Frank Wilson On Soul Auction

[Ronjon]

Not too sure if I know this....anyone have a clip?

[Pete S]

Ahhhhaaaaaaaa but I bet you watch Top Gear

I don't actually, you can write down what I know about cars on a postage stamp. Didn't learn to drive til I was 40 years old

[Guest moggy]

I didn't say it will end up 8K on auction. I did say it's not worth more than 8K. I'm fully aware of how records can exceed their true value in auctions.

The reason why I don't join the "estimate the end price of FW" game is pretty simple: I can't be bothered.

I think FW is a fantastic record and with only 2 copies known to the public one of the rarest Northern Soul records too. But I'm not really excited about the news that a copy will soon be auctioned. If John Manship said a mint copy of the Mello Souls will be auctioned soon I'd be drooling...

So why do think its not worth more than 8k, Im not trying to provoke you, but 9 years ago it fetched 15k, nothing has changed much, prices have escalated on a great number of records and are maybe panning out a little now, but I am struggling to see where an 8k figure has come from and based on what

[Guest moggy]

I don't actually, you can write down what I know about cars on a postage stamp. Didn't learn to drive til I was 40 years old

That stamp wouldn't be a £35,000 Penny Black by any chance would it Pete

[Pete S]

So why do think its not worth more than 8k, Im not trying to provoke you, but 9 years ago it fetched 15k, nothing has changed much, prices have escalated on a great number of records and are maybe panning out a little now, but I am struggling to see where an 8k figure has come from and based on what

Because paying 15k when it's real value was maybe 5 grand is the action of a lottery winner to whom money is no object?

Does anyone honestly think it's worth that?

[Guest moggy]

Because paying 15k when it's real value was maybe 5 grand is the action of a lottery winner to whom money is no object?

Does anyone honestly think it's worth that?

I do Pete, and thats the honest truth, I think with all its history etc, its become a legend in Northern Soul's rich tapestry.

I do struggle when it comes to a painting of some sun-flowers, by some nut case from Holland with an ear missing, which if I remember correctly went for a mind boggling £23,000,000

PS

I couldn't afford it either Pete, not unless its around the £50 mark but I am intrigued as to who will be bidding on it, just that part alone has me looking forward to the sale, along with is it or is'nt it a 3rd copy .

[Ian Dewhirst]

Because paying 15k when it's real value was maybe 5 grand is the action of a lottery winner to whom money is no object?

Does anyone honestly think it's worth that?

I reckon it was worth that to Kenny at the time Pete.

It became the most-talked about record on both the Northern and collectors scene and Kenny's had 12 years of DJ bookings and publicity out of it. Fact is, it was worth it to Kenny at the time he bought it and over the course of the last 12 years has more than likely paid for itself at minimum and made a profit most likely.

Put youself in the position that you were offered a Frank Wilson to sell. Wouldn't it be in your interest to publicise it as a one-off event and glean all the attendant benefits from it?

Also the reasons why someone buys something at a huge price are not always clear-cut. Why can Damien Hirst sell a diamond-encrusted skull for £100,000,000? Because he'll sell it to a buyer who can use the purchase of the art to offset his tax burdon. Etc, etc.

In fact Damien Hirst could be a possible bidder! It's right up his street LOL........

Ian D

[Guest soulboy]

try this

Edited February 4, 2009 by soulboy

[Guest Glawsters Best]

hope this works oh f**k

they might be able to read that down under

[KevH]

I prefer the original by Eddie Foster.

[boba]

Because paying 15k when it's real value was maybe 5 grand is the action of a lottery winner to whom money is no object?

Does anyone honestly think it's worth that?

what determines a record's "real value"? I don't see any inherent value other than the cost of the vinyl and paper in the record. you keep acting like there is some inherent value to any record independent of what many people are willing to pay for it.

[Pete S]

what determines a record's "real value"? I don't see any inherent value other than the cost of the vinyl and paper in the record. you keep acting like there is some inherent value to any record independent of what many people are willing to pay for it.

Sorry, I really don't understand your point and can't understand why you don't get mine so best leave it.

[Marc Forrest]

Sorry, I really don't understand your point and can't understand why you don't get mine so best leave it.

Must admit I am with Pete on that on. If I would use your statement to explain the real value of an old master painting it would only be worth the cost of paper and paint...surely not.

Its been said before and can only be repeated so often:

A record was only worth what the buyer was willing to pay for it.

A record is only worth what the next buyer is willing to pay.

Simple as that.

Marc

[boba]

Must admit I am with Pete on that on. If I would use your statement to explain the real value of an old master painting it would only be worth the cost of paper and paint...surely not.

Its been said before and can only be repeated so often:

A record was only worth what the buyer was willing to pay for it.

A record is only worth what the next buyer is willing to pay.

Simple as that.

Marc

my point was exactly that a record was only worth what someone is willing to pay for it and my statement about the materials was that that was the only other way I could see evaluating it and that made no sense. It seems like Pete is evaluating the value some other way. If many people are willing to pay much more than 8000 pounds for frank wilson, how does pete keep saying that it's only worth 8000 pounds? Or is he actually saying that you could only sell it for 8000 pounds? That is what I have been repeating. I don't see how you're disagreeing with me. But I don't care either at this point, I just think it's strange because I don't think I'm saying anything complicated.

