Why Are Soul Venues Shutting Down?

[Guest]

WHY IS IT SO MANY SOUL VENUES HAVE SHUTDOWN OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS? C.I.S. UNION NOTTS,AWESWORTH NOTTS,AND NOW WINSFORD TO NAME JUST A FEW. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR VIEWS COS IT SEEMS TO ME THE SCENE IS DWINDLEING FAST.IS DOWN TO...BAD PROMOTING?BAD SELECTION OF DJS MUSIC POLICY? TOO MANY VENUES ON THE GO? OR POLITICS?DRUGGIES,PISSHEADS,TIT TATLERS,GOSSIP HOUNDS,BACKSTABBERS? WHAT PLEASE HELP ME OUT!!!!!!

[Guest Trevski]

WHY IS IT SO MANY SOUL VENUES HAVE SHUTDOWN OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS? C.I.S. UNION NOTTS,AWESWORTH NOTTS,AND NOW WINSFORD TO NAME JUST A FEW. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR VIEWS COS IT SEEMS TO ME THE SCENE IS DWINDLEING FAST.IS DOWN TO...BAD PROMOTING?BAD SELECTION OF DJS MUSIC POLICY? TOO MANY VENUES ON THE GO? OR POLITICS?DRUGGIES,PISSHEADS,TIT TATLERS,GOSSIP HOUNDS,BACKSTABBERS? WHAT PLEASE HELP ME OUT!!!!!!

All of the above perhaps....

[Andybellwood]

All of the above perhaps....

one to buck the apparent trend - the launch of ....

NORTH YORKSHIRE SOUL CLUB @ THE RILEY SMITH HALL, TADCASTER. YORKSHIRE. LS24 9JB. SAT 28^th MARCH .7.30 pm til' 01.00.

Late bars & caf. Large (free) car park opposite. Recently restored 1920s Art Deco ballroom with balcony .

Fantastic wooden dance floor (reputedly the largest sprung dance floor in England) 2^ND room for rarer & underplayed soul.

DJ's PAT BRADY, NEIL RUSHTON, COLIN WOOD, STEVE WOOMBLE, MARTIN BYRD, JOHN PARKER, TONY HATFIELD, ANDY BELLWOOD, DAVE JAMES (Original Whafedale Soul Club DJ).Tickets:£4 adv/ £5 door.

NEW WEBSITE LAUNCHED https://www.imonmyway.me.uk/index.html

Info Dale Byers Tel 07709276357, Tony Hatfield Tel 07742054847. Future 09 dates: Frid 22 May, Frid 23 Oct, Sat 19 Dec (Xmas party)

[Guest Simon]

All of the above perhaps....

Agreed there's lots of issues, only been into it 15 years myself but it seemed to be a lot more exciting during the first ten years, seems to have gone a bit stale in recent years imho or maybe i'm just getting older.

Maybe the lack of new 6ts discoveries is part of it, i remember when Ady released all that unreleased RCA stuff etc, that was an exciting time.

Still go to the odd do that's good but a lot of the time there's not much i see that would make me put any large amount of effort in to get to it.

Simon

[chrissie]

Agreed there's lots of issues, only been into it 15 years myself but it seemed to be a lot more exciting during the first ten years, seems to have gone a bit stale in recent years imho or maybe i'm just getting older.

Maybe the lack of new 6ts discoveries is part of it, i remember when Ady released all that unreleased RCA stuff etc, that was an exciting time.

Still go to the odd do that's good but a lot of the time there's not much i see that would make me put any large amount of effort in to get to it.

Simon

We are perhaps lucky in our area where we have lost a couple of nights, as much to do with the club managment staff as numbers, it is certainly exciting times for us in Beds, Herts and the surrounding areas with The launch of 3 new events, Stewartby Allnighter, Groovesville - Hitchin and this Saturday see's the launch of Molly's new night in Bedford. We also have the re-launch of TOTS in Luton later in the year at its new venue.

None of these events are flooding the calander choosing on average 3-5 nights a year and curucially working with each other on dates so as to avoid any clashes with each other and any other dates in surrounding areas.

QoFxx

Edited February 11, 2009 by chrissie

[Guest Matt Male]

I'm not being funny but is there any chance we can keep these discussion threads off Events and Lookbacks, they've got nothing to do with publicising a particular night. This is the second one in a couple of days. Those of us with events to push find it hard keeping them on the front page as it is.

