Spencer Wiggins

[Guest Andy Kempster]

what label is this on and any idea on price?

[Garethx]

what label is this on and any idea on price?

Many topics on here about this record. An unissued Goldwax recording done at Fame Studios, possibly at the same sessions as Spencer's last Goldwax 45, Soul City USA / I Never Loved A Woman. Doubts about who actually owns the master have meant there's been no definitely legitimate release so far. First appeared on a Japanese Vivid Sound compilation some years ago and has appeared on several UK pressed 45s of dubious origin since then. These can be picked up for various prices, but shouldn't be too expensive.

[Guest Andy Kempster]

Many topics on here about this record. An unissued Goldwax recording done at Fame Studios, possibly at the same sessions as Spencer's last Goldwax 45, Soul City USA / I Never Loved A Woman. Doubts about who actually owns the master have meant there's been no definitely legitimate release so far. First appeared on a Japanese Vivid Sound compilation some years ago and has appeared on several UK pressed 45s of dubious origin since then. These can be picked up for various prices, but shouldn't be too expensive.

i have it on a goldsoul LP so that is probably as legit as it gets

[Garethx]

i have it on a goldsoul LP so that is probably as legit as it gets

Yes. I'd love to know how they square that one.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Yes. I'd love to know how they square that one.

Short answer it they don't - they simply bootlegged it.

This is one of a handful of Goldwax recordings that were sold, along with Spencer's contract, to Fame when Quinton Claunch discontinuued the label in the very early 1970s. The master is very definitley owned by Fame.

Ace is hoping to release all these Goldwax/Fame tracks on a forthcoming Kent CD along with other Spencer Wiggins material from the same timeframe.

[Guest Andy Kempster]

Short answer it they don't - they simply bootlegged it.

This is one of a handful of Goldwax recordings that were sold, along with Spencer's contract, to Fame when Quinton Claunch discontinuued the label in the very early 1970s. The master is very definitley owned by Fame.

Ace is hoping to release all these Goldwax/Fame tracks on a forthcoming Kent CD along with other Spencer Wiggins material from the same timeframe.

so no legit spin for it, thats a shame, what a great record

[Guest]

so no legit spin for it, thats a shame, what a great record

i thought the TORCH release was legit?

licensed fron VIVID SOUND UK LTD

Edited January 24, 2009 by mikecook

[Guest]

This is what JM says:

This from the vaults juggernaut of Memhis Northern Soul dancer was only a track off a JAPAN CD. This the small UK 45 press from 1998. Check sound clip, & prepare yourself for an out-of this-world previously unissued Goldwax session of mega proportions

£15

[Garethx]

i thought the TORCH release was legit?

licensed fron VIVID SOUND UK LTD

I think the bone of contention was that Vivid Sound Japan should never have released the track in the first place as it was a Fame recording rather than a Goldwax one as Tony outlines above.

Good to hear Ace are finally putting this out legitimately. I'm sure it will eventually be a strong-selling 45 at some point, but it will be good to hear it in context alongside other Spencer Wiggins' recordings of the time: a truly awe-inspiring body of work.

As an aside it might make a good media thread if people were to post up a "Northern side of Fame" topic as there's no doubt the various incarnations of the Fame band could really cook with gas when it came to danceable soul (as opposed to the deep soul they are perhaps more famous for).

I've been playing Arthur Conley's "I Can't Stop (No No No)" almost constantly these past few days which really bounds along with much gusto. Along with the obvious classics like James Barnett, Arthur Freeman, Clarence Carter, Brothers Unlimited etc. there is a wealth of great uptempo music from this quarter on various labels.

[Guest]

I think the bone of contention was that Vivid Sound Japan should never have released the track in the first place as it was a Fame recording rather than a Goldwax one as Tony outlines above.

Good to hear Ace are finally putting this out legitimately. I'm sure it will eventually be a strong-selling 45 at some point, but it will be good to hear it in context alongside other Spencer Wiggins' recordings of the time: a truly awe-inspiring body of work.

As an aside it might make a good media thread if people were to post up a "Northern side of Fame" topic as there's no doubt the various incarnations of the Fame band could really cook with gas when it came to danceable soul (as opposed to the deep soul they are perhaps more famous for).

I've been playing Arthur Conley's "I Can't Stop (No No No)" almost constantly these past few days which really bounds along with much gusto. Along with the obvious classics like James Barnett, Arthur Freeman, Clarence Carter, Brothers Unlimited etc. there is a wealth of great uptempo music from this quarter on various labels.

thanks for that, I missed Tony's bit.

this is a serious question and not meant to intice an argument to the playing of bootlegs:

if this track is 'unissued', is it ok to play out the Torch copy?

as i understand it, if a record is unreleased it is ok to get a carver (bootleg) made and play that out - so does the same princilple apply to the Torch 'bootleg'?

