoria was actually of the Brixton Astoria (now the Academy) and not of Finsbury Park Astoria (later the Rainbow...). Neither venue featured in the itinerary of the 1965 tour...

Edited February 21, 2009 by TONY ROUNCE

[slimharpo]

...A penchant for pedantry compels me to point out that the venue in Birmingham that they showed in the vintage footage was, in fact, the New Victoria Theatre, just by the side of London Victoria station, and the footage of the Astoria was actually of the Brixton Astoria (now the Academy) and not of Finsbury Park Astoria (later the Rainbow...). Neither venue featured in the itinerary of the 1965 tour...

I was at the ABC Chester show. I lived in a village outside Wrexham that musically was just coming to terms with Bill Haley but I had bought a few TM 45s that I heard on Radio Luxemburg or if I recognised that a new release was a Moeown artist. I had no money, neither did my mate so we bought cheap seats & had enough for a programme (which I still have). We noticed there was hardly anyone there (later estimated at 200!) However, someone came out and asked us to move to the front to help provide more atmosphere. There we saw Soul Sam who was with a bunch of guys I also knew who were a group called The Silverstones (they won Opportunity Knocks 6 times - The X Factor of the day!). Even with the small audience the stars gave their all. Martha opened the show with Nowhere To Run and blasted the place apart for starters!Clarence Paul sang a duet with Stevie - The Masquerade Is Over off one of his LP's. Smokey was on his knees doing Ooh Baby Baby. Georgie fame was OK too. But I have to say The Supremes were stunning much to my surprise. I'm sure that when introducing a song Diana pointed at me and said ' This Is Especially For You' but my mate was convinced she pointed at him! I think every bloke there thought the same. There was no transport home to Wrexham at that time so my mate and I started walking and hitching with no success until Sam & the group came along and we squeezed in the back of their station wagon with their band equipment. Apparently Sam & the group had been backstage to meet the artists.

The previous year I had seen Charlie & Inez Foxx at the ABC Chester with The Rolling Stones and I have to say that Charlie & Inez are one of my best Live Soul Memories particularly Charlie carrying Inez (who was wearing a VERY tight fitting gold lame dress) offstage while she was lying backwards on his shoulder singing Mockingbird! I have to own up and say that despite my prejudices about The Stones before the show, they were great. I told Keith Richards this (name dropping) when I met him at a small bar in Greenwich Village in 1981 when another mate Rob Hughes (formerly of ACE) and myself went to see Etta James. He remembered the show and we had a good chat about it. He came across as genuinely 'one of the lads'.

[Guest MBarrett]

Clarence Paul sang a duet with Stevie - The Masquerade Is Over off one of his LP's.

They rushed out a live L.P. of the Paris concert - which was on TML11007.

I got it on CD in a box set of 4 Motortown Revue concerts.

The duet between Clarence Paul and Stevie Wonder on there is ""Funny How Time Slips Away".

Their voices complement each other beautifully.

I think my favourite track on the album.

MB

Edited February 21, 2009 by MBarrett

[PS-Soul]

Is it being repeated?.....I missed the smegger!

For any one who missed it it's all on again tonight on BBC4 starting at 10pm.

Paul

[slimharpo]

They rushed out a live L.P. of the Paris concert - which was on TML11007.

I got it on CD in a box set of 4 Motortown Revue concerts.

The duet between Clarence Paul and Stevie Wonder on there is ""Funny How Time Slips Away".

Their voices complement each other beautifully.

I think my favourite track on the album.

MB

The Masquerade Is Over is either on the Fingertips or the Little Stevie sings Uncle Ray albums which came out on Oriole and both of which I had at the time. Although he sings this song solo on the album. This is definitely the song they sang at Chester!

[Guest MBarrett]

The Masquerade Is Over is either on the Fingertips or the Little Stevie sings Uncle Ray albums which came out on Oriole and both of which I had at the time. Although he sings this song solo on the album. This is definitely the song they sang at Chester!

Slim

Quite likely they played around with the itinerary for the Paris concert - knowing that it was being recorded for an album.

Either tomorrow or later in the week I shall be going to the "Supremes costumes" exhibition that just opened in Birmingham today.

I'm hoping they will have one of those little red numbers that I believe they wore throughout this tour. Certainly they did on the RSG special.

I'm very jealous of the memories you must have.

