Frank Wilson On Soul Auction

[Guest]

If there is another Frank Wilson to be offered for auction by John, it will not surprise.

I've said it before on soul source several times over the years that, on the balance of probabilities, there just had to be more copies in existence.

Wipe away all the myths that have evolved since the record hit the northern scene in the 70's and think about about all of this logically and sensibly ... and answer the following:

Why would would Motown only have pressed up just a handful of demo copies of Frank Wilson - if a handful was in fact all there ever was - if they wanted to promote and break the record with radio stations across America in the normal way as they did with just about all their other releases ?

And even if Motown actually pressed up more than a handful, a few boxes of them even, why go to the trouble of destroying them apart from a file copy or two - as the story goes - if Berry Gordy and his Marketing Department had decided against promoting the record ? To prevent the record from becoming becoming popular and avoid having their up and coming young producer Frank Wilson from becoming a performing star ? Don't think so: Gordy was the ultimate pragmatist and if he felt that a record would be a hit and earn the company millions, you can bet he would have put it out ! Frank Wilson wasn't that important to Motown in the general scheme of things in '65 !

And why actually destroy almost all known copies ? They weren't state secrets that had to be shredded out of existence !!! All Motown had to do was toss the boxes away in the vaults and forget about them and that would have been the end of it !

More likely the Motown Marketing Department had simply decided that by this time they were having so many hits on their other more established artists that they couldn't fit the Frank Wilson record into the release schedule at that time to the detriment of one of their other acts. Better to use all their promotional muscle on the next 4 Tops or Miracles release than on Frank Wilson.

It's a music industry maxim that one company can only put out a certain amount of product on the market at any one time without affecting their other releases, right ?

.........................

Incidentally, I suspect that the winning bidder will be a Motown label completist from the US and that the winning bid will be well over the $40,000.00 to 50,000.00 US mark.

.........................

And there are probably more copies of Frank Wilson out there in the world ... possibly in the hands of record collectors who neither know about nor care about the northern scene ... and who have no desire to trumpet the fact that they own it to the northern scene or anyone else for that matter .

Just to cover your very valid points.

I've always understood it, from the real Motown scolars i've spoken to over the years, their theory or assumption is. That for any record to reach a promo press at Motown it had to go through a "boardroom process" of approval.

Allegedly Frank's 45 somehow bypassed this process, and didn't get the full approval required. So was subsequently pulled, and destroyed.

This 45 almost certainly never reached radio stations or reviewers if it did, copies would have been unearthed by now. Employees at the time, are the only likely source..

Just like, the just as rare, Patrice Holloway on VIP, some say contractual difficulties, I'd say the labels are back to front! so copies pulled and were destroyed.

Likewise Kim Weston's - A little More Love - Tamla withdrawn etc. etc. No promo copies are know to exist, weird. on either press.

The strange and wonderful happenings of the record pressing world allow all types of theories to be put forward and every one could be true. Back in the day, "The warehouse burnt down in the riots" was the favorite answer to a 45s rarity...but most likely we now know after speaking to old-timers like Richard A. Bass, that rarity got chucked in a skip by the distributors, as he would tell me fabulous stories of his regular route around distributors yards and pulling boxes of 45s from skips.

But the fact remains it is to date Frank Wilson is the rarest and finest example of our music.

If I found a recording of this quality on an obscure Texas label by Herbert Scroggins and his Rodeo Rustlers - Crying In My Beer Over You - Buckin Bronco 101. I'd ask 20K for it..and get it.

Frank Wilson 45 is an absolutely blinding piece of Motown / Northern Soul which on first hearing made everyone hairs on the neck stand up...

Edited February 3, 2009 by john manship

[Guest Gogs]

quote

This 45 almost certainly never reached radio stations or reviewers if it did, copies would have been unearthed by now. Employees at the time, are the only likely source..

Hi john do we take it that this record is currently owned by an ex-motown employee.

gogs

[Ian Dewhirst]

who ever is running a book on the winning bid price, put me down for £85,000.

You may not be far off the mark there Jules. There's still a few 'ifs', 'buts' and 'maybes' but if this is a pristine previously unknown 3rd copy which is mint with no warp and a clean label and the auction gets the amount of publicity it should warrant, then it will certainly be the most expensive Soul record ever auctioned.

