O.v.o And C.r.&.p Venues

[Mark R]

That can be easily solved by an OVO DJ , Ian .........

They take their own pair of styli , and use them whilst they are doing thier set .......

Not a farcical idea , as I know several DJs who do this ........

Malc Burton

I never understand this, because different styli require different tracking weight/anti-skate settings. In a relative sense, your own styli, whatever these settings, might be an advantage but it's not the whole story and not completely the answer from my understanding.

I'd be more worried about the dreaded talc Malc ( ).............I would definitley play me raries off CD-R in an environment like that!! Instant sandpaper anyone????

I remember DJ'ing in Bournmouth for top lad Jason Desmond, and when we got there he was taking a couple of boxes out of his bag and promptly changed the styli.........."I'm not asking you guys to come all this way and ruin your records on crap equipment...." he proclaimed. How refreshing! For the reasons outlined at the start of my post, I think it is the promoters responsibility actually.

I agree with Ian, it's nuts..........your tunes ARE there to be played and not just caressed, and you might NOT consider them an investment............but you DO LOVE THEM really don't you??? Just think about it seriously for a moment.

Cheers,

Mark R

[Sebastian]

I never understand this, because different styli require different tracking weight/anti-skate settings.

Just adjust the tracking weight and anti-skating settings to fit your own stylus/cartridge when you replace it. Takes about 30 seconds per turntable if you know how to do it and have done it a couple of times earlier. Always bring a blank disc to be able to properly adjust the anti-skating.

Otherwise I agree with you, it can make a lot of damage to your records if you just replace the stylus and keep going with the previous setting.

[Guest wrighty]

That can be easily solved by an OVO DJ , Ian .........

They take their own pair of styli , and use them whilst they are doing thier set .......

Not a farcical idea , as I know several DJs who do this ........

Malc Burton

agreed malc, i did post something similar about, ooh 3 pages ago...would appear to have fallen on 'deaf' ears tho

[Russ Vickers]

I know this might come over as being a bit strange, but it must be said as it happens...............I personally do not have a problem, with your local yokal soul night playing music from what ever format they see fit. On the whole it doesnt matter, the DJ is not pretending to be anything other than what they are & they have probably no further ambition DJ/promoter wise. If you asked them they would be totally honest & open with regards to all these issues & to be fair most likely playing a mixture of originals/boots/reissues & probably no carvers, as opposed to all boots or what ever. These people in my experience are generally quite unassuming & harmless & genuinely do what they do for the pure pleasure, certainly the couple of do's we have in my general area, one has been running in some form or another for over 20 years, the vast majority who attend regularly & have done for most of the time the event has been running, NEVER go any where else EVER. This is not because of sour grapes or any other reason what so ever, they wouldnt even consider it, most have never been to an Allnighter EVER, those that have, went well over 20 years ago & then were never regular attendees, more like they were swept along with what was the 'in' thing at the time. This event does not effect the local scene in any way shape or form what so ever & I defend their right to carry on doing what ever they want, they do not take punters from any other event & they have no bearing on NS what so ever, nor do they aspire to. The other event in the area has been going for slightly less time, but all of the above applies............the people attending & promoting & DJing have no aspirations other than to enjoy them selves...............most have absolutely no idea about the complexities of the greater NS SCENE, they neither know nor care, if you were to speak about it, you may well be speaking a different language, they would not have a scooby doo about & are genuinely nice people, who love to play & dance to ordinary club classic type NS with the odd reissue or boot of a more popular recent play, when I say this I mean something like 'Just Loving You'. This scenario i have no issue with what so ever & long may these events continue & long may the punters that go enjoy them..............BTW as an after thought, very few are SS members, they wouldnt know this site existed & why would they need to visit it ????????????.

So where do my issues lie................wannabe DJ/Promoters who are pretending to be something they are not by putting on events so they can DJ with their mates & pretend theyre important to the NS scene. These events do effect the NS scene cos they masquerde as the real thing & hide behind the defence I use for the real local soul nights as stated above, with regard to the bootleg/reissue scenario, many of these guys are having carvers done of big current tunes & will pass them off as originals if they can get away with it...................... they will use the, 'well the punter doesnt care they just wanna dance type excuses' constantly if caught out & will hide behind the genuine defence I have used for the real local soul nights........................thats my problem with C.R.A.P venues & I mean the latter ones I have discussed.

OK confused, so am I...............not sure if I have put this over very eloquently so I do apologise & I have not wanted to sound elitist in any way, just try to be honest.

Russ

[Mark R]

Just adjust the tracking weight and anti-skating settings to fit your own stylus/cartridge when you replace it. Takes about 30 seconds per turntable if you know how to do it and have done it a couple of times earlier.

Agreed, but you do need to be armed with that info from your stylus spec, and how do you know they will be compatible? Of course, if you know they are a partcular type of deck, you can bring a pair of headshells/styli and you're laughing. And 30 secs (x2) to re-set the decks can be an eternity when you're preparing for battle and wanting to concentrate on tune selection.