[Guest bazrico]

Strange world we live in, the most expensive record ever from the scene, and people cant be bothered or interested in what happens to it.

Who made it the most expensive record ever, certainly not the punter who just wants to have a good time at soul do's regardless the cost of the record being played i for one would not give a toss what the record cost. This comes from soulie not a collector or DJ has been promoter of three allnighters of days gone by.

[Pete S]

my point was exactly that a record was only worth what someone is willing to pay for it and my statement about the materials was that that was the only other way I could see evaluating it and that made no sense. It seems like Pete is evaluating the value some other way. If many people are willing to pay much more than 8000 pounds for frank wilson, how does pete keep saying that it's only worth 8000 pounds? Or is he actually saying that you could only sell it for 8000 pounds? That is what I have been repeating. I don't see how you're disagreeing with me. But I don't care either at this point, I just think it's strange because I don't think I'm saying anything complicated.

OK if you were to ask me how much I thought Frank Wilson was worth, I would say 8 grand. Thats how much I think it is worth.

[Guest moggy]

Who made it the most expensive record ever, certainly not the punter who just wants to have a good time at soul do's regardless the cost of the record being played i for one would not give a toss what the record cost. This comes from soulie not a collector or DJ has been promoter of three allnighters of days gone by.

Fair comment Baz, I was answering to Pete & Benji.

And as someone who spent many years collecting, you can also see where im coming from.

But isn't it strange how many people have looked into this thread purly on the basis that one of the rarest records we know of, is to go up for auction could it be there just a little bit interested

[SHEFFSOUL]

...I agree with pete on most points..based on other rare 45's , the few known to exist..that are considered northern soul classics, (truly great dancers) maybe even 8k is high. I'm not up to speed on the recent big ticket items..but Frank Beverly/Rouser,Magnetics,Twans?,Dennis Edwards..what are they worth? The price has undoubtably been raised by all the hype/mystery/stolen?/Motown etc..and not least by a guy who was prepared to put his hand in his pocket to achieve a lifetime dream(KB) given that he (apparently) had had a windfall.Its worth what somebody is prepared to pay is an empty statement..same applies to any art form.Warhols Marilyn, which was shot through by a jealous fan, reached a staggering price because of the drama/hype/news etc that surrounded it, it wasn't his best Marilyn or even best Warhol but was guided by collector interest.If you asked most northern fans what would they buy with a say, 10k gift i bet many would buy the less expensive but equally rare or nearly as rare items..I certainly would.I also agree there are better sounding northern records..also most art form collecting is a type of snobbery, many who own rare pieces don't appreciate their worth,its a show off thing! I think KB knew what he wanted, could afford it..and has enjoyed it enormously, simple as that.I remember John Manship was a minor player on the collecting scene until he forked out a then incredible amount for Levines copy of James Fountain, eveyone was talking about it, Dave Withers made the point..

JM had a record he'd badly wanted..his name was on everybodys lips..the latest buzzword.As to the 'real' value as in a general consenus amongst knowlegable dealers/collectors think 8k is a reasonable estimate.I am interested in its final value, but only in passing.I'll never own or particularly want a FW..do i think its earned its reputation in northern folklore..'indeed I do!'

[Guest SteveJohnston]

It's took me an age to find this report in Black Echoes but i could remeber reading it back then so i started to look for it last Saturday!

Black Echoes August 25 1979

SIX SOUL SIDES

Colony/Destiny records boss and long time soul collector and occasional DJ Kev Roberts has put pen to paper and listed six personal raves from his own collection. The results are as folllllows

1 Ed Wingate "give me lot's of lovin" / That's when i need you" Telma Records

this fantastic double header from the Detroit's Mr Legend famous for his promotions, I didn't even know that he made records, both sides are sensational, so listen out for it.

2 Frank Wilson " do i love you (indeed i do) Soul 35019

What can you say about this soul classic that has not already been said?. Issued on 26: 12:1965 according to the label this is the only copy in existence to my knowledge.

Could above be the copy going to Auction? and is this Tim's or Kennys copy or a 3rd one he is talking about?

Steve J

Edited February 5, 2009 by SteveJohnston

[Guest Matt Male]

I think part of the interest for me is the provenance of the record not the value. It might not be the greatest sound ever (and i agree with Pete there are several hundred others i would personally spend £30k on) but it has a very interesting story attached to it that is still going on. In years to come this auction will be another part of the life of this record (a seven inch piece of plastic and paper) and that's great, it's like we're living history.

While we are on this subject i'd like to see a thread on other rarities and their discovery and change of hands etc... Mello Souls for example, what's the story there?

Edited February 5, 2009 by Matt Male

[Ian Dewhirst]

It's took me an age to find this report in Black Echoes but i could remeber reading it back then so i started to look for it last Saturday!

Black Echoes August 25 1979

SIX SOUL SIDES

Colony/Destiny records boss and long time soul collector and occasional DJ Kev Roberts has put pen to paper and listed six personal raves from his own collection. The results are as folllllows

1 Ed Wingate "give me lot's of lovin" / That's when i need you" Telma Records

this fantastic double header from the Detroit's Mr Legend famous for his promotions, I didn't even know that he made records, both sides are sensational, so listen out for it.

