"2 Known Copies"

[boba]

where do people get this stuff? like two known copies amongst the two collectors they know?

https://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Soul-Mod-R-B-45-L...1QQcmdZViewItem

I've had multiple copies of this as a stock copy and a white label promo (rarer), it's not super-common, but do people just like make this stuff up? I hate it when people try to quote the known copies of something, but it's even stupider when it's just a random record and not a known expensive record that has been flushed out of collections.

[George G]

where do people get this stuff? like two known copies amongst the two collectors they know?

https://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Soul-Mod-R-B-45-L...1QQcmdZViewItem

I've had multiple copies of this as a stock copy and a white label promo (rarer), it's not super-common, but do people just like make this stuff up? I hate it when people try to quote the known copies of something, but it's even stupider when it's just a random record and not a known expensive record that has been flushed out of collections.

Ha ha - Bob, if you've collected US 60s garage like I have for 25+ years, you'd know the 'only known copies' mantra has long warped into self parody, no matter on whose authority the claim is made. There's a whole website that tries to finger count such items. The original intent was for fun, but google jockeys have turned into a Ten Commandments. My favorite being - "I can find no mention of this on the Internet - it must be the only one in existence!" For some strange reason I find that the younger people seem to take this stuff more seriously, apparently lacking in life experience. Being in the collectible commodity business requires no IQ or sanity test.

- George

[Guest inspirations001]

where do people get this stuff? like two known copies amongst the two collectors they know?

https://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Soul-Mod-R-B-45-L...1QQcmdZViewItem

I've had multiple copies of this as a stock copy and a white label promo (rarer), it's not super-common, but do people just like make this stuff up? I hate it when people try to quote the known copies of something, but it's even stupider when it's just a random record and not a known expensive record that has been flushed out of collections.

also if there really were two known copies, would it be going for $6 with no reserve??? by the way i have a frank wilson for sale, starts at $3 with no reserve and only 3 known copies!

[Guest mel brat]

Ha ha - Bob, if you've collected US 60s garage like I have for 25+ years, you'd know the 'only known copies' mantra has long warped into self parody, no matter on whose authority the claim is made. There's a whole website that tries to finger count such items. The original intent was for fun, but google jockeys have turned into a Ten Commandments. My favorite being - "I can find no mention of this on the Internet - it must be the only one in existence!" For some strange reason I find that the younger people seem to take this stuff more seriously, apparently lacking in life experience. Being in the collectible commodity business requires no IQ or sanity test.

- George

So there's still hope on Frank Wilson then!

[Benji]

My favorite being - "I can find no mention of this on the Internet - it must be the only one in existence!"

- George

I know what you mean in this context. But if I search the internet for info about a certain record and I find little or no information at all, I think it's safe to assume that one is chasing a pretty rare/obscure record, isn't it?

[Guest]

also if there really were two known copies, would it be going for $6 with no reserve??? by the way i have a frank wilson for sale, starts at $3 with no reserve and only 3 known copies!

I have two issues for sale - $2 / NR .........

Malc Burton

[Weingarden]

f***! i thought i had the ONLY known copy! oh, well.

but i'll take those two at $2 each, please.

Edited November 21, 2008 by weingarden

[Guest]

f***! i thought i had the ONLY known copy! oh, well.

but i'll take those two at $2 each, please.

If you are going to take both copies , I will do the deal at $3 .......

Malc Burton

Edited November 21, 2008 by Malc Burton

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

But if I search the internet for info about a certain record and I find little or no information at all, I think it's safe to assume that one is chasing a pretty rare/obscure record, isn't it?

...Of course it's not. There are plenty of not especially valuable and not especially rare records, sitting just feet away from where I'm typing this, that have never once been mentioned on the internet, for that very reason.

Conversely there have been probably hundreds, maybe even thousands of mentions of "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)" on the net...

[Ernie Andrews]

as mentioned before - The term "Only ? known copies" is Irrelevant without providence to say so

I have an acetate that has providence of only 2 copies made as the tune was withdrawn and this is confirmed by the record company and was also confirmed by Jm when it was on his auction - So I can use the term "Only 2 Copies"

But how many other people have providence like that?

Its pure speculation most of the time and therefore should be treated with the contempt it derserves!

[Sebastian]

...Of course it's not. There are plenty of not especially valuable and not especially rare records, sitting just feet away from where I'm typing this, that have never once been mentioned on the internet, for that very reason.

I agree with Benji. I sell and buy a lot of records and research every one of them and it's incredibly rare the times I've come across something that doesn't throw up ANY search results. The folk-psych LP by Malc Sayer (out of Carnforth, Lancashire!) that I sold yesterday was one of those examples, I couldn't find ANYTHING ANYWHERE, but that doesn't happen a lot. Records not turning up as search results may not mean that they are RARE, but it more often than not will turn out that they are obscure.

