Pinnacle Records

[Guest]

Has anyone else heard this ?What kind of consequences is this going to have on labels like Ace, Kent etc

Regards

Ian

[Ian Dewhirst]

Has anyone else heard this ?What kind of consequences is this going to have on labels like Ace, Kent etc

Regards

Ian

It's a disaster of the highest order. Pinnace distribute over 400 labels and following on from the Entertainment UK/Woolies crash last week, this will be the final nail in the coffin for many operations.

Physical sales (i.e. CD's and Vinyl) have been slipping disasterously over the last few years and have reputedly dropped a further 27% since this time last year. The majority of independent record shops have closed, pressing plants and mastering facilities have been dropping like ninepins and there's only HMV and Zavvi left on the high street (but for how long?).

Essentially the music business is going the same way as coal-mining - the older ones among us will still remember coal fires, coal bunkers and coal deliveries. Well, in years to come people will remember record shops in the same way - a quaint reminder of the 'old' days.

I'm not sure who distributes Ace and Kent - I'm pretty sure they distribute themselves, but I'm sure Ady or Tony will enlighten us. Hopefully they'll weather the storm ahead.

But it's bad, bad news as Pinnacle and Entertainment UK were two formally very solid foundation blocks of the UK Music biz and what is happening now is a bit like a pack of cards falling and will undoubtably cause many, many other companies to fold.

I think what will happen now, is that over the next couple of years you'll see the 4 majors - Universal, Sony, EMI and Warners downsize radically (or probably merge in the case of EMI and Warners) and the Independent side will become more like a massively downsized cottage industry.

The minute music got digitized is when the rot began IMO but it's difficult to hold back 'progress'.

Northern Soul won't be affected as such, so no worries on that score but my condolences go out to the thousands of people who will lose their livelihoods through all this.

Ian D

[Spacehopper]

bad news and very sad too...a couple of years back both hmv and virgin (or whatever they call themselves now) had loads of indie tunes on 7 with pic discs and covers etc and i thought maybe it would make a comeback or at least survive but in bristol they no longer stock vinyl...

have to use bands own websites/my space etc but 3.50 plus another for post ?.....even more will download til new vinyl will at last sadly be a thing of the past....

less manufacturing...less post....less jobs...and this is progress ?

[Prophonics 2029]

Is this all for the main stream of music, I can't see down loading MP3 killing off the soul scene.

Bet its not all doom and gloom there is still a market for music out their.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Prophonics 2029

[Ian Dewhirst]

bad news and very sad too...a couple of years back both hmv and virgin (or whatever they call themselves now) had loads of indie tunes on 7 with pic discs and covers etc and i thought maybe it would make a comeback or at least survive but in bristol they no longer stock vinyl...

have to use bands own websites/my space etc but 3.50 plus another for post ?.....even more will download til new vinyl will at last sadly be a thing of the past....

less manufacturing...less post....less jobs...and this is progress ?

Yep, I was in HMV Oxford St the other day and the 7" vinyl rack was full of major label pap, the back wall was full of 12" bootlegs and the back-cat CD's had thinned down considerably. Frankly it was crap compared to what it used to be like.

Earlier this year I tried to open some accounts with Entertainment UK in order to get some stuff into Zavvi, Morrisons and Asda but they couldn't handle a piss-up in a brewery. As it turns out, they did me a favour as I'd be screwed now if they had actually managed to open the accounts.

I also tried to open the same accounts with HMV but 'they weren't taking on any accounts until the new year' quote, so no wonder there's a lack of decent releases in their stores! If you speak to the HMV managers, they're as frustrated as I am. One of the guys at Oxford St told me he has to buy the releases he wants from indie shops or Rough Trade! What kind of advert is that for the UK's biggest music account? Pathetic.

Until these chains get their act together and start taking into account the fact that the business has changed forever, then the choice on the high street will be mediocre. So support your local indie shop (if you can find one) is the mantra!

The Pinnacle crash has meant that 400+ labels who rely on the busiest time of the year for music sales will now be struggling to get their stock back and many of them will undoubtably fold as a result. By the time it's all worked through, I reckon that somewhere in the region of 5K jobs will be gone as a result of this alone.

Ian D

[Dave Moore]

The minute music got digitized is when the rot began IMO but it's difficult to hold back 'progress'.

Ian D

The minute the industry chose to bury it's head in the sand over the progress that released the buyer from the clutches of the industry suits was the real nail in the coffin. It's a business, if you don't provide the consumer with what they want then they'll source it from elsewhere and you're gonna pay the price. Just because we have an emotional attachment to music that doesn't mean it can play within it's own rules and ignore the market forces. When Prince hit the first deal with a major newspaper, the writing was on the wall. If lay people like us could see it, why didn't the suits respond?

