Guest Matt Male Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I'm starting to get confused as to which copy is which. So: Tim Brown's copy is from Martin Koppel, which he in turn got from Ron Murphy, which Ron got from a former mananger at Motown? Kenny Burrell's copy came from Tim Brown, who bought it from Kev Roberts, who got it from Jon Woodcliffe, who got it from Les McCutcheon, who got it from Simon Soussan when he sold up, who in turn stole/borrowed it from Tom DePierro?
Guest Matt Male Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 This thread is brilliant. Its just got me thinking... What if a BBC 1 off documentary on the 50th anniversary of Motown ... IN SEARCH OF THE SOULFUL GRAIL, THE WORLD MOST EXPENSIVE RECORD!... You know the sort of thing,,, uncovering the story of the making of Do I Love You, tracking down and interviewing Berry Gordy and his staff at Motown, Frank Wilson himself, the Sousan angle, Kenny Burrell and the Northern Scene impact, culminating in an ex-motown studion cleaner aged 85 sitting on a boxful of issues and a dozen demos!!!!!! KILLER VIEWING OR WHAT!!!! I agree, definately a programme for collectors of anything, but especially vinyl.
Neil Rushton Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I'm starting to get confused as to which copy is which. So: Tim Brown's copy is from Martin Koppel, which he in turn got from Ron Murphy, which Ron got from a former mananger at Motown? Kenny Burrell's copy came from Tim Brown, who bought it from Kev Roberts, who got it from Jon Woodcliffe, who got it from Les McCutcheon, who got it from Simon Soussan when he sold up, who in turn stole/borrowed it from Tom DePierro? No, Tim Brown copy came from Kev Roberts who got it from Joanthan, who got it from Les etc.
Ian Dewhirst Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 This thread is brilliant. Its just got me thinking... What if a BBC 1 off documentary on the 50th anniversary of Motown ... IN SEARCH OF THE SOULFUL GRAIL, THE WORLD MOST EXPENSIVE RECORD!... You know the sort of thing,,, uncovering the story of the making of Do I Love You, tracking down and interviewing Berry Gordy and his staff at Motown, Frank Wilson himself, the Sousan angle, Kenny Burrell and the Northern Scene impact, culminating in an ex-motown studion cleaner aged 85 sitting on a boxful of issues and a dozen demos!!!!!! KILLER VIEWING OR WHAT!!!! If it carries on like this, there'll certainly be a documentary on the auction of the record as, in record collecting terms, it's without a doubt the biggest story of the year, if not the millenium. I think the only things which have come close over the last few years have been the Quarrymen acetate (with 3 of the Beatles) and the Velvet Underground album acetate (with different mixes). However, I think Frank Wilson has much more of a story and probably has a wider appeal since it's effectively been in the public domain for 30 odd years and has even been beamed into everyone's living room via the Kentucky Fried Chicken adverts from a few years back. Plus the tale of the record kinda has everything - skullduggery, bootlegging, thievery, a selection of the world's most rabid collectors, that 15K price tag and the record itself which is 100% prime Northern Soul on the ultimate label. What's not to like? Killer viewing as you say Andy! This one will run and run........ Ian D
Ian Dewhirst Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 mmmmmmmm might not be too far fetched. Barney Ales once said that he had several copies of Frank Wilson's "Do I Love You" - which, prior to him learning of its value to collectors, his wife sold at a Garage sale. Sean To say nothing about Berry Gordy's personal archive which is currently in temperature-controlled storage in L.A...........! Ian D
Sean Hampsey Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 If it carries on like this, there'll certainly be a documentary on the auction of the record as, in record collecting terms, it's without a doubt the biggest story of the year, if not the millenium. I think the only things which have come close over the last few years have been the Quarrymen acetate (with 3 of the Beatles) and the Velvet Underground album acetate (with different mixes). However, I think Frank Wilson has much more of a story and probably has a wider appeal since it's effectively been in the public domain for 30 odd years and has even been beamed into everyone's living room via the Kentucky Fried Chicken adverts from a few years back. Plus the tale of the record kinda has everything - skullduggery, bootlegging, thievery, a selection of the world's most rabid collectors, that 15K price tag and the record itself which is 100% prime Northern Soul on the ultimate label. What's not to like? Killer viewing as you say Andy! This one will run and run........ Ian D First draft of the Press Release, Ian? Sean
Sean Hampsey Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 To say nothing about Berry Gordy's personal archive which is currently in temperature-controlled storage in L.A...........! Ian D It's documented that Berry G has a copy. Sean