I think the general history of the record, it's undoubted popularity since the 1970's, the fact that it's always been the holy grail of most collectors and that it's the rarest of the rare Motown release on the year of Motown's 50th anniversary will all help.

My guess is that there will be several top-end bidders and the price will soar and the winner will either be a well-healed Motown completist or a Soul loving Pop star with money aplenty!

It'll almost certainly eclipse my copy of the Rodeo Rustlers - Crying In My Beer Over You on Buckin Bronco!

Ian D

[Steve G]

Funnily enough, the only record I know to equal it in sheer rarity is Jim Gilstrap's wonderful "Run Run Run", on Bell issue, which I stupidly STUPIDLY sold to Tim Brown for eight hundred quid, and again, to this day, there are only two copies known about in the entire world.

There are a number of 1 and 2 known copy records - so on rarity value Frank WIlson isn't unique. But it is Motown and that counts for a lot, and yes it was stupid to sell Jim Gilstrap to Tim Brown when you could have sold it to me Ian

[CAMBRIDGE SOUL]

Nope. White guy. I actually introduced Soussan to him in the first place when Motown very nearly signed Shalamar, so I guess it's indirectly my fault LOL......

The record is still technically the property of Motown Records but I guess the statute of limitations has run out by now.

Ian D

I was talking about this thread to Max Rees and he was the one that wondered if this was a black guy from Chicago.

The reason being that he was in a shop called second hand tunes on the south side of Chicago in the 80's and a customer in there started up a conversation with Max .....he said he had a complete Motown collection , when questions on certain 45's he was super knowledgeable.... he knew all about the unusual one's and could not be caught out, Max questioned him on 45's like Debbie Dean, Patty Jerome and Barbara Mc Nair.... he knew all about them and even details like the catalogue numbers..... He said he had a Frank Wilson on soul, he knew all about it and his recall was very fast and he did not have to think about any answers, this guy was a motown nut. Max did not get his name but had a great conversation about black music with him.

So if this guy has a complete Motown and associated label collection then there are more than 2 Frank Wilson's out there.

Just thought I would post this information

All the best

David

[boba]

I was talking about this thread to Max Rees and he was the one that wondered if this was a black guy from Chicago.

The reason being that he was in a shop called second hand tunes on the south side of Chicago in the 80's and a customer in there started up a conversation with Max .....he said he had a complete Motown collection , when questions on certain 45's he was super knowledgeable.... he knew all about the unusual one's and could not be caught out, Max questioned him on 45's like Debbie Dean, Patty Jerome and Barbara Mc Nair.... he knew all about them and even details like the catalogue numbers..... He said he had a Frank Wilson on soul, he knew all about it and his recall was very fast and he did not have to think about any answers, this guy was a motown nut. Max did not get his name but had a great conversation about black music with him.

So if this guy has a complete Motown and associated label collection then there are more than 2 Frank Wilson's out there.

Just thought I would post this information

All the best

David

If you're talking about Bob Miner (fat white guy), he never had Frank Wilson or Patrice Holloway but had pretty much everything else (including the charters). I don't think there was another big motown collector in Chicago.

[boba]

If you're talking about Bob Miner (fat white guy), he never had Frank Wilson or Patrice Holloway but had pretty much everything else (including the charters). I don't think there was another big motown collector in Chicago.

oh wait, I see you said it was a "black guy". I don't know who it would be then. Maybe Bob Stallworth, but I don't think he had frank wilson.

[Guest moggy]

Mr Manship the suspense is killing me

Can you just specify which country, said seller is from please

[Diggin' Dave]

Haven't contributed to this thread because there's nothing I can say about this record that hasn't already been said, but I gotta say... it's been great to read through all the myths, (half) truths, speculations etc. surrounding this seminal record for the scene.

Keep'em coming guys...

Btw: my bet: If it's Kenny's copy £35000, if it's a minter £60000.