Although it is always stressed that the concerts were not well attended, for me this tour has an iconic place in music history.

MB

[Tabs]

If its the red dresses I'm thinking about they certainly had them on display at the V&A in London.

Slim

Quite likely they played around with the itinerary for the Paris concert - knowing that it was being recorded for an album.

Either tomorrow or later in the week I shall be going to the "Supremes costumes" exhibition that just opened in Birmingham today.

I'm hoping they will have one of those little red numbers that I believe they wore throughout this tour. Certainly they did on the RSG special.

I'm very jealous of the memories you must have.

Although it is always stressed that the concerts were not well attended, for me this tour has an iconic place in music history.

MB

[TOAD]

exhibition that just opened in Birmingham today.

WHERE IN BIRMINGHAM

ANY INFO PLEASE

T

[Tabs]

Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery.

If it's the same exhibition as London then well worth visiting.

exhibition that just opened in Birmingham today.

WHERE IN BIRMINGHAM

ANY INFO PLEASE

T

[Guest MBarrett]

Yes - it's the original V & A exhibition gone out on the road.

Click here for details.

MB

Edited February 22, 2009 by MBarrett

[TOAD]

Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery.

If it's the same exhibition as London then well worth visiting.

THANKS

[Guest mel brat]

I always thought that Dave G advised AGAINST bringing the tour over at that time.

One of the most influential and passionate black music pioneers we've all known given a cursory mention. Who it has to be asked, are these researchers?

The picture cock up defies comprehension.

Perhaps it's just as well 'they'll' never get it right.

Jim

The BBC have had 50 years to get their act together yet even now cannot produce an accurate and informed tribute to Motown records - let alone on the wider impact of Soul music in the UK.

The representation and promotion of Soul music is NOT safe in the hands of the BBC, and is never likely to be. When faced with a subject not readily available on Wikipedia, their researchers are inevitably exposed as incompetent and incapable of even the most basic levels of accuracy.

If anything "Motown At The BBC" exposed just how LITTLE the BBC did for Motown and Soul music in the UK. Even I was shocked at the lame quality of clips they were able to rustle together. If the BBC want to crow, let's have details of exactly how many radio spins the BBC gave to Motown records by Gladys Knight & The Pips, Brenda Holloway, The Originals and the Contours, (let alone other Soul acts) BEFORE 1970/71.

Regarding the so-called 'Dave Godin' photo, I felt the same as most people. It didn't look at all like him to me. I mean, the guy was holding a woman aloft in his arms... and even in his younger days it just doesn't seem like something Dave Godin would DO! If it was indeed he, where were his glasses?

However, the MAJOR thing I objected to was Dave Godin getting the blame for the poor attendance at the Motown tour. Dave's own account was that he advised Berry Gordy AGAINST the tour, but was ignored in the rush of enthusiasm. I know who I believe.

Not for the first time, Dave's treatment has been shabby to say the least.

Apart from that, the second two programmes were fine, "Standing.." particularly.

Edited February 22, 2009 by mel brat

[slimharpo]

Slim

Quite likely they played around with the itinerary for the Paris concert - knowing that it was being recorded for an album.

Either tomorrow or later in the week I shall be going to the "Supremes costumes" exhibition that just opened in Birmingham today.

I'm hoping they will have one of those little red numbers that I believe they wore throughout this tour. Certainly they did on the RSG special.

I'm very jealous of the memories you must have.

Although it is always stressed that the concerts were not well attended, for me this tour has an iconic place in music history.

MB

Here's a photo of the Motown Tour Programme. It is signed by all Martha & the original Vandellas from when they were on tour here in '82. Martha writes referring to the programme ' We were touring for the first time in England. What a blessing' (I don't think she was being sarcastic!).

And an autographed flyer from the Etta James show. Other signatures are by Bonnie Rait who did a number with Etta and Joe Jackson who we bumped into at the bar on the way out. Keith Richard signed another flyer that I put on my wall. Unfortunately that was in an ink that faded before I realised it.

[Steve Plumb]

imho the Motown invasion show was generally excellent (except the Dave Godin pic cock up). I found it really interesting regardless of who was to blame for poor attendance etc.

BUT Motown at the BBC was a fucking shambles imho.

