Frank Wilson - Do I Love You

[Guest gordon russell]

Unfortunately i think it's become a symbol for many of the oldies nostalgia soul night scene, where big sounds are played off boots and CDs and obviously aren't originals because the DJs playing them are known to not own them. In other words it has (unfortunately for the record) become synonymous in most people's minds with the playing of boots and CDs. I expect when they say they don't like Frank Wilson they really mean they've had enough of hearing the same 50 sounds played off boots everywhere they go. So you're right, they probably don't hate the record, they just hate the associations it now has. Shame really.

Personally i can take it or leave it, it's never been a big favourite of mine. I'm not going to say i like it on this thread just so i don't look like one of the copycat FW haters. Maybe we need a 'I just don't like it overplayed or not' category?

spot on ...fw is just synonymous with all that NORTHERN SOUL baggy trooser living in the past ethos that somehow makes the soul scene seem a bit of a joke to a lot of folk.......as a record l like it.....sure beats joe jampot and barbera mills

[Guest mel brat]

Category 3 on the voting options was "I prefer to sit on the fence, my opinions don't count"....its quite surprising that 3 people have now voted for that option.

I voted that way for the reasons put forward in my post. As I was no longer going to Wigan when it was first aired, but can appreciate it's (initial) appeal, I think it's only fair I cast a neutral vote!

"I expect when they say they don't like Frank Wilson they really mean they've had enough of hearing the same 50 sounds played off boots everywhere they go. So you're right, they probably don't hate the record, they just hate the associations it now has. Shame really..."

I agree with the above.

You'll also notice also that I didn't state that it was a "crap" record - because it self evidently ISN'T. It wasn't my particular bag in 1978, but it's clearly a good example of Northern Soul. It is certainly overplayed, overhyped (and overpriced!), but crap it ain't. There are far worse records played every day of the week!

However no, I haven't yet tired of Ruby Andrews - or The Carstairs, Voices of East Harlem and Mel Britt (not surprisingly!) and play them regularly at home. Those who are tired of hearing Frank Wilson and the above can blame second-rate, lazy DJs with no imagination, along with the over proliferation of "oldies" nights and - (let's not forget), those dirty rotten BOOTLEGGERS!

Edited January 11, 2009 by mel brat

[Guest Matt Male]

There needs to be a divide between 'quality northern soul' and 'timeless masterpiece', maybe quality northern but i can't believe 70% plus people think it's a 'timeless masterpiece'

Edited January 11, 2009 by Matt Male

[kevinsoulman]

standing in the casino for the first time in the late 70s then hearing that intro was just mind blowing,still love it but im sure there is still stuff still in motowns vaults that could hit me just as much.

kev

[Guest familytree]

Its a classic N.S tune and as it was played at my dear friend 'paul guntrip's funeral, it will always hold a special place in my heart... the guy had taste so no question its a tune! Jumpinjoan trying to remember if it was played at Petes funeral too? x

Edited January 11, 2009 by familytree

[Guest Nik Mak]

Its a classic N.S tune and as it was played at my dear friend 'paul guntrip's funeral, it will always hold a special place in my heart... the guy had taste so no question its a tune!

Totally agree. Doesn't matter if you don't like it now it's what it did to you way back when you first heard it! To 99.9% of the people back in the day the first time they heard this record it took the roof off & if anyone denies that their bullshitting! This record MADE you dance. This record made you want to learn more about the music. This record defined a movement of youth culture. This record (for a time) WAS Northern Soul. Ofcourse it's a feckin' classic.

[Jerry Hipkiss]

Its a classic N.S tune and as it was played at my dear friend 'paul guntrip's funeral, it will always hold a special place in my heart... the guy had taste so no question its a tune! Jumpinjoan trying to remember if it was played at Petes funeral too? x

Off topic I know, but on t'radio over the weekend I heard an old pop stomper - Paintbox "Get ready for love", and thought of Paul as it's his old copy which sits in my collection!

Back on topic, Nick, you're right, just remember the sheer exhilaration of hearing it when it was first being spun!

[Our Kid]

Over played by now deffo, but back in the day when it first went out as Eddie Foster there were 2 elements to it:

Russ had a tune that rivalled anything that Searling or Sam etc could spin.I always thought that was a good thing coz that Russ lad used ta get a lorra lorra stick!

Quite frankly it could have stayed elusive/covered up almost forever were it not for the fact it was booted instantly and I think that must've been Russ's choice(bit of dosh for someone no doubt, but it doesn't take away the fact that as one of THE rarest tunes on the scene it was made available to the masses instantly)

My opinion on the tune........can usually spot a good tune quickly but only 2 tunes have knocked me down flat on 1st hearing DILY and IDLTL - the epitome of what it's all about for me.