And if it's a third copy I'd give £1000 for a photo that captured the look on the face of the guy when he unearthed it

[Guest moggy]

So many bloody questions

also, did he or she know of its rarity and possible price tag, or amazingly have they only recently come to know this information, and how on earth have they managed to remain silent about it, or has it only just surfaced via an old thrift store or somewhere simillar.

Arrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhh this is so frustrating

[Dave Fleming]

Do i detect a French connection here John as you have had a heap of his on your auction site recently ? Was'nt aware he owned one but you can keep anything quiet if you want to eh?? Just curious anyway. You missed a blinder of a night at the FLY last Saturday by the way. Till next time. Tony T BONE. OZ, K.T.F.

Are you on about the French guy that used to get nearly every record released by US record companies sent to him back in the 60s/70s?,in 1976 this guy had 25000 +,inc:James Fountain,Anderson Bros,Cindy Scott ect,and he had no idea that these records were sort after and played on the Northern scene,so if any one`s got a F Wilson tucked away it could be him.

Dave f...........

[Ian Dewhirst]

Mr Manship the suspense is killing me

Can you just specify which country, said seller is from please

I think there's a confidentiality clause involved and the identity of the seller is being protected for security reasons.

I can understand it. I've heard many tales of rare doo-wop collectors being threatened at gunpoint for rare items and this would be a record that someone would target to nick if the sellers identity was in the public domain.......

Ian D

[Marc Forrest]

Are you on about the French guy that used to get nearly every record released by US record companies sent to him back in the 60s/70s?,in 1976 this guy had 25000 +,inc:James Fountain,Anderson Bros,Cindy Scott ect,and he had no idea that these records were sort after and played on the Northern scene,so if any one`s got a F Wilson tucked away it could be him.

Dave f...........

Heard that story too...plus there is that Swedish guy (so therefor obvioulsy not JM`s client) whol said he had one along his complete Motown collection.

Either way, I always doubted the fact that only two copies survived. Now we know at least of three. Wouldn`t be surprised if (after this auction) maybe another one drops out of the dark..

Marc

[Dave Fleming]

I think there's a confidentiality clause involved and the identity of the seller is being protected for security reasons.

I can understand it. I've heard many tales of rare doo-wop collectors being threatened at gunpoint for rare items and this would be a record that someone would target to nick if the sellers identity was in the public domain.......

Ian D

Too true Ian,that`s why i never named the French guy,i thought it would be unfair as it`s all if`s and but`s at this time,

and no one knows for sure.

Dave f.........

[Benji]

Heard that story too...plus there is that Swedish guy (so therefor obvioulsy not JM`s client) whol said he had one along his complete Motown collection.

Do you mean that bloke who even had a "scan" of FW on his website? He turned out to have many many Motown related tunes but collection was far from complete.

FW scan was fake as were a few others on his site.

[Jaco]

From these Isles and its one of the already 2 known copies. In the year of Motown's 50th Anniversary, I suspect it will fetch a very large price, the consequential press and marketing coverage could be significant if managed right, by far outweighing the acquisition price of the disc.

Right, Andy we've established it's not Kennys 'cos he said it's not for sale.

Ergo it's Tim's.

I understand confidentiality, but if it is Tim's why doesn't somebody just come out and say so

Thinking about it, if it is Tim that's selling he must believe that Manship's auction gives him a better chance of achieving a higher price than his own auction.

Maybe, possibly, probably....

[Marc Forrest]

Right, Andy we've established it's not Kennys 'cos he said it's not for sale.

Ergo it's Tim's.

I understand confidentiality, but if it is Tim's why doesn't somebody just come out and say so

Thinking about it, if it is Tim that's selling he must believe that Manship's auction gives him a better chance of achieving a higher price than his own auction.

Maybe, possibly, probably....

Woudl Tim auction his copy via Manship ? I doubt it somehow seeing he has his own site and would save the commision. But even if he for what reason ever would let Manship auction his copy, why would they use a scan of Kennys copy ?

I go for that "mysteriuos " french guy...

[Pete Eccles]

Apparently it was found in Del Boy's lock up next to the 'Harrison pocket watch'

[Dave Fleming]

Right, Andy we've established it's not Kennys 'cos he said it's not for sale.

Ergo it's Tim's.