It is an irony that some of this seems lost on lots of people who are putting £kkk's tunes on the decks. You wouldn't put normal unleaded in your McLaren Mercedes SLR would you.............??

Cheers,

Mark R

Cheers,

Mark R

[Roger Williams]

I know this might come over as being a bit strange, but it must be said as it happens...............I personally do not have a problem, with your local yokal soul night playing music from what ever format they see fit. On the whole it doesnt matter, the DJ is not pretending to be anything other than what they are & they have probably no further ambition DJ/promoter wise. If you asked them they would be totally honest & open with regards to all these issues & to be fair most likely playing a mixture of originals/boots/reissues & probably no carvers, as opposed to all boots or what ever. These people in my experience are generally quite unassuming & harmless & genuinely do what they do for the pure pleasure, certainly the couple of do's we have in my general area, one has been running in some form or another for over 20 years, the vast majority who attend regularly & have done for most of the time the event has been running, NEVER go any where else EVER. This is not because of sour grapes or any other reason what so ever, they wouldnt even consider it, most have never been to an Allnighter EVER, those that have, went well over 20 years ago & then were never regular attendees, more like they were swept along with what was the 'in' thing at the time. This event does not effect the local scene in any way shape or form what so ever & I defend their right to carry on doing what ever they want, they do not take punters from any other event & they have no bearing on NS what so ever, nor do they aspire to. The other event in the area has been going for slightly less time, but all of the above applies............the people attending & promoting & DJing have no aspirations other than to enjoy them selves...............most have absolutely no idea about the complexities of the greater NS SCENE, they neither know nor care, if you were to speak about it, you may well be speaking a different language, they would not have a scooby doo about & are genuinely nice people, who love to play & dance to ordinary club classic type NS with the odd reissue or boot of a more popular recent play, when I say this I mean something like 'Just Loving You'. This scenario i have no issue with what so ever & long may these events continue & long may the punters that go enjoy them..............BTW as an after thought, very few are SS members, they wouldnt know this site existed & why would they need to visit it ????????????.

So where do my issues lie................wannabe DJ/Promoters who are pretending to be something they are not by putting on events so they can DJ with their mates & pretend theyre important to the NS scene. These events do effect the NS scene cos they masquerde as the real thing & hide behind the defence I use for the real local soul nights as stated above, with regard to the bootleg/reissue scenario, many of these guys are having carvers done of big current tunes & will pass them off as originals if they can get away with it...................... they will use the, 'well the punter doesnt care they just wanna dance type excuses' constantly if caught out & will hide behind the genuine defence I have used for the real local soul nights........................thats my problem with C.R.A.P venues & I mean the latter ones I have discussed.

OK confused, so am I...............not sure if I have put this over very eloquently so I do apologise & I have not wanted to sound elitist in any way, just try to be honest.

Russ

Quite possibly THE most ridiculously patronising and condescending and elitist post I've ever read on this forum. Not wanted to sound elist? "These people are unassuming and harmless"? "Speaking a different language"? "Dancing to ORDINARY club classics?" Bloody hell Russ, you couldn't have been anymore so if you tried mate!!!. I'm better at soul music than you lot!!!!

Roger

Edited September 16, 2008 by Soulsorts

[Steve G]

OK mate, all good but think some of your post needs further clarification...

...so you would support the programming of Grapevine / Kent 45's etc? i.e. legitimate vinyl releases - dues paid in full - as per the above?

I'm guessing you'll say yes to that question... but I'd wager that many would say or feel that these are unacceptable.

Sean

Asked and answered twice already Sean. I have meself played the Hesitations for example at venues. No qualms about that at all and it's 100 times better than hearing Billy Woods yet again.

CD tracks are hypothetical as hardly any northern venues have CD players. At a northern venue you KNOW there will be decks but don't know whether there will be a CD or even two, and that I think drives the Carver culture for unissued stuff. Plus as Pete S says CD's don't have the same "feel" as a "rekkid"

Edited September 16, 2008 by Steve G

[jocko]

Butch is resident at 4 main allnighters, not just 2 (Lifeline/100 Club/Keele/Kings Hall) though I suppose you could argue that his playlist is more restricted at Kings Hall than the first 3.

However, Butch has also chosen to be far more selective at which venues he DJs at, and coupled with the fact that he ain't cheap to book, means that many promoters can't either get him or afford him....so it's not just down to the scene, or indeed promoters, that he is not DJing as often as you believe he should be.

Regards

Mace

I forgot about these 2 but in all honesty wouldn't have counted either as think Kings Hall not part of what I am getting at and Keele is too irregular now to be in the mix for pushing new things regularly is it not.

I know about Butch being choosier where he plays but would ponder the reasoning behind that, not sure its just down to him not being bothered, quite the opposite in my opinion but only Butch can really explain that.

