Number Of People Into Northern Now And Then

[Guest]

Has anyone any thoughts as to the number of people "into" Northern now and in the past. Recent publicity says it's bigger than ever. I don't believe that and would guess the paek to be around 1977. Original Grapevine singles at that time mostly sold around 5,000 copies with some selling many more. My own guess would be in that year there would be more than 10,000 people but less than 100,000 actively involved. I would say that today it's more than 1,000 but less than 10,000.

If people who promoted in the 70's or now could contribute based on memberships (ignoring Wigan's 100,000 plus) it would be an interesting thing to try and nail down.

[Peter99]

Has anyone any thoughts as to the number of people "into" Northern now and in the past. Recent publicity says it's bigger than ever. I don't believe that and would guess the paek to be around 1977. Original Grapevine singles at that time mostly sold around 5,000 copies with some selling many more. My own guess would be in that year there would be more than 10,000 people but less than 100,000 actively involved. I would say that today it's more than 1,000 but less than 10,000.

If people who promoted in the 70's or now could contribute based on memberships (ignoring Wigan's 100,000 plus) it would be an interesting thing to try and nail down.

There was quite a few then and there are still quite a few now.

[Guest EType69]

There was quite a few then and there are still quite a few now.

And quite a few less in between.

[wolfie66]

I've actually done some research into this myself stowtime and can categorically state that that there are 15197 into "northern soul" now - this number is, of course, far short of the 48million that went to Wigan Casino alone in the 70's - not bad for an'underground' scene, but still well short of the 56 million that squeezed into the 100 club for the Pistols first gig.

And that's a fact that is

[Steve G]

Very hard to gauge this. More of us seem to have been into it in the 70s - every town boasted it's soulies in bags and leather coats etc. But an awful lot of civilians, passing trade and divs trying something new in the crowd too -same with Wigan 100,000 members - but I bet lots only went the once - sightseers and tourists amongst the scene faithful.

Nowdays a lot of people don't go to venues but might buy the odd CD now and again. You find NS in all sorts of places where you wouldn't have found it in the 70s (Homebase, HSBC Bank etc.)

We're not really comparing apples with apples. So I don't think there is an answer.

[Guest Gogs]

back then there were fewer venues so people did not have as many options as to where to go, Judging just by the number of venues that are managing to stay open these day's i would guess that there are more people today. but i could be wrong (again).

[Guest]

Has anyone any thoughts as to the number of people "into" Northern now and in the past. Recent publicity says it's bigger than ever. I don't believe that and would guess the paek to be around 1977. Original Grapevine singles at that time mostly sold around 5,000 copies with some selling many more. My own guess would be in that year there would be more than 10,000 people but less than 100,000 actively involved. I would say that today it's more than 1,000 but less than 10,000.

If people who promoted in the 70's or now could contribute based on memberships (ignoring Wigan's 100,000 plus) it would be an interesting thing to try and nail down.

I WAS NOT THERE THEN But regular at the 100 club and cleethorpes early 90s !!!!

It was the 60s music that I got into on my own ! I was too young for Wigan and Stafford !

Dont worry about it ! Feckers like me just find out about it and get into what we really like !

There will always be people who dig a little deeper, and who are more intrested in music than just Pop IMO !

Edited October 17, 2008 by mossy

[vaultofsouler]

Has anyone any thoughts as to the number of people "into" Northern now and in the past. Recent publicity says it's bigger than ever. I don't believe that and would guess the paek to be around 1977. Original Grapevine singles at that time mostly sold around 5,000 copies with some selling many more. My own guess would be in that year there would be more than 10,000 people but less than 100,000 actively involved. I would say that today it's more than 1,000 but less than 10,000.

If people who promoted in the 70's or now could contribute based on memberships (ignoring Wigan's 100,000 plus) it would be an interesting thing to try and nail down.

I would agree there was probably more "into" it at it's peak in the 70's as far as comparing the decades for being "into" it....