[111spider]

around the notts area there is somewhere to go every friday and saturday night if you want it.so does it come down to how much you want or can it be the lack of need to travel in this neck of the woods.it may also have something to do with the rising cost of fuel-petrol/alchol and others

and not the funds to to go out so often.im sure ever punter will have his/her own reason for not getting to the do's

[Dave Rimmer]

Winsford is a simple one to answer. The Civic Hall is being demolished. Some of the others have closed because the management of the venue has changed, and some have closed because there were simply too many venues in that particular area for the number of people who were likely to attend.

[Pete S]

Winsford is a simple one to answer. The Civic Hall is being demolished. Some of the others have closed because the management of the venue has changed, and some have closed because there were simply too many venues in that particular area for the number of people who were likely to attend.

LIke Dave says - it's down to the amount of punters mainly. Ten years ago when the returnees outnumbered the stayers, you could have put a do on every night of the week. Now, about two thirds of the returnees have disappeared again therefore the numbers of people going out have dropped drsatically. Plus the fact that circumstances change - I've had two children in the last 4 years, something I was never expecting to happen, so thats why I stopped going out. And of course, theres the music policies...

[Nige Brown]

AS MAT MALE SAYS WHATS THIS THREAD GOT TO DO WITH UP AND COMING EVENTS!!

CANT THE MODS MOVE IT!!

THREADS LIKE THIS JUST CAUSE SHITE AND NAST ANYWAY PEHAPS THATS THE IDEA!!

NIGE B

Edited February 11, 2009 by Torchboy

[Guest]

WHY IS IT SO MANY SOUL VENUES HAVE SHUTDOWN OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS? C.I.S. UNION NOTTS,AWESWORTH NOTTS,AND NOW WINSFORD TO NAME JUST A FEW. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR VIEWS COS IT SEEMS TO ME THE SCENE IS DWINDLEING FAST.IS DOWN TO...BAD PROMOTING?BAD SELECTION OF DJS MUSIC POLICY? TOO MANY VENUES ON THE GO? OR POLITICS?DRUGGIES,PISSHEADS,TIT TATLERS,GOSSIP HOUNDS,BACKSTABBERS? WHAT PLEASE HELP ME OUT!!!!!!

fate?.

everything has a natural life cycle. How long was the 'soul boom' first time around?.

I agree with those who say a combination of factors. Many of those who came back out to play ten years ago when their kids had grown up or they'd got divorced etc now have grandkids who take up their time instead or have remarried and resettled down or just got bored maybe?. Far too many venues too.

Venue's are more expensive now because their costs have risen. Loads of reasons. I'll stick with fate as my answer.

Jayne.x.

[Mike]

AS MAT MALE SAYS WHATS THIS THREAD GOT TO DO WITH UP AND COMING EVENTS!!

CANT THE MODS MOVE IT!!

THREADS LIKE THIS JUST CAUSE SHITE AND NAST ANYWAY PEHAPS THATS THE IDEA!!

NIGE B

Nige, Matt

thread moved

best if use the report post button if spot ought that think work better if moved

good chance that mods are not aware of how threads going etc and so wont be aware of your suggestions

cheers

mike

[Rbman]

Hey, last nights are always the best.....so good that the Casino had 4 of them....

[Guest andrew bin]

we won't be holding any more nights at our present venue because of the committee that run it (like the one in the vicar of dibley) I'm actually in dispute with them at the moment about what they did to us in relation to canceling our last date in December,

if i owned a venue i would love to hold northern soul events, don't these people want the business

[Guest cardysharpy]

It's because we are old and getting older.

Until a younger generation rediscover the music themselves with their own take on it, soul nights will continue to peter out.

The sort of thing I mean was illustrated to me on a night out a few months back (albeit not with soul). We were on stag do and looking for an all night drink. Someone suggested a rock and roll allnighter that was being held at a pub called the Old Axe in Bethnal Green. We went along expecting it to be sparsely populated by old teds (partly because of the music and partly because it is a filthy rotten old strippers pub). From midnight until six am the place was absolutely rammed to the rafters with predominantly 18- 25 year olds genuinely into the music, which was all being played from original seven inch singles. Whilst I'm no R and Roll expect the records played weren't run of the mill classics but obscure tracks. It was also apparent to me that the youngsters in there hadn't developed their passion from spending evenings out with old age greasers.