2 Frank Wilson " do i love you (indeed i do) Soul 35019

What can you say about this soul classic that has not already been said?. Issued on 26: 12:1965 according to the label this is the only copy in existence to my knowledge.

Could above be the copy going to Auction? and is this Tim's or Kennys copy or a 3rd one he is talking about?

Steve J

This is the original copy i.e. Simon Soussan - Les McCutcheon - Kev Roberts - Johnathan Woodliffe - Kev Roberts - Tim Brown and eventually Kenny Burrell.

In fact, for the purposes of the auction it might be an idea to do a 'family tree' (Pete Frame does them for Pop/Rock acts with changing personnel) tracing the ownership of the 2 known copies with an enigmatic '?' for the third copy?

Ian D

[Garethx]

It's took me an age to find this report in Black Echoes but i could remeber reading it back then so i started to look for it last Saturday!

Black Echoes August 25 1979

SIX SOUL SIDES

Colony/Destiny records boss and long time soul collector and occasional DJ Kev Roberts has put pen to paper and listed six personal raves from his own collection. The results are as folllllows

1 Ed Wingate "give me lot's of lovin" / That's when i need you" Telma Records

this fantastic double header from the Detroit's Mr Legend famous for his promotions, I didn't even know that he made records, both sides are sensational, so listen out for it.

2 Frank Wilson " do i love you (indeed i do) Soul 35019

What can you say about this soul classic that has not already been said?. Issued on 26: 12:1965 according to the label this is the only copy in existence to my knowledge.

Could above be the copy going to Auction? and is this Tim's or Kennys copy or a 3rd one he is talking about?

Steve J

That's an interesting post Steve. The Number 1 record is presumably the 7" bootleg of Freddy Butler on Kapp. Shows how potentially embarrassing it can be to review cover-ups. The copy of FW he's referring to is the one now in Tim Brown's possession.

On the earlier posts I think it's potentially very exciting if another copy has come to light and I'm sure whatever price the record will fetch in an open auction will cause a lot of reaction either way.

If the record is Berry Gordy's personal copy it wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility to speculate that he will potentially be aiming to buy it back, pay any auction commission and consider it a value-for-money promotional expense. I think I'm correct in saying that while Motown Records as an entity has gone through several phases of ownership since he sold his interest, he still has a considerable stake in the publishing rights of the song catalogue: a far more valuable asset than ownership of a recording company. With the Motown 50th Anniversary in full swing the auction of such an item would create some media interest (at least in the world of music if not beyond) if handled correctly.

If auctioned I'm sure this 45 will break established price barriers for a soul record, but I don't know that it has a high enough profile outside of the Northern Soul scene and a select band of Motown collectors to challenge things like the Velvet Underground Columbia acetates and so on in terms of sheer collectibility.

The idea of the record being bought by a 'non-fan' as a purely-collectable asset doesn't seem viable in any way to me: in overall terms in that particular world it's worthless as an art object (it's not unique and the story behind the record is of limited importance to those without direct involvement or fan interest).

I wonder if things might have been different with this record if Soussan wasn't involved in its original Northern scene exposure. Had it been found and spun uncovered or not bootlegged I'm sure it would still have been the biggest record on the scene for at least a time but maybe the level of mystique surrounding it would not have been as sustained. If it had been spun in 1973 as opposed to later in the decade it may have got lost in the welter of truly definitive sounds around at that time.

I'm not dismissing the Frank Wilson 45, far from it: I think if you strip away the hype and history you're left with a really wonderful slice of joyous and memorable pure dance soul. The thing about this record is that it is impossible to disentangle it from that hype and in a way its become a totemic object representing all the idiosyncrasies surrounding the scene.

[Guest SteveJohnston]

That's an interesting post Steve. The Number 1 record is presumably the 7" bootleg of Freddy Butler on Kapp. Shows how potentially embarrassing it can be to review cover-ups.

Kapp 819 what a fine record it is so no shame in pushing this be it coverd or not

Kevs other records in the list

3 Cornell Blakely "i'm alive with the lovin feelin" Rich

4 Eddie Kendricks & David Ruffin "i go out of my mind VIP

5 Bobby Moore "i carefully checked you heart" KayO

6 Shelley Fisher "girl i love you" Dayla

I like you thinking on Berry buying the record back just to get a number one!

Steve J

Edited February 5, 2009 by SteveJohnston

[Tomangoes]

The point is though, its all the fanfare that goes with the record that makes it special. I agree in terms of greatness versus other motown records alone, its no better. For example My Weakness is You, Just a little Misunderstanding, Girl why do you wanna make me blue, and a lot more are just as good, but the rarity, and story about the Owner stopping its production, along with Frank Wilson himself being such a great talent and person, just give the record its elevated status.

This scene has always craved rarity over quality, and as the two points get closer those records are cherished, Gwen Owens / Don Gardner / Billy Wood etc.

Its simply one of our crown jewels and to own it makes you royalty, or at least the closest any of us lot will get to be royalty.