Phild Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 You said it Phil. Vinyl prices are in decline at the moment (as are most things) and I guess this is why Pete speculates it would make less than half of what it previously sold for. Reckon you should put your £25k bid in if you really want the record - and my guess is you'd win it. As for where to put your money for a better return - I've been advised that September 09 would be the best time to invest in property. Meanwhile, if you're self employed... in a downturn market, it pays to advertise! Sean I don't think I'd risk it. Maybe more will turn up now I'm just thinking of speculating in a couple of buy to let gaffs at the minute. maybe I'll wait until September Phil
Guest Matt Male Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) No, Tim Brown copy came from Kev Roberts who got it from Joanthan, who got it from Les etc. Ah, so it's the other way around? Tim sold the Ron Murphy copy to Kenny? So Tim Brown has had both copies through his hands? Edited February 3, 2009 by Matt Male
Guest Nik Mak Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I agree, definately a programme for collectors of anything, but especially vinyl. Just to add more fire to the flames.... Back in 91 I lived in Fort lauderdale Florida. I was writing songs and recording them one of which I decided to press up on vinyl. After asking a few bods at the local DJ Store I was directed to a small factory pressing plant just outside FL. on Federal Highway. They pressed up 1000 12" singles for me which sounded great. I asked the old guy there how long he had been in business he told me over 20 years. He also told me that during the mid 60's right up to the late 70's he had pressed up a lot of the Motown releases. Now I know this is probably a long shot but he had a wall covered in Soul/Tamla 45's Demos in his office, maybe he's still there.....
Ian Dewhirst Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 First draft of the Press Release, Ian? Sean LOL, you know me too well Sean! However, it always helps a born bullshitter if there's actually a REAL story! Ian D
Sean Hampsey Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I don't think I'd risk it. Maybe more will turn up now I'm just thinking of speculating in a couple of buy to let gaffs at the minute. maybe I'll wait until September Phil Wise move mate. Sean
Phild Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Just to add more fire to the flames.... Back in 91 I lived in Fort lauderdale Florida. I was writing songs and recording them one of which I decided to press up on vinyl. After asking a few bods at the local DJ Store I was directed to a small factory pressing plant just outside FL. on Federal Highway. They pressed up 1000 12" singles for me which sounded great. I asked the old guy there how long he had been in business he told me over 20 years. He also told me that during the mid 60's right up to the late 70's he had pressed up a lot of the Motown releases. Now I know this is probably a long shot but he had a wall covered in Soul/Tamla 45's Demos in his office, maybe he's still there..... I'm off to Florida in a few weeks. Would you like me to check? Phil - Happy To Help!
Ian Dewhirst Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Just to add more fire to the flames.... Back in 91 I lived in Fort lauderdale Florida. I was writing songs and recording them one of which I decided to press up on vinyl. After asking a few bods at the local DJ Store I was directed to a small factory pressing plant just outside FL. on Federal Highway. They pressed up 1000 12" singles for me which sounded great. I asked the old guy there how long he had been in business he told me over 20 years. He also told me that during the mid 60's right up to the late 70's he had pressed up a lot of the Motown releases. Now I know this is probably a long shot but he had a wall covered in Soul/Tamla 45's Demos in his office, maybe he's still there..... ......and can you see those little pink pigs flying around in the ether LOL....... Stop dreaming Nik and get me a Soulful House CD full of killer gems! Ian D
Sean Hampsey Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 LOL, you know me too well Sean! However, it always helps a born bullshitter if there's actually a REAL story! Ian D Yeh - but even then - as my old mentor used to say... never let the truth get in the way of a good story! Sean
Ian Dewhirst Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I'm off to Florida in a few weeks. Would you like me to check? Phil - Happy To Help! The wife won't let you Phil! Ian D
Phild Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 The wife won't let you Phil! Ian D If I leave her in the outlet mall she won't even notice for a couple of days
Ian Dewhirst Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 If I leave her in the outlet mall she won't even notice for a couple of days Good point! Cheap at whatever the price! Ian D
Guest Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I'm starting to get confused as to which copy is which. So: Tim Brown's copy is from Martin Koppel, which he in turn got from Ron Murphy, which Ron got from a former mananger at Motown? Kenny Burrell's copy came from Tim Brown, who bought it from Kev Roberts, who got it from Jon Woodcliffe, who got it from Les McCutcheon, who got it from Simon Soussan when he sold up, who in turn stole/borrowed it from Tom DePierro? Billie Jean Brown definitely had one originally. I always thought that was the copy that Kenny Burrell ended up with. If not, then where is it now ???