I guess the same thing needs to happen with our music.

[Rich B]

We run a venue in Notts but we do it for ourselves first. If we get enough people through the door to cover costs we take it as a plus, but every month we're prepared to dig in our own pockets to enable us play 5 hours of soul in a room with a bar and a dance floor. Fortunatly we're well supported so the theory hasn't been tested yet.

But the scene has ebbed and flowed since the start. Venues will close but if there's a demand others will always open.

John

As some may know I "did" the northern thing for many years, did a bit of dj stuff (and yes, I can use a mike, and you would be able to understand what I said!) enjoyed buying a record now and then, and what killed it for me was the unrelenting diet of oldies, and people who just would not listen to anything new - at all - never mind a record that was made after 31/12/1969.

Dave Godin, bless him, made the observation in about '76 or '77, that if we didn't get a grip on the oldies thing and go back to being a newies scene we would end up like Teddy Boys (not the rockabilly fans mentioned earlier) where the average age would be 50+ and with a stagnant scene.

Sound familiar?

Regards,

RB

ps I will be out and about this weekend if anyone wants to discuss, you'll find me at the Modern room, because I'll hear records I have never heard before - I'll actually have to ask what things are, without knowing after the first bar that it is a once great record that just can't be allowed to pass on.

[paup-ine]

As some may know I "did" the northern thing for many years, did a bit of dj stuff (and yes, I can use a mike, and you would be able to understand what I said!) enjoyed buying a record now and then, and what killed it for me was the unrelenting diet of oldies, and people who just would not listen to anything new - at all - never mind a record that was made after 31/12/1969.

Dave Godin, bless him, made the observation in about '76 or '77, that if we didn't get a grip on the oldies thing and go back to being a newies scene we would end up like Teddy Boys (not the rockabilly fans mentioned earlier) where the average age would be 50+ and with a stagnant scene.

Sound familiar?

Regards,

RB

ps I will be out and about this weekend if anyone wants to discuss, you'll find me at the Modern room, because I'll hear records I have never heard before - I'll actually have to ask what things are, without knowing after the first bar that it is a once great record that just can't be allowed to pass on.

Good point.

P

[Guest Soultown andy]

Plenty of venues still doing very well,maybe some of those shutting werent that good,not all of course but a good few.

[Steve G]

As some may know I "did" the northern thing for many years, did a bit of dj stuff (and yes, I can use a mike, and you would be able to understand what I said!) enjoyed buying a record now and then, and what killed it for me was the unrelenting diet of oldies, and people who just would not listen to anything new - at all - never mind a record that was made after 31/12/1969.

Dave Godin, bless him, made the observation in about '76 or '77, that if we didn't get a grip on the oldies thing and go back to being a newies scene we would end up like Teddy Boys (not the rockabilly fans mentioned earlier) where the average age would be 50+ and with a stagnant scene.

Sound familiar?

Regards,

RB

ps I will be out and about this weekend if anyone wants to discuss, you'll find me at the Modern room, because I'll hear records I have never heard before - I'll actually have to ask what things are, without knowing after the first bar that it is a once great record that just can't be allowed to pass on.

Interesting and good points. Must admit wouldn't bother with an oldies venue if one opened up across the road. Also thought Cardysharpy's post was interesting......young blood that's what is needed.

[Guest Brian Ellis]

As some may know I "did" the northern thing for many years, did a bit of dj stuff (and yes, I can use a mike, and you would be able to understand what I said!) enjoyed buying a record now and then, and what killed it for me was the unrelenting diet of oldies, and people who just would not listen to anything new - at all - never mind a record that was made after 31/12/1969.

Dave Godin, bless him, made the observation in about '76 or '77, that if we didn't get a grip on the oldies thing and go back to being a newies scene we would end up like Teddy Boys (not the rockabilly fans mentioned earlier) where the average age would be 50+ and with a stagnant scene.

Sound familiar?

Regards,

RB

ps I will be out and about this weekend if anyone wants to discuss, you'll find me at the Modern room, because I'll hear records I have never heard before - I'll actually have to ask what things are, without knowing after the first bar that it is a once great record that just can't be allowed to pass on.

Agree with much of what Rich says above. I've put forward some of my thinking in my 'Major Changes at Broughton in 2009' thread.

