Guest Bobble Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Ok new to the forum, just back into the scene after a long lay off. Well aware that many people on here are very very knowledgeable, so hope this is not a too stupid question I always loved the tune,,, I'll Hold you,, by Frankie and Johnny, I have tried to source who this duo were and if they had any other records but came up blank. i seem to remember them being on Decca.. also only ever having been into the scene in the south was not sure if this tune was played around the country. Anyway its one of those tunes that does it for me, so any info would be greatly recieved, Phew that wasnt so bad cheers
Guest TONY ROUNCE Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) Ok new to the forum, just back into the scene after a long lay off. Well aware that many people on here are very very knowledgeable, so hope this is not a too stupid question I always loved the tune,,, I'll Hold you,, by Frankie and Johnny, I have tried to source who this duo were and if they had any other records but came up blank. i seem to remember them being on Decca.. also only ever having been into the scene in the south was not sure if this tune was played around the country. Anyway its one of those tunes that does it for me, so any info would be greatly recieved, Phew that wasnt so bad cheers "Frankie" was Maggie Bell, later lead singer of rock band Stone The Crows (among other things). She sang with two different "Johnny" s on two different records. I'm pretty sure that the "Johnny" on "I'll Hold You" is her fellow Scot Jimmy Dewar, who also later sang lead with a rock band, that of Robin Trower. "I'll Hold You" was discovered by our Ady, after Mick Smith had played the first couple of bars round Ady's flat and decreed it was crap. It was played everywhere as far as I know, and why wouldn't it be? Edited January 28, 2009 by TONY ROUNCE
Guest Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 "Frankie" was Maggie Bell, later lead singer of rock band Stone The Crows (among other things). She sang with two different "Johnny" s on two different records. I'm pretty sure that the "Johnny" on "I'll Hold You" is her fellow Scot Jimmy Dewar, who also later sang lead with a rock band, that of Robin Trower. "I'll Hold You" was discovered by our Ady, after Mick Smith had played the first couple of bars round Ady's flat and decreed it was crap. It was played everywhere as far as I know, and why wouldn't it be? What year was this ?,sold Mick a UK demo i'm embarased to tell you how little he gave me tight arse i paid 85p in Camden,in with the crap wrong road round and a minter,green with a silver A nice eh !! saying that it was the ex' who paid for it
Guest TONY ROUNCE Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 What year was this ?,sold Mick a UK demo i'm embarased to tell you how little he gave me tight arse i paid 85p in Camden,in with the crap wrong road round and a minter,green with a silver A nice eh !! saying that it was the ex' who paid for it You'd have to ask Ady, Ken, he'd be more than happy to give you chapter and verse I'm sure He told me this only a few weeks back when I acquired a copy of the sheet music for the other side of the record...
Guest Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 You'd have to ask Ady, Ken, he'd be more than happy to give you chapter and verse I'm sure He told me this only a few weeks back when I acquired a copy of the sheet music for the other side of the record... Think the other side is the A side,cant rightly remember ? whats it like,crap ?