But I would say there were more people "on" the scene around the start of Y2K as we had all the generations at once, i.e. the "original" late 60's/70's crowd, the late 70's/80's folk, the returnees of both those periods, plus those getting "into" throughout the 90's upto now.... slowly receeding again now though due to folks ages, lathargy, the returnees having had "their refill" and disappearing again, plus, dare I say, boredom from actually going out and living it....

Just how I see it but difficult to call really, I suspect....

Edited October 17, 2008 by vaultofsouler

[Guest]

I like 60s NY latin - there is no latin scene in north wales ! number of fans I know is 4

I like 60s funk - there is no funk scene in north wales - number of fans I know is 2

I like 60s soul - "come on you old buggers" - number of fans I know is about 60

I like 60s SKA - We get a few dancing ! - number of fans I know is 10

Edited October 17, 2008 by mossy

[Guest]

Very hard to gauge this. More of us seem to have been into it in the 70s - every town boasted it's soulies in bags and leather coats etc. But an awful lot of civilians, passing trade and divs trying something new in the crowd too -same with Wigan 100,000 members - but I bet lots only went the once - sightseers and tourists amongst the scene faithful.

Nowdays a lot of people don't go to venues but might buy the odd CD now and again. You find NS in all sorts of places where you wouldn't have found it in the 70s (Homebase, HSBC Bank etc.)

We're not really comparing apples with apples. So I don't think there is an answer.

How many soulies were there / are there ? attempting to get an answer to this question . can be likened to the cleanup by the allied forces of enemy troops in the Pacific , after the surrender at the end of WWII .........

Just when they assumed they had captured everyone , they would discover a pocket of resistance on a remote island , unwilling to give in , hellbent on fighting to the last man .......

We will never know how many of " us " that are " out there " ........

Malc Burton

Edited October 17, 2008 by Malc Burton

[Guest]

I've actually done some research into this myself stowtime and can categorically state that that there are 15197 into "northern soul" now - this number is, of course, far short of the 48million that went to Wigan Casino alone in the 70's - not bad for an'underground' scene, but still well short of the 56 million that squeezed into the 100 club for the Pistols first gig.

And that's a fact that is

I AGREE xxx

[Guest]

I AGREE xxx

I hope you are not up making Harry's breakfast at this time , Diane .........

Malc Burton

Edited October 17, 2008 by Malc Burton

[Guest gordon russell]

3,496

[Guest gordon russell]

loads into northern .....not that many into soul

[Spacehopper]

interesting but impossible i think....yes in the 70s grapevine may have sold 5000 copies of some tunes but how many records and discs are sold today do you think ?....every where from tesco to ebay,soul source and dealers such as manshhip,brady,chapman etc etc...and thats without those who download !!

wigan may have had massive crowds very rarely seen now but as someone said shit loads more venues and gigs now its all more local....just like scooter rallies,back in the 80s there was probably an average of 5000 on almost every rally...even scottish rallies got a couple of thousand... today not even half that but there are rallies every week all through the year not just 9 nationals through the summer....

[Madmandy]

I have to say that I "know" ( term used loosely) a lot more folks this time around I think its a lot more social today

But as to numbers I cant get the 48 million quoted by Happyhammer are they counting evertime a person goes thru the doors that person could have gone to the venue eg 300 times therefore same person classed as 300 different people

Anyone get my drift??

I lost myself for a moment LOL

Mand

Edited October 17, 2008 by Madmandy

[Guest Black Gold of the Sun]

loads into northern .....not that many into soul

Yeh Terry and most of ,em on here

[Jez Jones]

loads into northern .....not that many into soul

and possibly even less into RnB, latin, funk y2k etc

[Ste Henderson]

3,496

Yes and they are all after the records I want

Seriously though how many are actually buying vinyl? hundreds, thousands?

Just a thought..

Steve

[Stubbsy]

How many soulies were there / are there ? attempting to get an answer to this question . can be likened to the cleanup by the allied forces of enemy troops in the Pacific , after the surrender at the end of WWII .........