As our venue became progressively more popular, so we saw increasing numbers coming through the door. Initially these were people who were well into the music ('the stayers' as referred to above) and our music policy reflected their tastes .

However as news spread we started to see an increase in the number of 'returners' who found it impossible to understand why they weren't being fed exactly the same diet as the last time they 'feasted' at a Northern Soul night (circa 1979). And this group were not slow in giving DJs various degrees of grief, from constant nagging to 'play something I know', to downright aggressive threats if we didn't 'stop playing this shite' - 'put us The Snake on pal'.

This pressure was also applied to the management at Broughton by some people leaving early 'cos the guest DJ is crap' (including some of the top names on the scene) just because they didn't know anything he was playing.

So to cut a long story short (you really don't want 8.5 years of history!!) the music policy has very slowly ebbed away from where Sam, I, and the North Wales DJs who've worked with us in the time, wanted Broughton to be. This has all happened insidiously rather than overnight, but the playlist to the point of changing things this year is a whole lot different to what it looked like in 2003/4.

As the music policy diluted so did a good number of our 'stayers' who came to Broughton because the 'diet' was something different.

And over the past 18 months or so those who have had the greatest influence on the dilution of the music policy have basically 'f**ked off' deserted us .

But there are other reasons too such as duplicate events around the area; whilst I accept that no one or no event has the right to expect a monopoly and competition is often good, putting more fishing rods in a pool of diminishing stock means there's far less of a 'catch' for everyone.

Whilst I hate to admit it (and no way would I want to go back to the way it was) I do think the Smoking Ban has had a detrimental effect on numbers.

Maybe that's life and there's a natural cycle to everything and things will generally drift downwards as they did during the early 80's; problem is how many of us will be around when the scene takes off on its next upward part of its cycle?

For what it's worth that's my take on things from this corner of North Wales.

Brian

Edited February 11, 2009 by Brian Ellis

[Supercorsa]

Does anyone feel that the lack of memberships nowadays has any effect? Every other week there seems to be comments about handbaggers & people just out for extra drinks. So although memberships are no longer in place, does the in flux of people who aren't into the music, put off those who love the music? (does that make sense? ).

I don't dance, but when I've seen outsiders dancing with pints in hand, it tends to make the regulars get off the dancefloor and head for the exits. Should memberships be brought back?

[Steve G]

Anyone mentioned the credit crunch yet?

[Quinvy]

WHY IS IT SO MANY SOUL VENUES HAVE SHUTDOWN OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS? C.I.S. UNION NOTTS,AWESWORTH NOTTS,AND NOW WINSFORD TO NAME JUST A FEW. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR VIEWS COS IT SEEMS TO ME THE SCENE IS DWINDLEING FAST.IS DOWN TO...BAD PROMOTING?BAD SELECTION OF DJS MUSIC POLICY? TOO MANY VENUES ON THE GO? OR POLITICS?DRUGGIES,PISSHEADS,TIT TATLERS,GOSSIP HOUNDS,BACKSTABBERS? WHAT PLEASE HELP ME OUT!!!!!!

I can't agree with your analogy.....it seems to me, that for every venue that shuts, another two open....as we have got older, and we don't have the energy, or indeed the inclination to dance all night. We have all decided that we'll do a bit of DJ'ing instead....but the only way you can get regular spots is by starting your own venue....and that, in a nutshell, is what's killing this scene....Well, that and the fact that there aren't enough new 60's tunes being found....cos they aren't there....

[Hold Tight]

It's because we are old and getting older.

Until a younger generation rediscover the music themselves with their own take on it, soul nights will continue to peter out.

The sort of thing I mean was illustrated to me on a night out a few months back (albeit not with soul). We were on stag do and looking for an all night drink. Someone suggested a rock and roll allnighter that was being held at a pub called the Old Axe in Bethnal Green. We went along expecting it to be sparsely populated by old teds (partly because of the music and partly because it is a filthy rotten old strippers pub). From midnight until six am the place was absolutely rammed to the rafters with predominantly 18- 25 year olds genuinely into the music, which was all being played from original seven inch singles. Whilst I'm no R and Roll expect the records played weren't run of the mill classics but obscure tracks. It was also apparent to me that the youngsters in there hadn't developed their passion from spending evenings out with old age greasers.