Pete S Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 "Frankie" was Maggie Bell, later lead singer of rock band Stone The Crows (among other things). She sang with two different "Johnny" s on two different records. I'm pretty sure that the "Johnny" on "I'll Hold You" is her fellow Scot Jimmy Dewar, who also later sang lead with a rock band, that of Robin Trower. "I'll Hold You" was discovered by our Ady, after Mick Smith had played the first couple of bars round Ady's flat and decreed it was crap. It was played everywhere as far as I know, and why wouldn't it be? Johnny is Johnny Curtis who did a great track called Our Loves Disintegrating on Parlophone. Check the voices, they're identical. He died in a car accident in the late 60's after recording for Major Minor...I think
Trev Thomas Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 "Frankie" was Maggie Bell, later lead singer of rock band Stone The Crows (among other things). She sang with two different "Johnny" s on two different records. I'm pretty sure that the "Johnny" on "I'll Hold You" is her fellow Scot Jimmy Dewar, who also later sang lead with a rock band, that of Robin Trower. "I'll Hold You" was discovered by our Ady, after Mick Smith had played the first couple of bars round Ady's flat and decreed it was crap. It was played everywhere as far as I know, and why wouldn't it be? hi tony, after ady rescued it from smiffys bin did he not give it to shay, or was it pete wid, remember shay playing it at yate covered up as billy vera & judy clay
Guest TONY ROUNCE Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Johnny is Johnny Curtis who did a great track called Our Loves Disintegrating on Parlophone. Check the voices, they're identical. He died in a car accident in the late 60's after recording for Major Minor...I think That being so, the "Johnny" on the other F & J single must be Jimmy Dewar. I've seen interviews with both, in 1970s issues, of Melody Maker, where they have both said "I was once in a duo with (the other one) called Frankie & Johnny". Jim Dewar was a great singer when he was with Robin Trower, a bit in the mold of Paul Rodgers or Jess Roden. I've many happy memories of going to see them c.1972/3 during one of my periodic (and usually very short) "I hate black music" phases...
Guest TONY ROUNCE Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 hi tony, after ady rescued it from smiffys bin did he not give it to shay, or was it pete wid, remember shay playing it at yate covered up as billy vera & judy clay I think it was indeed Mr. Widdison. I definitely think of it as a 'Yate record' although, of course, it wasn't just played at Yate...
Guest Bobble Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Thanks for the replys, its always subjective, one persons views of a tune compared to anothers. for me with this tune it was memories of a certain time with a certain person.. But i nether knew where or when the record was made, or by who so mystery solved. By the mention of 'our Ady' is that Ady croadsell {spelling} i recently went to the 100 club and there was Ady on the door the last time i had been there was 23 years ago and he just didnt look any older anyway. cheers
Pete S Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 That being so, the "Johnny" on the other F & J single must be Jimmy Dewar. I've seen interviews with both, in 1970s issues, of Melody Maker, where they have both said "I was once in a duo with (the other one) called Frankie & Johnny". Jim Dewar was a great singer when he was with Robin Trower, a bit in the mold of Paul Rodgers or Jess Roden. I've many happy memories of going to see them c.1972/3 during one of my periodic (and usually very short) "I hate black music" phases... I did have the MM press release where it said he'd been in the duo Frankie & Johnny but it's also in a book about the Scottish music scene of the 60's, who's name I've forgotten rending this post as useless as ever
Harry Crosby Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 hi tony, after ady rescued it from smiffys bin did he not give it to shay, or was it pete wid, remember shay playing it at yate covered up as billy vera & judy clay First time i heard it was at the oval ball in york in 77 by alan rhodes as frankie & johnny
Ady Croasdell Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 hi tony, after ady rescued it from smiffys bin did he not give it to shay, or was it pete wid, remember shay playing it at yate covered up as billy vera & judy clay I always thought it was Clarkie but i might be wrong, I used to get vair vair drunk in those days. It wouldn't have been yours Ken that Mick threw in the bin. It was one he'd picked up for 5 or 10p from a junk shop as a gamble and when he heard the first couple of bars decided it was pop crap. The bin was my wicker basket and I have a photo of a drunken girl asleep with her head in it somewhere; this was after the record had been taken out and in fact a totally separate incident.
Makemvinyl Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Thanks for the replys, its always subjective, one persons views of a tune compared to anothers. for me with this tune it was memories of a certain time with a certain person.. But i nether knew where or when the record was made, or by who so mystery solved. By the mention of 'our Ady' is that Ady croadsell {spelling} i recently went to the 100 club and there was Ady on the door the last time i had been there was 23 years ago and he just didnt look any older anyway. cheers yer need glasses
Guest Bobble Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 ok it was dark and my eyes are not so good now! sorry Ady
Tony Smith Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 I'm sure it even got played at wigan as Billy Vera & Judy Clay by Searling, Dave Molloy told me so and it was with respect to Clarkie. Kenny your copy was only a few years back 6? and a lucky find in Camden, 10 Bob!