Just when they assumed they had capyured everyone , they would discover a pocket of resistance on a remote island , unwilling to give in , hellbent on fighting to the last man .......

We will never know how many of " us " that are " out there " ........

Malc Burton

That's brilliant Malc

[Guest in town Mikey]

We never should have alerted the sceptic tanks. Now the cats out of the bag, I'm told if you have a British accent, you cant but a record in the States anymore, without involving Interpol.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Yes and they are all after the records I want

Seriously though how many are actually buying vinyl? hundreds, thousands?

Just a thought..

Steve

I wonder about that too especially when you see the number of bids 45s attract on Ebay. Hardly any really if you consider how many fans are purportedly out there.

ROD

[Spacehopper]

would be intesting to know how many tunes dont sell on e bay cos bids arent anything to go by really as most dont bid till the last minute...

there may have been more into it mid 70s but depends on what you mean by 'into' it....how many of those who bought grapevine etc after watching footsie on top of the pops were wearing bags until 77 then wore safety pins till 79 then wore loafers until 82 then wore f****** lipstick and danced to soft cell etc etc...

[Guest]

would be intesting to know how many tunes dont sell on e bay cos bids arent anything to go by really as most dont bid till the last minute...

there may have been more into it mid 70s but depends on what you mean by 'into' it....how many of those who bought grapevine etc after watching footsie on top of the pops were wearing bags until 77 then wore safety pins till 79 then wore loafers until 82 then wore f****** lipstick and danced to soft cell etc etc...

"into it" I define as attending Soul nights/Nighters/Dayers on a regular basis and/or spending significant amounts on records.

I think far more who were into Northern in the 70's moved on to Jazz/Funk and contemporary soul music (as I did) rather than Punk or New Romantic. Everyone I knew did the same or stayed true to Northern alone.

[Soulacola]

how many people are into the scene is different to how many like northern soul along with other music and own a few soul cds,but still have a real passion to actively listen to the music. loads of London night clubs in Shoreditch, old street,camden and Brixton will play northern soul along side funk and hiphop on any given saturday and on vinyl, the last time we were at the Dogstar in Brixton they had a dj "who used to work for acid jazz" playing good northern on vinyl,then we left abnd went accross the road and they were wierdly playing "if i could only be sure" by nolan porter on a bootleg 7".I went to a Northern soul nighter in Morcone in Tuscany in April and that was packed with 7 djs!!!all on vinyl!! are you adding these people up or is it just people who collect vinyl and dont like break beats,garage and drums and bass aswell?

[Guest]

how many people are into the scene is different to how many like northern soul along with other music and own a few soul cds,but still have a real passion to actively listen to the music. loads of London night clubs in Shoreditch, old street,camden and Brixton will play northern soul along side funk and hiphop on any given saturday and on vinyl, the last time we were at the Dogstar in Brixton they had a dj "who used to work for acid jazz" playing good northern on vinyl,then we left abnd went accross the road and they were wierdly playing "if i could only be sure" by nolan porter on a bootleg 7".I went to a Northern soul nighter in Morcone in Tuscany in April and that was packed with 7 djs!!!all on vinyl!! are you adding these people up or is it just people who collect vinyl and dont like break beats,garage and drums and bass aswell?

Good question !

I think I define it as having more than a passing interest in Northern but not to the exclusion of everything else. I buy shed loads of CDs all Soul/Black music of which only the minority are Northern but I still count myself as being into Northern.

When I asked the question I was hopeful that people involved on the business side of the scene eg Kev Roberts or Neil Rushton among many others who are members here might have given an opinion.

For example the number of Wigan memberships is often quoted as 100,000 + but I don't believe anywhere that number attended even once, having a membership was just a fashion thing. On the other hand you couldn't attend a Ritz all dayer without a HESC membership. I would thing that everyone holding a HESC membership would have attended the events, same appys to Torch or Wheel memberships and I would think 6ts.