Paul

[Citizen P]

Huh? I wasn't aware Frank Wilson was known in 1974!

As an example of the classic Northern Soul style it's a fine record, but the hype and general overkill have long soured it's impact. I wouldn't mind if I didn't hear it again for a long, long time. Besides which it has become a touchstone for those folk who are generally ignorant of the many other equally good records that the Northern scene - past and present - has to offer, let alone Soul music in general.

Surely almost everyone who needs to has heard of it by now, and I'm SO tired of seeing ill-informed articles (not to mention books, plays and TV interviews!) about Northern Soul that can't resist mentioning how much it sold for, rather than a description of it's true merits as a record! This reinforces the notion that the whole UK scene is more excited by rarity (and subsequent monetary value) than quality. Something I frequently have to agree with!

Personally speaking, it's far from being my own favourite Northern tune let alone Soul side, and I doubt it would even register in my top 50 Northern (though that doesn't detract from it's significance as a kind of short-hand guide to the Northern scene for beginners!) But dear God! let's give mentions of Frank Wilson a rest for the sake of our collective sanity!

Largely agree, couldn't understand what all the fuss was about in the first place.

It's a decent enough tune, but been battered to death for so long and so often that I'm personally sick to the back teeth with it.

I have the misfortune to go to several Corporate do's each year and can guarantee that during the after meal Disco you'll hear " here's some Northern Soul", then he'll play 3

Do I love You

Out on the Floor

&

The Snake

Thankfully just enough time for a nice Cigar

ATB

Tony

[grant]

yeah theres hundreds better on the scene but for me had to vote the top one as it is a touch of class as a tune, even if a tad overplayed folks. even my bro likes it and he hates northern soul lol. funny used to get on my tits when they battered it at wigan, porefer it now!

Grant

[Manfromsoul45s]

When you think of the fact that there is literally tens of thoushands of records that knock it into next week then whats the fuss.I was at the casino and even in its hey day [the record] was never better than average it would not get in my top 5000 never mind 500

Isnt the case that any scene needs a rallying call and this seems to be it for many people,I honestly also dont think it is a perfect northern soul record I would put MAC STATON , Jesse James,or THE TRANNELS in that category certainly not a record of this quality/

Finally perhaps the rarity adds to its myth but f--k me think of how many proper soul records you could get for the money spend on this slab of shit.

BAZ A

PS WHY DID YOU NOT PUT ON THE POLL DO YOU THINK THE RECORD IS SHITE?

Wel put Baz..stop with the Frank wilson already...nostalga for the masses who went nowhere....

[Guest]

It's a classic - an overplayed classic maybe - but a classic none the less.

Derek

[Koolkat]

I can remember exactly where I was stood in the Casino when this was first spun. I looked at my mates, they looked at me. We just stood there gawping at each other. "What the f*** is this?" we were all shouting at each other. Lots of shoulder shrugging and "f*** knows but its brilliant." The all place seemed to realise too. It got spun again a short while after and the place went mad. You couldnt get on the floor. People just dancing like they had known it for ages. That is a sign of a top record. Of course its a classic. Booted to soon, yes.Overplayed , yes. But if you were there at that first airing.... .......well youd never forget it. Never ever.

[Soulsmith]

I can remember exactly where I was stood in the Casino when this was first spun. I looked at my mates, they looked at me. We just stood there gawping at each other. "What the f*** is this?" we were all shouting at each other. Lots of shoulder shrugging and "f*** knows but its brilliant." The all place seemed to realise too. It got spun again a short while after and the place went mad. You couldnt get on the floor. People just dancing like they had known it for ages. That is a sign of a top record. Of course its a classic. Booted to soon, yes.Overplayed , yes. But if you were there at that first airing.... .......well youd never forget it. Never ever.

Good read, quality post.

[Guest mel brat]

This record defined a movement of youth culture...

Nonsense! It's just this kind of overblown rhetoric re. Frank Wilson that makes everyone tired of hearing about the record whatever it's merits. It defined nothing apart from Russ (and Wigan's) close relationship with Simon Soussan's nefarious activities. Something we knew all along!

[Soulsmith]

Nonsense! It's just this kind of overblown rhetoric re. Frank Wilson that makes everyone tired of hearing about the record whatever it's merits. It defined nothing apart from Russ (and Wigan's) close relationship with Simon Soussan's nefarious activities. Something we knew all along!

It doesn't prove anything about Russ's relationship with Soussan. Russ bought the tune from Les McCutcheon a well known surrey record dealer.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Soulsmith

[Modernsoulsucks]

It's a great record but then there are [luckily] thousands of great Northern records. That's why the scene continues.