I guess the same thing needs to happen with our music.

Spot on - people do want quality music thats not run of the mill prepackaged pop. Probably the most insightful post for a while that I've read.

IMO and for what its worth. When most scenes became strong enough to go on to survive and thrive it was because people wanted to belong ( this kind of links to the membership posts as well) at the moment there are very few younger people who are wanting to belong to the soul scene. I have no doubt it will change and if they are exposed to the soul scene will likely return to a much stronger place.

After all I would rather be in a rammed club listening to good music than sitting in a small group to the early hours with echoes swirling around the void of an empty venue. Mark.

[Our Kid]

Hey, last nights are always the best.....so good that the Casino had 4 of them....

I think you've missed a zero there somewhere!

Paul

[Spacehopper]

while i recognise some of the troubles that have been mentioned...and maybe in the future they will damage it....at the moment i dont think the 'scene' is in trouble....venues will come and go for whatever reason but there are still loads to choose from every weekend if you really want it....another thread would say theres too much.....so if a few more venues shut wouldnt that make those who remained, and the scene in general better ?....

....not that i want to see nites finishing you understand !...i know most people do it with passion and put a lot of work into it... or should do !!

[Chris L]

WHY IS IT SO MANY SOUL VENUES HAVE SHUTDOWN OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS? C.I.S. UNION NOTTS,AWESWORTH NOTTS,AND NOW WINSFORD TO NAME JUST A FEW. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR VIEWS COS IT SEEMS TO ME THE SCENE IS DWINDLEING FAST.IS DOWN TO...BAD PROMOTING?BAD SELECTION OF DJS MUSIC POLICY? TOO MANY VENUES ON THE GO? OR POLITICS?DRUGGIES,PISSHEADS,TIT TATLERS,GOSSIP HOUNDS,BACKSTABBERS? WHAT PLEASE HELP ME OUT!!!!!!

All the dodgy ones are closing for all the normal reasons, nobody is turning up, I went to an all nighter there about 20/25 people there - lost money - can't run anything is it's losing money - economic fact - not rocket science.............

Chris L

[Chris L]

Anyone mentioned the credit crunch yet?

You know I haven't seen that really yet touch the NS much, record prices are still fairly high, it may come but real reason is that a doubtful venue/line-up/music policy will fail in the face of the better quality ones - happens all the time in all businesses

[Guest]

Interesting and good points. Must admit wouldn't bother with an oldies venue if one opened up across the road. Also thought Cardysharpy's post was interesting......young blood that's what is needed.

Young blood is whats needed in my opinion...and as far as I can see you aren't going to get any playing stuff no young 'un's who love Tamla hasn't ever heard. Draw 'em in with the familiar first, create a party atmosphere that youngsters would love to attend. People have to let go of the past & embrace change in the soul scene.

[Guest cardysharpy]

Young blood is whats needed in my opinion...and as far as I can see you aren't going to get any playing stuff no young 'un's who love Tamla hasn't ever heard. Draw 'em in with the familiar first, create a party atmosphere that youngsters would love to attend. People have to let go of the past & embrace change in the soul scene.

Where I was coming from is that in order for a soul scene to survive, youngsters need to make it there own. The best the current scene will do is attract the odd few people that are maybe a bit younger than the regulars. When I first got into a retro soul scene it was on the periphery of the mid eighties rare groove scene. There's no doubt that a good few of the tracks played were standards to soulboys and jazz funkers ten years earlier, but it was it's own new vibrant scene and not run by a load of blokes with wedges and pegs.

I'm predominantly into modern and crossover stuff but I actually think that the northern sound is ripe for a revival, although not in a wholescale talcum powder, soul patches, "fist sign" sort of a way. The music is fast, energetic and raw which has got to be appealing to youngsters who are into the live band thing of the moment (how many second generation mods on here moved swiftly from The Jam to Northern?). There's also hundreds of great cheap records that fit the bill to those that are not prejudiced as a result of thirty years on the current rare soul scene.

Of course none of this answers the original question but it might provide us old buggers with the opportunity for somewhere to gatecrash in our retirement!