Always laff at the slagging of the Motown unreleased bootlegs people do. If certain people hadn't 'manufactured' the discs then we'd never hear 'em. Universal have no idea what the record collector wants, you've only to look at the rehash of the Motown 50th stuff to appreciate that. All re-releases of stuff that sold the first time round so obviously it MUST sell again. They deserve what they get, (which will be poor sales of badly researched/unimaginativley packaged Motown Yesteryear type retreads imo). You look at the stuff Kent and JoeBoy produce and it beggars belief that these 'majors' have the arrogance to churn out their stuff and expect the consumer to simply suck it up. The music 'collector' is a reliable animal. He is, by nature, a hoarder. But treat him like a fool at your peril. I feel that the serious collectors market was one aspect of the business that people basically ignored and once the big five lost interest in it a good innovative company that was prepared to invest time and effort could have maybe stood a chance. Ace/Kent and Joe Boy make a living, so it can be done. Just needed someone with a clear vision instead of someone in bi-focals.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Is this all for the main stream of music, I can't see down loading MP3 killing off the soul scene.

Bet its not all doom and gloom there is still a market for music out their.

The problem is not really with Northern Soul per se, as this scene exists in it's own bubble which is pretty unnaffected by the mainstream. The implications are more for small labels which release current Soul or re-issue labels which release back catalogue Soul. For instance Expansion and Soul Brother are two of the labels which will be massively affected by the Pinnacle crash and that's bad news for those of us who love their releases......

Just imagine that if The Group featuring Cecil Washington was released as a new release today, outside of a handful of places, there'd be nowhere to sell it!

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

The minute the industry chose to bury it's head in the sand over the progress that released the buyer from the clutches of the industry suits was the real nail in the coffin. It's a business, if you don't provide the consumer with what they want then they'll source it from elsewhere and you're gonna pay the price. Just because we have an emotional attachment to music that doesn't mean it can play within it's own rules and ignore the market forces. When Prince hit the first deal with a major newspaper, the writing was on the wall. If lay people like us could see it, why didn't the suits respond?

Always laff at the slagging of the Motown unreleased bootlegs people do. If certain people hadn't 'manufactured' the discs then we'd never hear 'em. Universal have no idea what the record collector wants, you've only to look at the rehash of the Motown 50th stuff to appreciate that. All re-releases of stuff that sold the first time round so obviously it MUST sell again. They deserve what they get, (which will be poor sales of badly researched/unimaginativley packaged Motown Yesteryear type retreads imo). You look at the stuff Kent and JoeBoy produce and it beggars belief that these 'majors' have the arrogance to churn out their stuff and expect the consumer to simply suck it up. The music 'collector' is a reliable animal. He is, by nature, a hoarder. But treat him like a fool at your peril. I feel that the serious collectors market was one aspect of the business that people basically ignored and once the big five lost interest in it a good innovative company that was prepared to invest time and effort could have maybe stood a chance. Ace/Kent and Joe Boy make a living, so it can be done. Just needed someone with a clear vision instead of someone in bi-focals.

Couldn't agree more Dave. Except I'm not sure if Joe Boy actually make a living from it and I'm pretty sure that many of the guys @ Ace/Kent are retained on a freelance/part-time basis these days.

One label I am impressed with is Numero. Frankly I don't know how they do it, but they appear to sell 10K each of beautifully packaged obscure releases but who they sell 'em to is anyone's guess. Maybe the guy who owns is independently wealthy or something? Anyway, they seem to be riding the storm pretty well.......

https://www.numerogroup.com/

Ian D

[Neil Rushton]

Couldn't agree more Dave. Except I'm not sure if Joe Boy actually make a living from it and I'm pretty sure that many of the guys @ Ace/Kent are retained on a freelance/part-time basis these days.

One label I am impressed with is Numero. Frankly I don't know how they do it, but they appear to sell 10K each of beautifully packaged obscure releases but who they sell 'em to is anyone's guess. Maybe the guy who owns is independently wealthy or something? Anyway, they seem to be riding the storm pretty well.......

https://www.numerogroup.com/

Ian D

No Joe Boy is a part time labour of love/hobby although we are planning to give it more of a go in 2009..

But for the last 6 years or so (and also before that on 2 occasions) I have been dealing with Pinnacle on my full time work and am sorry they are gone and that people I know and like are out of work. The problem is that the whole record business model has changed so radically.

[Ian Dewhirst]

No Joe Boy is a part time labour of love/hobby although we are planning to give it more of a go in 2009..

But for the last 6 years or so (and also before that on 2 occasions) I have been dealing with Pinnacle on my full time work and am sorry they are gone and that people I know and like are out of work. The problem is that the whole record business model has changed so radically.

You can say that again Neil. I noticed Endulge on the list of distributed labels, so presumably some of your stock is there.......?

Ian D

[Neil Rushton]

When Prince hit the first deal with a major newspaper, the writing was on the wall. If lay people like us could see it, why didn't the suits respond?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was involved in sorting out UB40's distribution deal with Pinnacle and, ironically Dave, Pinnacle were desperate for UB40 not to put their album out on a Mail On Sunday cover mount. But the massive amount of money on offer from the newsaper meant the deal went through. You can't blame the band and management for taking a good deal but the idea of a new album being given away free with a newspaper just devalues music.

.

One of my best mates runs a small size company distributing dance vinyl and his sales have shrunk this year.

[Neil Rushton]

You can say that again Neil. I noticed Endulge on the list of distributed labels, so presumably some of your stock is there.......?

Ian D

Yep......

[Prophonics 2029]

The problem is not really with Northern Soul per se, as this scene exists in it's own bubble which is pretty unnaffected by the mainstream. The implications are more for small labels which release current Soul or re-issue labels which release back catalogue Soul. For instance Expansion and Soul Brother are two of the labels which will be massively affected by the Pinnacle crash and that's bad news for those of us who love their releases......