I understand confidentiality, but if it is Tim's why doesn't somebody just come out and say so

Thinking about it, if it is Tim that's selling he must believe that Manship's auction gives him a better chance of achieving a higher price than his own auction.

Maybe, possibly, probably....

I thought Tim B copy had a very bad warp in it and allmost unplayable?,

unless someone buys it and put`s it in a frame too look at it,like art collectors do with there old masters

Dave f...........

[Premium Stuff]

Richard

[Pete S]

Haven't contributed to this thread because there's nothing I can say about this record that hasn't already been said, but I gotta say... it's been great to read through all the myths, (half) truths, speculations etc. surrounding this seminal record for the scene.

Keep'em coming guys...

Btw: my bet: If it's Kenny's copy £35000, if it's a minter £60000.

And if it's a third copy I'd give £1000 for a photo that captured the look on the face of the guy when he unearthed it

Who's got 60 grand to spend on a record? Nobody would be that stupid.

[Guest Soultown andy]

Its gonna be an interestin one this but i doubt it will go for anything like the sums being banded about.It does seem one or two are trying to make out they know whats going on whos it is etc,if thats the case why not say whos it is or doesnt anybody realy know as i suspect is the case.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Soultown andy

[Steve L]

i think JM could kill a lot of the speculation without betraying any confidence by simply stating if this is one of the 2 "known" copies or not. John?

After all it will be apparent when the auction starts cos it'll be obvious if its TB's or KB's copy by the description

[Steve Plumb]

I have not got a fooking clue what's going on BUT this thread is great

[Sean Hampsey]

Who's got 60 grand to spend on a record? Nobody would be that stupid.

Agree Pete.

File under 'nice to have' but if you've got a spare £60k that's not a sensible or realisable investment.

And I would say that those who would have the odd 60 spare can think of better places to put their money.

Sean

[Mick Reed]

i think JM could kill a lot of the speculation without betraying any confidence by simply stating if this is one of the 2 "known" copies or not. John?

After all it will be apparent when the auction starts cos it'll be obvious if its TB's or KB's copy by the description

kenny said he's not selling his,tim browns is fooked that just leaves one more option i would say.

[Sean Hampsey]

I have not got a fooking clue what's going on BUT this thread is great

Something about a copy of Frank Elson coming up for sale, some time soon, Steve!

Sean

[Dave Moore]

Bit of a sideline question this..

Does anyone know what the master source was for the UK Tamla Motown releases of Frank Wilson??

Was it studio master tapes or does a studio dub/test pressing exist?

There are certainly studio acetates of the disc yes.

[Bjorn Nilsson]

But even if he for what reason ever would let Manship auction his copy, why would they use a scan of Kennys copy ?

Why would anyone except for Kenny use a scan of his copy?

It's so easy to scan your own or even take a picture to validate it is the real thing!

As I have understood it someone (although very trustworthy) just tells John Manship he/she has a copy but doesn't even have a scan or photo of it and no one has seen it.

Very strange but I love to speculate and to read other peoples speculations to!

Edited February 3, 2009 by B Nilsson

[Linda4me]

Bit of a sideline question this..

Does anyone know what the master source was for the UK Tamla Motown releases of Frank Wilson??

Was it studio master tapes or does a studio dub/test pressing exist?

there is at least one dub/test pressing and the owner posts on here i wont name him maybe he'll own up

[Pete S]

There are certainly studio acetates of the disc yes.

I've seen an Abbey Road acetate of the 1979 UK release come up for sale. Might as well have just got an emi done.

[Guest moggy]

Who's got 60 grand to spend on a record? Nobody would be that stupid.

I would'nt bet against it Pete

as I stated earlier theres a lot of people out there with a lot of money taboot

It may not seem a sound investment to us at some of the prices quoted, but if this is a 100% 3rd copy in lets assume mint condition, then youre gonna see plenty of interest, and lets remember theres lots of millionaire collectors worlwide .

I mean lets put it in perspective, to a very rich collector its £60k or maybe a new motor thats gonna be worth a few grand a few years down the line.

