Frank Wilson On Soul Auction

[Baz Atkinson]

Heard a nod and a wink that a famous Dubai collector is interested ,hes gonna stick it on the shelf with his diamond encrusted phone and kakas !underwear!

BAZ A

[billb]

So are you saying I didn't misunderstand him? And someone will pay £25k for something that they're not interested in and don't have a grasp of its heritage?

Not being difficult here, but I just don't get the logic. Surely for that much cash you could buy some other one-off artifact that would have a lot more kudos in the big wide world of collecting?

I think I understood Boba's point?

I understand the overplayed argument but when all said and done, it's arguably the most popular / famous Northern Soul record ever.

Like an original oil painting or any other work of art, this is the original, not like my UK TMG copy and there are only two known copies of this work of art.

£25K is only a quarter of a weeks wage for a top pro footballer.

I'm just agreeing that with the amount of interest in it (we're discussing it now and it's not even in the shop window yet) it will surpass £25K

I may be wrong (it won't be the first time) but we'll see?

Edited January 31, 2009 by billb

[Guest Matt Male]

With Kenny's name on it too that would be like marrying a woman with her ex-husbands name tatooed on her arm.

Is this the one btw?

Not sure i'd pay that amount of money for a 45 with the previous owners name on it. Everytime you took it out you would realise a little part of it was still Kenny Burrell...

Maybe all the people who declared it a classic on the Frank Wilson thread will club together to buy it?

Edited January 31, 2009 by Matt Male

[Cunnie]

Wonder if John will list it in his 'Drop Down Bargain Hunt'

Normally does with stuff in this condition

[Guest CapitolSC]

I always mind whilst running a soul night with Kenny in Edinburgh. Anyway Kenny stayed in Fife and got caught short on his way home. and stopped at a closed down petol station.

Got back in the car and when he got home, his full box of records where gone and if I mind right Frank Wilson was in there.

Anyway he phoned another friend they met and searched and found the box in the bushes ready for collecting by the passer buy who lifted them out of the car.

Bet the guy wished he had carried them straight home!!

They nicked his cardigan too. I think he told me he never got that back.

If you did nick Kenny's box how on earth would you get away with selling the contents?

[Guest]

I'm guessing motown didn't test press 6 copies of the record so that DJs from the UK could import two known copies and play them in their club.

No but as I already said, they intentionally melted them all down, and only two survived the purge, one was Motown's own file copy, and the other was Bille Jean Brown's originally.

[chrissie]

Guess it'll be going back home stateside...........................to a certain DJ of a caucasion (spelling) persuasion.........................................I reckon

Cheers Paul

If you are inferring to who I think you are, I think that would be great as at least it would not go out of the "soul circle" so to speak and may even get an airing on the decks now and again

QoFxx

[sepia]

SPOKE TO KENNY TONIGHT & SAID HE WAS THE TALK OF THE TOWN FOR SELLING FRANK WILSON.

HE SAID & I QUOTE I DONT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SELLING F/W.

MANSHIP SAID NOW IS THE TIME TO SELL,WITH IT BEIGN 50YEARS OF MOTOWN.

KENNY SAID I WOULD SELL IT FOR A SUICIDAL PRICE,WHICH COULD BE ANY PRICE.

SO @ THE END OF THE DAY IT IS NOT FOR SALE.

YOU HEARD IT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH.

[Guest]

Well to this day, no-one has found another copy apart from the two.

Talk is cheap, and Frank did say that Berry Gordy intentionally melted them all down.

During a visit to 2648 in 1980 , I asked Esther Edwards about the validity of there being more copies of FW .

She told me that , as far as she was aware - and as you state Ian - BG had them destroyed , and if - IF - there were any surviving copies ( which she doubted , as she knew BG would have ensured all were destroyed ) , they would be at Ray Henderson's Progress Distributors in Southfield .

She phone PD and spoke with RH whilst I was in her office , and asked him if he held any copies : the answer was NO ........

Malc Burton

[Guest denmac]

if my memory exists,this reminds me of a stamp sale that took place years ago. the winner payed zillions for the stamp only to tear it up thus doubling the value of the only other one,,,,that he had!!. lookout for the other owner"""

[boba]

No but as I already said, they intentionally melted them all down, and only two survived the purge, one was Motown's own file copy, and the other was Bille Jean Brown's originally.

my "6 copies test pressed" story comes from Ron Murphy, who posted the story a bunch of times on soulfuldetroit. he seemed to have pretty good knowledge about record pressing (given what he did) and how motown worked in its production process, but who knows the real story now...