Whoever gets the money from the sale, I hope they send Frank Wilson a thank you letter, because if he had not made the career choice to stick to songwriting and producing, it may have been put out on general release.

I cant believe actually that Berry Gordy has not got a copy of every record stashed somewhere.

I hope this sale makes the new owner very happy. Hail the new KING (or Queen).

Ed

[Garethx]

Hi Steve

My point about the review being embarrassing wasn't that Freddie Butler isn't a quality record: it clearly is and always was.

I get annoyed when people in perceived positions of power try to lie to me. Kev's bullshit story looks no better with thirty years hindsight. It was obviously easier and more financially rewarding to manufacture and sell bootlegs than sourcing original copies of the Kapp lp and selling those. I'm not accusing KR of being behind the bootleg, but such a review helped to sell the things. At a time when the average Northern fan was much younger the actions of the few who ran the scene in those days smack of cynicism, greed and exploitation.

Certain aspects of the Northern scene will always look crazy to outsiders and in many ways the lore of the scene has been moulded by some deeply suspect characters, hence its idiosyncracies. Cover a record up by all means if you want to, but don't lie about its true identity, just keep schtum and let others work out what it is if they can.

A review like this insults the intelligence of the audience in just the same way as later, perhaps more high profile, scams.

Edited February 5, 2009 by garethx

[Pete S]

Hi Steve

My point about the review being embarrassing wasn't that Freddie Butler it isn't a quality record: it clearly is and always was.

I get annoyed when people in perceived positions of power try to lie to me. Kev's bullshit story looks no better with thirty years hindsight. It was obviously easier and more financially rewarding to manufacture and sell bootlegs of such records than sourcing original copies of the Kapp lp and selling those. I'm not accusing KR of being behind the bootleg, but such a review helped to sell the things. At a time when the average Northern fan was much younger the actions of the few who ran the scene in those days smacks of cynicism, greed and exploitation.

Certain aspects of the Northern scene will always look crazy to outsiders and in many ways the lore of the scene has been moulded by some deeply suspect characters, hence its idiosyncracies. Cover a record up by all means if you want to, but don't lie about its true identity, just keep schtum and let others work out what it is if they can.

A review like this insults the intelligence of the audience in just the same way as later, perhaps more high profile, scams.

You are so overeacting here. Every week you'd get reviews in Black Echoes from the likes of Dave McCadden who would talk about records under their cover up names. Kev is listing a record in his top 5, not trying to sell the bootleg.

And yes he did bootleg it. But thats not the point - he's not advertising and selling it in that instance.

[Pete S]

Oh and p.s. - who cares?

[Garethx]

Hi Pete

A slight overreaction maybe and reading the language again it looks pretty po-faced, so apologies for that.

Anyhow, this is off-topic and maybe better left to another thread.

[Guest SteveJohnston]

You are so overeacting here. Every week you'd get reviews in Black Echoes from the likes of Dave McCadden who would talk about records under their cover up names. Kev is listing a record in his top 5, not trying to sell the bootleg.

And yes he did bootleg it. But thats not the point - he's not advertising and selling it in that instance.

Hi Pete

I can see Garethx side on this as Kev ended his review with "so listen out for it" he should just of put phone *********

But on the other hand at that time and only buying from the odd box in record rooms and Spinning Records in Manchester the chances of buying a F/B on Kapp so i bought the boot

Steve J

Edited February 5, 2009 by SteveJohnston

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi Pete

I can see Garethx side on this as Kev ended his review with "so listen out for it" he should just of put phone *********

But on the other hand at that time and only buying from the odd box in record rooms and Spinning Records in Manchester the chances of buying a F/B on Kapp so i bought the boot

Steve J

How very dare you, you despicable criminal!

Ian D

[Guest SteveJohnston]

How very dare you, you despicable criminal!

Ian D

...............................................As soon as i get the chance

Steve J

[viphitman]

Hmmm, love this topic...

123.......123.....?????

I like the lady in the background... probably thinking.. WHAT ££££££££££ for feggin piece of plastic... my stuff is at least nice to look at and made of lovely porcelain

.....IT IS NOT AN AUCTION MARKET

How things have changed hey

[viphitman]

I also love the bit ....When Alison said........ There is nothing like touching a bit of vinyl........Maybe she is going to buy the 3rd copy then ! I wonder

New Topic...There is nothing like touching a bit of vinyl

[Chalky]

This is the original copy i.e. Simon Soussan - Les McCutcheon - Kev Roberts - Johnathan Woodliffe - Kev Roberts - Tim Brown and eventually Kenny Burrell.

Ian D

Actually Kenny's copy came from Martin Koppell (via Tim Brown) who got it from Ron Murphy. Tim has the original SS copy.

[Guest Nik Mak]

......and can you see those little pink pigs flying around in the ether LOL.......

Stop dreaming Nik and get me a Soulful House CD full of killer gems!

Ian D

Honest it's true. I'll dig out the address and post it on here!!!LOL!!! Pm me your addy Ian I'll get one off to you asap.

[Guest Nik Mak]

If I leave her in the outlet mall she won't even notice for a couple of days

Just drop her off at Sawgrass mills then pop along to the pressing plant (@ 3 miles away),pick up the small box of promo 45's of FW & be back in time to pick her up at the other end of the Mall. Sorted!