Ady Croasdell Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 I'm sure it even got played at wigan as Billy Vera & Judy Clay by Searling, Dave Molloy told me so and it was with respect to Clarkie. Kenny your copy was only a few years back 6? and a lucky find in Camden, 10 Bob! Do you mean Searling followed Ian's lead?
Tony Smith Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Do you mean Searling followed Ian's lead? I would say he kept it covered as it was at Yate, Lawson said as much, I remember Dave Walmsley saying the same.
Guest Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Johnny is Johnny Curtis who did a great track called Our Loves Disintegrating on Parlophone. Check the voices, they're identical. He died in a car accident in the late 60's after recording for Major Minor...I think Johnny Curtis " Pickin' Up Pebbles " / " Gentle On My Mind " ( UK Major Minor # 564 , 1968 ) Malc Burton
Ste Henderson Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I'm sure it even got played at wigan as Billy Vera & Judy Clay by Searling, Dave Molloy told me so and it was with respect to Clarkie. Kenny your copy was only a few years back 6? and a lucky find in Camden, 10 Bob! It did get plays at Wigan around 77, but if memory serves me correctly it was not c/u for very long and got big spins at the Belle Vue Manchester all dayers, excellent vocals btw Steve
Guest Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) I'm sure it even got played at wigan as Billy Vera & Judy Clay by Searling, Dave Molloy told me so and it was with respect to Clarkie. Kenny your copy was only a few years back 6? and a lucky find in Camden, 10 Bob! More like 16 years Tone,been divorced 8 years. Edited January 29, 2009 by ken
Tony Smith Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Johnny is Johnny Curtis who did a great track called Our Loves Disintegrating on Parlophone. Check the voices, they're identical. He died in a car accident in the late 60's after recording for Major Minor...I think He also had releases on Hickory including "Go On Back" which got a few plays, years back, pretty sure there is no UK release on this.
timthemod Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Couple of interesting tracks, I just posted in refo soul but they won't load to the post, can someone cleverer than me please link them. They are Frankie & Johnny - I Wanna Make You Understand, and Johnny Curtis - Go On Back. Thanks TTM Edited January 29, 2009 by timthemod
Neil Rushton Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I did have the MM press release where it said he'd been in the duo Frankie & Johnny but it's also in a book about the Scottish music scene of the 60's, who's name I've forgotten rending this post as useless as ever When we licenced it for Inferno we were sent publicity photograph but told we could not use it as the father of "Johnny" was so distraught that he had died in motor bike accident that he did not want to see any photographs. The photograph is on the Soulvation web site.
Dave Moore Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 When we licenced it for Inferno we were sent publicity photograph but told we could not use it as the father of "Johnny" was so distraught that he had died in motor bike accident that he did not want to see any photographs. The photograph is on the Soulvation web site. Neil, Haven't you got BBC Philharmonic performance of this on acetate? Or am I confused it with something else?
Neil Rushton Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Neil, Haven't you got BBC Philharmonic performance of this on acetate? Or am I confused it with something else? No it's a performance recorded for Top Of The Tops that was never broadcast. Sounds brilliant!