[Spacehopper]

how many are on THIS site for a start...ok may not all be active but then again i probably know more people into northern who arent on here than are....

would be interesting if all those who posted a gig on here on one particular night counted as their people came in then posted the total on a monday ,we could see how many were out on any one night even though this obviously wouldnt be all the gigs it would stop us bickering over the same old subjects

[Guest Beeks]

how many people are into the scene is different to how many like northern soul along with other music and own a few soul cds,but still have a real passion to actively listen to the music. loads of London night clubs in Shoreditch, old street,camden and Brixton will play northern soul along side funk and hiphop on any given saturday and on vinyl, the last time we were at the Dogstar in Brixton they had a dj "who used to work for acid jazz" playing good northern on vinyl,then we left abnd went accross the road and they were wierdly playing "if i could only be sure" by nolan porter on a bootleg 7".I went to a Northern soul nighter in Morcone in Tuscany in April and that was packed with 7 djs!!!all on vinyl!! are you adding these people up or is it just people who collect vinyl and dont like break beats,garage and drums and bass aswell?

I agree...I came out of the sort of background you are talking about...and a lot of my DJ friends are exactly as you say...they have a small knowledge of northern and play the odd record in eclectic sets.

Bearing that in mind...If you included these into the equation I think you would find that adds a few thousand to the total

Edited October 17, 2008 by Beeks

[Guest]

how many are on THIS site for a start...ok may not all be active but then again i probably know more people into northern who arent on here than are....

would be interesting if all those who posted a gig on here on one particular night counted as their people came in then posted the total on a monday ,we could see how many were out on any one night even though this obviously wouldnt be all the gigs it would stop us bickering over the same old subjects

I love it - A Northern Soul census !

We could also have a thread for those who didn;t go out to post to. Genius !

[wolfie66]

I do also think there's a generation 'gap' here too. All 'youngsters' - i.e. under 30's - I know would say they are into, or like, northern soul, some even go to the odd night, but they all have such eclectic taste these days they would never consider themselves a pure 'soulie'. Right up to the late 90's you could probably spot different musical sub-cultures out & about through clothes etc, here in Newbury, especially in thwe 80's you'd walk down the street past the usual Mods, Rockers, Bikers, Scooter Boys, Rockabillys, Psychobillys, Boneheads, Suedeheads, Hippys, Dog men, Punks, Soulies ........etc? Now everyone not only dresses the same, but picks their sounds from a massively eclectric mix that would probably include music from all of the above sub-cultures. I think this is why youngsters aren't bothering so much with the all/nighter scene, who wants to go to limit their entertainment to boring old 60's/modern soul (remember I'm playing Devil's advocate here before the pick handles come out ) when you instead go to a Badaboom night night that plays tunes from across the board. I listen to mixes on mates laptops or phones (? f*ckin' progress!) and they're all doing a Mr Scruff now.

Soul has, like everything else, been commodified, and everyone dips in & takes a little bit from here and there, so probably the best signifier is those that go to a dedicated night - regularly or not.

There probably is more people with a greater knowledge of 'real' soul nowadays. whether that makes them osulies or not?

Sorry, I'll stop confusing things now, Lasagne time!

[Modernsoulsucks]

Well I have a 22 year old son,a 21 year old stepdaughter, a 22 year old stepson and 4 nieces and nephews all around mid-20's. Also met many of their friends. Despite any proximity to the music from the more immediate members of my family I can categorically state that NONE are into NS or show any interest whatsover. The only eclectic trait I can discern is that they're equally at home listening to hip-hop as a white guitar band as long as it's in the Charts or fashionable. Probably nearest any of them come to it is that Foundations 45 on Pye [forgot title] which appears to be very very popular.

A couple of tunes on an I-pod or bit of a mix at some student night in Manchester does not make a NS fan. Nor does force-feeding it to your kids.

