Have been reading Tim Browns "Rare Soul detective" ( very good too), and Tim mentions the fact that he has met numerous label owners, artists etc who were/are totally unaware of the issues of their record on a U.K. label ( which I was aware of like many others), and states that in fact a number of these are tantamount to bootlegs ( I hasten to add not ALL as TB does say). The question now is which ones are they ?. Certain folks like Ady C and Tony Rounce will have come across the same situation via their Ace/ Kent work.

Brett F

Just to clarify, i don't mean the obvious ones, but more those thought of as genuine U.K. release ie. Stateside, Vocalion, Sue, President etc. But i'm sure you see where i'm coming from.

Brett

Edited October 3, 200816 yr by Brett F

  Brett F said:

Have been reading Tim Browns "Rare Soul detective" ( very good too), and Tim mentions the fact that he has met numerous label owners, artists etc who were/are totally unaware of the issues of their record on a U.K. label ( which I was aware of like many others), and states that in fact a number of these are tantamount to bootlegs ( I hasten to add not ALL as TB does say). The question now is which ones are they ?. Certain folks like Ady C and Tony Rounce will have come across the same situation via their Ace/ Kent work.

Brett F

Just to clarify, i don't mean the obvious ones, but more those thought of as genuine U.K. release ie. Stateside, Vocalion, Sue, President etc. But i'm sure you see where i'm coming from.

Brett

I'd imagine that a lot of artists were unaware of their UK releases - including Bo Diddley for some time, if I recall correctly - but I think that's probably more down to the shadiness of the US label owners than anything else.

No idea on President, but I would have thought that Stateside (part of EMI) would have been legitimate.

Yeah, the point i am making is that the "Bootleg" term is an easily misunderstood term, basically if a company does not pay the necessary royalties, legal fees etc, then that release is illegal, and apparently that did happen via a few UK release soul records (AND ONCE AGAIN, I MEAN THE TYPE THAT ARE THOUGHT TO BE GENUINE RELEASE RECORDS), and once again to clarify my initial point, via some very well known labels. Of course the artist might have been the last person to know, but i am also on about label owners etc ( the real meat of the bone, ie. those that should have been paid for their work)

  Brett F said:

Yeah, the point i am making is that the "Bootleg" term is an easily misunderstood term, basically if a company does not pay the necessary royalties, legal fees etc, then that release is illegal, and apparently that did happen via a few UK release soul records (AND ONCE AGAIN, I MEAN THE TYPE THAT ARE THOUGHT TO BE GENUINE RELEASE RECORDS), and once again to clarify my initial point, via some very well known labels. Of course the artist might have been the last person to know, but i am also on about label owners etc ( the real meat of the bone, ie. those that should have been paid for their work)

Indeed. I'd be very interested in knowing what Stateside releases weren't legit. Or Vocalion or Sue, for that matter.

apparently Guy Stevens was a bit fast and loose when it came to some of the Sue releases.

  john s said:

Indeed. I'd be very interested in knowing what Stateside releases weren't legit. Or Vocalion or Sue, for that matter.

Yes John, that is my point of the post, people like Tim Brown know an awful lot more than a helluva lot of us put together, i just thought it was a very interesting subject, seeing as a host of collectors have UK release soul records.

Alexander Jackson & The Turnkeys on UK Sue... actually Lala Wilson "Fleapot"

  pikeys dog said:

apparently Guy Stevens was a bit fast and loose when it came to some of the Sue releases.

Some of them sound like they're dubbed off disc too!

  pikeys dog said:

apparently Guy Stevens was a bit fast and loose when it came to some of the Sue releases.

Ok Joe mate, yeah it's very interesting like i have just posted...bottom line a bootleg (like i stated legal reasons etc) is a bootleg, be interested how many have records they think are legitimate.

Brett

  Brett F said:

Ok Joe mate, yeah it's very interesting like i have just posted...bottom line a bootleg (like i stated legal reasons etc) is a bootleg, be interested how many have records they think are legitimate.