Guest Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 It's documented that Berry G has a copy. Sean Then that would indeed be the Billie Jean Brown copy. Bill Baron claimed he saw it once, but he's dead now so I can't ask him more about it obviously.
Pete S Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Is it just me who isn't getting excited about this?
Diggin' Dave Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I don't think I'd risk it. Maybe more will turn up now I'm just thinking of speculating in a couple of buy to let gaffs at the minute. maybe I'll wait until September Phil Could be the next Clara Hardy
arnie j Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Is it just me who isn't getting excited about this? cant speak for others pete but i think its a superb thread, this story about the record and how many are out there etc fscinates me, i love this kind of stuff
Davetay Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Ah, so it's the other way around? Tim sold the Ron Murphy copy to Kenny? So Tim Brown has had both copies through his hands? Yes Tim had both copies through his hands. I,ve got a picture somewhere holding both copies in warehouse. Maria took one of Carl holding them at the same time.
Pete S Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 cant speak for others pete but i think its a superb thread, this story about the record and how many are out there etc fscinates me, i love this kind of stuff It's a fascinating - and well worn - story but the actual sale of the record, it's so far removed from reality that I have no interest in it at all.
Gasher Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) no mate but my dog just dropped a turd that was longer than her about 3ft and it looked like a blind eel now that was exciting Is it just me who isn't getting excited about this? Edited February 3, 2009 by GASHER
Guest Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) I'd reserve judgement on that just for the time being. IF it does go to auction, and its handled correctly froma an exposure point of view, then we may be just about to witness one of the most dramatic events in soul vinyl collecting history. The thing is that its not a rare soul 45 we're talking about, its an historical artifact which may hold kudos far beyond the boundaries of our collecting scene. If the marketing hype is executed correctly, I wouldn't be surprised to see it hit $100,000 + The whole scenario interests me simply because I am curious to find out whether the copy is Ken's , Brownie's or the fabled third one ........ I sincerely hope it is the third copy , as it should end those holy grail discussions as to its' existance ......... Malc Burton Edited February 4, 2009 by Malc Burton
Kris Holmes Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 The whole scenario interests me simply because I am curious to find out whether the copy is Ken's , Brownie's or the fabled third one ........ I sincerely hope it is the third copy , as it should end those holy grail discussions as to its' existance ......... Malc Burton Maybe it will be a 4th copy if indeed Berry Gordy now has Billie Jean Brown's copy.
Sjclement Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I'd reserve judgement on that just for the time being. IF it does go to auction, and its handled correctly froma an exposure point of view, then we may be just about to witness one of the most dramatic events in soul vinyl collecting history. The thing is that its not a rare soul 45 we're talking about, its an historical artifact which may hold kudos far beyond the boundaries of our collecting scene. If the marketing hype is executed correctly, I wouldn't be surprised to see it hit $100,000 + Might make the 6 o'clock news on a slow day,definitely the local news, perhaps you could wangle a spot on the Antiques Roadshow I'm sur Eric Knowles could put across a good case for it.Stuart Marconi could mention it on Radio 2 . EXPOSURE is the key and before you know it 25k will be surpassed
Marc Forrest Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Ah, so it's the other way around? Tim sold the Ron Murphy copy to Kenny? So Tim Brown has had both copies through his hands? Yes. Marc
Marc Forrest Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I'm off to Florida in a few weeks. Would you like me to check? Phil - Happy To Help! You can check also with Tim there as hes already over in sunny Florida
Our Kid Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Might make the 6 o'clock news on a slow day,definitely the local news, perhaps you could wangle a spot on the Antiques Roadshow I'm sur Eric Knowles could put across a good case for it.Stuart Marconi could mention it on Radio 2 . EXPOSURE is the key and before you know it 25k will be surpassed If exposure is the key then a Coronation St storyline has to be the vehicle! Perhaps Ken Barlow could recollect a moment from the 60's when he swapped a tune for a girlfriend with Mike Baldwin - cut to KB rummaging in the attic - and there it is a dusty FW minter - Ken barlow finally comes out on top!!! Paul
Guest moggy Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 It's a fascinating - and well worn - story but the actual sale of the record, it's so far removed from reality that I have no interest in it at all. Pete, yes FW and all the explanations and stories that have been put out over the last thirty years are a little worn, but if this is a third copy, then surely you must have an interest in how it has come about Im waiting with baited breath As for the sale and price, well its each to his own On a footnote Pete, if you had been offered the third copy by a mystery seller, what price would you honestly expect, and dont say half the the figure of the last one, as I would bet my gnads it will easily surpass that figure (15k)
Steve Plumb Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I have STILL not got a fooking clue what's going on BUT this thread is STILL great
Val (Chunky) Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Not too sure if I know this....anyone have a clip?