[Guest Beeks]

I'm predominantly into modern and crossover stuff

Thankfully not all youngsters have such bad taste

[Harry Crosby]

Its a regional thing i think, some places are doing well, and others in the instance of leeds & bradford only 5mins apart just not working in leeds but going great in bradford and going well in york, strange how leeds has allways had this problem, even in the days of the central, griffin etc most people travelled from away,some places will allways have a strong following of soul people imo of course

Edited February 12, 2009 by HARRY CROSBY

[Chris L]

It's because we are old and getting older.

Until a younger generation rediscover the music themselves with their own take on it, soul nights will continue to peter out.

From midnight until six am the place was absolutely rammed to the rafters with predominantly 18- 25 year olds genuinely into the music.

I guess the same thing needs to happen with our music.

Nice thought but highly unlikely, most R & R is of a commercial nature, translate that into soul music then you get Motown, so for young people to get converted the venues would need to play that Motownesque type of Northern Soul otherwise they'll get to hear that crappy rare sh** and either leg it or turn into chinstrokers, in any case there'll not be the momentum to move forward en masse. I know there are some dedicated Motown/Soul venues that fall outside the NS scope that do get good attendances from younger (<30 yeras old :-) punters, we should tap into that source. If you play an old Motown or Eddie Floyd single most people of any age will tap their feet and maybe even dance play some dorky NS choon like Troy Dodds - Try my love and they'll screw their faces up like their sucking lemons - that's a fact that needs to be faced.

Chris L - he's no lemon

[Guest Black Gold of the Sun]

Thankfully not all youngsters have such bad taste

You just cant help yourself can you ?Totally unnecessary comment

[Guest Beeks]

You just cant help yourself can you ?Totally unnecessary comment

Oh shut up and get a life...it was light hearted banter...sad...very sad

[Guest cardysharpy]

Nice thought but highly unlikely, most R & R is of a commercial nature, translate that into soul music then you get Motown, so for young people to get converted the venues would need to play that Motownesque type of Northern Soul otherwise they'll get to hear that crappy rare sh** and either leg it or turn into chinstrokers, in any case there'll not be the momentum to move forward en masse. I know there are some dedicated Motown/Soul venues that fall outside the NS scope that do get good attendances from younger (<30 yeras old :-) punters, we should tap into that source. If you play an old Motown or Eddie Floyd single most people of any age will tap their feet and maybe even dance play some dorky NS choon like Troy Dodds - Try my love and they'll screw their faces up like their sucking lemons - that's a fact that needs to be faced.

Chris L - he's no lemon

Chris, I disagree that "most rock and roll is of a commercial nature", but this isn't the issue.

In short, young people do not want to spend the night in a draughty hall full of old blokes in checked shirts. There are not enough "new" old soulies to sustain the scene as it is.

If young people discovered the music themselves- and did so without it being based around the current scene, there is real potential for it to thrive in a different form.

I haven't been over there, but isn't this what has happened in Spain and Italy?

[Mace]

Nice thought but highly unlikely, most R & R is of a commercial nature, translate that into soul music then you get Motown, so for young people to get converted the venues would need to play that Motownesque type of Northern Soul otherwise they'll get to hear that crappy rare sh** and either leg it or turn into chinstrokers, in any case there'll not be the momentum to move forward en masse. I know there are some dedicated Motown/Soul venues that fall outside the NS scope that do get good attendances from younger (<30 yeras old :-) punters, we should tap into that source. If you play an old Motown or Eddie Floyd single most people of any age will tap their feet and maybe even dance play some dorky NS choon like Troy Dodds - Try my love and they'll screw their faces up like their sucking lemons - that's a fact that needs to be faced.

Chris L - he's no lemon

I think your somewhat tiresome views on 'crappy rare shit' cloud what could otherwise be a constructive post.

If youngsters don't know the tune, it matters not on rarity or obscurity, but moreso on tempo and danceability of a tune....they don't know the tune anyway, so it's always gonna be 'what's in the groove that counts'.

Whether that be classic motown, overplayed oldie, rare unknown, Northern, R&B or even godforbid Latin.

If its an uptempo tune that is infectious enough youngsters will dance.

Your example of Troy Dodds could be swapped with Diana Ross's 'Stormy' and the same lemon sucking theory would hold true.

Do you really believe that every old Motown or Eddie Floyd single would have a positive dancefloor reaction for youngsters, where every rare, obscure, or virtually unknown one would not.

I'd love to be able get 600 youngsters with no knowledge of 60s/70s soul into Kingshall and show just how wrong you are.....