Jeffking Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 When we licenced it for Inferno we were sent publicity photograph but told we could not use it as the father of "Johnny" was so distraught that he had died in motor bike accident that he did not want to see any photographs. The photograph is on the Soulvation web site. Is this the same Neil Rushton that used to go to Brownhills Memo (or the youth club next door) cheers , Jeff King
Guest Mrs M Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) I'm sure it even got played at wigan as Billy Vera & Judy Clay by Searling, Dave Molloy told me so and it was with respect to Clarkie. Kenny your copy was only a few years back 6? and a lucky find in Camden, 10 Bob! Sorry Tony I just mentioned this to Dave and he distinctively reiterated the same story as Adey without me even having to mention Adey's story of Mick Smith and the waste paper bin so it looks like someone else told you about the c/u at Wigan, not my hubby Dave Molloy. By the way Dave says hi, ah hey hey, they are naked and they move, they are naked and they move!!!! Edited January 30, 2009 by Mrs M
Tony Smith Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Sorry Tony I just mentioned this to Dave and he distinctively reiterated the same story as Adey without me even having to mention Adey's story of Mick Smith and the waste paper bin so it looks like someone else told you about the c/u at Wigan, not my hubby Dave Molloy. By the way Dave says hi, ah hey hey, they are naked and they move, they are naked and they move!!!! Heh heh, the old memory playing tricks on me (again), wonder where I got that from? Tell Dave Mr. Endell sends his regards. Edited January 31, 2009 by Tony Smith
NUFCSOUL Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Been trying to get to the bottom of this one for ever since I got my Hickory issue and just now a friend (cheers Lindsey) who just bought an Inferno got sent this info. Is the Scottish link now as plausible as the Loch Ness monster?? and do we have the true ID at last? Read on and decide - 'Frankie' (K.T. Oslin; 1942 - ) & 'Johnny' ( Scott Holtzman; 19?? - ) I never thought that finding out the identity of Frankie & Johnny could be so difficult, even in this day and age. Their nationality has been shrouded in mystery for a long time, and it may be the fact that the rarest format of "I'll Hold You" is on UK Decca, that Frankie & Johnny have often been rumoured to be British - I even read somewhere that they were Scottish! In reality, 'Frankie' hides the identity of Kay Toinette Oslin (usually known as K.T. Oslin), a Grammy-winning country singer. She was born in Crossett, Arkansas, then moved to Memphis, Tennessee, and finally to Houston, Texax. It was there that she recorded a couple of 45s for the International Artists label, with singing partner, 'Johnny'. The male half of the duo is Scott Holtzman, who also recorded with his wife Vivian, but is most noted as a producer. The single on offer here was originally released on Nashville's Hickory label, where even some of the bona fide soul titles possessed a country feel. Most of the Hickory singles that saw a British release in the mid-60s, did so on a UK equivalent of the same label, and the obvious example is Barbara Mills' "Queen Of Fools". Barbara's brother was Larry Henley, lead singer of The Newbeats, and that trio also recorded a run of pop stompers, most of which were released via Hickory on both sides of the Atlantic. When UK Hickory ceased to be a viable label in the UK, late in 1966, London-American took over release of it's output. I assume that Decca, being the parent label, released Frankie & Johnny during the intervening period. The Decca numbering system for singles nearly always starts with '12' digits (for example, John E. Paul is 12685). Only a relative few begin with '22' digits, and this usually denotes what was known as an 'export single', which carried export restrictions. Other examples include The Bats from South Africa, and Los Bravos from Spain. "I'll Hold You" was originally the B-side to another neat Northern dancer called "(Never) Gonna Leave You", and the song itself was penned by George Patterson, Bobby Kerr, and Margaret Bell. This latter name has given rise to claims that 'Frankie' hides the identity of Maggie Bell, the Scottish lead singer with Stone The Crows. The same source reveals 'Johnny' to be Johnny Curtis (another Scottish singer), and also states that the single was 'discovered' by Mick Smith, in 1977. I won't debate the latter claim, but can bury once and for all the Scottish myth. Both songs were handled by Acuff-Rose (the Nashville publishing company), Frankie & Johnny's two International Artists singles were produced by Ray Rush, in Houston, and one of those tunes was co-produced by Scott 'Johnny' Holtzman and Vivian Holtzman, two more Americans. How much more proof do you need?! Are we convinced?? Cheers Tony 1