[Ian Dewhirst]

Actually Kenny's copy came from Martin Koppell (via Tim Brown) who got it from Ron Murphy. Tim has the original SS copy.

I was led to believe it was the other way around Chalky, i.e. Tim got Martin's copy which came from Ron Murphy. I understand that there's quite a difference between the two copies isn't there?

Although truth be known that's the part of the story that's still a little hazy to me. I'd ask Tim but he's away at the moment........

Ian D

Edited February 5, 2009 by Ian Dewhirst

[Ian Dewhirst]

Honest it's true. I'll dig out the address and post it on here!!!LOL!!! Pm me your addy Ian I'll get one off to you asap.

LOL, I thought you'd take the bait!

I'll PM ya. I did spend an hour or two going through those Refosoul clips on the other thread and realised in an ideal world I'd need 'em on CD.....

Good on ya NIk. Thanks a bunch fella........

Ian D

[Phild]

Just drop her off at Sawgrass mills then pop along to the pressing plant (@ 3 miles away),pick up the small box of promo 45's of FW & be back in time to pick her up at the other end of the Mall. Sorted!

Great idea. Now please just PM me the address and I'll bring a copy back for you

Phil

[Ian Dewhirst]

Great idea. Now please just PM me the address and I'll bring a copy back for you

Phil

Stranger things have happened...........

Ian D

[Kris Holmes]

It's documented that Berry G has a copy.

Sean

Really, where is the documentation?

[Sean Hampsey]

Really, where is the documentation?

Dave Godin told me years ago that as Berry owned Motown musics 'publishing' (Jobete) he would have been obliged to keep an archive (file) copy of all recorded work. "Do I Love You" is a Jobete (Berry Gordy) published work, and although EMI Music paid $132 million to Berry in 1997 for 50% of the Publishing, I doubt they'd have split his file copy in half :-)

In addition he was sure Berry kept a 'personal' copy of everything. Ian also alludes to this earlier in the thread.

Its all speculation - certainly not hard fact - but a pretty educated one I'd have said, not forgetting that Dave was very close to the inner sanctum of how things worked at Hitsville, back then.

Heard a few fans suggest that Berry will have had his own copy - and even that there are other copies of SOUL S-35019 in hardcore Motown collections. Seem to recall that Trevor Swaine wrote a fascinating article about it some 15+ years ago.

Here's someone else that thinks Berry will have had a FW:

Robb K (Soulful Detroit)

I'm SURE that Frank Wilson DIDN'T ever get a copy of Soul 35019, as only 6 copies were ever pressed (the six pressing plant test pressings. In the early '70s, I saw one copy in The Motown Record File, and one copy in The Jobete Music Record File (both were "missing" already in 1979). Berry Gordy must have had one for himself, and that already takes up half the six. Ron Murphy stated that the pressing plant always kept 2. That leaves only ONE OTHER copy floating around Motown. The record was "pulled back" even BEFORE the first DJ issue press run. Berry decided he didn't want Wilson to have a recording career at that time, as he was too valuable to Motown as a producer. They had a lot of plans for him, and moved him to Detroit (from L.A. to make that happen). No way he would have been handed one of the pressing plant masters. I doubt that he knew at the time, that the 6 records were pressed at all. He was told that his record was cancelled. He was told the same thing as Andre Williams and gino parks were told about their scheduled Miracle releases ("Sorry. Your record was cancelled.")

Guess all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

Sean

Edited February 6, 2009 by Sean Hampsey

[Kris Holmes]

Dave Godin told me years ago that as Berry owned Motown musics 'publishing' (Jobete) he would have been obliged to keep an archive (file) copy of all recorded work. "Do I Love You" is a Jobete (Berry Gordy) published work, and although EMI Music paid $132 million to Berry in 1997 for 50% of the Publishing, I doubt they'd have split his file copy in half :-)

In addition he was sure Berry kept a 'personal' copy of everything. Ian also alludes to this earlier in the thread.

Its all speculation - certainly not hard fact - but a pretty educated one I'd have said, not forgetting that Dave was very close to the inner sanctum of how things worked at Hitsville, back then.

Heard a few fans suggest that Berry will have had his own copy - and even that there are other copies of SOUL S-35019 in hardcore Motown collections. Seem to recall that Trevor Swaine wrote a fascinating article about it some 15+ years ago.

Here's someone else that thinks Berry will have had a FW:

Robb K (Soulful Detroit)

I'm SURE that Frank Wilson DIDN'T ever get a copy of Soul 35019, as only 6 copies were ever pressed (the six pressing plant test pressings. In the early '70s, I saw one copy in The Motown Record File, and one copy in The Jobete Music Record File (both were "missing" already in 1979). Berry Gordy must have had one for himself, and that already takes up half the six. Ron Murphy stated that the pressing plant always kept 2. That leaves only ONE OTHER copy floating around Motown. The record was "pulled back" even BEFORE the first DJ issue press run. Berry decided he didn't want Wilson to have a recording career at that time, as he was too valuable to Motown as a producer. They had a lot of plans for him, and moved him to Detroit (from L.A. to make that happen). No way he would have been handed one of the pressing plant masters. I doubt that he knew at the time, that the 6 records were pressed at all. He was told that his record was cancelled. He was told the same thing as Andre Williams and gino parks were told about their scheduled Miracle releases ("Sorry. Your record was cancelled.")