[Jaco]

my "6 copies test pressed" story comes from Ron Murphy, who posted the story a bunch of times on soulfuldetroit. he seemed to have pretty good knowledge about record pressing (given what he did) and how motown worked in its production process, but who knows the real story now...

Didn't Ron Murphy sell the other known copy (the one that Kenny Burrell owns) to Martin Koppel, in the first place?

Is it known how he acquired his copy and when, at the time it was pressed or later?

[Chalky]

Won't Frank Wilson himself want it? Or was the $30.000 he offered yet another urban myth?

I'd like it in order to add to my Motown Demo shelf but I think Bev might balk at having to eat soup and crackers for the next few years!

Yes it is an urban myth, he offered Kenny $50,000 for it Was with Kenny last night and he said he wasn't selling FW but had been approached especially with this being the 50th Anniversary of Motown and all the attention it is getting. Kenny also said that if he was selling it, it would take a ridiculous sum to prize it from him, at least the book valuation of JM of £25,000

PS Just read Sepia's post

Edited February 1, 2009 by chalky

[Chalky]

Didn't Ron Murphy sell the other known copy (the one that Kenny Burrell owns) to Martin Koppel, in the first place?

Is it known how he acquired his copy and when, at the time it was pressed or later?

Ron Murphy apparently placed an advert in the local press seeking former workers of the pressing plant that did the FW. One came forward with a copy. Sure Ron said 6 were pressed and ordered to be destroyed. Obviously not all were destroyed so who's to say the rest are not out there somewhere

[Pauldonnelly]

I'm amazed its going to auction.

[Guest wigantojapan]

I'm amazed its going to auction.

The Aberdeen All nighter might be ther last place its ever played

[Tomangoes]

I dont know Kenny, but I do feel sorry for him if he has to sell due to financial reasons.

Its not as if someone has come along and made an offer he could'nt refuse (although I would have thought the reserve will be £20k).

Like a lot of soul-sources, I have sold 90% of my collection over the years, but that last 10% will never go (I hope anyway).

I actually think its worth and will make £50k. As a few others have said its so famous (It was even played at Half Time at Rotherham United yesterday!!)that any self respecting soul loving millionaire will have to have it.

If I was J Manship, I would have had it end at midnight on a Saturday night when the beer is flowing. Inhabitions on loosening the purse string are always easier at that scenario.

A sign of these sad times indeed.

Ed

[Guest]

Didn't Ron Murphy sell the other known copy (the one that Kenny Burrell owns) to Martin Koppel, in the first place?

Is it known how he acquired his copy and when, at the time it was pressed or later?

It was Billie Jean Brown's copy originally.

There really were only two.

Any whispers of any more copies are just an urban myth. And baseless. Tom DePierro owned the other copy, and he confirmed this to me when he was still alive.

[Eddie Hubbard]

It was Billie Jean Brown's copy originally.

There really were only two.

Any whispers of any more copies are just an urban myth. And baseless. Tom DePierro owned the other copy, and he confirmed this to me when he was still alive.

Who is Billie Jean Brown , Ian ? Thanks ,Eddie

[Tabs]

Hi Ed,

Was head of Motown quality department in the 60's.

Presumably at the time during which DILY was recorded.

Who is Billie Jean Brown , Ian ? Thanks ,Eddie

[Kev Moore]

Ron Murphy apparently placed an advert in the local press seeking former workers of the pressing plant that did the FW. One came forward with a copy. Sure Ron said 6 were pressed and ordered to be destroyed. Obviously not all were destroyed so who's to say the rest are not out there somewhere

I always presumed that at the quality control meeting they would play acetates. If this is true how come the f/w demos got pressed.

What was the common practice?

Heard that Berry Gordy asked Frank Wilson if he wanted to persue a career with Motown as a writer rather than an artist but was that after DILYIID had passed some sort of quality control?

Were there other Tamla/Motown/Soul/Gordy etc songs that got pressed then never gained a release and were trashed?

Just curious

Kev

[Eddie Hubbard]

Hi Ed,

Was head of Motown quality department in the 60's.

Presumably at the time during which DILY was recorded.

Cheers Tabs , you learn something new every day !! Best,Eddie

[45cellar]

I always presumed that at the quality control meeting they would play acetates. If this is true how come the f/w demos got pressed.

What was the common practice?

Heard that Berry Gordy asked Frank Wilson if he wanted to persue a career with Motown as a writer rather than an artist but was that after DILYIID had passed some sort of quality control?

Were there other Tamla/Motown/Soul/Gordy etc songs that got pressed then never gained a release and were trashed?

Just curious

Kev

If a known amount pressed then possibly easier to control.

LIKE A NIGHTMARE - THE ANDANTES ?