As for the expense, quality very rarely comes cheap and I doubt that the extra Butch is asking is the difference between breaking even, and if is then you are saying that Butch won't attract extra punters to make up the difference, which I am afraid is an even sadder state of affairs. Lets be honest here, I am sure what he is asking is still a lot less than a mediocre club DJ will be getting on other scenes, the wage scales for Northern DJ's is frankly embarassing.

As i have stated already i don't think "joe punter" gives a flying f### as to what format is being played as long as they can dance to it. I also think that steve has the right idea in not listing venues but listing dj's that people know who play ovo, imho

That really depends on what sort of punters you are talking about, almost all gigs I have been to in 31 years, with the odd exception, the punters have cared very much, however its not been an issue or even a discussion point at these gigs because the people going expect no less and choose their gigs carefully. Sadly a large % of these people have no more interest in todays scene because of attitudes like above, you are making a sweeping generalisation which says more about the places you go to and the people you go with than the scene in general.

I've said this before "LET HE/SHE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE" and i mean ever !!!! whos got the balls not many me thinks i'll happily be ducked Ken , it'll be quite refreshing i once played a Carlena boot

Trying to be nice here Di, but not really sure what you are trying to say. As I keep saying go to the right places with the right people then think you will find there are many "without sin" as you say, its not really a big deal, too many people are missing my point here and I am afraid you are one. You keep playing your records at your little soul nights and I don't really think anyone gives a jot, just don't pretend its part of the bigger equation, which is really what I think is the point at discussion here.

I give in!

[Steve G]

I've never actually felt the need to approach the decks.

Such a hideous stench emanates from the speakers when

a non-legit eddie parker is spun that it's evident it's not OV.

under those circumstances one has no other option but to

abandon the ubiquitous maple sprung floor and seek

solace in a bottomless glass in the breathtakingly tacky lounge bar, replete

with 'real leather' sofas.

Funny you should say that - heard a spin for Lester Tipton last year and it sounded such an awful copy - like a carver had been cut from a cassette or something. We all agreed, that ain't an original - it sounds so awful.

[Steve G]

I've said this before "LET HE/SHE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE" and i mean ever !!!! whos got the balls not many me thinks i'll happily be ducked Ken , it'll be quite refreshing i once played a Carlena boot

Havent played a northern bootleg since I was a schoolkid. Sorry to burst that bubble Di.

Any DJ worth their salt can put together an hour of originals without having to resort to boots.

[Russ Vickers]

Quite possibly THE most ridiculously patronising and condescending and elitist post I've ever read on this forum. "Not wanted to sound elist"? Bloody hell Russ, you couldn't have been anymore so if you tried mate!!!.

Roger

But it really is not intended to sound like that Roger, you know me & we get along I like to think, altho we dont agree on everything we agree I hope that we're both passionate about soul music.............fact is Roger the genuine local soul nights nobody really has an issue with. Im sorry but Im finding it difficult to express myself properly without sounding a knob, but my intention is to defend the genuine local soul nights, whilst pointing out, that some people Promoter/DJ wise will use this format as a vehicle to either make money or try to further thier dubious DJing careers.

And I most definately do not think Im better at Soul Music than anyone else.

Russ

Edited September 16, 2008 by Russ Vickers

[Roger Williams]

But it really is not intended to sound like that Roger, you know me & we get along I like to think, altho we dont agree on everything we agree I hope that we're both passionate about soul music.............fact is Roger the genuine local soul nights nobody really has an issue with. Im sorry but Im finding it difficult to express myself properly without sounding a knob, but my intention is to defend the genuine local soul nights, whilst pointing out, that some people Promoter/DJ wise will use this format as a vehicle to either make money or try to further thier dubious DJing careers.

And I most definately do not think Im better at Soul Music than anyone else.

Russ

Of course we get along Russ, that's not the issue mate, I know you're passionate and one of the good guys, it was just how your post read at face value.

Roger

[michael-j]

Agreed, but you do need to be armed with that info from your stylus spec, and how do you know they will be compatible? Of course, if you know they are a partcular type of deck, you can bring a pair of headshells/styli and you're laughing.

errr, all proper DJ turntables have a standard headshell mount, so they are always compatible.

have used one or two where the mounting must have been damaged, and in that case had to just replace the stylus itself, but otherwise i always replace the cartridges, unless another DJ has, and always set the arm weight and anti-skating.

you really don't want to be using the needles left in clubs or on hired equipment.

and the number of times i've seen people playing rare records on decks with the weights reversed, i.e. numbers facing away from the DJ - after a hip hop DJ has turned the armweight around to make it heavier - or with coins on the headshell... if it's skipping then either the needles need replacing or there's vibrations that need to be stopped - a paving slab or polystyrene blocks under the decks often can sort that

[Chalky]

But it really is not intended to sound like that Roger, you know me & we get along I like to think, altho we dont agree on everything we agree I hope that we're both passionate about soul music.............fact is Roger the genuine local soul nights nobody really has an issue with. Im sorry but Im finding it difficult to express myself properly without sounding a knob, but my intention is to defend the genuine local soul nights, whilst pointing out, that some people Promoter/DJ wise will use this format as a vehicle to either make money or try to further thier dubious DJing careers.