To dismiss it as a "slab of shit", as Baz has, is I suggest a little less than objective and coloured by the baggage around it.

However Im willing to be persuaded that this particular Motown 45 is a piece of crap in comparison to other Motown 45s of the period if Baz can put forward a rational defence of his particular view.

ROD

[Pete Eccles]

It's a classic, no getting away from that, but thinking about the overplayed comments, yes it's been hammered, but in the last decade, at least round these parts, no more hammered than Ruby Andrews, Dells (run for cover) Moses Smith etc, (probably less) at even the most oldies of oldies nights, but it's a classic as in a classic example of a tune getting danced to and accepted by Joe Public and that will never do will it?

Pete E

[Baz Atkinson]

It's a great record but then there are [luckily] thousands of great Northern records. That's why the scene continues.

To dismiss it as a "slab of shit", as Baz has, is I suggest a little less than objective and coloured by the baggage around it.

However Im willing to be persuaded that this particular Motown 45 is a piece of crap in comparison to other Motown 45s of the period if Baz can put forward a rational defence of his particular view.

ROD

Im not gonna defend it My view but seem as though you asked Rod[and i do respect you] take the incredible cloud nine lp by the temps, Rod every track gives you good reason to cry particualry HEY GIRL and the incredible LOVE IS A HURTING THING,now that because their aint got that intro that makes you jump up and down like a mong,many would of sat down if these 2 were ever played out but for soul content you simply could not light a torch.AND SO ON AND SO FORTH absolutely hundreds of them comoing out of motown/soul ruffin ie Ive got a need for you or the incredible dont stop loving me.

Could name them all night but currently doing a review for Dave Moores mag[not on Frank wilson]the isleys absolute wailer Aint that real satisfaction is another Motown winner that has the ingreidiants to blow this onto another planet.Then Junior walker and so on and so forth.

Do i love you evokes such emotion why [its not even average motown]my view is because the casino,the intro,the romance around it,the rarity,the fact that it captured the imagination of the mainstream at a time in the scenes life when it was all on the up,goes to give it the so called kudoS it has.I am not a kudos man I am record collector that collects soul for its deepest meaning that is the intrinsic value of been given sheer emotion of content DO I LOVE YOU has very little soul content.

I REST MY CASE AT THE COURT OF SOUL -FRANK WILSON MENTIONED IN THE SAME RESPONSE AS DAVID RUFFIN SURELY NOT

PS THIS IS ONLY MY VIEW FOLKS DONT HIT ME WITH YOUR BAGGIES ,THE NEXT TIME I PLAY OUT LOL,ITS ONLY ONE VERY AVERAGE RECORD TO ME ON A LOGO THAT IS SIMPLY MAGNIFICENT.

[Guest Soultown andy]

Always thought it was a very good old fashioned dancer, not the best and certainly not the worst.Will always be critised by some sections of the scene just as it will always be loved by others do i want to hear it out, not realy but it wouldnt spoil my nite if i did.

[Baz Atkinson]

Wel put Baz..stop with the Frank wilson already...nostalga for the masses who went nowhere....

hELLO KITCH HOPE YOUR WELL MATE GIVE MY BEST REGARDS TO JULIA AND ILL SEE YOU 2 SOON.

BAZ A

Edited January 12, 2009 by baz atkinson

[Guest familytree]

Off topic I know, but on t'radio over the weekend I heard an old pop stomper - Paintbox "Get ready for love", and thought of Paul as it's his old copy which sits in my collection!

coolest guy... miss his presence.. all us girls fancied paul! so i may know you?... oops off topic.. sorry bicks! x

[Baz Atkinson]

Nonsense! It's just this kind of overblown rhetoric re. Frank Wilson that makes everyone tired of hearing about the record whatever it's merits. It defined nothing apart from Russ (and Wigan's) close relationship with Simon Soussan's nefarious activities. Something we knew all along!

I THINK IT DEFINE SOMETHING THE NORTHERN SCENE HAS GOT ALOT OF

MEDIOCRITY

[ajb]

for what its worth............................

''Its a classic example of quality northern soul. '' for sure, certainly right for the time

''A timeless master piece.'' strong words, but, still getting plays, when debatably better have fallen by the wayside, and been forgotten

''Its all hype'' definitely

''& little substance. Wasn't very good in the first place, then it got overplayed.'' i've heard a lot worse

alan

[Guest familytree]

Wel put Baz..stop with the Frank wilson already...nostalga for the masses who went nowhere....