The thing is Pete, to joe public like most of us on here, we have many many things we need money for, where bye there are a fotunate few who maybe dont have them worries, and fancy one of the worlds most elusive pieces of vinyl.

[paup-ine]

Bit of a sideline question this..

Does anyone know what the master source was for the UK Tamla Motown releases of Frank Wilson??

Was it studio master tapes or does a studio dub/test pressing exist?

And how much for one of these then?? (the original UK release)

P

[Steve G]

dave F

I have met the French guy you eluded to. Really nice chap, and yes he got loads of stuff, sent from his NY office when they got stuff sent to them. He won't have a FW, and also he is also aware of the prices of the stuff he does have.....Steve

[Guest Bearsy]

I think there's a confidentiality clause involved and the identity of the seller is being protected for security reasons.

I can understand it. I've heard many tales of rare doo-wop collectors being threatened at gunpoint for rare items and this would be a record that someone would target to nick if the sellers identity was in the public domain.......

Ian D

i would only hit him over the head with a lump of lead i just nicked off the church roof though

[Ronjon]

On the back of the new Manifesto Pete .There's an ad for a new Motown catalogue by John Manship , with Frank Wilson being auctioned from 14/3/09 until 8/ 4 / 2009 .It looks like Kenny's , it's clearly autographed to Kenny , as mentioned by Ian Levine on here .Best,Eddie

It would make more sense if the auction finished a week earlier on April Fools Day.

[Tabs]

Well I'm still nowhere near convinced that a 3rd copy exists.

John has not confirmed it is a 3 rd copy

I can understand the confidentiality aspect to an extent, but a reply saying it is from a mainland European collector, USA, or anywhere other than the UK would clarify the situation.

Just my guess but Kenny's effectively retiring, he has sold recently and if the price is right why should he keep DILY.

[Diddy Morgan]

Fook Frank Wilson, now theres three copies

JM just print 1 xl T-Shirt and destroy the plates and any evidence lying around, and post the one and only orig to me Manny boy be worth a choofin fortune

I gotta be honest though, like Smithy Im pissin me pants waiting to here the full story of how its come about.

its causing a lot of interest this record which is frequently slagged off on this site

[Tomangoes]

I would'nt bet against it Pete

as I stated earlier theres a lot of people out there with a lot of money taboot

It may not seem a sound investment to us at some of the prices quoted, but if this is a 100% 3rd copy in lets assume mint condition, then youre gonna see plenty of interest, and lets remember theres lots of millionaire collectors worlwide .

I mean lets put it in perspective, to a very rich collector its £60k or maybe a new motor thats gonna be worth a few grand a few years down the line.

The thing is Pete, to joe public like most of us on here, we have many many things we need money for, where bye there are a fotunate few who maybe dont have them worries, and fancy one of the worlds most elusive pieces of vinyl.

I agree, its just about the rarest item in the Northern Soul scene and £60k is peanuts compared to other genre rarities.

Not only that but if you have a copy of every single motown release except maybe this one, its priceless. Any single over a fiver is overpriced in terms of what the plastic is worth, but as you all know, rightly or wrongly, thats not how it works is it.

Ed

[Andy Rix]

Bit of a sideline question this..

Does anyone know what the master source was for the UK Tamla Motown releases of Frank Wilson??

Was it studio master tapes or does a studio dub/test pressing exist?

..... I'm fairly confident this is the story ..... but it was a long time ago so my memory might betray me

the source was direct from the Motown stereo master tapes that were, I assume copied, and shipped over to Abbey Road arriving in the same batch as the masters for the UK release of Stevie Wonder's 'Secret Life of Plants' LP.

the stereo master had to be mixed down to mono for the UK release and to help do this contact was made with a London based Motown collector. He told me that he went down to Abbey Road and took with him the Eddie Foster bootleg. As this was obviously sourced from the Soul copy, that Mr Soussan, had it was used as the reference disc for the mono mix

As a side note does anybody recall that when Soul Sam first played this from the acetate that Simon sent over he introduced it as Otis Clark - Indeed I do

Cheers

Andy

[Neil Rushton]

wanted to promote and break the record with radio stations across America in the normal way as they did with just about all their other releases ?