Brett

To be honest, I'm not that bothered about whether some Sue 45s are legit or not - I'd still much rather have a nice crisp Sue in a wavy-top sleeve than a US copy of the same record.

But I've always preferred original UK copies if they exist, so I'm not the best person to comment!

  john s said:

To be honest, I'm not that bothered about whether some Sue 45s are legit or not - I'd still much rather have a nice crisp Sue in a wavy-top sleeve than a US copy of the same record.

But I've always preferred original UK copies if they exist, so I'm not the best person to comment!

WHAT....that is outrageous, it goes against everything that record collectors strive for......ORIGINALITY, and to say you are not bothered, good God in heaven, hang your head in shame my dear fellow. You also counter your argument by saying you prefer ORIGINAL COPIES !!!!

Brett

Edited October 3, 200816 yr by Brett F

  john s said:

To be honest, I'm not that bothered about whether some Sue 45s are legit or not - I'd still much rather have a nice crisp Sue in a wavy-top sleeve than a US copy of the same record.

But I've always preferred original UK copies if they exist, so I'm not the best person to comment!

To put it into layman terms, if you have a problem with the electrics in your house, then i'll say i'm an electrician (i'm not !) you pay me good money to fix your problem, i take it..within a day your house is burnt to a filthy cinder............

Edited October 3, 200816 yr by Brett F

Rubbing liniment Brett?

  pikeys dog said:

Rubbing liniment Brett?

?...Not suffering from any ailment Joe ?

  Brett F said:

To put it into layman terms, if you have a problem with the electrics in your house, then i'll say i'm an electrician (i'm not !) you pay me good money to fix your problem, i take it..within a day your house is burnt to a filthy cinder............

I'm not entirely sure how that works in layman's terms. I've had some Sue 45s for twenty-five years and my house hasn't burnt down once!

silver polish?

  pikeys dog said:

Rubbing liniment Brett?

Your a collector Joe, does this not interest you....................

Edited October 3, 200816 yr by Brett F

  john s said:

I'm not entirely sure how that works in layman's terms. I've had some Sue 45s for twenty-five years and my house hasn't burnt down once!

look at my original post. or even yours......a boot is a boot, if you are not bothered then that is your choice, and i respect that...but it doesn't work for me different ethos altogether.

To be honest Brett, i very rarely pick up UK copies of 45s these days for my own collection (Action/Stax/Soul City/Deep Soul/Black Atlantic/Chees excepted), and if I did manage to pick a US copy up afterward I would let the UK one go, so no it doesn't bother me one jot.

UK collectors are a breed apart... why anyone would pay daft wedge for a UK demo of a US chart smash just because it's got a big green or red A on it is beyond my ken.

  pikeys dog said:

To be honest Brett, i very rarely pick up UK copies of 45s these days for my own collection (Action/Stax/Soul City/Deep Soul/Black Atlantic/Chees excepted), and if I did manage to pick a US copy up afterward I would let the UK one go, so no it doesn't bother me one jot.

UK collectors are a breed apart... why anyone would pay daft wedge for a UK demo of a US chart smash just because it's got a big green or red A on it is beyond my ken.

Hi Joe, you know me...the whole point of the thread is that one of the most knowledgeable men on the rare soul scene has written that some UK issues are tantamount to bootlegs.....i'm just interested in which they are, because in my eyes they are then worthless. See my point about royalties etc.and what that term bootleg actually encapsulates.

ps say hello to your good lady.

Edited October 3, 200816 yr by Brett F

  Brett F said:

look at my original post. or even yours......a boot is a boot, if you are not bothered then that is your choice, and i respect that...but it doesn't work for me different ethos altogether.

No, I understand your original post - it says that some unspecified UK records were apparently not legit issues, according to some unspecified people, quoted by Tim Brown.

I just don't understand what the electrician story is about, or what relevance it has.

I also said that I would much have original UK copies where they exist - I'd much rather have Sugar Pie Desanto, say, on Pye International than on Checker.