Thats fighting talk! not the fact that you dont rate it but the presumption that those that do never went anywhere! thats just silly... each to their own on what makes a tune special to them, no need to discredit their clubbing history when you obviously are not privvy to such detail.

[Jumpinjoan]

PS THIS IS ONLY MY VIEW FOLKS DONT HIT ME WITH YOUR BAGGIES ,THE NEXT TIME I PLAY OUT LOL,ITS ONLY ONE VERY AVERAGE RECORD TO ME ON A LOGO THAT IS SIMPLY MAGNIFICENT.

Frank Wilson is absolute pants compared to some of the incredible tunes that came out of Motown

[Modernsoulsucks]

FRANK WILSON ANSWER ME THIS DO YOU THINK DO I LOVE YOU SHOULD OF BEEN SUNG BY DAVID RUFFIN INSTEAD?

Ha ah! So it's the vocal you object to, Baz? It does sound at times as if he's talking his way through it.

I don't think you're that sure yourself. It's either a "very average" or "below average" Motown song. I'd settle for your latter very average assessment which considering the quality of the Motown product at the time infers it is of a certain standard. Maybe not the best but not the worst. The fact that you mention the catchy intro would also suggest it's an average [of it's type] Motown sound in that Berry liked his releases to be instantly recognisible for radio play.

I think you've moved just a bit from "slab of shit".

I tend to disregard kudus myself. I don't like antelopes at all as I find they never do their fair share of the washing -up.

ROD

[Baz Atkinson]

FRANK WILSON ANSWER ME THIS DO YOU THINK DO I LOVE YOU SHOULD OF BEEN SUNG BY DAVID RUFFIN INSTEAD?

Ha ah! So it's the vocal you object to, Baz? It does sound at times as if he's talking his way through it.

I don't think you're that sure yourself. It's either a "very average" or "below average" Motown song. I'd settle for your latter very average assessment which considering the quality of the Motown product at the time infers it is of a certain standard. Maybe not the best but not the worst. The fact that you mention the catchy intro would also suggest it's an average [of it's type] Motown sound in that Berry liked his releases to be instantly recognisible for radio play.

I think you've moved just a bit from "slab of shit".

I tend to disregard kudus myself. I don't like antelopes at all as I find they never do their fair share of the washing -up.

ROD

Somedays i really do think its shite usually when Sunderland get beat or i HAVE A BAD DAY AT WORK,moving to betwixt very average and below average ,your probably right against its peers and the sheer product its average but back in the deepest recess of my mind I keep on thinking about that vocal and then compare it to a Ruffin and hey presto it becomes shite again

On the 50th aniversary of Motown average would be a fair call however I watched George Bush fairwell press conferance today and the critics are saying that was average so perhaps theres alittle hope for Frank yet.

[Little-stevie]

The voting system should have had a category that said... Blown away the first time you heard it as a kid but sick the back teeth of it now.... That would have been the most voted for i think..

If i hear it now i just think about folk hanging round that stall that sells keep the faith clocks and casino mugs..

[Guest]

Wel put Baz..stop with the Frank wilson already...nostalga for the masses who went nowhere....

Yep ! i have stayed in for 35 years

[Modernsoulsucks]

It gets clearer by the day!

You are suffering from Cognitive Blame Displacement Syndrome. It's not Frank that's shite, it's Sunderland.

ROD

[Guest Jahbuzzz]

I think what we need to do is start hating this masterpiece ebough that it get pushed deep deep underground for about 50 years when it can then be rediscovered again and people can feel again what it is like to uncover a true soul gem

[Guest soulboy]

fundamentaly its a great motown record may be its been hyped by some but whats wrong with that ,Iv never seen a empty dance floor when it gets played ,so im for it

[Jumpinjoan]

fundamentaly its a great motown record may be its been hyped by some but whats wrong with that ,Iv never seen a empty dance floor when it gets played ,so im for it

A full dance floor does not mean the record they are dancing to is a good one. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It's pants!

[Guest gordon russell]

big spin along with joey delorenzo and joe jama...for KITCH

[Guest soulboy]

A full dance floor does not mean the record they are dancing to is a good one. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It's pants!

You will have to quantify your reply .so if a dj plays a record and no one dances ,was that record 'great'.dont you think thats a bit patronizing to people who pay to go out for a good night of dancing,

I can only say what i see and places that play THAT record you can bet it fills the dance floor so tell me why?

Edited January 13, 2009 by soulboy

[Guest gordon russell]

You will have to quantify your reply .so if a dj plays a record and no one dances ,was that record 'great'.dont you think thats a bit patronizing to people who pay to go out for a good night of dancing,

I can only say what i see and places that play THAT record you can bet it fills the dance floor so tell me why?

think it's something to do with the 5%......not sure though?