And I most definately do not think Im better at Soul Music than anyone else.

Russ

I've no wish to get involved in to this argument again but what is a genuine local soul night? Some might say that it is every event staged any given weekend excluding all-nighters. Most all-nighters now start 8 or 9pm and most who travel tend to head for the all-nighter now and bypass the soul night. Soul nights primarily target the local soulies in the area.

Granted some areas have large catchment areas and can generate large crowds for some events but it doesn't make them any less local than a soul night that generates just 50 or 60 (or less) paying customers because their area is a more remote with a smaller catchment area

Edited September 16, 2008 by chalky

[Trev Thomas]

Havent played a northern bootleg since I was a schoolkid. Sorry to burst that bubble Di.

Any DJ worth their salt can put together an hour of originals without having to resort to boots.

here we go...an hours set of originals that can be purchased for probably less than an hours set of boots

mamie galore - it aint necessary - st lawrence

chuck jackson - good things - wand

j. j. barnes - please let me in - ric tic

mirettes - he's alright with me - mirwood

volumes - my kind of girl - inferno

companions - be yourself - g a

t.s.u. toronadoes - what good am i - atlantic

natural 4 - you cant keep running away - curtom

walter jenkins - back in my life - fader kat

deon jackson - i cant go on - carla

monclairs - wait for me - sunburst

creations - oh baby - globe

admirations - dont leave me - one-der-ful

betty everett - unlucky girl - uni

darrow fletcher - changing by the minute - uni

diane lewis - i thank you kindly - wand

superlatives - lonely in a crowd - dynamics / westbound

jimmy delphs - ive been fooled before - carla

betty lavette - only your love can save me - calla

greg perry - love control - chess

jive five - crying like a baby - musicor

george jackon - that lonely night - r.r. / cameo

thats just a few examples off the top of my head, theres loads of them out there & if you want to be a 70's dj then the worlds your lobster, theres thousands of cheap quality 45's to be had & more 70's albums with great tracks to be had for less than the price of a boot, so theres really no excuses

ive based the above list on records that can quite easily be found for £5 - £20, when you consider that boots are regularly changing hands on ebay for around fifty quid, then you could really up the ante,

Edited September 16, 2008 by soulman1964

[Mace]

I forgot about these 2 but in all honesty wouldn't have counted either as think Kings Hall not part of what I am getting at and Keele is too irregular now to be in the mix for pushing new things regularly is it not.

I know about Butch being choosier where he plays but would ponder the reasoning behind that, not sure its just down to him not being bothered, quite the opposite in my opinion but only Butch can really explain that.

As for the expense, quality very rarely comes cheap and I doubt that the extra Butch is asking is the difference between breaking even, and if is then you are saying that Butch won't attract extra punters to make up the difference, which I am afraid is an even sadder state of affairs. Lets be honest here, I am sure what he is asking is still a lot less than a mediocre club DJ will be getting on other scenes, the wage scales for Northern DJ's is frankly embarassing.

You're right, its not about him not being bothered, hence why I said he was being more selective...and nowt wrong with that, but if he doesn't want to do certain events then that's his decision, but that then accounts for a good percentage of events not having his name down as the main DJ.

Wage scales for DJs on this scene are embarassing, I totally agree......but if you wanna pull away from the oldies scene and do something different the market audience and resulting attendance figures are a lot lower, and costs a lot harder to cover...so yes, it could make the difference between breaking even for some clubs.

As for name DJs boosting attendance figures, well, it is sad to say that I personally don't think any one DJ has a major impact on attendance figures nowadays....moreso the whole package of DJ list/venue/location/personal finances tends to govern attendance figures imo.

Coupled with fact that there are far more events to choose from, easier access to what were 'unavailable' tunes via the net etc....whatever, but less people tend to travel the hundreds of miles they used to.

I tend to agree with most of your original post, but I still think you made a somewhat sweeping statement regarding Butch and his bookings at many allnighters.

Regards

Mace

[Guest Paul]

The word ONEUPMANSHIP often comes to mind when I think about the scene.

I hear music with my ears, not my eyes.

All this rarity and exclusivity stuff is very interesting, of course, but I'm far more concerned about what a record sounds like, rather than how much it may be worth in financial terms.

I'm also more interested in who wrote a particular song or who played bass or whatever than which DJ "discovered" it or how many copies may be in circulation.

Music is far too important to grade it on anything other than its artistic merit or its emotional impact.