But I wouldn't want a Mojo copy of the Fascinations - or a Sue one, for that matter, I'll stick to the Stateside copy.

Of course, if there isn't a UK release, I'll settle for a US copy.

Edited October 3, 200816 yr by john s

  john s said:

No, I understand your original post - it says that some unspecified UK records were apparently not legit issues, according to some unspecified people, quoted by Tim Brown.

I just don't understand what the electrician story is about, or what relevance it has.

I also said that I would much have original UK copies where they exist - I'd much rather have Sugar Pie Desanto, say, on Pye International than on Checker.

But I wouldn't want a Mojo copy of the Fascinations - or a Sue one, for that matter, I'll stick to the Stateside copy.

Of course, if there isn't a UK release, I'll settle for a US copy.

For Gods sake it's an analogy.....you pay good money for a faux product..............hense the fake electrician........cannot believe i have had to type that out.............Geez.some people.

  Brett F said:

For Gods sake it's an analogy.....you pay good money for a faux product..............hense the fake electrician........cannot believe i have had to type that out.............Geez.some people.

I realise it's supposed to be an analogy, but it doesn't work for me, I'm afraid!

  john s said:

No, I understand your original post - it says that some unspecified UK records were apparently not legit issues, according to some unspecified people, quoted by Tim Brown.

I just don't understand what the electrician story is about, or what relevance it has.

I also said that I would much have original UK copies where they exist - I'd much rather have Sugar Pie Desanto, say, on Pye International than on Checker.

But I wouldn't want a Mojo copy of the Fascinations - or a Sue one, for that matter, I'll stick to the Stateside copy.

Of course, if there isn't a UK release, I'll settle for a US copy.

look John you have already stated that you are not bothered if the Sue releases you have are legitimate or not.and i concur with your judgement, that is your choice not mine, all i disagree on is that i would always prefer the original release and not a "fake" product.

  john s said:

I realise it's supposed to be an analogy, but it doesn't work for me, I'm afraid!

Well i suppose in the same way fake records don't work for me............

  Brett F said:

look John you have already stated that you are not bothered if the Sue releases you have are legitimate or not.and i concur with your judgement, that is your choice not mine, all i disagree on is that i would always prefer the original release and not a "fake" product.

What if you bought a fantastic US soul 45 and then discovered that the label owner had cheated the artist out of all their royalties?

Surely that would be more of a moral quandary?

Someone once told me that some of the Action releases were a bit dubious. I don't know anything about the UK record industry, so that's just here say....

  john s said:

No, I understand your original post - it says that some unspecified UK records were apparently not legit issues, according to some unspecified people, quoted by Tim Brown.

I just don't understand what the electrician story is about, or what relevance it has.

I also said that I would much have original UK copies where they exist - I'd much rather have Sugar Pie Desanto, say, on Pye International than on Checker.

But I wouldn't want a Mojo copy of the Fascinations - or a Sue one, for that matter, I'll stick to the Stateside copy.

Of course, if there isn't a UK release, I'll settle for a US copy.

I just want to state that i would prefer the original release in the records i collect ie. the majority i own were released on US labels first (not all), once again that is a personal choice (does not make it the right one, but it suits my tastes)

  john s said:

What if you bought a fantastic US soul 45 and then discovered that the label owner had cheated the artist out of all their royalties?

Surely that would be more of a moral quandary?

i'd take a drop forged pipe wrench to the beast and destroy it in front of a thousand people........

Edited October 3, 200816 yr by Brett F

  Brett F said:

i'd take a drop forged pipe wrench to the beast and destroy in front of a thousand people........

Blimey! I'll stand well back then!

Would still be interested to know what Stateside issues are shady, though - I'd imagine EMI in the 60s had a pretty straight-laced contracts and licensing department, especially when compared to some of the flightier independents.

  john s said:

Blimey! I'll stand well back then!