Pete S Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Been trying to get to the bottom of this one for ever since I got my Hickory issue and just now a friend (cheers Lindsey) who just bought an Inferno got sent this info. Is the Scottish link now as plausible as the Loch Ness monster?? and do we have the true ID at last? Read on and decide - 'Frankie' (K.T. Oslin; 1942 - ) & 'Johnny' ( Scott Holtzman; 19?? - ) I never thought that finding out the identity of Frankie & Johnny could be so difficult, even in this day and age. Their nationality has been shrouded in mystery for a long time, and it may be the fact that the rarest format of "I'll Hold You" is on UK Decca, that Frankie & Johnny have often been rumoured to be British - I even read somewhere that they were Scottish! In reality, 'Frankie' hides the identity of Kay Toinette Oslin (usually known as K.T. Oslin), a Grammy-winning country singer. She was born in Crossett, Arkansas, then moved to Memphis, Tennessee, and finally to Houston, Texax. It was there that she recorded a couple of 45s for the International Artists label, with singing partner, 'Johnny'. The male half of the duo is Scott Holtzman, who also recorded with his wife Vivian, but is most noted as a producer. The single on offer here was originally released on Nashville's Hickory label, where even some of the bona fide soul titles possessed a country feel. Most of the Hickory singles that saw a British release in the mid-60s, did so on a UK equivalent of the same label, and the obvious example is Barbara Mills' "Queen Of Fools". Barbara's brother was Larry Henley, lead singer of The Newbeats, and that trio also recorded a run of pop stompers, most of which were released via Hickory on both sides of the Atlantic. When UK Hickory ceased to be a viable label in the UK, late in 1966, London-American took over release of it's output. I assume that Decca, being the parent label, released Frankie & Johnny during the intervening period. The Decca numbering system for singles nearly always starts with '12' digits (for example, John E. Paul is 12685). Only a relative few begin with '22' digits, and this usually denotes what was known as an 'export single', which carried export restrictions. Other examples include The Bats from South Africa, and Los Bravos from Spain. "I'll Hold You" was originally the B-side to another neat Northern dancer called "(Never) Gonna Leave You", and the song itself was penned by George Patterson, Bobby Kerr, and Margaret Bell. This latter name has given rise to claims that 'Frankie' hides the identity of Maggie Bell, the Scottish lead singer with Stone The Crows. The same source reveals 'Johnny' to be Johnny Curtis (another Scottish singer), and also states that the single was 'discovered' by Mick Smith, in 1977. I won't debate the latter claim, but can bury once and for all the Scottish myth. Both songs were handled by Acuff-Rose (the Nashville publishing company), Frankie & Johnny's two International Artists singles were produced by Ray Rush, in Houston, and one of those tunes was co-produced by Scott 'Johnny' Holtzman and Vivian Holtzman, two more Americans. How much more proof do you need?! Are we convinced?? Cheers Tony What an absolute load of tosh, is it April Fools Day or something
Garethx Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 (edited) Been trying to get to the bottom of this one for ever since I got my Hickory issue and just now a friend (cheers Lindsey) who just bought an Inferno got sent this info. Is the Scottish link now as plausible as the Loch Ness monster?? and do we have the true ID at last? Read on and decide - 'Frankie' (K.T. Oslin; 1942 - ) & 'Johnny' ( Scott Holtzman; 19?? - ) I never thought that finding out the identity of Frankie & Johnny could be so difficult, even in this day and age. Their nationality has been shrouded in mystery for a long time, and it may be the fact that the rarest format of "I'll Hold You" is on UK Decca, that Frankie & Johnny have often been rumoured to be British - I even read somewhere that they were Scottish! In reality, 'Frankie' hides the identity of Kay Toinette Oslin (usually known as K.T. Oslin), a Grammy-winning country singer. She was born in Crossett, Arkansas, then moved to Memphis, Tennessee, and finally to Houston, Texax. It was there that she recorded a couple of 45s for the International Artists label, with singing partner, 'Johnny'. The male half of the duo is Scott Holtzman, who also recorded with his wife Vivian, but is most noted as a producer. The single on offer here was originally released on Nashville's Hickory label, where even some of the bona fide