Soul Deep 2

[Mike]

caught the second episode over the weekend

found it both enjoyable and interesting meself and thought done very well

any views from out there?

[Simsy]

I thought it was great. Interesting listening to Solomon Burke talking about the inspiration behind 'Everybody needs somebody'. Sam Cooke's brother looks like him. Wonder what gems Sam would have come up with had he not been gunned down

[TheBigO]

Caught the show and again another great episode. Hopefully this will be released as a DVD (visit the BBC website and post a notice on the chat board please - link elsewhere in this site) Then flicked over to BBC4 and caught the great Mahalia Jackson live from 1964, one of my fave Gospel singers. Quality throughout the evening from the Beeb.

[FrankM]

Caught the show and again another great episode. Hopefully this will be released as a DVD (visit the BBC website and post a notice on the chat board please - link elsewhere in this site)

link

Too many Rights issues involved here apparently. The dreaded ABCKO own the SAR catalogue and protect it very carefully.

[Guest Jamie]

Does anyone know if the show gets repeated through the week? Say on BBC3 or 4 for example????

I've missed both so far

Jamie

[Guest Richard Bergman]

caught  the second episode over the weekend

found it  both enjoyable and interesting meself and thought done very well

any views from out there?

link

Some great footage I'm a big gospel fan so found the Staples Singers part very interesting

My first meeting with Sam Cooke came as a kid on a school trip I was about 13or 14 and on leaving the house just picked up a tape didnt know what was on it , put my headphones on and it was Sam this was the first time I'd heard him , so I feigned illness so I could stay on the coach by myself and listen to the whole of the tape in amazement - GENUIS

[Guest hammy]

Mike

I've really enjoyed it.

I like how the show is putting the music in context with the times. It's a great piece of oral history - maybe should be seen as a historical piece of television more than a musical one.

Footage is excellent - totally agree.

Hammy

[Guest]

caught  the second episode over the weekend

found it  both enjoyable and interesting meself and thought done very well

any views from out there?

link

As a saddo that is stuck in on a Sat night for a few weeks this series brightens up an otherwise dreadfull nights viewing.

Really great and Sam Cookes voice still gives you goose bumps.

[Guest katep]

Does anyone know if the show gets repeated through the week? Say on BBC3 or 4 for example????

I've missed both so far

Jamie

link

Poor Jamiecakes

Don't worry, I've got them taped so if I can get them copied I'll get them to you somehow.

[Guest]

caught  the second episode over the weekend

found it  both enjoyable and interesting meself and thought done very well

any views from out there?

link

Has this been on before, as I'm sure I remember seeing the Sam Cooke one ?

[Pete S]

I'm enjoying this series. It's teaching me a lot I didn't know before. "The Gospel Highway"...fantastic stuff

[Citizen P]

Yeah, all good stuff so far.

Looking forward to Saturday.

Standing in the Shadows

Tony

[simonb]

The Gospel footage on The Sam Cooke episode blew my mind!!! WOW!

[Soulsmith]

Tuned in half way through & caught the Rolling Stones doing a cover version.

I mean how tricky is it?..........filling up a show about soul music using black people!

The BBC just couldn't handle it.

Col.

[simonb]

Tuned in half way through & caught the Rolling Stones doing a cover version.

I mean how tricky is it?..........filling up a show about soul music using black people!

The BBC just couldn't handle it.

Col.

link

I think you missed the point.

Its funny how we all look at it through rose tinted glasses. When all most of these guys wanted to do was make money and break away from a preset destiny!

[Simsy]

Has this been on before, as I'm sure I remember seeing the Sam Cooke one  ?

link

No it's a new series. But I've seen some similar footage before with his brother speaking etc. Think this was also on BBC not long ago remember missing the start and taping the rest.

[Soulsmith]

I think you missed the point.

Its funny how we all look at it through rose tinted glasses. When all most of these guys wanted to do was make money and break away from a preset destiny!

link

Oh did I?

Or did the producers of the show stick in 3 mins of the Rolling Stones to make the show more palatable for white people?

I think I appreciate how tough it was for black performers in the 60s. But when it comes to showing a concert/performance, it should have been a show case for black artists.

Col.

[Mike]

Oh did I?

Or did the producers of the show stick in 3 mins of the Rolling Stones to make the show more palatable for white people?

I think I appreciate how tough it was for black performers in the 60s. But when it comes to showing a concert/performance, it should have been a show case for black artists.

Col.

link

you serious ???

thought it was obvious why they showed that clip

[Guest ciarraÃĮ’Ã"š­bhoy]

Has this been on before, as I'm sure I remember seeing the Sam Cooke one  ?

link

There was a late night BBC3 or 4 programme a while back called, I think, The Sam Cooke Story. A lot of the same footage that was on Saturday's episode was shown.