And even if Motown actually pressed up more than a handful, a few boxes of them even, why go to the trouble of destroying them apart from a file copy or two - as the story goes - if Berry Gordy and his Marketing Department had decided against promoting the record ? To prevent the record from becoming becoming popular and avoid having their up and coming young producer Frank Wilson from becoming a performing star ? Don't think so: Gordy was the ultimate pragmatist and if he felt that a record would be a hit and earn the company millions, you can bet he would have put it out ! Frank Wilson wasn't that important to Motown in the general scheme of things in '65 !

And why actually destroy almost all known copies ? They weren't state secrets that had to be shredded out of existence !!! All Motown had to do was toss the boxes away in the vaults and forget about them and that would have been the end of it !

------------------

I interviewed Frank Wilson for manifesto and he was very clear about everything - he vividly remembered the recording session that came up with "Do I Love You".

He had been writing and producing with Hal Davis and Marc Gordon at the Jobete office in LA. When Motown decided to close it down they asked for Frank to come to Detroit. Within 2 days of landing he had come up with - ie written and produced - "Whole Lot Of Shaking (In My Heart)" for The Miracles which he remembers shook quite a few people at the quality control department when the song was chosen ahead of other more established Motown producers as the next Miracles single.

He then went on a couple of days later to record something on The Temptations (maybe "I Want A Love I Can See

"? I can't recall now) and then on the Saturday night went to a Motown review at The Fox Theatre where Berry Gordy cornered him and said how he saw Frank becoming a major new producer for Motown.Berry knew about "Do I Love You" and asked Frank if he wanted to be a Motown producer/songwwriter or artist. When Frank hestitated Berry asked him to look outside the theatre and and tell him who had the flashiest cars (ie who made the most dollars) the producers/songwriters or the artists. Frank replied the producers/songwriters and said that's what he wanted to be!

Berry said he had made the right choice and he would have the promos of "Do I Love You" destroyed and make sure they did not go out to radio stations.He obviously did not see it as a hit, if he thought it would have sold a million he might have had a different attitude.

Frank had earlier come up with a shorter version of this for SWONS.

I had the Kenny Burrell copy in my hand in Detroit before Ron Murphy sold it on, and Ron told me that the copies definitely had been destroyed although he did not know why, but that he made sure he got one of them. Ron had a connection with Motown,he told me he discovered the tape of of the Chris Clark version.

Also met Tom DePerrio once in New York and he confirmed the story about Frank Wilson and Soussan. although he did not mention the Lester Tipton connection.

[Sean Hampsey]

I had the Kenny Burrell copy in my hand in Detroit before Ron Murphy sold it on, and Ron told me that the copies definitely had been destroyed although he did not know why, but that he made sure he got one of them. Ron had a connection with Motown,he told me he discovered the tape of of the Chris Clark version.

Also met Tom DePerrio once in New York and he confirmed the story about Frank Wilson and Soussan. although he did not mention the Lester Tipton connection.

To complement that, Neil, here's Rons version of events, copied from Soulful Detroit:

Here's the story on Soul 35019 by Frank Wilson:

The prime pressing plant for Motown was American Record Pressing (ARP) located in Owosso.Michigan now this plant was destroyed by a fire in 1971 but later in the early 80's I contacted some of the former employee's to see if they still had saved any of the records pressed there.

Well I got lucky and found a few thousand records pressed at ARP starting from 1952 when the plant started right up to 1971, I visted and purchased records from about 25 former workers, one day I received a call from a former manager saying he had about 300 records to sell and this guy ended up having the best Motown items.

Included in those boxes were the Frank Wilson (Soul 35019) and a test pressing of VIP 25034 a "MISSING" number which was the Chris Clark version of the same Frank Wilson song which had Clark overdubbing her lead vocal over Wilson's track.

Now here is exactly what he told me when I asked him how he had all these mint records including the Frank Wilson on Soul, he said: "we would press 6 copies and send 3 to Motown for approval and keep the other 3 copies on file" then he said one day"the owner told him to get rid of all the older records on file because they were taking up a lot of space BUT instead of throwing away all 3 copies he saved ONE copy of each and took those home, and that's what I got.