[Guest Beeks]

Whether that be classic motown, overplayed oldie, rare unknown, Northern, R&B or even godforbid Latin.

If its an uptempo tune that is infectious enough youngsters will dance.

You've hit the nail on the head there...with the young scene it's more about beats than anything else...if it is a great dancer doesn't matter what it is they will get on the floor

Thats probably why the Mod/R&B scene is seeing a big influx of youngsters...like it or loathe it R&B is very dancefloor friendly...and the kids have not only latched onto the lifestyle but the music as well...which in turn is then a good springboard to listening to more soul music

[Chris L]

Nice thought but highly unlikely, most R & R is of a commercial nature, translate that into soul music then you get Motown, so for young people to get converted the venues would need to play that Motownesque type of Northern Soul otherwise they'll get to hear that crappy rare sh** and either leg it or turn into chinstrokers, in any case there'll not be the momentum to move forward en masse. I know there are some dedicated Motown/Soul venues that fall outside the NS scope that do get good attendances from younger (<30 yeras old :-) punters, we should tap into that source. If you play an old Motown or Eddie Floyd single most people of any age will tap their feet and maybe even dance play some dorky NS choon like Troy Dodds - Try my love and they'll screw their faces up like their sucking lemons - that's a fact that needs to be faced.

Chris L - he's no lemon

Chris, I disagree that "most rock and roll is of a commercial nature", but this isn't the issue.

In short, young people do not want to spend the night in a draughty hall full of old blokes in checked shirts. There are not enough "new" old soulies to sustain the scene as it is.

If young people discovered the music themselves- and did so without it being based around the current scene, there is real potential for it to thrive in a different form.

I haven't been over there, but isn't this what has happened in Spain and Italy?

Looks like we actually do agree, check wat I rote ! Yes you're right all non-UK origin NS scenes have younger fans than the UK based ones, they do tend to be on the fringe of NS and stem from scooter, MOD, skinhead type scenes whereas NS was the main centre of gravity for Brits with the European scenes it tends te be part only. I'd bet a pound to a penny that there are far more NS punters out on a Saturday night that old/young R & R fans, although from my limited knowledge they do seem to very well organised and gravitate to each other giving the impression of being a large cohesive group.

Chris L

[Stevie]

How about promoters offering free admission to, say, under 21s.

Can't see there would be a great deal to lose in terms of profits except maybe for those who are City centre based.

Worth a try?

[Hold Tight]

Where I was coming from is that in order for a soul scene to survive, youngsters need to make it there own.

There's also hundreds of great cheap records that fit the bill to those that are not prejudiced as a result of thirty years on the current rare soul scene.

Two good points and ones I have to agree with. Links nicely in to Mace's post as well. I would love to see something like that happen.

Edited February 12, 2009 by hold tight

[Guest]

Nice thought but highly unlikely, most R & R is of a commercial nature, translate that into soul music then you get Motown, so for young people to get converted the venues would need to play that Motownesque type of Northern Soul otherwise they'll get to hear that crappy rare sh** and either leg it or turn into chinstrokers, in any case there'll not be the momentum to move forward en masse. I know there are some dedicated Motown/Soul venues that fall outside the NS scope that do get good attendances from younger (<30 yeras old :-) punters, we should tap into that source. If you play an old Motown or Eddie Floyd single most people of any age will tap their feet and maybe even dance play some dorky NS choon like Troy Dodds - Try my love and they'll screw their faces up like their sucking lemons - that's a fact that needs to be faced.

My point exactly.

[Guest]

I think your somewhat tiresome views on 'crappy rare shit' cloud what could otherwise be a constructive post.

If youngsters don't know the tune, it matters not on rarity or obscurity, but moreso on tempo and danceability of a tune....they don't know the tune anyway, so it's always gonna be 'what's in the groove that counts'.

Whether that be classic motown, overplayed oldie, rare unknown, Northern, R&B or even godforbid Latin.

If its an uptempo tune that is infectious enough youngsters will dance.

Your example of Troy Dodds could be swapped with Diana Ross's 'Stormy' and the same lemon sucking theory would hold true.

Do you really believe that every old Motown or Eddie Floyd single would have a positive dancefloor reaction for youngsters, where every rare, obscure, or virtually unknown one would not.

I'd love to be able get 600 youngsters with no knowledge of 60s/70s soul into Kingshall and show just how wrong you are.....