[Garethx]

thanks for that, I missed Tony's bit.

this is a serious question and not meant to intice an argument to the playing of bootlegs:

if this track is 'unissued', is it ok to play out the Torch copy?

as i understand it, if a record is unreleased it is ok to get a carver (bootleg) made and play that out - so does the same princilple apply to the Torch 'bootleg'?

It's a can of worms really Mike. Releases like the Torch 45 were presumably made to be sold commercially at a profit, while a one-off carver of an unreleased track is generally done with the aim of having a 'playable' copy of the recording for deejaying purposes only.

I see an ethical distinction there, others don't.

In my book playing this on anything other than an original studio disc until the legitimately licensed release comes out would be effectively deejaying with a bootleg: unnecessary when A) the tune has been hammered for about for two decades and there are literally thousands of underexposed, legally released sides worthy of turntable action to be getting on with.

Obviously we see examples of people selling carvers of rare/unreleased tracks in quantity through ebay and so on, which is dodgy from every standpoint.

Can anyone say definitively who first spun the Spencer Wiggins record in Northern Soul clubs? I have a memory of Rob Marriott playing it and wonder if he was the first to do so. It would have been a shame if this had never been given a wider audience outside those who buy Japanese compilation CDs and at the time the conflict over the ownership of the recording wasn't widely known.

Edited January 24, 2009 by garethx

[Guest]

Releases like the Torch 45 were presumably made to be sold commercially at a profit, while a one-off carver of an unreleased track is generally done with the aim of having a 'playable' copy of the recording for deejaying purposes only.

I see an ethical distinction there, others don't.

thanks for the reply.

That sounds like a reasonable & acceptable answer to my question.

[Benji]

Can anyone say definitively who first spun the Spencer Wiggins record in Northern Soul clubs? I have a memory of Rob Marriott playing it and wonder if he was the first to do so. .

Didn't somebody write in Shades of Soul that it was actually Brian Rare who started playing it off the japanese CD or off a dub taken from the CD?

[Steve L]

Can anyone say definitively who first spun the Spencer Wiggins record in Northern Soul clubs? I have a memory of Rob Marriott playing it and wonder if he was the first to do so. It would have been a shame if this had never been given a wider audience outside those who buy Japanese compilation CDs and at the time the conflict over the ownership of the recording wasn't widely known.

What would Rob have been playing off then Gareth? He packed in 15 years ago, wouldnt this have been before the japanese cd? I though that was when it first came to light.

Only really heard andy dyson play this out a lot, what does he play it from - chalky?

Also dont think the fact that its not had a legit release should stop it being played out,

[Guest soulfulmouse]

Didn't somebody write in Shades of Soul that it was actually Brian Rare who started playing it off the japanese CD or off a dub taken from the CD?

didn't rob marriot play this in his spots of an acetate?seem too remember him playing it a few times?

[pikeys dog]

Was definately played early to mid nineties - then it came out on the dubious ''UK" Soul Series 45 backed with "Call On Me" - Percy Wiggins.

Manships UK guide says 1997, which is probably about right.

[Garethx]

What would Rob have been playing off then Gareth? He packed in 15 years ago, wouldnt this have been before the japanese cd? I though that was when it first came to light.

Only really heard andy dyson play this out a lot, what does he play it from - chalky?

Also dont think the fact that its not had a legit release should stop it being played out,

The Japanese Vivid Sound CD has been around a very long time. I'll try and dig mine out (CDs are in the cellar) and see if there's a date on it, but I'm thinking late 80s. Hard to believe that was getting on for twenty years ago now.

[Tony Smith]

The Japanese Vivid Sound CD has been around a very long time. I'll try and dig mine out (CDs are in the cellar) and see if there's a date on it, but I'm thinking late 80s. Hard to believe that was getting on for twenty years ago now.

Myself and Rob were both playing it at the same time early 90's, Mark Taylor had mentioned Searling playing it, I couldn't get hold of the P-Vine/Vivid cd instead I got the main source of the CD (can't remember who that was now) to send me a tape of the track and cut from that, it is a slightly different mix to the subsequent releases of it by the way.

[Garethx]

Myself and Rob were both playing it at the same time early 90's, Mark Taylor had mentioned Searling playing it, I couldn't get hold of the P-Vine/Vivid cd instead I got the main source of the CD (can't remember who that was now) to send me a tape of the track and cut from that, it is a slightly different mix to the subsequent releases of it by the way.

Thanks Tony, I knew I wasn't imagining Rob playing it and that time frame seems completely correct too: early 90s rather than late 80s. I'm guessing Dave Porter would have been the UK point of contact for the Vivid Sound stuff.

Mark was certainly a font of knowledge on Japanese releases in those days. I remember him doing a fantastic tape for me of Japanese-only things which were coming through HMV (in very limited quantity) at the time. Much of the stuff is still underexposed now, while some tracks, like Tommy Tate's I Can't Do Enough have since rightly become classics.