Guess all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

Sean

Yeah, I'm real interested to see if it is one of the 2 UK copies going up for sale, although it doesn't really sound like it from the thread. I can't imagine Berry Gordy selling his supposed copy unless he was dying or real short on cash (neither of which are the case I'd imagine) especially since he is apparently still buying pieces he doesn't have in his collection (although that comment would suggest a flaw in the theory that Berry kept a copy of everything). I'm leaning towards the idea that there may be at least 4 copies out there & this one coming up for auction could possible be the previously unknown 4th copy. The plot thickens.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Dave Godin told me years ago that as Berry owned Motown musics 'publishing' (Jobete) he would have been obliged to keep an archive (file) copy of all recorded work. "Do I Love You" is a Jobete (Berry Gordy) published work, and although EMI Music paid $132 million to Berry in 1997 for 50% of the Publishing, I doubt they'd have split his file copy in half :-)

In addition he was sure Berry kept a 'personal' copy of everything. Ian also alludes to this earlier in the thread.

Its all speculation - certainly not hard fact - but a pretty educated one I'd have said, not forgetting that Dave was very close to the inner sanctum of how things worked at Hitsville, back then.

Heard a few fans suggest that Berry will have had his own copy - and even that there are other copies of SOUL S-35019 in hardcore Motown collections. Seem to recall that Trevor Swaine wrote a fascinating article about it some 15+ years ago.

Here's someone else that thinks Berry will have had a FW:

Robb K (Soulful Detroit)

I'm SURE that Frank Wilson DIDN'T ever get a copy of Soul 35019, as only 6 copies were ever pressed (the six pressing plant test pressings. In the early '70s, I saw one copy in The Motown Record File, and one copy in The Jobete Music Record File (both were "missing" already in 1979). Berry Gordy must have had one for himself, and that already takes up half the six. Ron Murphy stated that the pressing plant always kept 2. That leaves only ONE OTHER copy floating around Motown. The record was "pulled back" even BEFORE the first DJ issue press run. Berry decided he didn't want Wilson to have a recording career at that time, as he was too valuable to Motown as a producer. They had a lot of plans for him, and moved him to Detroit (from L.A. to make that happen). No way he would have been handed one of the pressing plant masters. I doubt that he knew at the time, that the 6 records were pressed at all. He was told that his record was cancelled. He was told the same thing as Andre Williams and gino parks were told about their scheduled Miracle releases ("Sorry. Your record was cancelled.")

Guess all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

Sean

I think Berry almost certainly has one. When I met Tom Depeiro in 1976 (before Soussan got to him), Tom was good enough to show me the archive record library @ the Motown offices in L.A. and the library was meticulously organised in catalogue number order with everything beautifully filed, as was the custom in those days. I had a quick look through a couple of shelves which pretty much confirmed that everything was there - all pristine promos naturally. Tom was incredibly protective about the comprehensiveness of the library which is why I was so surprised that Simon managed to prise the Frank Wilson out of him, if only on 'loan'.

Bearing the above in mind, I think it's extremely likely that another copy would be in the Jobete Music files. It would be an automatic system in those days with at least 1 but more likely 2 copies going to the Record Company and another 1 or 2 copies going to the Publishing company whether or not the record was ever released. It's my guess that when Berry flogged Jobete to EMI he would probably have kept the Jobete archive library as well, so I guess it's possible that 2 copies are within Berry's control - even though he may not be aware of it!

Incidentaly, it's worth pointing out that Record Companies were actually a lot more efficient in those days. When I worked for Decca shortly after I came back from the States I eventually stumbled into a locked room at Decca Head Office on Albert Embankment which contained a complete run of all the U.S. and U.K. releases including all the subsidiary labels. It was an automatic process whereby the first copies off the press would always be designated for the Record Company archive, the Publisher and the rest to the A&R and Marketing Heads. In certain cases, U.S. copies would also go to their affiliate Record Companies and Publishers throughout the world, which is why, every so often, someone can stumble into a 'run' of certain labels at a record fair. I found an incredible run of Amy and Mala U.S. promos at a record fair in Wimbledon which had been rescued from the loft of a guy who was a promo guy for the U.K. publisher at the time.

Anything's possible. However, Motown was very much Berry's fiefdom at the time so the 6 copy theory is entirely possible. We know where 2 of 'em are. There's now a 3rd copy, there's a good chance that Berry has another 2 and the final copy could well be residing in the U.S. national music archives! Helluva story!

Ian D

[Eddie Hubbard]

So many stories and so many questions surrounding the FW record.

I just don't believe any story about a press run of six. I think its naive and totally unrealistic, defying any logical sense. I can buy into a test press run of 6, you know; the Jobete plain white labelled things... possibly. But we are talking about a record, that is a proper printed White Demo, similar to all other White Demos pressed on the SOUL badge. For me its inconceivable that given the set-up for label print and vinyl pressing that a quantity of 1000 to 2000 wasn't run off.