Good music is often priceless.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

[Epic]

here we go...an hours set of originals that can be purchased for probably less than an hours set of boots

mamie galore - it aint necessary - st lawrence

chuck jackson - good things - wand

j. j. barnes - please let me in - ric tic

mirettes - he's alright with me - mirwood

volumes - my kind of girl - inferno

companions - be yourself - g a

t.s.u. toronadoes - what good am i - atlantic

natural 4 - you cant keep running away - curtom

walter jenkins - back in my life - fader kat

deon jackson - i cant go on - carla

monclairs - wait for me - sunburst

creations - oh baby - globe

admirations - dont leave me - one-der-ful

betty everett - unlucky girl - uni

darrow fletcher - changing by the minute - uni

diane lewis - i thank you kindly - wand

superlatives - lonely in a crowd - dynamics / westbound

jimmy delphs - ive been fooled before - carla

betty lavette - only your love can save me - calla

greg perry - love control - chess

jive five - crying like a baby - musicor

george jackon - that lonely night - r.r. / cameo

thats just a few examples off the top of my head, theres loads of them out there & if you want to be a 70's dj then the worlds your lobster, theres thousands of cheap quality 45's to be had & more 70's albums with great tracks to be had for less than the price of a boot, so theres really no excuses

Great list of tunes - but would you keep the dancefloor full for an hour with that set. When all is said & done a full dancefloor dictates how good a spot the DJ has delivered.

[Russ Vickers]

Great list of tunes - but would you keep the dancefloor full for an hour with that set. When all is said & done a full dancefloor dictates how good a spot the DJ has delivered.

Depends on the night etc.

Russ

[Mark R]

errr, all proper DJ turntables have a standard headshell mount, so they are always compatible.

Fair play.....didn't realise that, usually only having to concern myself with Technics...........so if you're telling me that a Technics headshell will fit A Vestax deck, then fine......easy job!!

Cheers,

Mark R

[Trev Thomas]

Great list of tunes - but would you keep the dancefloor full for an hour with that set. When all is said & done a full dancefloor dictates how good a spot the DJ has delivered.

it wasn't a d.j. set per se, more a list of tunes off the top of my head...toss in a few more well known oldies, & with the currant popularity of 70's tunes,a few more of them, then, yeah, i think you could keep a dancefloor full, without having to resort to the playing of freddie chavez, duke browner, etc boots, lets not forget, theres also the motown catalogue that can be drawn upon for cheap floor fillers,both 60's and 70's, without having go down the baby love / reach out, road

i'm not saying that joe blogs & his mates who run a monthly village hall soul nite should overnight drop the playing of boots of the top 500 oldies, christ, if they did that then no funker would turn up for the next one, however, if over a period of time, started to phase in some originals & start to drop the boots then in the end everyone wins, guys like jocko & steve g, to name but two, have a wealth of knowledge, im sure they would be able to point people in the right direction of class originals at bootleg prices

Edited September 16, 2008 by soulman1964

[Sean Hampsey]

CD tracks are hypothetical as hardly any northern venues have CD players. At a northern venue you KNOW there will be decks but don't know whether there will be a CD or even two, and that I think drives the Carver culture for unissued stuff. Plus as Pete S says CD's don't have the same "feel" as a "rekkid"

Hah!

You and I both know that the reason CD's aren't used at Northern do's is cos Sam can't get the hang of em!

Rekkids Rule!

Sean

[Trev Thomas]

Hah!

You and I both know that the reason CD's aren't used at Northern do's is cos Sam can't get the hang of em!

Rekkids Rule!

Sean

sams still mourning the demise of the 78's

[jocko]

The word ONEUPMANSHIP often comes to mind when I think about the scene.

I hear music with my ears, not my eyes.

All this rarity and exclusivity stuff is very interesting, of course, but I'm far more concerned about what a record sounds like, rather than how much it may be worth in financial terms.

I'm also more interested in who wrote a particular song or who played bass or whatever than which DJ "discovered" it or how many copies may be in circulation.

Music is far too important to grade it on anything other than its artistic merit or its emotional impact.

Good music is often priceless.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

What has this got to do with any part of the discsussion, where has rareity or exclusivity etc been mentioned, its debating the format of the NS scene, where have any of your points been mentioned previously.

This post is yet another of you saying how wonderful you are, what a great chap you are and how crap the NS is, and how everyone into Northern has no taste and just likes big rare records, a view you repeat almost as much as our beloved local soul nights play Frank Wilson, although your repetition is much more tiresome.

If you want to talk music get over the media thread, lots of NS people putting on good music, and there are hundreds of us that can talk about the music who played it etc, so stop implying otherwise, This thread had a point, deal with it, otherwise shut up with your tiresome self promoting views. Unless you have something relevant to say, say nothing.

I am really getting fed up with people like you just digging for no reason and completely ill informed digs. If you don't get Northern then good, lots more not to get than there is to get, but at least be factual with your put downs.

The current "scene" has lots of faults and lots of things that are worth laughing at and having a dig at, feel free to do this rather than tell us how you are the leatest, the greatest real soul lover in the world.

[Simon M]

Gotta agree with Paul again.