Just imagine that if The Group featuring Cecil Washington was released as a new release today, outside of a handful of places, there'd be nowhere to sell it!

Ian D

Humm this was only a local hit no 40 in an R&B chart for the other side Light Of Darkness don't think it had a national distribution and a lot of the labels releases were just handed out at gigs and so many things have changed in the last 40 years.

But as you say these smaller labels like Expansion and SB will suffer greatley.

[Dewsburyborn]

One label I am impressed with is Numero. Frankly I don't know how they do it, but they appear to sell 10K each

Good morning Ian

Out of interest, where did you get this 10k number from ?

I was always thinking that something like this Pinnacle thing would happen - so for that reason Soulscape, and previously Grapevine, never allowed themselves to be put in the situation where a distributor had that amount of control over them. Because of that, the sales might not have been what they could have been - but it did mean I got paid for every single CD that I ever shipped.

Best

Garry

[Ian Dewhirst]

Good morning Ian

Out of interest, where did you get this 10k number from ?

I was always thinking that something like this Pinnacle thing would happen - so for that reason Soulscape, and previously Grapevine, never allowed themselves to be put in the situation where a distributor had that amount of control over them. Because of that, the sales might not have been what they could have been - but it did mean I got paid for every single CD that I ever shipped.

Best

Garry

Hi Garry,

I got the 10K number from a contact who deals with the label regularly. When I questioned it, I was told that Numero have phenomenal clout with the remaining indie shops and chains in the U.S. and that their catalogue is well-stocked everywhere via their deal with Ryko Distribution.

I kinda believe this, since I first became aware of them on a U.S. trip a couple of years ago and I saw their stuff in virtually every indie store I went in. In fact, I actually bought the "Cult Cargo: Belize City Boil Up" CD 'cos I couldn't believe they'd dug up so many great cover versions of Soul stuff from a tiny island like Belize LOL....

I'm sure the figure is mildy exaggerated for some of their releases but it's believable because I had their stuff thrust at me in at least 5 different stores on the one trip. They definitely seem to have some real clout @ indie retail in the U.S. and I guess by the time they've added website, export and campaign sales that figure might not be far off the mark over a couple of years of sales. Their packaging is just fantastic as well, so who knows?

And thank God that deal with Entertainment UK never proceeded! Although I was massively pissed-off at the time, that's nothing to how I'd feel now if we'd all have ended up being screwed. I had a similar situation when Fopp went down last year but luckily managed to get the £9K due to my clients some 9 days before they crashed, thank the lord!

Incidentally, I have a couple of decent private orders with immediate payment - I'll drop you an e-mail if that's OK........

Ian D

[Guest Paul]

There's an emergency meeting of AIM today regarding Pinnacle's administration (Pinnacle are AIM members as are many of their label clients) and the hope is to advise labels about protecting stocks, credit and finding new distributors.

Many Pinnacle clients will probably switch to PIAS but some may have problems if Pinnacle (and Windsong) can't be saved. It doesn't sound very good.

The biggest concern is for any labels who may be owed significant amounts which might not be paid. That could have a disastrous knock-on effect.

I don't know what portion of Pinnacle's business was music compared to computer games or DVDs but I know their music margins were very tight because dealer prices are so low.

Record companies and distributors (including Pinnacle) failed to stand up to supermarkets and large chains who have devalued music and forced many traditional music retailers out of business. That's something we may never recover from.

As for Zavvi, they are having problems because of the EUK siutation but l think their music business has been poor for a long time (they focus on DVDs, games and mobile phones) and they only have themselves to blame. It's as if they gave up trying to be a serious music retailer.

So this is more bad news but sometimes I think the industry is largely responsible for its own downfall.

Paul Mooney

[Guest Paul]

...I got the 10K number from a contact who deals with the label regularly. When I questioned it, I was told that Numero have phenomenal clout with the remaining indie shops and chains in the U.S. and that their catalogue is well-stocked everywhere via their deal with Ryko Distribution...

Ian D

Hello Ian,

It may be that some of Numero's other things sell 10,000 but I doubt many of their soul compilations do that well. In fact, I reckon the 10,000 will be copies shipped into the market place rather than sold.

I know a girl who runs an inde label in the US and they shipped 9,000 copies of an album (via Ryko) but more than 7,000 were returned unsold. The way they operate in the US is risky because, in effect, they are over pressing and also having to pay for wasted costs such as carriage (both ways) and storage of returned goods.

It just makes things worse.

Best regards,

Paul

[Ian Dewhirst]

There's an emergency meeting of AIM today regarding Pinnacle's administration (Pinnacle are AIM members as are many of their label clients) and the hope is to advise labels about protecting stocks, credit and finding new distributors.

Many Pinnacle clients will probably switch to PIAS but some may have problems if Pinnacle (and Windsong) can't be saved. It doesn't sound very good.

The biggest concern is for any labels who may be owed significant amounts which might not be paid. That could have a disastrous knock-on effect.

I don't know what portion of Pinnacle's business was music compared to computer games or DVDs but I know their music margins were very tight because dealer prices are so low.