ROD

[wolfie66]

Err - that's sort of what I was saying wasn't it? That they're all into their soul but would never consider themselves soulies? As for those only into chart music, well I don't even consider them music fans - no interest in anything specific, no hunting out of something you like, it's just background noise.

The real point I was making was that the days of kids restricting themsleves to one genre/sub-culture are long gone.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Err - that's sort of what I was saying wasn't it? That they're all into their soul but would never consider themselves soulies? As for those only into chart music, well I don't even consider them music fans - no interest in anything specific, no hunting out of something you like, it's just background noise.

The real point I was making was that the days of kids restricting themsleves to one genre/sub-culture are long gone.

Er... I guess you were saying that but "into" seems the wrong word. A casual acquaintance with current Black Music I'd grant you. 60's and 70's NS I wouldn't have said so, and I thought that was what we were talking about.

As for other sub-cultures if we're talking punk,new romantic or whatever it's just all crap pop music to me.

Think my stepdaughter mentione "Emo" quite a bit which I believe is a current "thing". Apart from the fact that I find it unhealthy that a girl of her age should show any interest at all in Rod Hull the music is all easily available,interchangeable pop rubbish.

Bottom line. No kids today are NOT into NS and they're NOT coming to save us, not that we need f**king saving in the first place.

ROD

[Guest]

To be honest I think that the popularity of Northern has held up surprisingly well over the years. Surprising well, means that different styles of music come and go (because it really wasn't very good anyway) but the sheer quality of Northern music will never die.

We wont be here in a 100 years time, but i'd bet that someone, somewhere on a saturday night will be spinning northern tunes to an audience!

[BVS]

If I were asked if I was into 'Northern' I would say no, although I got into the soul scene in 1966 and still participate.

My reason for saying this is that much of the music and the scene associated with what I regard as the 'Northern' scene is not really my cup of tea. That is the 70s era of stomping music (much of which sounds exactly the same to me if you ignore the lyrics) and the associated attire. Most people naturally think that their generation or 'scene' is the best and I'm no different, however, there's no escaping the fact that most of the best music on the soul scene, surfaced or originated in the 60s.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Northern Soul, the fashions or the people who were part of it then and now, it's just not my scene . I try to be selective about where I go to ensure that a venue's music policy is mainly 60s soul, RnB and Motown, in an attempt to avoid the later 'Northern Soul' stuff that I don't much care for.

This brings me back to the original issue about how many people are into 'Northern'. I know there are many more soulies out there who share my views and would not consider themselves into 'Northern' and therefore these people would be excluded from the count, which some may think is a good thing! However, I would like to think that you want to establish the trend in people who are into soul music generally, now compared with then.

For what it's worth, I believe there are many more people involved now because in the 60s and early 70s, the soul scene operated very much 'underground' but in recent years, it has received much more exposure and probably therefore, drawn more people in.

[Guest]

If I were asked if I was into 'Northern' I would say no, although I got into the soul scene in 1966 and still participate.

My reason for saying this is that much of the music and the scene associated with what I regard as the 'Northern' scene is not really my cup of tea. That is the 70s era of stomping music (much of which sounds exactly the same to me if you ignore the lyrics) and the associated attire. Most people naturally think that their generation or 'scene' is the best and I'm no different, however, there's no escaping the fact that most of the best music on the soul scene, surfaced or originated in the 60s.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Northern Soul, the fashions or the people who were part of it then and now, it's just not my scene . I try to be selective about where I go to ensure that a venue's music policy is mainly 60s soul, RnB and Motown, in an attempt to avoid the later 'Northern Soul' stuff that I don't much care for.

This brings me back to the original issue about how many people are into 'Northern'. I know there are many more soulies out there who share my views and would not consider themselves into 'Northern' and therefore these people would be excluded from the count, which some may think is a good thing! However, I would like to think that you want to establish the trend in people who are into soul music generally, now compared with then.