Paulw Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 quote name='Val' date='Feb 4 09, 12:09 PM' post='992264'] Not too sure if I know this....anyone have a clip?
Chris Anderton Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I know that Berry Gordy still buys motown stuff for his collection so he must have the other copy by now. When Candy Kay (of Motorcity records) sold up some men in suites arrived from LA to buy on "somebodys" behalf but she was`nt allowed to say who. Candy had one of, if not the best Motown collection anywhere. Whereas Ron collected 45s only Candy collected the whole lot,45s, Lps, acetates,EPs, foriegn stuff etc She never had a Frank Wilson though. Talking to Candy about Motown was an education...she talks in numbers rather than artists and titles, her knowledge is amazing! Chris
Pete S Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Pete, yes FW and all the explanations and stories that have been put out over the last thirty years are a little worn, but if this is a third copy, then surely you must have an interest in how it has come about Im waiting with baited breath As for the sale and price, well its each to his own On a footnote Pete, if you had been offered the third copy by a mystery seller, what price would you honestly expect, and dont say half the the figure of the last one, as I would bet my gnads it will easily surpass that figure (15k) I really don't know. As A Northern Soul record, before Tim and Kenny bought it, I would have rated it at more than a Don Gardner but less than a Mello Souls. I think it's actually worth maybe 8 grand in the real world. Edited February 4, 2009 by Pete S
Benji Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 One question that I don't think has been discussed before. The reported 15K that Kenny B. paid for FW (only partially in cash I recall?), was this the winning bid in an auction or was this the asking price or was this the final offer that Tim Brown/Martin Koppell couldn't refuse? In my opinion when compared to other NS records of equal rarity and quality it shouldn't be worth more than the 8K that Pete Smith estimates.
Guest moggy Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 One question that I don't think has been discussed before. The reported 15K that Kenny B. paid for FW (only partially in cash I recall?), was this the winning bid in an auction or was this the asking price or was this the final offer that Tim Brown/Martin Koppell couldn't refuse? In my opinion when compared to other NS records of equal rarity and quality it shouldn't be worth more than the 8K that Pete Smith estimates. But Benji, when its placed in an auction its any bodys guess what its likely to finish at, as there will be plenty of bidders, that I am sure of and especialy on a John Manship auction, blimey every month we have people critisize the amount he manages to get on items as opposed to what we consider the going rate. I think the KB deal was money and vinyl, not auctioned, bartered for me thinks,
Guest moggy Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 This is a getting a bit like "Flog It" You know what I mean, some woman comes in with a couple of old wall tiles made by some long gone obscure tile making comapny, the expert says "mmmm anything up to £400" auction starts and they go for £2400 Must see whats on the walls in me dad's bathroom
Benji Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 But Benji, when its placed in an auction its any bodys guess what its likely to finish at, as there will be plenty of bidders, that I am sure of and especialy on a John Manship auction, blimey every month we have people critisize the amount he manages to get on items as opposed to what we consider the going rate. I think the KB deal was money and vinyl, not auctioned, bartered for me thinks, I didn't say it will end up 8K on auction. I did say it's not worth more than 8K. I'm fully aware of how records can exceed their true value in auctions. The reason why I don't join the "estimate the end price of FW" game is pretty simple: I can't be bothered. I think FW is a fantastic record and with only 2 copies known to the public one of the rarest Northern Soul records too. But I'm not really excited about the news that a copy will soon be auctioned. If John Manship said a mint copy of the Mello Souls will be auctioned soon I'd be drooling...
Pete S Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I didn't say it will end up 8K on auction. I did say it's not worth more than 8K. I'm fully aware of how records can exceed their true value in auctions. The reason why I don't join the "estimate the end price of FW" game is pretty simple: I can't be bothered. I think FW is a fantastic record and with only 2 copies known to the public one of the rarest Northern Soul records too. But I'm not really excited about the news that a copy will soon be auctioned. If John Manship said a mint copy of the Mello Souls will be auctioned soon I'd be drooling... And I say the same as what he just said, on all points
boba Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 And I say the same as what he just said, on all points both of you keep talking about the value of a record as completely inherent in 1) the rarity and 2) the sound. Obviously that isn't true as there are lots of extremely rare and good records that aren't worth much. This record has additional value due to its history on the scene, stories behind it, the fact that it is motown and the importance of motown, etc.