Record companies and distributors (including Pinnacle) failed to stand up to supermarkets and large chains who have devalued music and forced many traditional music retailers out of business. That's something we may never recover from.

As for Zavvi, they are having problems because of the EUK siutation but l think their music business has been poor for a long time (they focus on DVDs, games and mobile phones) and they only have themselves to blame. It's as if they gave up trying to be a serious music retailer.

So this is more bad news but sometimes I think the industry is largely responsible for its own downfall.

Paul Mooney

Agreed on all counts Paul. I've actually never allowed my stuff into Woolies over the years as I believed that it would cheapen the product and I had endless shouting matches from Sales Managers who always look for volume whether it's good or bad for the business. Short-term objectives all the time have ruined so many businesses it's beyond belief.

I'm now in a position where if I do any work for the majors it HAS to be viable for the supermarkets otherwise they won't bother releasing it! Which is why I'm not very busy at the moment LOL. Also, over the last few years, I've noticed that the Sales depts have been virtually A&R'ing most of the back-cat releases which means that everything is dumbed-down for 'popular' taste.

It's a bit like the banks really. The madness and desperate scramble for growth at any cost that had inflicted so many walks of life is very responsible for the death of the music biz IMO.

Now is the very time when we need the indie shops desperately, but they've been destroyed by the all-consuming greed of the supermarkets. A smaller more manageable cottage industry would be a better bet for the future but I have a horrible feeling that the audience has moved on now.......

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hello Ian,

It may be that some of Numero's other things sell 10,000 but I doubt many of their soul compilations do that well. In fact, I reckon the 10,000 will be copies shipped into the market place rather than sold.

I know a girl who runs an inde label in the US and they shipped 9,000 copies of an album (via Ryko) but more than 7,000 were returned unsold. The way they operate in the US is risky because, in effect, they are over pressing and also having to pay for wasted costs such as carriage (both ways) and storage of returned goods.

It just makes things worse.

Best regards,

Paul

I treat all figures with a certain of scepticism these days Paul. Personally I don't know how Numero can consistantly release their stuff with such unbelievably good packaging UNLESS they're independently funded by a Soul Loving millionaire!

Any Soul loving millionaires over here by any chance?

Ian D

[Dave Moore]

When Prince hit the first deal with a major newspaper, the writing was on the wall. If lay people like us could see it, why didn't the suits respond?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was involved in sorting out UB40's distribution deal with Pinnacle and, ironically Dave, Pinnacle were desperate for UB40 not to put their album out on a Mail On Sunday cover mount. But the massive amount of money on offer from the newsaper meant the deal went through. You can't blame the band and management for taking a good deal but the idea of a new album being given away free with a newspaper just devalues music.

.

One of my best mates runs a small size company distributing dance vinyl and his sales have shrunk this year.

This is exactly what I mean about lack of response. There's no doubt about it that people were sluggish (and still are), when it comes to radical change, in any industry. Hence the likes of Rupert Murdoch, Bill Gates, Branson being so successful. As their competitors backslapped each other on their annual returns, these true entrepreneurs were looking at the game a number of stages further on. I know these examples are at the extreme but the prinicipal's the same. As you say Neil, can't blame the band, or their management. The formula is fine for the few artists that are in the position to be able to do that particular pitch, but it doesn't bode well for the newcomers eh?

The music is now completely devalued. The world has moved on and done it at pace. There's no changing that. With the digital/internet age also now firmly esconced there's no going back whatsoever. What the industry now needs is someone to grab it by the the throat and shake it up a little. Someone who can look forward, with a new business model, as opposed to to lamenting the good ole days.

It's happened in many different industries in the past and once the juggernaut of progress/change is let loose it's almost impossible to stop. Ask any cotton mill worker from Lancashire, miner from Derbyshire or porcelain painter from Stoke.

Bad day for the people who will have to find other employment and especially at this time of year.

[Guest Paul]

I treat all figures with a certain of scepticism these days Paul. Personally I don't know how Numero can consistantly release their stuff with such unbelievably good packaging UNLESS they're independently funded by a Soul Loving millionaire!

Any Soul loving millionaires over here by any chance?

Ian D

Not me, that's for sure. I'm happy and I enjoy my work but I'll never be rich. I think my Catholic upbringing has something to do with it. I'll ask my therapist if he can explain.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Paul

[Ian Dewhirst]

This is exactly what I mean about lack of response. There's no doubt about it that people were sluggish (and still are), when it comes to radical change, in any industry. Hence the likes of Rupert Murdoch, Bill Gates, Branson being so successful. As their competitors backslapped each other on their annual returns, these true entrepreneurs were looking at the game a number of stages further on. I know these examples are at the extreme but the prinicipal's the same. As you say Neil, can't blame the band, or their management. The formula is fine for the few artists that are in the position to be able to do that particular pitch, but it doesn't bode well for the newcomers eh?

The music is now completely devalued. The world has moved on and done it at pace. There's no changing that. With the digital/internet age also now firmly esconced there's no going back whatsoever. What the industry now needs is someone to grab it by the the throat and shake it up a little. Someone who can look forward, with a new business model, as opposed to to lamenting the good ole days.

It's happened in many different industries in the past and once the juggernaut of progress/change is let loose it's almost impossible to stop. Ask any cotton mill worker from Lancashire, miner from Derbyshire or porcelain painter from Stoke.