1) Bad info - I'm sure i heard them say Gladys' version of IHITTG was Motown's biggest seller 'surely' they mixed that up with MG's version? And the wasted clip of GK in her middle of the road Buddah years instead of her brill Motown years!

2) Bad info - Frankie Valli #2 1975 with 'Can't get my eyes' - what? And wasting a clip by showing FV singing it too!

3) Wasted clips of showing clips years later of Four Tops, Jimmy Ruffin doing hits from 5 years before etc. Original footage would have been better surely?

4) Really terrible examples of dodgy Motown music clips from Lionel Ritchie, Diana Ross etc - Surely they could have found better records from these artists

5) Oops!

Didn't mind the Boys 2 Men, Erikha Badu etc BUT some of the later stuff was weak imho

Should we have to put up with this sub-standard rubbish that looked like it had been thrown together quickly by someone who had no idea what they were doing? Surely we deserved better than this?

Rant over

Edited February 23, 2009 by Steve Plumb

[Oldfeet]

The first hour on Friday night was so poor

In fact it was such an embarrassment it drove me to complain to the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/

Maybe one day the BBC might even take notice of the complaints

[Madmandy]

I'm afraid I hated the TOTP coverage of motown it seemed to just want to say ...hey we had all these motown performers on our show

And from what I saw they were all miming ! WHY?????

Standing in the shadows of motown (seen before) was brilliant

altho I didnt like those who were doing the covers ...Bootsy collins ( Looks like a pimp) yuk

I did however like Bens (last name escapes me) attempt

I'm not one for covers really ...IF IT AINT BROKEN ...DON'T FIX IT!!!!!

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I'm afraid I hated the TOTP coverage of motown it seemed to just want to say ...hey we had all these motown performers on our show

And from what I saw they were all miming ! WHY?????

Most artists mimed on TOTP until the late 60s/early 70s. It was 'standard industry practice', as they say. It was only really in the early 70s that artists were required to sing and play live, or at least sing live to a pre-recorded backing track.

Ready Steady Go was the same in its early days, but it did change over to a live format in 1964 or 1965 and even the show's name changed to "Ready Steady Goes Live"!

Several of the clips on "Motown At the BBC" were not BBC-originated clips, by the way, just bits that they probably got from US or European TV ("Ain't That Peculiar", for instance).

[Guest MBarrett]

Here's a photo of the Motown Tour Programme. It is signed by all Martha & the original Vandellas from when they were on tour here in '82. Martha writes referring to the programme ' We were touring for the first time in England. What a blessing' (I don't think she was being sarcastic!).

Slim

Really interested to see your concert programme. I saw one of these go on eBay a while back with signatures of most of the artists. It went way beyond my price range.

I have attached scan from contemporary TV mag showing the original transmission of the "Sound(s) of Motown programme.

Although a sort of RSG Special it went out at 9.40 on a Wednesday night. (28th April 1965)

I have some other stuff here:

Copies of New Musical Express

Copy of Fabulous magazine

Copy of Record Mirror

with info/reports of the tour.

Would love to swap copies for copies of the inside pages of your programme.

If you are interested send me your postal address through the Personal Mail system.

MB

Edited February 22, 2009 by MBarrett

[Guest Darks]

However, the MAJOR thing I objected to was Dave Godin getting the blame for the poor attendance at the Motown tour. Dave's own account was that he advised Berry Gordy AGAINST the tour, but was ignored in the rush of enthusiasm. I know who I believe.

Not for the first time, Dave's treatment has been shabby to say the least.

Apart from that, the second two programmes were fine, "Standing.." particularly.

Agreed. I nearly threw an empty bottle of light ale at the telly.

I always understood that Dave advised Gordy to proceed with caution and even if Dave was exagerating about fan club numbers, which I find hard to accept, so what. I doubt whether someone with the business acumen of Berry Gordy would have proceeded with such an ambitious tour on that point alone. There were clearly other factors.

That said, I enjoyed it overall, specifically the Martha Reeves Guiness confession.

Regards Alan

[Guest mel brat]

Article from Melody Maker:

Edited February 22, 2009 by mel brat

[Guest MBarrett]

Article from Melody Maker:

Mel

Interesting article - must be from early Feb 1964 - but quite a bit of speculation in there that never occured.

i.e. neither of these mooted tours actually took place.

As far as I know the only Motown visits to the U.K. in 1964 were as follows:

Mary Wells supported the Beatles on their tour during October/November.