[Soulsmith]

you serious ???

thought it was obvious why they showed that clip

link

Always

[FrankM]

There was a late night BBC3 or 4 programme a while back called, I think, The Sam Cooke Story. A lot of the same footage that was on Saturday's episode was shown.

link

BBC 4 10pm: Sam Cooke: Legend

A documentary exploring his career and personal life, from his gospel roots to his untimely demise, and everything in between. Featuring interviews with Bobby Womack and Aretha Franklin, and narrated by Jools Holland. on New year's eve. No wonder I missed it.

[Guest miff]

Enjoyed the show found it very intresting, I may of mised this bit but can someone tell why the woman that shot him, did it and what happend to her ?

[Guest Karen Heath]

Tuned in half way through & caught the Rolling Stones doing a cover version.

I mean how tricky is it?..........filling up a show about soul music using black people!

The BBC just couldn't handle it.

Col.

link

I thought that the point they were making was that the festering racism at that time made the song more palatable to a white audience. The Rolling Stones were able to make a hit out of the Womack penned "It's all over now" where the Valentinos couldn't.

It simply highlighted the irony that enabled the song to become acceptable when performed by white boys.

[Garethx]

On a slightly more anorak-like note was the version of "Rome Wasn't Built In A Day" by Johnnie Taylor as featured a later re-recording on Stax? It sounded later than the Sar version. Was this ever released on Stax?

[Guest]

I thought that the point they were making was that the festering racism at that time made the song more palatable to a white audience. The Rolling Stones were able to make a hit out of the Womack penned "It's all over now" where the Valentinos couldn't.

It simply highlighted the irony that enabled the song to become acceptable when performed by white boys.

link

I agree with you Karen on that

[Guest Buey]

I'd also agree with Karen and having talked to the producer (god what DO I sound like) know thats exactly his point. Its a fantastic show, thought the Ray charles interview from show 1 was pretty definitive also. Apparently there's all sorts of contractual reasons why Sam cooke had a show kind of on his own, this is also the reason that the BBC was restricted in the footage that they could use. Thus the repeated stuff from the BBC3 version...

[Gene-r]

Enjoyed the show found it very intresting, I may of mised this bit but can someone tell why the woman that shot him, did it and what happend to her ?

link

The details on the programme were vague with regard to this, but the story that has come to light is as follows (NOTE: NOT ALL OF THIS WAS COVERED IN SOUL DEEP):

Sam Cooke was out drinking with friends one night, and went back to a motel with a girl who was waiting for him in the bar. It appears they spent the night together, and when he woke the next morning, she was gone. He also noticed that she had robbed his wallet and other valuables. At this point, he confronted the receptionist and hotel owner and demanded to know who the woman was, and where she had gone. what followed next is a mystery, but the owner of the hotel shot Cooke 30 times, claiming self-defence. Can't remember if she was acquitted or what.

It's not known if the woman who Cooke had spent the night with was known to him or, as some believe, a prostitute.

It's further unfortunate that the rumour originally circulating about his death (at least until the late '70s) was that he was shot by the hotel maid he had tried to rape. Of course, this was proved untrue by the series of events above.

Gene

[Guest]

The details on the programme were vague with regard to this, but the story that has come to light is as follows (NOTE: NOT ALL OF THIS WAS COVERED IN SOUL DEEP):

Sam Cooke was out drinking with friends one night, and went back to a motel with a girl who was waiting for him in the bar.  It appears they spent the night together, and when he woke the next morning, she was gone.  He also noticed that she had robbed his wallet and other valuables.  At this point, he confronted the receptionist and hotel owner and demanded to know who the woman was, and where she had gone.  what followed next is a mystery, but the owner of the hotel shot Cooke 30 times, claiming self-defence.  Can't remember if she was acquitted or what.

It's not known if the woman who Cooke had spent the night with was known to him or, as some believe, a prostitute.

It's further unfortunate that the rumour originally circulating about his death (at least until the late '70s) was that he was shot by the hotel maid he had tried to rape.  Of course, this was proved untrue by the series of events above.

Gene

link

HI ya Gene, long time no see - hope Fri?

Glad you cleared that up as I was wondering about the 'truth' of the events too!