Bad day for the people who will have to find other employment and especially at this time of year.

Truer words were never spake Dave.

I was astonished at the arrogance and sheer ineptitude that I encountered with Entertainment UK just this last Summer. As I sipped a cappucino in their in-house coffee bar whilst trying to flog Soul albums to one of their buyers (who wanted 'em by the way), I couldn't help thinking how completely out of touch with reality they were. Same goes for most of the majors.

It's like they're in some kind of cosy fur-lined cocoon where reality never intrudes.

Not any more........

If some wealthy entrepreneur out there gets in touch, we could set up a brand new chain called "CD Warehouse", buy all the stock cheap from all the distributors which are going down, take over 40 city centre closed Woolies stores at a short-lease song and make a bundle very quickly LOL!

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Not me, that's for sure. I'm happy and I enjoy my work but I'll never be rich. I think my Catholic upbringing has something to do with it. I'll ask my therapist if he can explain.

Blast. No CD Warehouse for the North east then..............

Ian D

[Guest Paul]

Blast. No CD Warehouse for the North east then..............

Ian D

Not unless drug dealers and bank robbers decide to become venture capitalists.

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Blimey! Whatever next? I think I will sell my stuff through Ebay/my websites for the 45's and mp3 download sites for the rip off rate of 79 cents! That's if I can afford to pay the increase in the manufacturing/shipping/duty/vat on the vinyl etc.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Carl Dixon

[Guest Paul]

My comments about music are also relevant for books etc.

Since supermarkets became booksellers it seems that almost every new book is sold at half-price from day one. This may boost sales but at what real cost? And the damage done to traditional bookstores (who have much wider ranges and knowledgeable staff) is similar to what has happened to music stores.

If Tesco and Asda etc kill all the bookstores we'll all have to start reading the rubbish sold in supermarkets - autobiographies by celebrity TV chefs etc.

This obsession with selling high volumes at low prices is very short sighted.

[Dave Moore]

My comments about music are also relevant for books etc.

Since supermarkets became booksellers it seems that almost every new book is sold at half-price from day one. This may boost sales but at what real cost? And the damage done to traditional bookstores (who have much wider ranges and knowledgeable staff) is similar to what has happened to music stores.

If Tesco and Asda etc kill all the bookstores we'll all have to start reading the rubbish sold in supermarkets - autobiographies by celebrity TV chefs etc.

This obsession with selling high volumes at low prices is very short sighted.

Sorry Paul, I disagree. You're viewing it in isolation. You HAVE to look at the situation purely from a business perspective. It's the ONLY perspective that will do any good. It will enable the industry to a search out new ways of thinking. New ways of delivering it's products to the end user. The environment in which the industry finds itself is what it is. It won't change, therefore the industries that are effected by it HAVE TO. The alternative is to leave the industry as you WILL go under.

I notice in this thread that no one has offered up an alternative to the practices which have now proved to be ineffective. So, what are the alternatives? The old guard have gone. Where's the new breed? I'll guarantee someone will rise from these ashes, they always do. I used Branson as an example earlier. Do you think it was coincidence that he unloaded Virgin when he did? Long before the warning bells of many others were even twitching never mind ringing. The financial climate for what are termed "luxury gods" will only get colder as the months progress and many other industries are going to feel the sting. The strong will survive but the companies who have not prepared, (not just their balance sheets but their ethos and mindset), will perish. In a niche market that sting will be even more acute.

Better to sell 1000 units for $1.00 than 100 at $5.00. Devalues the commodity? Sure, but it also ensures that the next product along gets a shake of the stick too by ensuring the provider is still in business.

The simple yardstick is the consumer themselves.

I can sell 10 units of a quality product at 10.00 and leave myself feeling that I've done the product proud, maintained it's value and given the consumer a great deal. Job done.

Or

I can sell 100 units of the same product at 1.00 and leave the consumer feeling great that he's got a great deal. Job WELL done.

Bottom line is.....product is the same, consumer has the choice. It's HIS input that counts. If anyone has any doubt which one he'd prefer.....ask him, he's sat next to you...

[Guest Paul]

Hello Dave,

I do see things from a realistic point of view but I'm concerned that many current business models are good for the few but bad for the many. That's short-sighted in my opinion.

If, for example, book publishers relied upon supermarkets, their extremely narrow range would mean that only a tiny percentage of authors would ever have their work published.

Traditional booksellers offered diverse subjects which enabled many obscure (but important) works to be published. The same applies to music.

If we allow giants to completely dominate markets we will end up with discount bargains but very little choice. And I believe some people want choices and are prepared to pay for them.

It's also worth remembering that Virgin Records had heavy debts when Branson sold it. More than £300 million I think. That isn't successful in my opinion.

And if we continue to expect goods at supermarket prices we have to accept that our clothes will be made in third world sweatshops by children who are being exploited. What if they were our children?

These are facts we need to face.

How can any UK business compete with China when the "rules" are so different. It may sound old fashioned but even business has a duty to be responsible.

I'm all for progress but I'm suspicious of monoplies and I care about human rights.

Best regards,

Paul

[Ian Dewhirst]

Not unless drug dealers and bank robbers decide to become venture capitalists.