Whatever you want to call them the critics on this thread who are reserving their venom for some little guy playing non-originals would be better off digesting what Jocko has written and maybe asking themselves why it's OK to slate the former purely on the basis of the format and yet allow OVO dj's to get away with the same ole same ole week in week out with a playlist merely plundered from rare 45s from past 25 years that if not overplayed are very familiar.

ROD

Yes this is very true! . Maybe these DJ bores and critics are hiding behind the fact, that they spin OV ?

ps. Never played or purchased a bootleg in my life!

Edited September 16, 2008 by Simon M

[jocko]

You're right, its not about him not being bothered, hence why I said he was being more selective...and nowt wrong with that, but if he doesn't want to do certain events then that's his decision, but that then accounts for a good percentage of events not having his name down as the main DJ.

Wage scales for DJs on this scene are embarassing, I totally agree......but if you wanna pull away from the oldies scene and do something different the market audience and resulting attendance figures are a lot lower, and costs a lot harder to cover...so yes, it could make the difference between breaking even for some clubs.

As for name DJs boosting attendance figures, well, it is sad to say that I personally don't think any one DJ has a major impact on attendance figures nowadays....moreso the whole package of DJ list/venue/location/personal finances tends to govern attendance figures imo.

Coupled with fact that there are far more events to choose from, easier access to what were 'unavailable' tunes via the net etc....whatever, but less people tend to travel the hundreds of miles they used to.

I tend to agree with most of your original post, but I still think you made a somewhat sweeping statement regarding Butch and his bookings at many allnighters.

Regards

Mace

I have to be honest the sweeping statement was sort of deliberate as I think its something that needs debated, and its interesting to hear someone like you who is promoting something different, genuinely different I believe, along the more traditional lines, putting your view over rather than a lot of armchair critics like me!!!

Also a lot of your points put in context why things can't be the way that I think they should be, but what it also does, to me, is confirm what I said originally. If all these people running their "something different" soul night packed in and attended your all nighter instead, it may not add hundreds to the door but enough to allow you to have more budget to spend.

To me this is the real cost of the proliferation of these soul nights, its killing the scene not protecting it, no matter what people think or want to tell themselves.

May sound brutal but to me its true and people who think otherwise are kidding themselves.

[Peter99]

Hah!

You and I both know that the reason CD's aren't used at Northern do's is cos Sam can't get the hang of em!

Rekkids Rule!

Sean

Poor old Sam!

[Guest Andy Kempster]

I think I will leave that one to the promoter to respond to, I am sure he will be far more eloquent than I possibly could be and also beg to differ.

QoFxx

thanks chrissie, i know we play 100% OVO and can sleep compfortably at night, see you soon

[Guest]

I forgot about these 2 but in all honesty wouldn't have counted either as think Kings Hall not part of what I am getting at and Keele is too irregular now to be in the mix for pushing new things regularly is it not.

I know about Butch being choosier where he plays but would ponder the reasoning behind that, not sure its just down to him not being bothered, quite the opposite in my opinion but only Butch can really explain that.

As for the expense, quality very rarely comes cheap and I doubt that the extra Butch is asking is the difference between breaking even, and if is then you are saying that Butch won't attract extra punters to make up the difference, which I am afraid is an even sadder state of affairs. Lets be honest here, I am sure what he is asking is still a lot less than a mediocre club DJ will be getting on other scenes, the wage scales for Northern DJ's is frankly embarassing.

That really depends on what sort of punters you are talking about, almost all gigs I have been to in 31 years, with the odd exception, the punters have cared very much, however its not been an issue or even a discussion point at these gigs because the people going expect no less and choose their gigs carefully. Sadly a large % of these people have no more interest in todays scene because of attitudes like above, you are making a sweeping generalisation which says more about the places you go to and the people you go with than the scene in general.

Trying to be nice here Di, but not really sure what you are trying to say. As I keep saying go to the right places with the right people then think you will find there are many "without sin" as you say, its not really a big deal, too many people are missing my point here and I am afraid you are one. You keep playing your records at your little soul nights and I don't really think anyone gives a jot, just don't pretend its part of the bigger equation, which is really what I think is the point at discussion here.

I give in!

Ah thanks for putting me firmly in my place i will now pop off to my local soul night , with my legs well and truly spanked and play my frank wilson boot , and thats me trying to be nice all my love Di xxxxx

[Ian Dewhirst]

Fair play.....didn't realise that, usually only having to concern myself with Technics...........so if you're telling me that a Technics headshell will fit A Vestax deck, then fine......easy job!!

Cheers,

Mark R

LOL. I've NEVER seen a pair of technics @ a Northern gig!

I actually think more of an emphasis should be put on the equipment. It's just nuts to think that people entrust £5K rarities to most of the equipment I've seen being used on the Northern scene.

All this talk of OVO reminds me of being in Somerset at a party a couple of years back and in one of the marquees there was a guy playing 78rpm records on an original gramophone. Interesting bloke, in that he was partial to 1920's, 30's and 40's big band tunes but ONLY providing thery were the original 78's and ONLY if played on an original gramophone player (like the one used as the old HMV logo with the dog - remember).