[Pete S]

you serious ???

thought it was obvious why they showed that clip

link

So did I...and Womack was certainly happy at what the Stones did when he got his royalty cheque

[Daved]

The details on the programme were vague with regard to this, but the story that has come to light is as follows (NOTE: NOT ALL OF THIS WAS COVERED IN SOUL DEEP):

Sam Cooke was out drinking with friends one night, and went back to a motel with a girl who was waiting for him in the bar.  It appears they spent the night together, and when he woke the next morning, she was gone.  He also noticed that she had robbed his wallet and other valuables.  At this point, he confronted the receptionist and hotel owner and demanded to know who the woman was, and where she had gone.  what followed next is a mystery, but the owner of the hotel shot Cooke 30 times, claiming self-defence.  Can't remember if she was acquitted or what.

It's not known if the woman who Cooke had spent the night with was known to him or, as some believe, a prostitute.

It's further unfortunate that the rumour originally circulating about his death (at least until the late '70s) was that he was shot by the hotel maid he had tried to rape.  Of course, this was proved untrue by the series of events above.

Gene

link

Gene, thanks for that. I've heard the latter rumour too plus other variations and I don't suppose we'll ever know the truth. If anyone else has something of substance to add, I'd be very interested.

[Guest Karen Heath]

So did I...and Womack was certainly happy at what the Stones did when he got his royalty cheque

link

Of course he was! And being one of the few black songwriters to actually receive any royalties from his work, you can't blame him.

Likewise, it is perhaps human nature that the Stones sought to emulate black music and sell it back to America in a different package. However, while professing a respect for black artists and their music, Jagger was responsible for singing some truly abhorrent lyrics.

A prime example and a possible indication of his latent feelings came out in the misogynistic and racist line from the title track of the 1978 album, "Some Girls."

"Black girls just want to get f***ed all night...." etc.

When there was uproar within the black community, Jagger couldn't care less about the offence caused. He claimed it was a parody of the type of people who held those attitudes and added, "You can't take a joke, it's too f***ing bad"

Nice!!!

[Pete S]

Of course he was! And being one of the few black songwriters to actually receive any royalties from his work, you can't blame him.

Likewise, it is perhaps human nature that  the Stones sought to emulate black music and sell it back to America in a different package. However, while professing  a respect for black artists and their music, Jagger was responsible for singing some truly abhorrent lyrics.

A prime example and a possible indication of his latent feelings came out in the misogynistic and racist line from the title track of the 1978 album, "Some Girls."

"Black girls just want to get f***ed all night...." etc.

When there was uproar within the black community, Jagger couldn't care less about the offence caused. He claimed it was a parody of the type of people who held those attitudes and added, "You can't take a joke, it's too f***ing bad"

Nice!!!

link

They also had to withdraw the inner sleeve of that album because of some of the depictions of black women.

Having said that...The Stones' version is better than the Valentinos anyway..

[Guest Karen Heath]

They also had to withdraw the inner sleeve of that album because of some of the depictions of black women.

Having said that...The Stones' version is better than the Valentinos anyway..

link

Have been googling away trying to find the censored picture. Do you know any links?

[Pete S]

Have been googling away trying to find the censored picture. Do you know any links?

link

Not off the top of my head but I think I've actually got it somewhere, probably in a book.

Will try and find it after tea!

[Pete S]

Karen this link will take you to the start of loads of versions of the sleeve, haven't had time to look though

Some Girls Sleeves

[Soulsmith]

Good news. I've been away for 24 hours & I seem to have achieved the near impossible, in uniting most of Source Scource ......(in disagreeing with me).

Tomorrow I plan to single handedly tackle the Palestinian crisis.

Col.

PS its noted than none of you actually seemed to note the first part of the first sentence in my first post.

[Guest Karen Heath]

Karen this link will take you to the start of loads of versions of the sleeve, haven't had time to look though

Some Girls Sleeves

link

Thanks Pete. The cover wasn't as bad as I thought-it's quite kitsch!

[Guest Karen Heath]

Good news. I've been away for 24 hours & I seem to have achieved the near impossible, in uniting most of Source Scource ......(in disagreeing with me).

Tomorrow I plan to single handedly tackle the Palestinian crisis.

Col.

PS its noted than none of you actually seemed to note the first part of the first sentence in my first post.

link

Excellent- now for my thoughts on Palestine.....not really!

I did notice the first part of your sentence and realised that you had come in halfway through the Rolling Stones rendition. I was trying to say why I thought they had done that. If I had started watching at that point, I probably would have thought the same as you- TV programmes about soul often revert to featuring a lot of irrelevant stuff ie nice white "soul" artists!

[Mike]

Excellent- now for my thoughts on Palestine.....not really!