If a northern soul d.j got a slot in one of the chain of 'flares' pubs & had to keep the crowd happy.....thats what I mean by keeping the scene aimed at new blood..

[Guest Beeks]

Why are people under the impression that to get youth into the scene we need to dilute to crappy commercial motown records?

I personally think that is insulting the younger crowds ability to have taste...it's not that they wouldn't love the more rarer stuff...it's just accessibility that's the problem...and I personally think the obvious root is to crossover your Mod/R&B with more soulful sounds in the same vein at nights...therefore exposing them to the right kind of balance

They are young...not retarded

Edited February 12, 2009 by Beeks

[Rich B]

There have been many interesting points raised, in my usual pedantic way i'd like to look at them;

Currently successful rock & roll = commercial. Wrong.

Amongst the many hobbies I've had over the years one was collecting cars. My younger brother built hot rods, I had restored 50's + 60's and he often took me to the local rod meet, that came complete with a rock & roll disco (my italics). Commercial it was not! Rare, rare 45's of the most obscure nature - genuinely exciting stuff, first play stuff = excited/exciting young people, wearing the gear (no, not drapes and brothelcreepers) dancing like demons. No Bill Haley anywhere.

For those who wonder why the northern scene (and for that matter the current modern scene too) isn't attracting "young" people.

What was playing on the radio when you got into the scene properly as a lifestyle (can't believe I wrote that). For me it was '73ish so the charts are full of crap, no one has anywhere interesting or exciting to go - and then someone brings the Younghearts/Father's Angels/Chuck Wood round the house and tells me there is a club that just plays this all night - when you get there - no townies etc, your own uniform - well, Oxford bags and bowling shirts and flat shoes! My 'normal mates' upon seeing me in flat 'dad' shoes vs. thier platform soles, advise me they couldn't be seen out with me they were that shocked! I was quite pleased.

What does all that equate too? Special. You, your clothes, your mates, the music - nothing like the pop stuff everyone else is listening too - and damned exciting!

But now, when you have the internet, all music is free and therefore not based on rarity, and exciting means getting home without a stab wound - I'm just not sure that northen is going to compete with all that - plus kids all do drugs all the time now - once upon a time you only did drugs at your nighter, now they do them to go to the chippie!

Sorry guys, there isn't going to be an influx of young people, and most of the current crowd are only looking for nostalgia, they aren't interested in a living scene, just reminding theirselves of past glories. Most of the dj's we have now certainly wouldn't of been dj's (though many make claims to a past they didn't have) back then.

So, as a living, growing, evolving thing, it's time has been and gone. We should have listened to Dave when we had the chance. So enjoy it while you can.

regards,

RB

[Guest gordon russell]

You just cant help yourself can you ?Totally unnecessary comment

hello gazzer,how ya doing

[Guest Steve Lehair]

hello gazzer,how ya doing

its modern stuff that will bring the younger ones in and yer foolin yerself if you think otherwise. Hi gaz

hiya Terry

Steve

Edited February 12, 2009 by Steve Lehair

[Guest gordon russell]

its modern stuff that will bring the younger ones in and yer foolin yerself if you think otherwise. Hi gaz

hiya Terry

Steve

hello steve how ya doing .....see ya at burnley or lifeline?......some folk have clearly not met gazzer lol

[Wilxy]

WHY IS IT SO MANY SOUL VENUES HAVE SHUTDOWN OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS? C.I.S. UNION NOTTS,AWESWORTH NOTTS,AND NOW WINSFORD TO NAME JUST A FEW. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR VIEWS COS IT SEEMS TO ME THE SCENE IS DWINDLEING FAST.IS DOWN TO...BAD PROMOTING?BAD SELECTION OF DJS MUSIC POLICY? TOO MANY VENUES ON THE GO? OR POLITICS?DRUGGIES,PISSHEADS,TIT TATLERS,GOSSIP HOUNDS,BACKSTABBERS? WHAT PLEASE HELP ME OUT!!!!!!

Perhaps, as the song goes...."Only the strong survive"......Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure there are "promoters" out there who can elaborate???

[22ndsoul]

Just wondered if anyone had thought about the smoking ban as a reason for attendances down.We don't smoke ourselves,but a lot of people do,has it made a difference?

Edited February 12, 2009 by 22ndsoul