Edited January 24, 2009 by garethx

[Sean Hampsey]

Fame / Goldwax Completist, Kevin Briscoe, played "Lets Talk It Over" immediately it came out on the Jap CD - prior to Brian Rae etc. and well before the various Boots and Acetates emerged.

Agree with Brother Rounce. Technically all releases of this are illegitimate at this moment in time, because of the licensing anomaly.

Bravo to Kent though should it eventually come out!

Worth noting that it was actually recorded at Fame, as were many Goldwax 'recordings (they had no studio of their own).

I visited Fame Studios (East Avalon Ave) & Muscle Shoals Sound (3614 Jackson Highway) last year (hence my Avatar).

Heard a lot of mindblowing tales. Its a truly magical place.

They recently sent me the Jimmy Hughes 'Best Of' compilation. It's mouth watering to consider what else might come through, now they've started to dig into the back catalogue.

Personal fave Spencer 45 is the Sound Of Memphis coupling of "I Can't Be Satisfied" b/w "Take Time To Love Your Woman" which I used to hammer, way back at Cleggy.

All incredible tunes from an outstanding vocalist (up there with Carr & Pickett IMO), but agree, Gareth, the Arthur Conley "I Can't Stop" (Aint That Peculiar soundalike) is a cracker.

A Fame Thread would be a winner mate.

Sean

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

To be fair to the Japanese, they probably put it out in good faith, as being merely "Goldwax Unissued", without realising that, technically speaking, they were bootlegging it. They may not have seen the paperwork which shows that it was one of the masters that was sold to Goldwax , along with Spencer's contract.

Nothing even slightly legal about the Goldsoul release, though...

[Guest]

Also dont think the fact that its not had a legit release should stop it being played out,

Even so, just to stay within the realms of etiquette, I may make a one-off carver from my Torch recording so I have a playble copy for DJ'ing purposes

[heikki 1]

Arthur Conley's "I Can't Stop (No No No)"

Ady wrote "southern soul with style" on the sleeve notes when it was put on a Kent compilation.

On the Goldmine LP compilation, "Let's talk it over" suddenly turns louder at 30 secs or something...

[Eddie Hubbard]

Rob's acetate of Spencer Wiggins was cut from my Jap. CD .Richard S. used to play it as well on his Sunset radio " Soul Source " prog .Best,Eddie

[Kevinkent]

Fame / Goldwax Completist, Kevin Briscoe, played "Lets Talk It Over" immediately it came out on the Jap CD - prior to Brian Rae etc. and well before the various Boots and Acetates emerged.

Agree with Brother Rounce. Technically all releases of this are illegitimate at this moment in time, because of the licensing anomaly.

Sean

Following a previous thread on here I've been playing my SoulSeries copy out. Don't recall what the previous thread said exactly, though I know the concensus of opinion was that it was OK to play.

- Kev.

[Tony Smith]

Fame / Goldwax Completist, Kevin Briscoe, played "Lets Talk It Over" immediately it came out on the Jap CD - prior to Brian Rae etc. and well before the various Boots and Acetates emerged.

Sean

Rob and myself were playing it well before any boots were made, and I played it at the Wilton and other northern venues well before Brian did, as Eddie said Searling played it a few times around the time Parkers was going.

[Ady Croasdell]

There's actually an interesting twist to this tale that should get sorted in the next couple of months when it will finally get its first ever 100% legal release!

[Sean Hampsey]

Rob and myself were playing it well before any boots were made, and I played it at the Wilton and other northern venues well before Brian did, as Eddie said Searling played it a few times around the time Parkers was going.

Kevin had it before Searling, Tony.

He's the Goldwax & Fame Meister and was the first to have it outside Japan.

What Kevin does on Monday, we all do on Thursday.

Please tell us more, Ady...

Sean

[Ady Croasdell]

Kevin had it before Searling, Tony.

He's the Goldwax & Fame Meister and was the first to have it outside Japan.

What Kevin does on Monday, we all do on Thursday.

Please tell us more, Ady...

Sean

All in good time: now get back to those Joe Simon CDs!

Edited January 25, 2009 by ady croasdell

[Tony Smith]

There's actually an interesting twist to this tale that should get sorted in the next couple of months when it will finally get its first ever 100% legal release!

Along with Sean, I'm intrigued and await with baited breath.

[Dewsburyborn]

I visited Fame Studios (East Avalon Ave) & Muscle Shoals Sound (3614 Jackson Highway) last year (hence my Avatar). Sean

wot ?? no Broadway Sound ?? or MSS down by the river ?? surely some mistake ??

[Sean Hampsey]

All in good time: now get back to those Joe Simon CDs!