Supremes and Marvin Gaye made promotional visits but did not tour.

But interesting that they were anticipating the Motown Revue coming to the U.K. more than a year before it actually happened.

If I got anything wrong here somebody please put me straight.

MB

[Steve Plumb]

oops!

Edited February 23, 2009 by Steve Plumb

[Guest Rich]

Regarding the so-called 'Dave Godin' photo, I felt the same as most people. It didn't look at all like him to me. I mean, the guy was holding a woman aloft in his arms... and even in his younger days it just doesn't seem like something Dave Godin would DO! If it was indeed he, where were his glasses?

However, the MAJOR thing I objected to was Dave Godin getting the blame for the poor attendance at the Motown tour. Dave's own account was that he advised Berry Gordy AGAINST the tour, but was ignored in the rush of enthusiasm. I know who I believe.

Not for the first time, Dave's treatment has been shabby to say the least.

Apart from that, the second two programmes were fine, "Standing.." particularly.

The programme I watched Sat night I thought was a decent piece of light entertainment - I'd had a few and was pretty mellow after a good day in Nottingham.

Actually the Godin bit confirmed what I've read in a couple of books - Raynoma, Berry and Me, is one if I remember correctly, was actually scathing about Gordy's business acumen and talks about the bad advice he was given from various quarters, which he often took and ignored those close to him. She did quote Godin in the book as one who she thought did mislead Gordy on the subject of overseas tours, at the behest of those around him in Detroit. So it's obviously out there if researchers want to use such info. Personally, I'm not going to die in a ditch of who's right and wrong - I don't really care, and in the great scheme of things, its all background noise in 'The Motown Story' as a whole. As they say, it's in the groove what counts.

[Guest mel brat]

Personally, I'm not going to die in a ditch of who's right and wrong - I don't really care, and in the great scheme of things, its all background noise in 'The Motown Story' as a whole. As they say, it's in the groove what counts.

Nice that you can afford such a laid back attitude to the events in question - but then it's not your reputation that's being effectively libeled is it? I think we have the right to query whether what is presented to posterity is a true version of events or just convenient propaganda.

Edited February 22, 2009 by mel brat

[Guest mel brat]

Mel

Interesting article - must be from early Feb 1964 - but quite a bit of speculation in there that never occured.

i.e. neither of these mooted tours actually took place.

As far as I know the only Motown visits to the U.K. in 1964 were as follows:

Mary Wells supported the Beatles on their tour during October/November.

Supremes and Marvin Gaye made promotional visits but did not tour.

But interesting that they were anticipating the Motown Revue coming to the U.K. more than a year before it actually happened.

If I got anything wrong here somebody please put me straight.

MB

I have no idea! - but the Melody Maker in question was dated April 4th 1964.

Edited February 22, 2009 by mel brat

[Guest MBarrett]

There is no doubt that the tour was poorly attended - even Mary Wilson described it as the Ghost Tour.

One thing that has always surprised me is that the tour promotion was no amateur affair but in the supposedly safe hands of Arthur Howes. His name crops up all over the place - most significantly as the promoter of the Beatles U.K. tours but many more names besides. He was later the promoter for the first Stax tour of the U.K. in 1967.

Here is some interesting info. written by Malcolm Cook who worked for Arthur Howes.

In August (1963), I was approached by impresario Arthur Howes and invited to join him as Company Tour Manager. During my three year association with Arthur Howes, I toured with most of the noted artistes of the Merseybeat era: Gerry & The Pacemakers, Billy J Kramer & The Dakotas, The Remo 4, The Fourmost, Tommy Quickly, The Dennisons, Swinging Blue Jeans, The Searchers, The Chants, The Escorts, The Mojos and of course Cilla Black.

During my second tour for Arthur, Brian Epstein invited me to join NEMS as his right-hand man and oversee his day-to-day activities as well as his artistes touring commitments. I declined Brian's offer and stayed with Arthur Howes.

Among the other artistes I toured with were Helen Shapiro, Tommy Roe, Bobby Rydell, Gene Pitney, The Ronettes, The Tremeloes, Bill Black Combo, The Kinks, The Spotniks, Marianne Faithfull, Dave Clark Five, The Hollies, The Searchers, Del Shannon, Ben E King, Jackie de Shannon, Mark Wynter, Ronnie Dyson, Kim Weston, Lulu also comedians Jimmy Tarbuck, Bryan Burden, Billy Burdon and Ted Rodgers.