This doesn't mean to say that they were ever distributed widely to radio stations or promotional companies obviously. But I do think its almost certain that they were pressed.

In pressing plants, many workers used to take home spares and overruns for their friends and families, not supposed to, but it did happen almost everywhere.

Does anyone know where the FW discs where pressed, was it in Detroit, Nashville, Monarch or even the east coast? Lets not forget that Motown at the time were one of the largest independent record companies in the US and in 1965 were in full swing. Its my understanding, that once a record had passed Motown QA and were sent to DEMO press, that they were then despatched directly from the plants to promotional firms and stations from a standard shipping list.

If the disc was recalled after the demo press was done. Then who instructed this? Some documentation must have existed as to authorisation for the manufacturers/press plants to destroy, I can't accept that someone said, "please send all copies back to us at Motown so we can 'Skip' them here!!. Indeed, we know that 2 copies at least did leave the press plants prior to any alleged destruction of the press run as these copies exist today.

In conclusion, I believe that more copies have survived, whether it be a dozen, 100 or even the whole lot. Unless someone can produce an authorisation to scrap notice/scrap document from the press plant or unless the individuals that were actually involved either at Motown or the press plant can be tracked and confirm the story, then the possibility and the odds are stacked in favour of more copies of the disc are still in existence.

Hope someone manages to speak directly to either Berry Gordy or some of his "on the ground" staff in detail to bottom out the speculation once and for all.

In the meanwhile can anyone confirm, which pressing plant the known 2 copies originate from??

Good posting , looks like a West Coast [ styrene ] press to me , which would make sense as Frank was based there .Cheers ,Eddie

[Ian Dewhirst]

So many stories and so many questions surrounding the FW record.

I just don't believe any story about a press run of six. I think its naive and totally unrealistic, defying any logical sense. I can buy into a test press run of 6, you know; the Jobete plain white labelled things... possibly. But we are talking about a record, that is a proper printed White Demo, similar to all other White Demos pressed on the SOUL badge. For me its inconceivable that given the set-up for label print and vinyl pressing that a quantity of 1000 to 2000 wasn't run off.

This doesn't mean to say that they were ever distributed widely to radio stations or promotional companies obviously. But I do think its almost certain that they were pressed.

In pressing plants, many workers used to take home spares and overruns for their friends and families, not supposed to, but it did happen almost everywhere.

Does anyone know where the FW discs where pressed, was it in Detroit, Nashville, Monarch or even the east coast? Lets not forget that Motown at the time were one of the largest independent record companies in the US and in 1965 were in full swing. Its my understanding, that once a record had passed Motown QA and were sent to DEMO press, that they were then despatched directly from the plants to promotional firms and stations from a standard shipping list.

If the disc was recalled after the demo press was done. Then who instructed this? Some documentation must have existed as to authorisation for the manufacturers/press plants to destroy, I can't accept that someone said, "please send all copies back to us at Motown so we can 'Skip' them here!!. Indeed, we know that 2 copies at least did leave the press plants prior to any alleged destruction of the press run as these copies exist today.

In conclusion, I believe that more copies have survived, whether it be a dozen, 100 or even the whole lot. Unless someone can produce an authorisation to scrap notice/scrap document from the press plant or unless the individuals that were actually involved either at Motown or the press plant can be tracked and confirm the story, then the possibility and the odds are stacked in favour of more copies of the disc are still in existence.

Hope someone manages to speak directly to either Berry Gordy or some of his "on the ground" staff in detail to bottom out the speculation once and for all.

In the meanwhile can anyone confirm, which pressing plant the known 2 copies originate from??

I'd pretty much agree with everything you said there Andy, if it wasn't for the fact that the record has been one of the most sought-after records for the last 30 odd years on one of world's most successful independent labels, yet no more than 2 copies have managed to surface in that whole period of time, until the 3rd one popped up just now.

This is despite every virtually single record collector and dealer in the world scouring the planet for the record since '77 or thereabouts. I think I'm safe in saying that this record is the exception to the rule for a major label. I'm sure more copies would have surfaced by now had they been around to find........

Also bear in mind the dedicated Motown collectors who have also been investigating every single alleyway and none of them have managed to unearth one despite their contacts. It's a much smaller world these days and anyone remotely interested in rare records could hardly have failed to hear about Frank Wilson, so I think it's safe to assume that the record is an extreme rarity.....

But I'm curious myself about where the record was pressed and if anyone has any further knowledge as to how the events unfolded resulting in the record getting scrapped - I'm writing an article about all this so the more info the better.......

I might give Berry a call this afternoon if I can squeeze him in.........

Ian D

[Young Brett]

Whatever somebody pays for it;

Just imagine the trip to the states, record hunting, you could have. For the price this will eventually go for....you could fly first class....stay in the best hotels...rent the best car for the trip....Buy ***thousands of records***...(the best lap dancers.) ...All the fun of the weeks of research when you get back on the hoards of records you shipped back home. Playing all the unknown tracks(at least to you) that you have purchased.....not forgetting all the fun and excitement of the trip....