These are precisely the kind of venture capitalists I'm seeking Paul. They're the only ones with any dosh these days. Also, pimps and loan sharks considered as well....any of Thatcher's entrepreneurs in fact. I do however draw the line @ lawyers and accountants........gotta have some kind of standards.........

Ian D

[Guest Paul]

...I can sell 10 units of a quality product at 10.00 and leave myself feeling that I've done the product proud, maintained it's value and given the consumer a great deal. Job done.

Or

I can sell 100 units of the same product at 1.00 and leave the consumer feeling great that he's got a great deal. Job WELL done.

That's fine, Dave, if the product costs less than 1.00 to produce and if the people who manufactured it have been paid a living wage.

There are companies out there who are retailing products at less than cost price (crazy as it sounds) and in some cases they are exploiting vulnerable people.

That isn't being competitive, it's being immoral. Anything to make a quick buck, destroy the market and kill the competition. So one immoral company dominates while all others fail.

We really need to ask some difficult questions such as "what is China's long term plan?" And who will suffer?

I could compete with any UK company if I paid slave wages to children working in appalling conditions ...and if I had total disrespect for copyright laws etc.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Paul

[Sebastian]

Chris Anderson's book "The Long Tail - Why the Future of Business Is Selling Less of More" is essential reading when it comes to this subject. I really recommend it to anyone partaking in this discussion who haven't read it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Tail-Future-B...1610&sr=8-4

[Ian Dewhirst]

I notice in this thread that no one has offered up an alternative to the practices which have now proved to be ineffective. So, what are the alternatives? The old guard have gone. Where's the new breed? I'll guarantee someone will rise from these ashes, they always do. I used Branson as an example earlier. Do you think it was coincidence that he unloaded Virgin when he did? Long before the warning bells of many others were even twitching never mind ringing.

I think I'm right in saying that Branson sold the Virgin stores to an MBO, cleared the existing debts and funded 'em for 2 years providing they changed the name. His thinking was that music retail was dead, he wanted to get out but couldn't afford the Virgin brand to be tainted by any problems, hence the fact that the stores changed from Virgin to Zavvi.

The funding period is coming to close now and co-incidentally I'm noticing lots of the provincial Zavvi stores closing down without warning, so watch this space!

In terms of coming up with new solutions, the old system pretty much has to be dismantled completely as it bears no relation to reality anymore. That will take a massive sea change on the part of the major companies (who own 80% of the most popular repertoire), the rights organisations, the shops, the distributors, the manufacturers, the mastering companies, designers etc, etc.

There is a market out there but it's a much cheaper one than any of the existing power brokers want. I sold 26,000 cd's the other week @ 30p each and that was a struggle!

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Chris Anderson's book "The Long Tail - Why the Future of Business Is Selling Less of More" is essential reading when it comes to this subject. I really recommend it to anyone partaking in this discussion who haven't read it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Tail-Future-B...1610&sr=8-4

Yep, I keep hearing about this Sebastian. One for the Xmas list. Many thanks.

Ian D

[Guest Paul]

These are precisely the kind of venture capitalists I'm seeking Paul. They're the only ones with any dosh these days. Also, pimps and loan sharks considered as well....any of Thatcher's entrepreneurs in fact. I do however draw the line @ lawyers and accountants........gotta have some kind of standards.........

Ian D

Yes, it's one thing to admit being a pimp but I can't imagine anyone wanting to confess to being a lawyer or an accountant.

Yours truly,

Lionel Hutz

[Sebastian]

Yep, I keep hearing about this Sebastian. One for the Xmas list. Many thanks.

Ian D

It's superb.

Definitely go out and buy it if you don't get it as a christmas gift.

I'm looking forward to his forthcoming book "Free! Why $0.00 Is the Future of Business" as well.

[Guest Paul]

Chris Anderson's book "The Long Tail - Why the Future of Business Is Selling Less of More" is essential reading when it comes to this subject. I really recommend it to anyone partaking in this discussion who haven't read it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Tail-Future-B...1610&sr=8-4

Sounds interesting and I think it supports my views of things.

Is this book available in Tesco???

[Sebastian]

Sounds interesting and I think it supports my views of things.

Is this book available in Tesco???

It definitely doesn't support your view of things.

(but in this case, you probably CAN find this book in Tesco, it's one of the best selling non-fiction books in the past couple of years)

[Guest Paul]

It definitely doesn't support your view of things.

(but in this case, you probably CAN find this book in Tesco, it's one of the best selling non-fiction books in the past couple of years)

[/quote

Thanks Sebastian,

I'll read it as an optimistic pessimist ...or a pessimistic optimist?

P.S. You might be surprised that I agree with many of his views regarding consumables and services but not with music. Music isn't a disposable product, it's a creative art and it has to be paid for.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Paul

[Dave Moore]

I agree that the future is up in the air. That the rules have changed and that business as a whole, especially small business, is going to find it difficult to grow and and many will go to the wall. My point is that the product dealt with here has emotional attachments for many and sometimes it clouds the judgement and fuzzes a completely objective view.

I also agree that many large corporations have abandoned any pretence of morality (Blackwater and Halliburton come to mind imediately), but the bottom line is business has to compete and operate in the environment as it is and not as we'd like it to be.