How many copies pressed & destroyed.

Are we definitely talking being Melted Down, Committed to Landfill, OR ?

We may care now, but back in the 60's would they take time to find out.

Strange things can happen in a large organization.

Regarding Motown, Certain Printing Errors Appear to have Escaped Quality Control.

I'm sure I have read somewhere that Record Companies in the U.K.

used to simply Dump Stuff, Later to be retrieved by people.

Edited February 1, 2009 by 45cellar

[Pete S]

Back about 7 years ago, I was trawling the net and came across a website where the sellers said they had a copy of every record to enter the US charts and also a rarities section and in the rarities section was a copy of The Andantes at $1200. I'm sure I mentioned this to John or Ian Levine or someone...I hadn't got enough money to buy it, when I went back a couple of days later it had gone. I swear this story is true.

[Mick Reed]

I reckon it'll sell for around 8 grand

yep ill agree to that pete.

[Chalky]

I dont know Kenny, but I do feel sorry for him if he has to sell due to financial reasons.

Its not as if someone has come along and made an offer he could'nt refuse (although I would have thought the reserve will be £20k).

Like a lot of soul-sources, I have sold 90% of my collection over the years, but that last 10% will never go (I hope anyway).

I actually think its worth and will make £50k. As a few others have said its so famous (It was even played at Half Time at Rotherham United yesterday!!)that any self respecting soul loving millionaire will have to have it.

If I was J Manship, I would have had it end at midnight on a Saturday night when the beer is flowing. Inhabitions on loosening the purse string are always easier at that scenario.

A sign of these sad times indeed.

Ed

Kenny doesn't have to sell for financial reasons and its already been said that if he was to sell it it would take more than £25k to prize it off him.

[Rob Wigley]

Love this thread, DILY-IID, is a record that's a bit like Marmite, you either love it or hate it,

it has been controversial from the day it was played at the Casino. I doubt if there is one collector on here who would not like to acutally own it, including myself...but we are looking at the wrong end of a YEARS wages to get it, so failing a lottery win its out of the question.

This record will actually sell quite cheaply if Kenny crumbles.

It will be going back to the USA, as the $ to £ rate is to the US collectors advantage at the moment so a price of $35,000 is probably $15,000 cheaper than they would have paid last year.

You also have to take into account John's commission on the deal, (how about a TV prog. "Manship's real deal ?" -sorry john !)

But there are winners all the way around what ever happens

1) John has listed it for sale for the first time ever (?)

2) Kenny sells and makes a nice profit

3) Kenny turns down the largest ammount ever offered for a soul 45 in the world

4) Michael Jackson gets involved to piss off Berry Gordy and buys it through his Saudi mates

5) Tim Brown buys it and snaps it in half (see Den Macs post)

6) Ian Levine (hello Ian) brings in a TV production crew and we have a hours channel 4 special (no at daft as it seems, is it? -I want a bonus if you do it) and the sound track is in place.

7) The Media converge on Melton Mowbray for the final results, the Mayor of Melton bestows the freedom of the pie town on John

So I am watching this with great interest- "reality Record dealing" at its best

Love it !

Rob

Edited February 1, 2009 by Karen and Rob Wigley

[Chris L]

SPOKE TO KENNY TONIGHT & SAID HE WAS THE TALK OF THE TOWN FOR SELLING FRANK WILSON.

HE SAID & I QUOTE I DONT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SELLING F/W.

MANSHIP SAID NOW IS THE TIME TO SELL,WITH IT BEIGN 50YEARS OF MOTOWN.

KENNY SAID I WOULD SELL IT FOR A SUICIDAL PRICE,WHICH COULD BE ANY PRICE.

SO @ THE END OF THE DAY IT IS NOT FOR SALE.

YOU HEARD IT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH.

You know, is it that important? Meethinks not, the NS scene is about more than 1 record, albeit a cracker.

[Marc Forrest]

it all depends on how much frank wilson is willing to pay for it

50.000 USD was his last offer

[Marc Forrest]

50.000 USD was his last offer

Just saw Chalkys identical information...although this offer I am referring to was made to TB...

[Guest MBarrett]

A couple of thoughts on this.

1. Take as given that the seller is totally mercenary - wants to realise the maximum price for the record - no qualms as to whether the record stays in the soul community or goes in a vault (to be sold again in the Motown centenary year?)

Would it best to sell it "within" the community i.e. John Manship, or through the likes of Sotheby's/Christies who hold regular auctions of music memorabilia and artefacts. These auction houses doubtless have personal relations with the highest rollers on the planet.

Or is a record like this too "niche" for someone who might spend obscene amounts on Beatles, Hendrix etc. etc. rarities?