Would still be interested to know what Stateside issues are shady, though - I'd imagine EMI in the 60s had a pretty straight-laced contracts and licensing department, especially when compared to some of the flightier independents.

Hi John, yeah the whole point of the thread is to find out what shady (your term) 45's etc were released as so called genuine releases.

Brett

Once again, on a serious note i find the subject fascinating, the bottom line is that a bootleg (illegal release) is a bootleg,no matter how coveted it may be as a U.K. issue.

I just would like to know what is what that's all.

Edited October 3, 200816 yr by Brett F

hi brett i would have thought that if the UK issues are not fully legit it was probably the US label that was at fault as the contracts division in the 60's would have been pretty strict, so the US issuing company would have pocketed the funds as the artist in all probability would not have known of any other country issuing the record, this may include australian and european releases as well. so in legality with the contracts being legit would that not make it a legit issue? as the money would be owed by the US issueing label.

mark

I'm sure the licensing deal between US Sue and the UK label bearing it's name was a bit grey after the first 3 or 2 Inez & Charlie Foxx releases, initially a UK outlet for US Sue records it soon was releasing records that had been made popular by Guy Stevens at the Scene club, I would be surprised if Thelma were aware or much bothered by the release of Joe Matthews unless it had been a hit over here.

  pikeys dog said:

apparently Guy Stevens was a bit fast and loose when it came to some of the Sue releases.

I must admit, this was rumoured years ago about Sue Records.

I didn't realise that there were others though.

Oh apart from Going To A Happening on Vocalion UK & Vault US

I'm sure that I have read on here that Popcorn wasn't aware of these two releases.

  Brett F said:

Have been reading Tim Browns "Rare Soul detective" ( very good too), and Tim mentions the fact that he has met numerous label owners, artists etc who were/are totally unaware of the issues of their record on a U.K. label ( which I was aware of like many others), and states that in fact a number of these are tantamount to bootlegs ( I hasten to add not ALL as TB does say). The question now is which ones are they ?. Certain folks like Ady C and Tony Rounce will have come across the same situation via their Ace/ Kent work.

Brett F

Just to clarify, i don't mean the obvious ones, but more those thought of as genuine U.K. release ie. Stateside, Vocalion, Sue, President etc. But i'm sure you see where i'm coming from.

Brett

Guy Stevens was the first bootlegger and he used Island records to press his bootlegs on ! He Called it "Sue" records he did !

No one really knows really what Guy pressed up on Sue....... things still turn up that experts have never seen........little of it was legal, as Chris Blackwell found out later !!!

Has anyone got any of Guys 12 inch "Sue" DJ Lps from the early 60s ? I think Pete Townsend has a couple ! I would like to hear what is on them ! (I have heard rumours)

They must be the best clues as to the real authentic sounds from the early 60s mod scene ??

Guy Stevens and Simon Soussain ! They do seem to be musical scene mavericks when you look back ! Blokes who did not give a shit about anything in life but their fav music!

And they both dissapeared from the surface of this plannet..... never to be seen again !!!!!

Now thats weird!!!!

And so is this! An Alldayer!

Edited October 4, 200816 yr by mossy

  mossy said:

And they both dissapeared from the surface of this plannet..... never to be seen again !!!!!

Now thats weird!!!!

Not exactly. Guy Stevens went on to produce The Clash and died soon after. Simon Soussan is out there somewhere, I know for a fact because he emailed me to put something I'd said about him right, though that was about 6 years ago.

  Pete S said:

Simon Soussan is out there somewhere,

Hope he never bumps into Brett & his drop forged pipe wrench

i remember phil dick telling me that he had aquired the rights for "i really love you" (bobby james / jimmy burns) off of bobby james in the mid 90's, bobby james had no knowledge of the grapevine release

It's just not UK releases, there plenty of US releases that the artist hadn't a clue their effort was released, in lots of cases the were just paid for a session the tapes were then offered around to whoever and released, the only time artist would have been aware if it struck gold and became a hit, there's numerous stories of this happening in the states, so why be suprised it happended in the UK or else where in the world.

  funkyfeet said:

It's just not UK releases, there plenty of US releases that the artist hadn't a clue their effort was released, in lots of cases the were just paid for a session the tapes were then offered around to whoever and released, the only time artist would have been aware if it struck gold and became a hit, there's numerous stories of this happening in the states, so why be suprised it happended in the UK or else where in the world.