Pete S Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 both of you keep talking about the value of a record as completely inherent in 1) the rarity and 2) the sound. Obviously that isn't true as there are lots of extremely rare and good records that aren't worth much. This record has additional value due to its history on the scene, stories behind it, the fact that it is motown and the importance of motown, etc. It's just another record out of 30,000 northern soul records, it's great, but there are hundreds better. Before the internet, there would have been none of this fuss about the sale of a record.
Guest newone Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 One question that I don't think has been discussed before. The reported 15K that Kenny B. paid for FW (only partially in cash I recall?), was this the winning bid in an auction or was this the asking price or was this the final offer that Tim Brown/Martin Koppell couldn't refuse? In my opinion when compared to other NS records of equal rarity and quality it shouldn't be worth more than the 8K that Pete Smith estimates. never posted on any site before, but this will run and run and re-ignite peoples memories and interest in the music, as a outsider to the scene maybe a neutral opinion on this subject john manship has a a world wide reputation to protect(how many records do u see for sale that quote the price as seen in manship etc)yes i know the majority of these people dont have a clue and thats why they use manships price, but it proves the point, therefore if its not tim browns copy(and he would be better of selling it on manship site than his own as he would get more money. On his(tim) contact us page it states we hope to update our list in the year 2004(what?).i dont think manship would list the warped copy as he himself states it throws the arm of, that leads to the fact there is a third copyand mr manship trust the seller enough to put his reputation on the line to tell the world it is going on auction on his site(he states we recieved a e mail)anybody who has a boot of this and does not have a clue as to whats what will think they have struck gold, and be on the phone(phone)to john, you are all a very close knit comunity u all know whos got what in their collection, and i cant believe that any collecter would not have let slip that they had a third copy, so we go back to the words john used "we had a e mail" only somebody who is important, and can really only prove themselves with a e mail address, would use this introduction to sell the record and intoduce themselves to mr manship, and my suggestion would be the ian levine has got spot on, its berry gordys,(why would he sell well the mans ego is legendary and what would give him greater pleasure than having a number one record in motowns 50th year)(dont all laugh only an opinion but how easy it it to get a number one these days if the publicity is spot on the interset generated will get it there 79p for a download ) love or loathe this record its got u all talking, even though it came on the scene well after it was established, its still the most talked about
Guest moggy Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 And I say the same as what he just said, on all points Strange world we live in, the most expensive record ever from the scene, and people cant be bothered or interested in what happens to it.
Pete S Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Strange world we live in, the most expensive record ever from the scene, and people cant be bothered or interested in what happens to it. Whats the point, I wouldn't be able to bid for it so why would it be of interest to me? I'd love a new posh car but I can't afford one so I don't think about it.
Guest moggy Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 never posted on any site before, but this will run and run and re-ignite peoples memories and interest in the music, as a outsider to the scene maybe a neutral opinion on this subject john manship has a a world wide reputation to protect(how many records do u see for sale that quote the price as seen in manship etc)yes i know the majority of these people dont have a clue and thats why they use manships price, but it proves the point, therefore if its not tim browns copy(and he would be better of selling it on manship site than his own as he would get more money. On his(tim) contact us page it states we hope to update our list in the year 2004(what?).i dont think manship would list the warped copy as he himself states it throws the arm of, that leads to the fact there is a third copyand mr manship trust the seller enough to put his reputation on the line to tell the world it is going on auction on his site(he states we recieved a e mail)anybody who has a boot of this and does not have a clue as to whats what will think they have struck gold, and be on the phone(phone)to john, you are all a very close knit comunity u all know whos got what in their collection, and i cant believe that any collecter would not have let slip that they had a third copy, so we go back to the words john used "we had a e mail" only somebody who is important, and can really only prove themselves with a e mail address, would use this introduction to sell the record and intoduce themselves to mr manship, and my suggestion would be the ian levine has got spot on, its berry gordys,(why would he sell well the mans ego is legendary and what would give him greater pleasure than having a number one record in motowns 50th year)(dont all laugh only an opinion but how easy it it to get a number one these days if the publicity is spot on the interset generated will get it there 79p for a download ) love or loathe this record its got u all talking, even though it came on the scene well after it was established, its still the most talked about Mmmm Interesting points made, got me thinking a tadd Welcome to Soul Source
Guest moggy Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Whats the point, I wouldn't be able to bid for it so why would it be of interest to me? I'd love a new posh car but I can't afford one so I don't think about it. Ahhhhaaaaaaaa but I bet you watch Top Gear
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