...Or you could sit at home, thinking to yourself..."I AM (the self proclaimed) KING OF SOUL COLLECTORS, FOR IT IS ,I, AND I ALONE WHOM OWNS THE GRRRRAIL OF SOUL. ALRIGHT, PERHAPS NOT....But i could think of a lot more to spend my money on than just one record!! couldn't you??

id rather go on the big record hunt than pay a lot of money on one record. its nice to pay out the money for a big record but there is a lot of records that get the crowd dancing all across the country that are less than £200!

IMO I think this will go for £28k IMO

all the best,

'young Brett'

[Rich B]

I'd pretty much agree with everything you said there Andy, if it wasn't for the fact that the record has been one of the most sought-after records for the last 30 odd years on one of world's most successful independent labels, yet no more than 2 copies have managed to surface in that whole period of time, until the 3rd one popped up just now.

This is despite every virtually single record collector and dealer in the world scouring the planet for the record since '77 or thereabouts. I think I'm safe in saying that this record is the exception to the rule for a major label. I'm sure more copies would have surfaced by now had they been around to find........

Also bear in mind the dedicated Motown collectors who have also been investigating every single alleyway and none of them have managed to unearth one despite their contacts. It's a much smaller world these days and anyone remotely interested in rare records could hardly have failed to hear about Frank Wilson, so I think it's safe to assume that the record is an extreme rarity.....

But I'm curious myself about where the record was pressed and if anyone has any further knowledge as to how the events unfolded resulting in the record getting scrapped - I'm writing an article about all this so the more info the better.......

I might give Berry a call this afternoon if I can squeeze him in.........

Ian D

The copy Jonathan loaned me to photocopy (we didn't have scanners back then! and I didn't tell him I intended to photocopy it) was the usual flexible vinyl, but sadly I can't remember any of the stamps/matrix numbers.

I was recording a Billy proctor on Soul recently though and the stamp was AJP(?) or that's what it looked like to me. All my recollections of the copy I borrowed was that it was just as unremarkable as any other "Soul" release I already owned. Nothing to single it out in terms of manufacture.

Best,

RB

[Guest newone]

I think Berry almost certainly has one. When I met Tom Depeiro in 1976 (before Soussan got to him), Tom was good enough to show me the archive record library @ the Motown offices in L.A. and the library was meticulously organised in catalogue number order with everything beautifully filed, as was the custom in those days. I had a quick look through a couple of shelves which pretty much confirmed that everything was there - all pristine promos naturally. Tom was incredibly protective about the comprehensiveness of the library which is why I was so surprised that Simon managed to prise the Frank Wilson out of him, if only on 'loan'.

Bearing the above in mind, I think it's extremely likely that another copy would be in the Jobete Music files. It would be an automatic system in those days with at least 1 but more likely 2 copies going to the Record Company and another 1 or 2 copies going to the Publishing company whether or not the record was ever released. It's my guess that when Berry flogged Jobete to EMI he would probably have kept the Jobete archive library as well, so I guess it's possible that 2 copies are within Berry's control - even though he may not be aware of it!

Incidentaly, it's worth pointing out that Record Companies were actually a lot more efficient in those days. When I worked for Decca shortly after I came back from the States I eventually stumbled into a locked room at Decca Head Office on Albert Embankment which contained a complete run of all the U.S. and U.K. releases including all the subsidiary labels. It was an automatic process whereby the first copies off the press would always be designated for the Record Company archive, the Publisher and the rest to the A&R and Marketing Heads. In certain cases, U.S. copies would also go to their affiliate Record Companies and Publishers throughout the world, which is why, every so often, someone can stumble into a 'run' of certain labels at a record fair. I found an incredible run of Amy and Mala U.S. promos at a record fair in Wimbledon which had been rescued from the loft of a guy who was a promo guy for the U.K. publisher at the time.

Anything's possible. However, Motown was very much Berry's fiefdom at the time so the 6 copy theory is entirely possible. We know where 2 of 'em are. There's now a 3rd copy, there's a good chance that Berry has another 2 and the final copy could well be residing in the U.S. national music archives! Helluva story!

Ian D

i work for a book publisher, one copy of every book we do is filed in the archive, but we also have to send copies to the copywrite society for obvious reasons, does anything exist in the record industry like this, i can understand a small local label not bothering to follow this, thus when one or two copies only exist its understandable, but big companies must have had something in place to protect them

[Garethx]

Andy's post is a good one, but the point about the actual number of copies pressed is one of pure speculation.

Record pressing at the time wasn't like offset litho printing: it wasn't a case of stopping a machine while it was spewing out hundreds of copies of any item: stampers could be used one at a time for vinyl records (I believe styrene pressing is a different process: the plastic is injected into the stamping mould rather than placed by hand onto the pressing surface). It is and was eminently possible to press single copies of records: there is a fascinating website dedicated to one-off pressings of records; mostly coloured or composite coloured vinyl pressings done privately by pressing plant workers of records they took a particular shine to or by artists they were fans of. It's possible that pressing plant workers pressed 'overs' of the Frank Wilson record but given that he was an unknown at the time unlikely.

If the order from Motown was for six copies then six copies plus one or two for the factory files would have been pressed. Once the order came through from Motown for the pressing run to be abandoned the stampers would have been destroyed and maybe the file copies too.

Edited February 6, 2009 by garethx