I was appointed Tour Manager for the first Tamla Motown Revue to visit the UK in 1965. The show featured the original Supremes (Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard), Stevie Wonder, Martha & The Vandellas, Smokey Robinson & The Miracles, and special guest Georgie Fame & The Blue Flames.

I was instrumental in Arthur Howes granting a somewhat unknown Welsh crooner called Tom Jones his first major concert appearance, on a Sunday concert at The Embassy in Peterborough. The show starred Gerry & the Pacemakers and The Kinks.

The point I am making is that if anyone could be expected to get the marketing and publicity right you would have thought that Howes was the man.

I suppose we'll just never know??!!

MB

Edited February 22, 2009 by MBarrett

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Whether Dave advised in favour or against this tour, Gordy would have realised how well it was (or wasn't) going to fare from the sales of Stateside and Oriole releases, which were mostly mediocre and, in some cases, quite poor. He's a businessman, it's very unlikely that he would have taken the word of one lone enthusiast as to the alleged popularity of his label and artists.

Having been privy to some sales figures many years ago, I was gosmacked to find that some releases barely scraped 500 and many sold even less. Now, if only a maximum of 500 people bought something like the Miracles' "The Man In You" across the whole of the UK, it figures that - even by the time of the launch of TM as a logo - there would not have been that many more dedicated fans on hand to witness the shows.

Judging by the itinerary, there would have been too many shows, too. No tour today would play Liverpool, Manchester and Chester, for instance. If they'd only done five shows in, say, London, Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester and Glasgow, the attendances would have been respectable, as people would have made the effort to travel - no matter how difficult it was back then. The tour simply spread itself too thin. Few acts other than the Beatles and the Rolling Stones would have filled that many venues, over that many shows.

My feeling is that it was all a little too much, too soon. After all, most of the acts on the tour came back to the UK within a couple of years and played smaller individual tours to decent sized crowds...

[paup-ine]

Whether Dave advised in favour or against this tour, Gordy would have realised how well it was (or wasn't) going to fare from the sales of Stateside and Oriole releases, which were mostly mediocre and, in some cases, quite poor. He's a businessman, it's very unlikely that he would have taken the word of one lone enthusiast as to the alleged popularity of his label and artists.

Having been privy to some sales figures many years ago, I was gosmacked to find that some releases barely scraped 500 and many sold even less. Now, if only a maximum of 500 people bought something like the Miracles' "The Man In You" across the whole of the UK, it figures that - even by the time of the launch of TM as a logo - there would not have been that many more dedicated fans on hand to witness the shows.

Judging by the itinerary, there would have been too many shows, too. No tour today would play Liverpool, Manchester and Chester, for instance. If they'd only done five shows in, say, London, Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester and Glasgow, the attendances would have been respectable, as people would have made the effort to travel - no matter how difficult it was back then. The tour simply spread itself too thin. Few acts other than the Beatles and the Rolling Stones would have filled that many venues, over that many shows.

My feeling is that it was all a little too much, too soon. After all, most of the acts on the tour came back to the UK within a couple of years and played smaller individual tours to decent sized crowds...

I appreciate what you are saying, Tome, but if the groups were relatively unknown to a lot of the UK, maybe the extra dates were added to make it easier for more people to attend. Long travelling distences may be off putting to see acts who were relatively unknown to some in them days, maybe?

I always thought UK TM were issued thick & fast and they were relatively easy to come by?

P

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I appreciate what you are saying, Tome, but if the groups were relatively unknown to a lot of the UK, maybe the extra dates were added to make it easier for more people to attend. Long travelling distences may be off putting to see acts who were relatively unknown to some in them days, maybe?

I always thought UK TM were issued thick & fast and they were relatively easy to come by?

P

That's excatly the point I thought I was making, Paulime

Despite the fact that "Baby Love" had been to Number One by the time of this tour, there was still very little 'passing trade' for the majority of Motown acts, and the only other one who'd had a hit of any signficance here besides the Supremes was Mary Wells, who wasn't on the tour as she'd left the Motown by that time. It was still largely a 'specialist music' in the eyes of people who were buying the pop of the day. The Temptations had had no UK hits at the time, nor had Stevie Wonder or the Miracles. "Dancing In The Street" had grazed the charts, but that's all it did. A lot of the acts would have been completely unknown to the majority of people - which is precisely why they added Georgie Fame (who'd had a # 1) in the hope of getting a few more bums on seats.