[Jumpinjoan]

You will have to quantify your reply .so if a dj plays a record and no one dances ,was that record 'great'.dont you think thats a bit patronizing to people who pay to go out for a good night of dancing,

I can only say what i see and places that play THAT record you can bet it fills the dance floor so tell me why?

I wasn't being patronising mate. I was just saying that record is pants because I think it is pants.

It may well fill the dance floor at venues you frequent but it would not fill the dance floor at venues I frequent. In fact, I have already posted that I cannot remember the last time I heard the record out because the venues I frequent do not play pants.

Feel free to say I am being patronising if you wish. You are entitled to your opinion. As am I. And my opinion is Frank Wilson is pants.

[Ian Parker]

Have to say I have never been a fan.

Not a problem though cos I honestly can't remember the last time I heard this record.

Must be going to all the right venues

Monaco, 20th dec , i heard it too

[Jumpinjoan]

Monaco, 20th dec , i heard it too

Hence why I don't go to the Monaco

[Guest soulboy]

I wasn't being patronising mate. I was just saying that record is pants because I think it is pants.

It may well fill the dance floor at venues you frequent but it would not fill the dance floor at venues I frequent. In fact, I have already posted that I cannot remember the last time I heard the record out because the venues I frequent do not play pants.

Feel free to say I am being patronising if you wish. You are entitled to your opinion. As am I. And my opinion is Frank Wilson is pants.

so speaking in general what would you say made a record good or bad ,isnt that a matter of personal taste at the end of the day

[Jem Britttin]

A full dance floor does not mean the record they are dancing to is a good one. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It's pants!

But they must think its quite good ,or they would not be dancing to it .

[Pete Eccles]

But they must think its quite good ,or they would not be dancing to it .

Think it's a case of 400+ in a venue needing medical advice on how to remove the urge to dance to such tunes, coz it's pants

[Manfromsoul45s]

big spin along with joey delorenzo and joe jama...for KITCH

joey delorenzo?? Was'nt aware hell had frozen over..........

[jocko]

I would suggest your view of this as a classic depends on when you arrived on the scene, and dare I say it how long you stayed on the scene. I didn't start going properly till later half of 79 and can honestly say it was dead by then, dont remember it getting played much at all, and the quality of the stuff then and for the next 16 years meant it was hardly mentioned.

It was only once it sold for lots of money and the vast amount of returnees came along with their memories of it that it seemed to gain this status, therefore would suggest its been seen as a classic for a lot less time than it wasn't.

Rod you obviously don't fit any of the above so maybe I am just generalising too much, surprised to even here it being held as a Northern Motown classic, can off top of my head think of LP tracks by Gladys Knight, Spinners and Monitors that blow it out of the water, put your mind to it and surely their are hundreds better. Its not a bad record, but the fact he is not a very good singer surely stops it being a great one!

I will stick my neck out and say if This Old Heart Of Mine by Isleys was on Obscure label it would have been one of the top Northern tunes ever! Discuss.

PS Can't believe on Motown's 50th we haven't had a media thread dedicated to it, Im not around a lot at the moment to start but think this would be good idea for some point this week. Any volunteers?

[Spacehopper]

classic northern/motown and once i loved to dance to it...sadly its a victim of its own sucsess and i dont get that buzz anymore, ive heard it sooooo much its one that normally makes me walk off the floor....except for when kenny plays THE copy of it which i know is stupid !!....

at the weston scooter rally last summer , drifting between two venues i actually heard this 6 times !...boring

but then at hemsby scooter rally someone asked dean parish to sing it and he was reading the lyrics from a peice of paper with the WHOLE crowd singing a long...brilliant !

[Jumpinjoan]

so speaking in general what would you say made a record good or bad ,isnt that a matter of personal taste at the end of the day

Of course it's a matter of personal taste.

It's just that my personal taste is Frank Wilson is pants

[grant]

Good read, quality post.

me and my mate had the same feeling when i first heard (dont laugh i was only a kid lol) at wigan ...

Benzine

James Coit - remember being stood at front by the stage when this first came on with Tim Sullivan & Dave Holland - we loved it!

Fluffy Falana

7 Dwarfs

[Soulsmith]

(recently twice in 1 night by same sad dj)

Who was the DJ out of interest?

I heard Searling played in twice in 1 set off a CD at Blackpool.

[Guest soulboy]

Who was the DJ out of interest?

I heard Searling played in twice in 1 set off a CD at Blackpool.

I heard him dj off cd rs once a few years ago at wigan pier i think not frank wilson but banging modern not that it bothered me still a great night