The analogy of sweatshops is drowned out by the mass of UK consumers on any given Saturday who inundate Primark for their products. That's real life. Whether I agree with it makes no difference to the fact that it's there and the recent success of the likes of Aldi and Lidl European wide is testament to the fact that people would rather sweep morality under the carpet for a cheap pair of jeans.

I've had a few emails over the past 3 weeks asking me to drop the price of There's That Beat! magazine due to the exchange rate. I'd love to, but it's not feasible. The unit cost is more than the cover price! The more mags I sell, the more money I lose! Until of course I can attain the numbers that reduce the cost per unit. In a small niche market that will never happen. Therefore, it's a labor of love like Neil stated about Joe Boy. The thing is...I knew this when I started and so all is cool. If I was to try and turn it into a commercial venture it wouldn't be the same product. I would have to reduce costs so much that it would bear no relation to what we wanted. So...we take the hit every issue simply because we enjoy what we do. No rose tinted glasses, no stamping of feet for lack of support, no criticism of other similar products, no business plan that relies on external forces. Just a couple of guys who recognise that the music industry in general is now fragmenting itself so much that eventually the danger is that it's a series of 'fans' pumping out the good stuff at a meagre profit or loss whilst the big 5 and a handful of artists clean up.

Sad but that's how I see it.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Sounds interesting and I think it supports my views of things.

Is this book available in Tesco???

Yep. It's right next to Jade Goody's best-seller......

Ian D

[Guest Paul]

I agree that the future is up in the air. That the rules have changed and that business as a whole, especially small business, is going to find it difficult to grow and and many will go to the wall. My point is that the product dealt with here has emotional attachments for many and sometimes it clouds the judgement and fuzzes a completely objective view.

I also agree that many large corporations have abandoned any pretence of morality (Blackwater and Halliburton come to mind imediately), but the bottom line is business has to compete and operate in the environment as it is and not as we'd like it to be.

The analogy of sweatshops is drowned out by the mass of UK consumers on any given Saturday who inundate Primark for their products. That's real life. Whether I agree with it makes no difference to the fact that it's there and the recent success of the likes of Aldi and Lidl European wide is testament to the fact that people would rather sweep morality under the carpet for a cheap pair of jeans.

I've had a few emails over the past 3 weeks asking me to drop the price of There's That Beat! magazine due to the exchange rate. I'd love to, but it's not feasible. The unit cost is more than the cover price! The more mags I sell, the more money I lose! Until of course I can attain the numbers that reduce the cost per unit. In a small niche market that will never happen. Therefore, it's a labor of love like Neil stated about Joe Boy. The thing is...I knew this when I started and so all is cool. If I was to try and turn it into a commercial venture it wouldn't be the same product. I would have to reduce costs so much that it would bear no relation to what we wanted. So...we take the hit every issue simply because we enjoy what we do. No rose tinted glasses, no stamping of feet for lack of support, no criticism of other similar products, no business plan that relies on external forces. Just a couple of guys who recognise that the music industry in general is now fragmenting itself so much that eventually the danger is that it's a series of 'fans' pumping out the good stuff at a meagre profit or loss whilst the big 5 and a handful of artists clean up.

Sad but that's how I see it.

Hello Dave,

I admit that I buy from Tesco and ASDA because it's convenient and I like their prices, service and opening hours but I feel guilty sometimes that I'm contributing to some of the problems that concern me.

With music and books the supermarkets don't stock what interests me and I'm happy to support specialist retailers anyway, even if it means paying a little more.

But I can't afford to support everything I believe in. If I could, I'd probably stop buying Chinese goods because I have concerns about some of their methods and morals.

The sad part is that I often don't have a choice. We import so much from China.

Best regards,

[Anoraks Corner]

I spent 20 years in the music trade working full-time for various labels/distributors...loved every minute of it.

It saddens me greatly to think back to all the great indie stores I had the pleasure to sell to once upon a time...now all gone. I'm now genuinely shocked further to learn of the demise of Pinnacle/Windsong. Sad days for the UK music industry.

(Numero CDs are in all the specialist stores over her in Tokyo...in quantity...and they seem to sell through. More power to them, but 10,000 units sounds too high to me, even as a sell-in figure!)

[Dave Moore]

Hello Dave,

I admit that I buy from Tesco and ASDA because it's convenient and I like their prices, service and opening hours but I feel guilty sometimes that I'm contributing to some of the problems that concern me.

With music and books the supermarkets don't stock what interests me and I'm happy to support specialist retailers anyway, even if it means paying a little more.

But I can't afford to support everything I believe in. If I could, I'd probably stop buying Chinese goods because I have concerns about some of their methods and morals.

The sad part is that I often don't have a choice. We import so much from China.

Best regards,

I think we have a lot in common in these respects despite our differing outlooks Paul.

Problem for the specialist shops is that there aren't enough of us to warrant them staying in business. They can't carry the diversity of products. E.G. I went last Saturday to the last indie vinyl shop in Burnley. I went there to support the store owner who I've known for 30 years on and off. I asked him for some vinyl cleaning fluid and a vinyl duster. I could have bought these online much easier but like you I'd prefer to support the indie. His reply..." We don't stock this stuff anymore Dave, we do have the wipes if that's any use though". I've no doubt that the next time I pop in there there'll be an "Everything Must Go" sale sign in the window. Times this by the 1000 shops in the country still managing top trade and it's over. Same as the listening booths, same as the bargain bin LPs, same as the nice 4 track EPs with luverly covers, same as decimilisation, same as short pants at school, same as playing conkers.......we are the remnants of a previous age and in business if you can't break the mould when needed you're finished.