  Pete S said:

Not exactly. Guy Stevens went on to produce The Clash and died soon after. Simon Soussan is out there somewhere, I know for a fact because he emailed me to put something I'd said about him right, though that was about 6 years ago.

Bugger. I forgot about that ! He was still the first Soul bootlegger tho !

I do know that those Mar-v-lus/ One-der-ful releases on President were considered dodgy by US label owners.

I was in their warehouse in '79 and one of the guys asked me about President. He'd heard they'd put stuff out and he'd not been a party to it.

ROD

  john s said:

Classic

  modernsoulsucks said:

I do know that those Mar-v-lus/ One-der-ful releases on President were considered dodgy by US label owners.

I was in their warehouse in '79 and one of the guys asked me about President. He'd heard they'd put stuff out and he'd not been a party to it.

ROD

Ed Kassner was George Leaner's publisher in the UK and it seems they had a good long-term relationship via middle man Lenny Mietus who handled overseas deals for many US publishers and small labels.

So I doubt any of Kassner's UK issues of One-derful / Mar-V-Lus / M-Pac tracks on President could be described as bootlegs.

Leaner and Kassner are deceased but their respective sons (and nephews) are still in business. Lenny Mietus also passed away recently.

It's more likely this "bootleg" story emerged because some of the artists may not have known their work had been issued in the UK. Even more likely is my theory that the Leaner family weren't always aware of deals which Mietus had made on their behalf.

Best regards,

Paul

  Paul Mooney said:

Ed Kassner was George Leaner's publisher in the UK and it seems they had a good long-term relationship via middle man Lenny Mietus who handled overseas deals for many US publishers and small labels.

So I doubt any of Kassner's UK issues of One-derful / Mar-V-Lus / M-Pac tracks on President could be described as bootlegs.

Leaner and Kassner are deceased but their respective sons (and nephews) are still in business. Lenny Mietus also passed away recently.

It's more likely this "bootleg" story emerged because some of the artists may not have known their work had been issued in the UK. Even more likely is my theory that the Leaner family weren't always aware of deals which Mietus had made on their behalf.

Best regards,

Paul

It wouldn't be unusual in my experience for U.S. artists to be totally ignorant of their foreign releases - especially in the 60's. Most of the indie label deals would probably have been made with the labels via middlemen who knew the foreign market better and the majors would do what they wanted if they thought they'd sell a few.

I mean, even in 2008 I don't think artists would necessarily have a clue about what's being released in Venezuala or Equador for example and, truth be known, they're probably being worked in more lucrative territories and don't have much time to think about these things.

So, business wise, I always tend to take the label owners a bit more seriously then the artists 'cos artists wouldn't necessarily know. They're too busy being artists!

Ian D

There are some interesting comments on this thread, but it would be rather enlightening to "name and shame" some of the welter of current specialist Northern Soul labels, which appear to be getting off scott free, and are apparently beyond criticism! I avoid them all on the basis that I just don't know what's legit and what isn't! I assume that most of these releases are straight forward rip-offs, so why are they so acceptable?

  john s said:

wavy-top sleeve

am i a bad person for trimming these flat so they'll fit in cardboard sleeves...?

(but at least i don't push out the middles!)

  michael-j said:

am i a bad person for trimming these flat so they'll fit in cardboard sleeves...?

Send them to me instead! I have a recent box of rocksteady acquisitions that needs sleeving!

  john s said:

I'm not entirely sure how that works in layman's terms. I've had some Sue 45s for twenty-five years and my house hasn't burnt down once!