The other known copy in the UK was originally stolen by a Motown employee and then sold to that collector by Simon Soussan.

So IF the former ARP manager that I got my copy from was correct and the other 2 copies the plant had were destroyed then besides the one copy stolen from Motown's files that would leave only 2 possible other copies to exist.

My copy of Soul 35019 was near mint when I sold my entire Motown collection to Martin Koppel in 1994 at that time I placed a value of $4000. on that record based on offers I had for it up to that time. Martin Koppel had told me he would sell most of the collection by piece meal but since he loved northern soul he would keep the Frank Wilson in his collection BUt as it turned out someone else made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Sean

[Dennisoul]

I have not got a fooking clue what's going on BUT this thread is great

Brilliant

[Sean Hampsey]

And from the same source, what Frank Wilson had to say about the record:

"Prior to producing all these other artists I had been doing a bit of songwriting around the Los Angeles area and often became the vocal vehicle for my own material. Now standing backstage at the Fox Theatre in Detroit, MI one night in 1966 a decision was made that changed my life in more ways than I could have imagined. It was decided between myself and Berry that, rather than becoming a recording star myself, I would instead concentrate on being a writer and producer for Motown stable of awesome talents.

Berry Then ordered all of the masters with my voice on be destroyed and overdubbed another artist (Chris Clark) on my backing track!

A producer/promoter from London called me up enquiring whether I had any idea where he might get his hands on an original recording of 'Do I Love You' - of course I didn't! I had NO idea an original even existed! Though today I consider it one of my life's greatest achievements!"

Good to see that Frank actually had a hand in the decision - not just Berry on his own - as supported by Neils interview above.

Sean

[Neil Rushton]

It was an acetate of " DILY " - not the original 45 - that RW had , sent to him by Simon Soussan , in January 1978 .

It is concievable by that time , RW's association with SS had become friendly enough to call him " Uncle " ..........

Malc Burton

Simon Soussan was supplying records in quantity to Les McCutcheon and Kev Roberts for them to wholesale in the UK.

Simon borrowed "Do I Love You" on Soul from Tom DePerrio and kept it/stole it. The story goes that Tom was living with Lester Tipton and Simon had promised Tom a copy of "I Am Nothing".

He then sped the record upand had acetates cut of the faster version in LA. These were sent over to the UK to promote the record which was now credited by Simon as by Eddie Foster. I had one of these given to me by Les, as did other people. Russ may have had a copy sent direct to him by Simon or got his off Les and Kev, but he didn't "discover it" although if Simon sent him the first acetate he would have heard it before anyone else over here.

Demand duly built up which led to Simon bootlegging the sped up version as Eddie Foster on In, ie the same label as Eddie's "I Never Knew".

Thousands of copies were pessed up by Simon and sold in the UK and nobody over here knew there was a Motown angle. The only clue to a Frank Wilson connection I guess was that Marvin Gaye's version of "Sweeter As The Days Go By" - the same song as the Eddie Foster bootleg b side - had come out with the correct credits on the USA album of unreleased Motown tracks put together by none other than Tom DePerrio.

Les McCutcheon went on to buy Simon's record collection. Just about the last record he was handed was "Do I Love You" - Frank Wilson and Les is said to have gone white with shock when he saw it was a Motown recording. He did not realise he had unwittingly been selling a bootleg as Simon, as was his way, had lied convincingly.One thing I have often wondered - how close did Hal Davis and Marc Gordon who ran the Jobete office in LA and had arranged the recordings of "Do I Love You" come to releasing "Do I Love You" - Chris Clark as by Connie Clark on Joker?

They released "My Sugar Baby" - again a Frank Wilson composition which he again also recorded the first version - and credited it to Connie on Joker, and Frank Wilson says they had permission from Motown in Detroit to do so. .

[Phild]

Agree Pete.

File under 'nice to have' but if you've got a spare £60k that's not a sensible or realisable investment.

And I would say that those who would have the odd 60 spare can think of better places to put their money.

Sean

Maybe £60k for FW is a tad high. But as for better places to put your money. Where?

Personally I've started spending serious amounts on vinyl again as there's no point in having it in the bank cos the most you'll get is a couple %, and a lot of vinyl is available at good prices now.