You're also, like me, fortunate to be in a position where you can actually afford to have a conscience. Many people haven't got that luxury and would scoff at the moral argument. The way of the world eh Mate? It's all 'fooked up' and needs a good revamp.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

What kind of consequences is this going to have on labels like Ace, Kent etc

...Hopefully not many 'consequences', is the answer today.

I really do feel for all of those whose livelihoods now hang by a thread, many of whom I call 'friend', and don't feel that this is any time to play the 'I'm All Right Jack' card. But we do all our own exporting, we don't rely exclusively - or even that heavily - on Pinnacle to distribute Ace's lines domestically, and they don't hold a vast quantity of Ace stock, as we have our own warehouse. Thus we are better placed to get over this hump than some will be.

Obviously Ace is, and will continue to be, looking for a new secondary UK distributor to supplement its own distribution network, but there are many of our reissue peers who will have had considerably more to worry about in the coming weeks than Ace has.

Thanks to all those who've shown concern, in any event.

Edited December 4, 2008 by TONY ROUNCE

[Guest Rob_Sevier]

I treat all figures with a certain of scepticism these days Paul. Personally I don't know how Numero can consistantly release their stuff with such unbelievably good packaging UNLESS they're independently funded by a Soul Loving millionaire!

Any Soul loving millionaires over here by any chance?

Ian D

Ian and Paul,

I would most certainly treat those figures with skepticism, even if they're coming from the source! Although we have a had a few soul titles top the 10k mark it would not be a regular achievement. Unfortunately, no soul-loving millionaires either. We scrape and save like everyone else to stay afloat. Our releases may be nicely packaged but we're wearing the same rags we wore when we started the label. If anything, I'm guessing that we do much better than can be gathered from our presence in the UK (which seems negligible) but we have a lot of support here in the U.S. Thanks to those over there who have lent us support and friendship: Ian Clarke, John Anderson, Malcolm Collins, Andy Dyson, Dave Ripolles, Tony, Ady, and Dean at Ace/Kent to name a few. Hopefully you'll be seeing more of us! This Pinnacle collapse is very scary for everyone, however.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian and Paul,

I would most certainly treat those figures with skepticism, even if they're coming from the source! Although we have a had a few soul titles top the 10k mark it would not be a regular achievement. Unfortunately, no soul-loving millionaires either. We scrape and save like everyone else to stay afloat. Our releases may be nicely packaged but we're wearing the same rags we wore when we started the label. If anything, I'm guessing that we do much better than can be gathered from our presence in the UK (which seems negligible) but we have a lot of support here in the U.S. Thanks to those over there who have lent us support and friendship: Ian Clarke, John Anderson, Malcolm Collins, Andy Dyson, Dave Ripolles, Tony, Ady, and Dean at Ace/Kent to name a few. Hopefully you'll be seeing more of us! This Pinnacle collapse is very scary for everyone, however.

Phew. Thank God for that. I thought someone over there had some kind of magic solution for the ills of the music biz LOL....

Glad to see you guys are still wearing rags and investing in great packaging rather then new threads. Keep up the good work!

By the way, when is someone going to get around to doing a 'Texas Soul' Oscar Perry comp? You'd sell a few over here if you did........

Ian D

[Dewsburyborn]

By the way, when is someone going to get around to doing a 'Texas Soul' Oscar Perry comp? You'd sell a few over here if you did........ Ian D

For it to be a comprehensive compilation of his work, the licensing for that would be such a challenge that it probably wouldn't be cost effective with the limited appeal it would have - and would be down to someone who didn't choose to observe the niceties of licensing .......

[John Benson]

Ian - do you mean something like that 2 Volume CD release which went under the title of "Lonesome Train, The best of Oscar Perry"?

Which came out over here in 1999 on Edsel and contained some of his unissued & released things from the Crazy Cajun era

I guess you really mean his Peri Tone releases etc....

Sounds good though doesn't it

[Guest]

Any Soul loving millionaires over here by any chance?

That's my greatest dream.

I ache to find one.

Damon must be a millionaire by now. I gave him a house to live in for two years RENT FREE, flew him LOADS OF TIMES first class to New York and registered him at the New Music Seminar, took him for endless expensive meals, lent him money, produced his first ever record for him, and now that he writes for Coronation Street and Britannia High, he won't even lend me two grand so I can pay the Christmas wages to my staff.

What fools we mortals be.

[Ian Dewhirst]

For it to be a comprehensive compilation of his work, the licensing for that would be such a challenge that it probably wouldn't be cost effective with the limited appeal it would have - and would be down to someone who didn't choose to observe the niceties of licensing .......

Yeah but a lot of the Eccentric Soul stuff seems to finding an audience with some pretty bizarre none-commercial material it seems. Also I presume that the Peri-Tone/Yellow Horizon stuff would be owned by his estate wouldn't it? And licensing costs necessarily need to fall as there's simply no way of recouping some of the ridiculous advances some people are looking for - the majors being the worst culprits.......

Ian D