For what it's worth, I believe there are many more people involved now because in the 60s and early 70s, the soul scene operated very much 'underground' but in recent years, it has received much more exposure and probably therefore, drawn more people in.

I think the opposite

In the 60s, 70s. and 80s black pop musiv was soul music, in the 90's bpm was RnB such as Mary J. BPM this century tends to be Hip Hop and Dance which are not soulful and the true Soul artists sell far frewer copies eg Eric Benet and Lelah Hathaway don't trouble the UK pop charts. I think therefore there are far less loul fans now than thirty years ago.

[Chris L]

back then there were fewer venues so people did not have as many options as to where to go,

You know that's kinda not true. Whilst circa 1972 there were about 6 largish venues, NS was played "de rigeur" up norf, it was soul or rock/pop in all the large cities. I met some Brummies and visited, guessing around 1971 went down their local pub, right big place, they had a DJ playing Major Lance and others. At that time in London a Major Lance was something a cavalry officer carried about

Not sure that the figure of 56 million at the Sex Pistols gig (100 Club) is strictly correct, as their spikey hairdoes tended to inflate the body count...........

[macca]

One thing that is true, the advent of Internet has meant that there are

loads more people chasing the sounds today.

I know of Spanish people that have undertaken record finding trips

to the States. Same goes for the Germans, Scandos, Italians & French.

It's no longer the preserve of eccentric brits. :-)

Edited October 18, 2008 by macca

[Soulacola]

One thing that is true, the advent of Internet has meant that there are

loads more people chasing the sounds today.

I know of Spanish people that have undertaken record finding trips

to the States. Same goes for the Germans, Scandos, Italians & French.

It's no longer the preserve of eccentric brits. :-)

well, this saturday the first drink of the night was at the Sheaf house pub in Sheffield , next to the Sheffield united (hallowed) ground and there were two blokes djing Northern soul on cds to a small crowd but it was good dancing stuff,no advertising or forum promotion but all the same a little niche night that pubs put on to get a few bodies in with a couple of dozen punters drinking bitter and eating pork scratchings. proper northern pub, proper northern music (although cd), proper passion for the sounds and definately a pattern you could find anywhere in Rotherham, Rochdale, Blackburn or whereever, Northern soul is the possession of the working Northern man/woman and has only become elitist because there are too few and too expensive record shops now to accomodate the average bloke in the street - so he gets his northern soul in Tescos or a shopping centre, i still beleive Soul music is extremely popular with people who need something uplifting after a 40 hour week at a forktruck factory. Stuff £100 records.You dont buy a medal.A soulie is a man who's soul is lifted by sweet music and feels the need to dance and forget the grind?

[Guest]

About 5 or 7 at a push,all the rest are into £ signs and posin'.

[BVS]

well, this saturday the first drink of the night was at the Sheaf house pub in Sheffield , next to the Sheffield united (hallowed) ground and there were two blokes djing Northern soul on cds to a small crowd but it was good dancing stuff,no advertising or forum promotion but all the same a little niche night that pubs put on to get a few bodies in with a couple of dozen punters drinking bitter and eating pork scratchings. proper northern pub, proper northern music (although cd), proper passion for the sounds and definately a pattern you could find anywhere in Rotherham, Rochdale, Blackburn or whereever, Northern soul is the possession of the working Northern man/woman and has only become elitist because there are too few and too expensive record shops now to accomodate the average bloke in the street - so he gets his northern soul in Tescos or a shopping centre, i still beleive Soul music is extremely popular with people who need something uplifting after a 40 hour week at a forktruck factory. Stuff £100 records.You dont buy a medal.A soulie is a man who's soul is lifted by sweet music and feels the need to dance and forget the grind?

[BVS]

Soulacola, You talk the same language as me and not just because you're a Blade like me. I agree with everything you say, although I expect that the music at the Sheaf may be a bit 'Northern' for me as opposed to 60s. Anyway there's only one to find out and that means a visit to the Sheaf for a few pints , provided it doesn't clash with the Wheel dates.