[Guest stromberg]

...Of course it's not. There are plenty of not especially valuable and not especially rare records, sitting just feet away from where I'm typing this, that have never once been mentioned on the internet, for that very reason.

I agree with Benji. I sell and buy a lot of records and research every one of them and it's incredibly rare the times I've come across something that doesn't throw up ANY search results. The folk-psych LP by Malc Sayer (out of Carnforth, Lancashire!) that I sold yesterday was one of those examples, I couldn't find ANYTHING ANYWHERE, but that doesn't happen a lot. Records not turning up as search results may not mean that they are RARE, but it more often than not will turn out that they are obscure.

records that don't throw up any results at all are most likely pretty rare and obscure, I'd say too.

But I think it's just very -ahem- short-sighted when people draw the conclusion that this means that there are no other copies around.

Before I would state something like only x known copies, bla bla, I would ask every collector/dealer and his dog. In this case it somehow makes the seller look a bit of a plonker.

I asked on here at LAYB for a record by Cornell Williams, no replies yet and there is no info on the net at all, but I wouldn't say its the only known copy..

best,

Stefan

[Guest]

...Of course it's not. There are plenty of not especially valuable and not especially rare records, sitting just feet away from where I'm typing this, that have never once been mentioned on the internet, for that very reason.

I agree with Benji. I sell and buy a lot of records and research every one of them and it's incredibly rare the times I've come across something that doesn't throw up ANY search results. The folk-psych LP by Malc Sayer (out of Carnforth, Lancashire!) that I sold yesterday was one of those examples, I couldn't find ANYTHING ANYWHERE, but that doesn't happen a lot. Records not turning up as search results may not mean that they are RARE, but it more often than not will turn out that they are obscure.

Not too sure on that Sebastian....I've got a box of about 100 records sat by my desk that bring up either very few (and none of any use) search results or simply no results at all and I add to that box all the time. Some will turn out to be rare/obscure but plenty of them will turn out to be fairly common (but just not talked about). Of course the majority will turn out to be total rubbish .

[Sebastian]

Not too sure on that Sebastian....I've got a box of about 100 records sat by my desk that bring up either very few (and none of any use) search results or simply no results at all and I add to that box all the time. Some will turn out to be rare/obscure but plenty of them will turn out to be fairly common (but just not talked about). Of course the majority will turn out to be total rubbish .

I should probably have added that with "search result" I don't necessarily mean useful results (discussions/reviews/etc.), I mean ANY mention at all of that record - as an out-of-stock item, as part of a discography, on someones want list, a past sale on eBay, well... anything really.

Perhaps we just have different experiences about this.

[Spacehopper]

i heard a well respected dj say that at a nite last month and thought to myself how could he possibly say that !....it wasnt a great tune and could be sitting at the back of a lot of peoples boxes .....

i bought a chi-lettes tune last week off ebay and checked a few sites for a price guidline and it wasnt on any and through 5 pages of the artist on manships site hed only had 1 before described as their rarest release on brunswick....although not why i bought it and wasnt expensive....ive seen another 2 since !....so not that rare at all

[boba]

I should probably have added that with "search result" I don't necessarily mean useful results (discussions/reviews/etc.), I mean ANY mention at all of that record - as an out-of-stock item, as part of a discography, on someones want list, a past sale on eBay, well... anything really.

Perhaps we just have different experiences about this.

where or not the google thing is true, it doesn't indicate the known number of copies as "2".

The above record is obscure and hard to find, but there's more than 2 copies out there.

[Guest Matt Male]

I have to agree that the internet has not turned out to be the font of all knowledge we thought it might be. I was researching the Port label a few years back and tried again more recently. I can't find out a bloody thing apart from it was owned by Jerry Blaine who also ran Jubilee and Josie out of New York... and that is about it.

[Diggin' Dave]

Well, there's 2 types of records that are unknown, or as they say in 2008, 'ungoogleable'. The rubbish ones and the very obscure ones. The first type doesn't get talked about because they're (of course), rubbish. Records of the 2nd type don't show any results because they're too rare, but in most cases you can trust your ears to decide which category record x fits in.

Records of type 2 is what collecting these rare records is all about isn't it. I often find myself keeping these for myself although I'm broke/paid half a month's wage for it... But if there's only one known copy of the record ho knows when you'll find it again

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

I know what you mean in this context. But if I search the internet for info about a certain record and I find little or no information at all, I think it's safe to assume that one is chasing a pretty rare/obscure record, isn't it?