soul titles possessed a country feel. Most of the Hickory singles that saw a British release in the mid-60s, did so on a UK equivalent of the same label, and the obvious example is Barbara Mills' "Queen Of Fools". Barbara's brother was Larry Henley, lead singer of The Newbeats, and that trio also recorded a run of pop stompers, most of which were released via Hickory on both sides of the Atlantic. When UK Hickory ceased to be a viable label in the UK, late in 1966, London-American took over release of it's output. I assume that Decca, being the parent label, released Frankie & Johnny during the intervening period. The Decca numbering system for singles nearly always starts with '12' digits (for example, John E. Paul is 12685). Only a relative few begin with '22' digits, and this usually denotes what was known as an 'export single', which carried export restrictions. Other examples include The Bats from South Africa, and Los Bravos from Spain. "I'll Hold You" was originally the B-side to another neat Northern dancer called "(Never) Gonna Leave You", and the song itself was penned by George Patterson, Bobby Kerr, and Margaret Bell. This latter name has given rise to claims that 'Frankie' hides the identity of Maggie Bell, the Scottish lead singer with Stone The Crows. The same source reveals 'Johnny' to be Johnny Curtis (another Scottish singer), and also states that the single was 'discovered' by Mick Smith, in 1977. I won't debate the latter claim, but can bury once and for all the Scottish myth. Both songs were handled by Acuff-Rose (the Nashville publishing company), Frankie & Johnny's two International Artists singles were produced by Ray Rush, in Houston, and one of those tunes was co-produced by Scott 'Johnny' Holtzman and Vivian Holtzman, two more Americans. How much more proof do you need?! Are we convinced?? Cheers Tony *EDIT*. You're right about Frankie Kay & Johnny Scott on International Artists being KT Oslin and Scott Holzman but these are not the same duo as the one under discussion here. The F&J singles on Houston's International Artists label are folk rock/garage. The Frankie & Johnny 45 on Hickory states "A DECLON PRODUCTION" which I always assumed to be shorthand for Decca, London. The fact that the song is published by Acuff Rose is interesting though: I wonder if there are indeed other, Nashville-originated versions. A magnificent record. I have blown my soul police credentials twice in the last week by declaring a love for Custer's Last Band and now this. No matter, as to paraphrase a very wise man "if you don't like this you don't like music." Edited October 26, 2009 by garethx
Pete S Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Also decca did not release records originating from the USA, they had London and RCA to do that, whereas Hickory records came out on, er Hickory in the UK at the time that Frankie & Johnny was released.
NUFCSOUL Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Don't know which record salesperson it's from by the way but to go to so much trouble seems - well, bizarre to say the least - especially when attaching the info to the sale of an Inferno pressing. Does any of it make sense to anyone as duo's of the same name seem to be cross referenced/mixed up here? It may be 'tosh' as Pete S says and maybe we are still no nearer to an answer - if anyone is bothered that is! Tony
Pete S Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Don't know which record salesperson it's from by the way but to go to so much trouble seems - well, bizarre to say the least - especially when attaching the info to the sale of an Inferno pressing. Does any of it make sense to anyone as duo's of the same name seem to be cross referenced/mixed up here? It may be 'tosh' as Pete S says and maybe we are still no nearer to an answer - if anyone is bothered that is! Tony I don't get this Tony, I've told everyone who they are, Tony Rounce has, other people have - it is Maggie bell and Johnny Curtis - I've seen it in print on the Johnny Curtis Major Minor press release and in a book on Scottish rock I read years ago.
Pete S Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Quote from Maggie Bell biography: 12 January 1945, Glasgow, Scotland. Bell's career began in the mid-60s as the featured singer in several resident dancehall bands. She made her recording debut in 1966, completing two singles with Bobby Kerr under the name Frankie And Johnny. (Bobby kerr = johnny curtis)
NUFCSOUL Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Hey I only posted info someone sent me - don't shoot the messenger! If it's crap then so be it - I've posted a message on the official Maggie Bell site and I hope to hell she remembers singing the bloody thing!
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