2. It seems common knowledge that one of these 2 records was stolen - and names have been named quite openly on this forum.

How come no-one ever had their collar felt??!!

MB

[Chalky]

Just saw Chalkys identical information...although this offer I am referring to was made to TB...

He must have made the offer to both of them.

[Marc Forrest]

He must have made the offer to both of them.

Which just goes to show how much serious he must have been about it.

[Tony Smith]

I always presumed that at the quality control meeting they would play acetates. If this is true how come the f/w demos got pressed.

What was the common practice?

Heard that Berry Gordy asked Frank Wilson if he wanted to persue a career with Motown as a writer rather than an artist but was that after DILYIID had passed some sort of quality control?

Were there other Tamla/Mwn/Soul/Gordy etc songs that got pressed then never gained a release and were trashed?

Just curious

Kev

Hi Kev, I think the quality control referred to pressed records, over the years i've only seen this stamp on the finished product including Tims' copy, I've a Dalton Boys issue which is stamped and annotated with the same handwriting as FW. Acetates are pre-production and of all the ones I've seen I don't remeber seeing the QC stamp on any of them.

[Spanner]

1) John has listed it for sale for the first time ever (?)

2) Kenny sells and makes a nice profit

3) Kenny turns down the largest ammount ever offered for a soul 45 in the world

4) Michael Jackson gets involved to piss off Berry Gordy and buys it through his Saudi mates

5) Tim Brown buys it and snaps it in half (see Den Macs post)

6) Ian Levine (hello Ian) brings in a TV production crew and we have a hours channel 4 special (no at daft as it seems, is it? -I want a bonus if you do it) and the sound track is in place.

7) The Media converge on Melton Mowbray for the final results, the Mayor of Melton bestows the freedom of the pie town on John

So I am watching this with great interest- "reality Record dealing" at its best

Love it !

Rob

[Lenny Harkins]

i hope the big man gets plenty for it.....balls of steel buying it in the first place...time for somebody else to pick up the flag.

good luck big fulla

[Guest soulboy]

If this is the most hated record on the scene why all the interest ? as a dj with the tamla motown TMG 1170 issue am i allowed to play it ?

[Guest]

It seems common knowledge that one of these 2 records was stolen - and names have been named quite openly on this forum.

How come no-one ever had their collar felt??!!

MB

Because Tom DePierro died while still labouring under the illusion that Simon Soussan was still going to return it one day, refusing to believe that Simon had sold it to Les McCutcheon, who then went on to sell it to Tim Brown.

[Guest]

If this is the most hated record on the scene why all the interest ? as a dj with the tamla motown TMG 1170 issue am i allowed to play it ?

Do you think the Soul Police will swoop down and arrest you if you dare to play it at a gig ??

Remember is IS the legitimate first UK release, on Motown's official UK label. It's not even a reissue, it's a first UK release.

[Guest MBarrett]

Because Tom DePierro died while still labouring under the illusion that Simon Soussan was still going to return it one day, refusing to believe that Simon had sold it to Les McCutcheon, who then went on to sell it to Tim Brown.

Thanks Ian.

Was it DePierro's personal property or did it still technically belong to Motown? I suppose, despite the value, it would have been an impossibility for anyone to gain a prosecution, recover stolen property etc. etc.

How did that copy get it's warp? I have only ever seen it described as a mishap

MB

[boba]

not being part of the scene, I'm sort of confused given these two copies, how the record got played in the first place. Was it 'discovered' via one of these two copies, via an acetate, etc.? thanks.

[Russ Vickers]

not being part of the scene, I'm sort of confused given these two copies, how the record got played in the first place. Was it 'discovered' via one of these two copies, via an acetate, etc.? thanks.

Who's version of events do you want Bob................ .........I wait with baited breath to see if we get the real version or a definitive there of .

Russ

[Guest]

Because Tom DePierro died while still labouring under the illusion that Simon Soussan was still going to return it one day, refusing to believe that Simon had sold it to Les McCutcheon, who then went on to sell it to Tim Brown.

A very nice guy called Jonathan Woodliffe owned the record for an age, Les McCutcheon didn't sell the warped copy to Tim Brown.

You are correct the other copy is badly warped, I played it on my Technics decks when Tim presented 20 45s for an early Price Guide we did. That copy threw the needle straight off the record, it was badly twisted.

there is only one Frank Wilson you can play and one Frank Wilson you could "wear".

Edited February 2, 2009 by john manship

[Guest Bearsy]

A very nice guy called Jonathan Woodliffe owned the record for an age, Les McCutcheon didn't sell the warped copy to Tim Brown.