It was good shooting the breeze with him. He was obviously an eccentric because he was dressed in top and tails for a Summer party and the wind-up gramaphone player wasn't very loud so he wasn't exactly at the epicentre of things. He obviously believed in what he was doing plus he was obviously a highly unique DJ so I bade him and his two companions a fond farewell and went to join the other 500 people mashing it up in the main marquees.

A bloke out of time. Touching but sad.

I'm kinda split on this whole OVO thing. When I was deejaying on the scene 35 odd years ago, any deejays who played bootlegs were considered 'C' listers. However there was still a huge local audience for 'C' listers 'cos the scene was much bigger. And there weren't that many bootlegs/reissues back then either.

But the scene is a lot smaller now and just seems to be fragmenting further with some areas almost disappearing up their own arses. Plus the standard of deejaying isn't tremendous in so much as most DJ's these days are essentially collectors first and foremost and thus have a very good reason for propogating OVO policies. Plus, as always, there is a certain amount of elitism/snobbery around concerning the value of most records played.

I'm wondering whether this scene is comparible to the Premier League, where anyone who gets a sudden injection of cash and has a modicum of decent taste can immediately propell themselves into the Top 5? In which case, is this OVO thing more about the money, then about people's tastes?

I think Northern Soul needs to propell itself into the future and right now it's not doing that. 'Format policing' and bad equipment doesn't exactly help the situation if the scene is to move forward. Right now the scene seems to be heading along the same lines as my guy in Somerset with the gramophone!

The fact that so much great undiscovered stuff is now turning up on CD and cannot be played because of the bias against anything other than vinyl is just plain ridiculous to me.

It's about the MUSIC full stop. If a mind-numbingly brilliant unreleased Bob Relf track suddenly appeared on CD only, are the OVO guys saying they won't play it simply because of the format it's on?

Ian D

[Paul Shirley]

I know this might come over as being a bit strange, but it must be said as it happens...............I personally do not have a problem, with your local yokal soul night playing music from what ever format they see fit. On the whole it doesnt matter, the DJ is not pretending to be anything other than what they are & they have probably no further ambition DJ/promoter wise. If you asked them they would be totally honest & open with regards to all these issues & to be fair most likely playing a mixture of originals/boots/reissues & probably no carvers, as opposed to all boots or what ever. These people in my experience are generally quite unassuming & harmless & genuinely do what they do for the pure pleasure, certainly the couple of do's we have in my general area, one has been running in some form or another for over 20 years, the vast majority who attend regularly & have done for most of the time the event has been running, NEVER go any where else EVER. This is not because of sour grapes or any other reason what so ever, they wouldnt even consider it, most have never been to an Allnighter EVER, those that have, went well over 20 years ago & then were never regular attendees, more like they were swept along with what was the 'in' thing at the time. This event does not effect the local scene in any way shape or form what so ever & I defend their right to carry on doing what ever they want, they do not take punters from any other event & they have no bearing on NS what so ever, nor do they aspire to. The other event in the area has been going for slightly less time, but all of the above applies............the people attending & promoting & DJing have no aspirations other than to enjoy them selves...............most have absolutely no idea about the complexities of the greater NS SCENE, they neither know nor care, if you were to speak about it, you may well be speaking a different language, they would not have a scooby doo about & are genuinely nice people, who love to play & dance to ordinary club classic type NS with the odd reissue or boot of a more popular recent play, when I say this I mean something like 'Just Loving You'. This scenario i have no issue with what so ever & long may these events continue & long may the punters that go enjoy them..............BTW as an after thought, very few are SS members, they wouldnt know this site existed & why would they need to visit it ????????????.

So where do my issues lie................wannabe DJ/Promoters who are pretending to be something they are not by putting on events so they can DJ with their mates & pretend theyre important to the NS scene. These events do effect the NS scene cos they masquerde as the real thing & hide behind the defence I use for the real local soul nights as stated above, with regard to the bootleg/reissue scenario, many of these guys are having carvers done of big current tunes & will pass them off as originals if they can get away with it...................... they will use the, 'well the punter doesnt care they just wanna dance type excuses' constantly if caught out & will hide behind the genuine defence I have used for the real local soul nights........................thats my problem with C.R.A.P venues & I mean the latter ones I have discussed.

OK confused, so am I...............not sure if I have put this over very eloquently so I do apologise & I have not wanted to sound elitist in any way, just try to be honest.