Joe is looking GOOD Ady.

Will be with you soon!

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

wot ?? no Broadway Sound ?? or MSS down by the river ?? surely some mistake ??

They wouldn't let us in, once we told 'em we were Yorkshiremen, Gary!

[KevH]

Rob's acetate of Spencer Wiggins was cut from my Jap. CD .Richard S. used to play it as well on his Sunset radio " Soul Source " prog .Best,Eddie

That's what Rob told me many years ago.

[Dennisoul]

There's actually an interesting twist to this tale that should get sorted in the next couple of months when it will finally get its first ever 100% legal release!

Ady will this be part of the KENT Select series?

cheers, Andy

Edited January 25, 2009 by Dennisoul

[Ady Croasdell]

Ady will this be part of the KENT Select series?

cheers, Andy

No Andy it'll be a standard kent Dance CD as it's gonna be the Northern side of Goldwax.

[Sean Hampsey]

No Andy it'll be a standard kent Dance CD as it's gonna be the Northern side of Goldwax.

Sounds Awesome...

... will pm you.

Sean

[Dennisoul]

No Andy it'll be a standard kent Dance CD as it's gonna be the Northern side of Goldwax.

Thanks for that sir

[Pete S]

Even so, just to stay within the realms of etiquette, I may make a one-off carver from my Torch recording so I have a playble copy for DJ'ing purposes

KInnell Mike, just play your Torch copy, you won't be arrested..

Edited January 26, 2009 by Pete S

[Pete S]

I've been playing Arthur Conley's "I Can't Stop (No No No)" almost constantly these past few days which really bounds along with much gusto. Along with the obvious classics like James Barnett, Arthur Freeman, Clarence Carter, Brothers Unlimited etc. there is a wealth of great uptempo music from this quarter on various labels.

I've a mint stock copy of this if anyone wants it, £30. Monster deep track on the other side by the way

[binsy]

Along with Sean, I'm intrigued and await with baited breath.

Tony do you remember when we used to to the Carved red lion and I played Spencers uptempo version of 'Love attack ' from the jap lp to a bemused 'one man and his dog'

[Ady Croasdell]

Tony do you remember when we used to to the Carved red lion and I played Spencers uptempo version of 'Love attack ' from the jap lp to a bemused 'one man and his dog'

Funnily enough that's t'other Goldwax/Fame we're going for on the proposed CD. Great version but I'm not mentioning the club with the lowest ceiling; very limiting on my pogoing at the time.

[Tony Smith]

Tony do you remember when we used to to the Carved red lion and I played Spencers uptempo version of 'Love attack ' from the jap lp to a bemused 'one man and his dog'

Remember it well, we gave quite a few Goldwax sides spins down there, back then.

[Tony Smith]

Funnily enough that's t'other Goldwax/Fame we're going for on the proposed CD. Great version but I'm not mentioning the club with the lowest ceiling; very limiting on my pogoing at the time.

Plus the floor was sloping, which added to the fun!

[Guest Andy Kempster]

There's actually an interesting twist to this tale that should get sorted in the next couple of months when it will finally get its first ever 100% legal release!

then put me down for one of those please Ady and I shall put the LP and the torch release back

[Guest]

KInnell Mike, just play your Torch copy, you won't be arrested..

Every intention of doing just that Pete

My comment was more to show how ridiculous some of the 'rules' people would want others to follow really can be.

I mean for heavens sakes!!!

Apparently it is ok to get a bootleg made of a bootleg to play out, but you cannot play the bootleg

I only wish these 'rulemakers' would stop and liten to what they are saying sometimes

[Chalky]

Every intention of doing just that Pete

My comment was more to show how ridiculous some of the 'rules' people would want others to follow really can be.

I mean for heavens sakes!!!

Apparently it is ok to get a bootleg made of a bootleg to play out, but you cannot play the bootleg

I only wish these 'rulemakers' would stop and liten to what they are saying sometimes

maybe cd players should be used and then play it from the original cd, same with other tracks released for the first time on cd

[Ady Croasdell]

maybe cd players should be used and then play it from the original cd, same with other tracks released for the first time on cd

Good idea, but the CD was inadvertently a bootleg

Mike who has said all the ridiculous things you've quoted? I didn't see them on here; it could be a case of the apocryphal EEC straight bananas. I think if people don't like DJs playing bootlegs they can express an opinion and the same goes for selling bootlegs. This case just happens to be hilarious because the mistakes were honest; a similar case was the Donnie Elbert 'So Soon' now not generally thought to be by Chris Bartley.

[Chalky]

Good idea, but the CD was inadvertently a bootleg

aye I know Ady, I was just throwing a spanner in the works Daft really when we spend 10/15 quid, more in some cases...imports etc for unissued tracks and then spend £20 getting a cut done

[Chalky]

How much does the original cd go for these days?