You are correct the other copy is badly warped, I played it on my Technics decks when Tim presented 20 45s for an early Price Guide we did. That copy threw the needle straight off the record, it was badly twisted.

there is only one Frank Wilson you can play and one Frank Wilson you could "wear".

So is either one up for auction with you soon John

[Guest moggy]

I would think it would easily reach £25k plus

There are a lot of people out there with money, and we know the scene has had its fair share of lottery winners, also something this rare and Motown related would not the big guns like "Hard Rock Cafe" take an interest.

I mean come on, a half descent car can cost you £25k so for something so rare, well I think its cheap

So fook it I think it will go for a lot more.

[grant]

had a look on jm auction cant see FW on there? am i missing summat?

but there are some nice stuff on there at the mo, including two of my all time faves :-

Charles Brandy

Executive 4

Also,

Mousie and Traps

Sandi Sheldon demo

Cheryl Ann

Joanne Courcy

International GTOs

Frankie Beverely + Butlers

Jimmy Hart

Lewis Clark

Christine Cooper

and a very strange one by The Free - Taking It Away (Dutch band) Phillips. I had one of these that i got on ebay for next to nothing, sold it for even less a couple of years back, cant understand why its up for auction, didnt thinsk it was particularly rare.

[Guest chorleybloke]

I think it's had thirty one years of people looking for it, and there are still only the two original copies.

People are not paying for the music - you can get that on a CD for a tenner. They're paying for the rarity of the edition.

It is my belief, having been involved in this mad circus for forty years, that if another copy was going to surface, it would have done so by now, so yes, it will never come up for auction again until Tim Brown passes away.

I would think someone from Japan or Germany will end up paying the most for it.

Funnily enough, the only record I know to equal it in sheer rarity is Jim Gilstrap's wonderful "Run Run Run", on Bell issue, which I stupidly STUPIDLY sold to Tim Brown for eight hundred quid, and again, to this day, there are only two copies known about in the entire world.

Wouldn't rule out the Aussies

[Guest]

had a look on jm auction cant see FW on there? am i missing summat?

but there are some nice stuff on there at the mo, including two of my all time faves :-

Charles Brandy

Executive 4

Also,

Mousie and Traps

Sandi Sheldon demo

Cheryl Ann

Joanne Courcy

International GTOs

Frankie Beverely + Butlers

Jimmy Hart

Lewis Clark

Christine Cooper

and a very strange one by The Free - Taking It Away (Dutch band) Phillips. I had one of these that i got on ebay for next to nothing, sold it for even less a couple of years back, cant understand why its up for auction, didnt thinsk it was particularly rare.

"and a very strange one by The Free - Taking It Away (Dutch band) Phillips. I had one of these that i got on ebay for next to nothing, sold it for even less a couple of years back, cant understand why its up for auction, didnt thinsk it was particularly rare"

I perfectly understand your comments as on the rare soul scene items are percieved auction or set-sale catagories.

Our intention with the auction each week is to cover as many people budgets and collecting interests as possible. We don't allow our ego to get in the way of good business decisions.

It is our experience, we have found it's good business to list up to 20 items each week that make good reading, eye-catching viewing and above all good listening. Our sole aim is to make it interesting and involve as many collectors as possible.

I felt FREE was a forgotten NS goodie that people would enjoy listening to, we don't care if it sells for £9 or £90, but we do care about broadening our customer base and presenting an interesting auction page collectors want to visit.

We've got rare SKA, Prog Rock, Elvis, Beatles, doo-wop, rock-a-billy all manner of things just sitting around waiting for the right medium to sell them through. So customer base is our aim, plus the cheaper end of offerings, allows those on a budget to take part. Hey it's fun, there is no reason collectors to judge a record, auction material or set-sale... interesting and informative is our aim, I do hope we go a little way providing that.

john

[Ady Potts]

..............Funnily enough, the only record I know to equal it in sheer rarity is Jim Gilstrap's wonderful "Run Run Run", on Bell issue, which I stupidly STUPIDLY sold to Tim Brown for eight hundred quid, and again, to this day, there are only two copies known about in the entire world.

Hi Ian,

Well nows your chance to get it back, Tim Brown has just put it up for auction on his list, £800 kick off

https://www.raresoulvinyl.co.uk/auctions.asp

Regards,

Ady

Edited February 2, 2009 by pottsy

[Gasher]

WTF I dont see it ????

gashwer

Hi Ian,

Well nows your chance to get it back, Tim Brown has just put it up for auction on his list, £800 kick off

https://www.raresoulvinyl.co.uk/auctions.asp

Regards,

Ady