If they had played less shows, I really believe that most of those people who would have been seriously interested in seeing the tour would have

1) made the extra effort to travel and

2) made for bigger crowds at fewer venues.

This was a big tour, even by the accepted 'Package Tour' standards of the day. Far too big for a bunch of acts who were not yet 'proven' to the masses.

That only three of the many London, Fontana, Oriole and Stateside Motown releases had made the official UK Top 20, over a period of 5 years, shows just how little the label and its identity then meant to the average punter and how little incentive there was for the average punter to attend these shows...

Edited February 23, 2009 by TONY ROUNCE

[Jerry Hipkiss]

5) Bad info - Edwin Starr had a backing band who he discovered called Rose Royce!!!! Think our intrepid reporter googled 'war' and got Edwin & Norman Whitfield mixed up!!!!

Good rant Steve, but this bit is actually true - they were his backing band on a UK tour and in an interview in either Black Echoes or B & S he said something like "...their name is Rose Royce and they're going to be big" or something similar.

[Steve Plumb]

Good rant Steve, but this bit is actually true - they were his backing band on a UK tour and in an interview in either Black Echoes or B & S he said something like "...their name is Rose Royce and they're going to be big" or something similar.

Hee Hee, I should have googled 'Edwin Starr/War' meself then

I'm not apologising, I might sneakily remove point #5 though

I was so mad by then I was questioning everything they said

Edited February 23, 2009 by Steve Plumb

[Jerry Hipkiss]

Hee Hee, I should have googled 'Edwin Starr/War' meself then

I'm not apologising, I might sneakily remove point #5 though

I was so mad by then I was questioning everything they said

Understandable...

[Dave Moore]

Maybe the template of the US based tours was used. Rolling Reviews, different town every night, matinees and evenings were succesful Stateside and perhaps Gordy thought a repeat of that would work in UK. I agree though it's strange that Howes and his partner who you would thought 'have had a finger on the pulse' put on such a packed tour at that stage of the game.

The other point is that maybe Gordy knew his company had a foot in the door but needed a catalyst to puch it wide open and he saw this tour as that opportunity?

I don't suppose we'll ever get the real story now. If you were to ask Berry himself I'd wager he would claim it was a fantastic success and as usuals HIS strategy worked 100%!

[Guest Karen Heath]

I started watching this but was disappointed with the calibre of songs-I kept saying, "just one more before we turn over-it might be a good one" but conceded defeat with Lionel Richie. We turned it off.

I wish I watched the rest of it now-didn't realise it was going to be controversial-it would have made it more interesting!

[Philb]

I was amazed at the lack of health an safety at the RSG Motown Special, who's idea was it to put a blind man on a 2 metre high platform with no handrail.

[Steve G]

Surprised you guys are all surprised by the non surprising lack of accurate research by the Beeb.

Most researchers that are employed have no passion or knowledge of the subject they are researching, they just research for a living and a paycheck. Most are just googling things anyway these days. And there's an awful lot of misinformation on the internet. As you know another one of my passions is Brit film and TV (and actresses ) and the nonesense that gets written about those topics on reputable databases is equally shocking.

I guess at the end of the day we're all secret anaroks when it comes to Motown because we are passionate about the music. I guess it would help if the Beeb sourced some resources that knew a little about the subject......Steve

Edited February 23, 2009 by Steve G

[paup-ine]

Maybe the template of the US based tours was used. Rolling Reviews, different town every night, matinees and evenings were succesful Stateside and perhaps Gordy thought a repeat of that would work in UK. I agree though it's strange that Howes and his partner who you would thought 'have had a finger on the pulse' put on such a packed tour at that stage of the game.

The other point is that maybe Gordy knew his company had a foot in the door but needed a catalyst to puch it wide open and he saw this tour as that opportunity?

I don't suppose we'll ever get the real story now. If you were to ask Berry himself I'd wager he would claim it was a fantastic success and as usuals HIS strategy worked 100%!

Good business men never admit they are wrong, however he did admit he was wrong about Marvin Gaye"!

P