I don't think personally I'd pay more than £20k-£25k for FW though. It'll obviously go for more than that so no point in bidding

Phil

[Dave Fleming]

dave F

I have met the French guy you eluded to. Really nice chap, and yes he got loads of stuff, sent from his NY office when they got stuff sent to them. He won't have a FW, and also he is also aware of the prices of the stuff he does have.....Steve

Steve i`ve no doubt he`s aware of the prices now,after being told back in 1976 that

"James Fountain" had just sold for £170 and that he had a copy,

so i bet he took more than an interest after he was told that,i know i would

Dave f.............

[Neil Rushton]

To complement that, Neil, here's Rons version of events, copied from Soulful Detroit:

Here's the story on Soul 35019 by Frank Wilson:

The prime pressing plant for Motown was American Record Pressing (ARP) located in Owosso.Michigan now this plant was destroyed by a fire in 1971 but later in the early 80's I contacted some of the former employee's to see if they still had saved any of the records pressed there.

Well I got lucky and found a few thousand records pressed at ARP starting from 1952 when the plant started right up to 1971, I visted and purchased records from about 25 former workers, one day I received a call from a former manager saying he had about 300 records to sell and this guy ended up having the best Motown items.

Included in those boxes were the Frank Wilson (Soul 35019) and a test pressing of VIP 25034 a "MISSING" number which was the Chris Clark version of the same Frank Wilson song which had Clark overdubbing her lead vocal over Wilson's track.

Now here is exactly what he told me when I asked him how he had all these mint records including the Frank Wilson on Soul, he said: "we would press 6 copies and send 3 to Motown for approval and keep the other 3 copies on file" then he said one day"the owner told him to get rid of all the older records on file because they were taking up a lot of space BUT instead of throwing away all 3 copies he saved ONE copy of each and took those home, and that's what I got.

The other known copy in the UK was originally stolen by a Motown employee and then sold to that collector by Simon Soussan.

So IF the former ARP manager that I got my copy from was correct and the other 2 copies the plant had were destroyed then besides the one copy stolen from Motown's files that would leave only 2 possible other copies to exist.

My copy of Soul 35019 was near mint when I sold my entire Motown collection to Martin Koppel in 1994 at that time I placed a value of $4000. on that record based on offers I had for it up to that time. Martin Koppel had told me he would sell most of the collection by piece meal but since he loved northern soul he would keep the Frank Wilson in his collection BUt as it turned out someone else made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Sean

------------

Ron mastered records for a lot of Detroit techno producers, including Kevin Saunderson of Inner City, I managed Kev and Inner City and one day Kevin said as a thank you he wanted to buy me a present. I said OK can you get me a rare record that Ron Murphy showed me in his shop one day?.

Kevin said no he meant a real present but agreed to try and buy "Do I Love You" for me. He thought getting it would be a formality.He was phoning up Ron as we drove from Chicago to Detroit and was flummoxed that Ron would not sell him this one piece of vinyl. Kevin at the time was just about the hottest dance music producer in the world and he just didn't get the whole rarity thing. Anyway Kevin went up to around $5,000 and he said Ron was wavering and as Kevin was quite persuasive he may well have got it for a bit more, but I thought it was getting a bit pricey and told him to forget it and to save his money.

[Sean Hampsey]

and a lot of vinyl is available at good prices now.

Phil

You said it Phil.

Vinyl prices are in decline at the moment (as are most things) and I guess this is why Pete speculates it would make less than half of what it previously sold for.

Reckon you should put your £25k bid in if you really want the record - and my guess is you'd win it.

As for where to put your money for a better return - I've been advised that September 09 would be the best time to invest in property. Meanwhile, if you're self employed... in a downturn market, it pays to advertise!

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

culminating in an ex-motown studion cleaner aged 85 sitting on a boxful of issues and a dozen demos!!!!!!

KILLER VIEWING OR WHAT!!!!

mmmmmmmm might not be too far fetched.

Barney Ales once said that he had several copies of Frank Wilson's "Do I Love You" - which, prior to him learning of its value to collectors, his wife sold at a Garage sale.

Sean