I did notice the first part of your sentence and realised that you had come in halfway through the Rolling Stones rendition. I was trying to say why I thought they had done that. If I had started watching at that point, I probably would have thought the same as you- TV programmes about soul often revert to featuring a lot of irrelevant stuff ie nice white "soul" artists!

link

I of course took no notice of the first part of his sentence and jumped in feet first, though some may say perhaps deserved one foot for posting up a strong view without seeing it all.... maybe

Bobby Womacks bit after the clip on rolling stones made me smile, went along lines of

when i first heard their version, I hated them

when I saw the royality cheques I loved them

mike

[Soulsmith]

Mike, don't feel bad, I know there will be plenty of other opportunities to deservedly kick my back side.

Having said that I really did enjoy the balance of the show & quite like your site

Col.

Looking fwd to next weeks BBC show - "The Motown Review - Starring Dusty Springfield"

[Guest Dan]

what followed next is a mystery, but the owner of the hotel shot Cooke 30 times, claiming self-defence.  Can't remember if she was acquitted or what.

Gene

link

that's interesting gene

never really delved too deep before on this

in a rather sick way i love the fact that the hotel manager claimed self-defence when shooting him 30 times; that's five full reloads for the average revolver. interesting legal argument.

tragic how so many brilliant artists died so young.

[Mandy]

Does anyone know if the show gets repeated through the week? Say on BBC3 or 4 for example????

I've missed both so far

Jamie

link

I missed last saturdays too but imagine my surprise when my 85 year old grannie said she'd taped it and I can borrow it!!! If you're stuck Jamie I'll send it up to you after I've watched it

[FrankM]

that's interesting gene

never really delved too deep before on this

in a rather sick way i love the fact that the hotel manager claimed self-defence when shooting him 30 times; that's five full reloads for the average revolver. interesting legal argument.

tragic how so many brilliant artists died so young.

link

If you saw the film she appeared in a press confrence and acknowledged she had shot him three times. How did she know she shot him. Sam Cooke said "lady you shot me".

From the history of rock

"With a live LP in the Top 30, Cooke was in L.A. partying when he met 22 year old Elisa Boyer at a club on December 11, 1964. They drove to South Central where they registered at the Hacienda Motel as Mr. and Mrs. Sam Cooke. Later Boyer left the room with most of Cooke's clothing. Cooke wearing one shoe and a jacket broke into the motel's office where he thought she was hiding. There he found Bertha Franklin the motel's manager who shot him three times with a .22. The manager of the motel, Bertha Franklin claimed Cooke had tried to rape a twenty one year old woman Elisa Boyer and then turned on her. The coroner's office ruled the death as justifiable homicide. Over thirty five years later there remain questions about the circumstances of Cooke's death and there has been talk about reopening the investigation."

[Guest Karen Heath]

There is an interesting(ish) report on Sam Cooke's murder at; www.clarkkauffman.tripod.com

then click on "The death of Sam Cooke.

Sorry, don't know how to make a link!

[Guest]

To be honest altho there's no denying what Sam Cooke did for popular music and Soul music I found his material quite sugary and well, soul less

However later in the programme when Bobby was relating the story of when Sam rung him and said 'come over here, you gotta hear this song I've written, it's gonna be huge...' and then they dropped ' A Change is Gonna Come' WOW! I got goosebumps on mi goosebumps! Especially showing the archive pictures with it.

Then he died a few months later. A case of what could have been...

I had seen a bit of the footage before, but also delighted at the new footage shown especially the gospel quartets, and the singer whose name escapes me now, but was someone Sam looked up to... Quality!

Just thought I'd share that...

Sam

[Simsy]

There is an interesting(ish) report on Sam Cooke's murder at; www.clarkkauffman.tripod.com

then click on "The death of Sam Cooke.

Sorry, don't know how to make a link!

link

Not working Karen

Sorry, but the page or the file that you're looking for is not here

[Guest Karen Heath]

Not working Karen  

Sorry, but the page or the file that you're looking for is not here

link

I just typed the address in on Google and it comes up as The Ultimate Sam Cooke Website then scroll down to the death of Sam Cooke........if you can be bothered. It's not THAT interesting!

With my luddite tendencies, still can't do the link for you!

[Guest Karen Heath]

Not working Karen  

Sorry, but the page or the file that you're looking for is not here

link

I just typed the address in on Google and it comes up as The Ultimate Sam Cooke Website then scroll down to the death of Sam Cooke........if you can be bothered. It's not THAT interesting!

With my luddite tendencies, still can't do the link for you!

Edited May 19, 2005 by Karen Heath

[Guest Karen Heath]

Not working Karen  

Sorry, but the page or the file that you're looking for is not here

link

Oh blimey-I'm making a right mess here-keeps going wrong! I just put the address into Google and it comes up as The Ultimate Sam Cooke website. Scroll down to The death of Sam Cooke...........If you can be bothered! It's not THAT interesting!

With my luddite tendencies, I can't make a link for you.

[Guest Karen Heath]

I am a buffoon.