Not really, it just means nobody has posted any information about the record or label

Andy Mac (and no before anyone asks again, I'm not Andy Whitmore )

[Val (Chunky)]

Andy Mac (and no before anyone asks again, I'm not Andy Whitmore )

[Chalky]

all depends how the phrase is used. Obviously in respect to the listing it is a load of bollocks but if you talk about Kell Osborne on Highland as being a 2 "known" copy record then it's fully justified cause as far as I'm aware and anyone else for that matter there are just the two "known" copies. Doesn't mean there aren't more out there thats why the word "known" is used, just means no more discovered or known about amongst collecters and dealers. If you've been around records fopr 20 or 30 plus years then you do get to know these things.

[Tfk]

Not really, it just means nobody has posted any information about the record or label

Andy Mac (and no before anyone asks again, I'm not Andy Whitmore )

eh

tfk/andymac????

[Citizen P]

Always will remember Mr. Levine declaring

"Only copy in the country -Del Larks- Job Opening"

and my mate Kenny shouting back

"oh no it isn't- just got that in a Soul Pack"

Oh , how we laughed

ATB

Tony

(makes more sense now)

Edited November 21, 2008 by tonyp

[boba]

all depends how the phrase is used. Obviously in respect to the listing it is a load of bollocks but if you talk about Kell Osborne on Highland as being a 2 "known" copy record then it's fully justified cause as far as I'm aware and anyone else for that matter there are just the two "known" copies. Doesn't mean there aren't more out there thats why the word "known" is used, just means no more discovered or known about amongst collecters and dealers. If you've been around records fopr 20 or 30 plus years then you do get to know these things.

but that's exactly what I said in my email, i said that if it should be used (which I'm still not sure), it should only be used in the context of a rarity that has been well known by collectors for a long time where if people had had it it would have become public -- e.g. frank wilson. I still think the term is even silly in that context, as people live in much smaller worlds than they think, but at least it's ok if people acknowledge that their circle of collectors doesn't include everyone. I hate when records get quotes in terms of "known copies" on ebay, they're never Kell Osborne on Highland or Junior McCants but always some obscuro records (or even not-that-obscure records) that some people do have buried away. Quoting "known copies" shouldn't matter anyways, if the record is truly rare and truly good, that will determine the price, who buys a record trying to just get the 3rd copy?

[Chalky]

I think some of the sellers on ebay think all other buyers are clueless idiots Boba.

[Weingarden]

the main thing that bothers me about the "known copies" business is how condescending it is to the folks who may have--and KNOW they have--a copy but don't give a f*** about the "northern soul" scene.

[Ernie Andrews]

why does no-one reply to my post on this thread- Why because this term "Known" is absolute Bollocks- Known by who - The world and its dog-

We are dealing in Musical antiques and therefore any terms used must have written providence or it is sheer speculation!

The term "Hard" is another one - What does this mean- Difficult to find - May be difficult for some but not for others - What criteria was used to determine who looked harder than others.

These terms a sheer speculative bullshit! without written providence

remember "a verbal contract aint worth the paper its written on"

[Phild]

where or not the google thing is true, it doesn't indicate the known number of copies as "2".

The above record is obscure and hard to find, but there's more than 2 copies out there.

I've got 2 copies myself. It's quite good in an early R & B kinda way.

Anybody wanna buy one?

Phil

[boba]

why does no-one reply to my post on this thread- Why because this term "Known" is absolute Bollocks- Known by who - The world and its dog-

We are dealing in Musical antiques and therefore any terms used must have written providence or it is sheer speculation!

The term "Hard" is another one - What does this mean- Difficult to find - May be difficult for some but not for others - What criteria was used to determine who looked harder than others.

These terms a sheer speculative bullshit! without written providence

remember "a verbal contract aint worth the paper its written on"

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. The word is "provenance", not "providence" by the way.

[Ernie Andrews]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. The word is "provenance", not "providence" by the way.

Sorry Boba your right Provenance - What was I thinking!

[Benji]

The term "xx known copies" is a relic from the pre-Internet days and has no real informative value for me now.

It used to be some sort of evidence for me back then (pre-Internet, i.e. mid 90s?) when it refered to the UK Northern Soul scene only, as the collectors scene was rather small and well connected. So if you had a rare record you asked around and if you hadn't found another copy in say 2-3 month you could say you had "the only known copy in the UK", wasn't it like this?

[Chalky]

The term "xx known copies" is a relic from the pre-Internet days and has no real informative value for me now.

It used to be some sort of evidence for me back then (pre-Internet, i.e. mid 90s?) when it refered to the UK Northern Soul scene only, as the collectors scene was rather small and well connected. So if you had a rare record you asked around and if you hadn't found another copy in say 2-3 month you could say you had "the only known copy in the UK", wasn't it like this?

I would have thought with the internet you had a better understanding of what was out there now as more people on a worldwide scale involved. I mean when a rare record comes on the market every man and their dog knows about it.