Russ

most of this is exactly what i was trying to say on a diferent page ............ and thats the same reason i mentiond having mixed feelings . i couldent agree more my issues are simple after spending fortunes on records i like the punters to know the diference but its down to them what club they decide to go to, & unlike others on here am not going to keep crying and moaning about it .to listen to the big promotors and dj's that blame monthly soul nights all the time get over it people are geting old and for whatever reason's cant be botherd to go to yet another big do miles away .weather you like it or not its a fact . at my place i think i can say with my hand on my heart most if not all would not go further than 30 miles and if ther is nothing on they stay at home and watch telly ............i wish it was diferent we play originals all the time but the punters couldent give a flying fig or most of um dont , another thing they tel me is they see the scene now as full of politics & arsholes somthing am begining to agree with and if it gets any worse on here i will be looking for another site

[Maark]

.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Maark

[Epic]

The fact that so much great undiscovered stuff is now turning up on CD and cannot be played because of the bias against anything other than vinyl is just plain ridiculous to me.

It's about the MUSIC full stop. If a mind-numbingly brilliant unreleased Bob Relf track suddenly appeared on CD only, are the OVO guys saying they won't play it simply because of the format it's on?

Ian D

Been saying exactly the same thing for a long while now. There is so much good stuff that has only ever been released on CD - would be great to hear some of this music out & about - sadly current attitudes & certain people dictate otherwise.

Perhaps the "next generation" will listen to music with their ears, dance with their feet, enjoy with their heart & leave the politics to Westminster.

[Guest James Trouble]

OVO is often an excuse for the dullards to get behind the decks and play the most unimaginative boring sets of dross made up of tunes they dreamed of owning when they were teens after their 3 trips to the casino and now they have their mortgage and divorce paid off they can afford a 200 count full of Wonky Northern and of course they want to DJ. And when they can't they set up their own Wonky night in a village hall.

An OVO policy, although very important to the fabric of everything that this "thing" is, should not be an excuse to allow dullards to undermine the most important thing, the excitement and the buzz of the party. When that is gone, the "thing" is gone.

It's a serious problem at the moment, in my opinion.

[Guest ruffsounds]

I actually thought that was the point, travelling to hear a particular DJ at a particular venue, to hear records that are exclusive to that DJ......... havnt we been doing this for years.............with regards to legal reissues, for example the Shrine back catalogue, then yes, listen to the Kent LP's or the CD's at home until you puke & yes, your spot on mate, it means we can all broaden our collections & hear 'JD Bryant' at home or else where, but just dont DJ with anything unless its on the original format.

I do have 'carvers' of unissued material, just so I can DJ with them, unfortunately most NS venues still dont have a CD player let alone a device for playing 4 track tape, so I feel justified in doing this.

Russ

Hi Russ

The point i was trying to make was

1.If a certain tune was not booted or reissued in some format then people may never have heard about it thus would it survive within the N/S scene.

2. Would the same big ticket record still have the same valuation with only the few who knew about it or would it be worth less ?.

3. I thought anybody that has a love for this music should not be excluded from hearing or finding out who what or where a certain record came from and for the scene to grow so more people get to hear this great music.

Yes i do prefer OVO but would the scene be where it is today if it was not for the masses who tramp all over the UK and further every weekend without the knowledge gained by listening to each and every tune available be it a one off or million seller, or do we go underground again with a limited amount of venues per year.

cheers Ralph

[Pete S]

OVO is often an excuse for the dullards to get behind the decks and play the most unimaginative boring sets of dross made up of tunes they dreamed of owning when they were teens after their 3 trips to the casino and now they have their mortgage and divorce paid off they can afford a 200 count full of Wonky Northern and of course they want to DJ. And when they can't they set up their own Wonky night in a village hall.

An OVO policy, although very important to the fabric of everything that this "thing" is, should not be an excuse to allow dullards to undermine the most important thing, the excitement and the buzz of the party. When that is gone, the "thing" is gone.

It's a serious problem at the moment, in my opinion.

[Peter99]

OVO is often an excuse for the dullards to get behind the decks and play the most unimaginative boring sets of dross made up of tunes they dreamed of owning when they were teens after their 3 trips to the casino and now they have their mortgage and divorce paid off they can afford a 200 count full of Wonky Northern and of course they want to DJ. And when they can't they set up their own Wonky night in a village hall.

An OVO policy, although very important to the fabric of everything that this "thing" is, should not be an excuse to allow dullards to undermine the most important thing, the excitement and the buzz of the party. When that is gone, the "thing" is gone.

It's a serious problem at the moment, in my opinion.

Sorry James, but which is the serious problem - dullards with their original vinyl or the so called heretics who play boots?

[Harry Crosby]

Hi Russ

The point i was trying to make was

1.If a certain tune was not booted or reissued in some format then people may never have heard about it thus would it survive within the N/S scene.

2. Would the same big ticket record still have the same valuation with only the few who knew about it or would it be worth less ?.

3. I thought anybody that has a love for this music should not be excluded from hearing or finding out who what or where a certain record came from and for the scene to grow so more people get to hear this great music.

Yes i do prefer OVO but would the scene be where it is today if it was not for the masses who tramp all over the UK and further every weekend without the knowledge gained by listening to each and every tune available be it a one off or million seller, or do we go underground again with a limited amount of venues per year.

cheers Ralph

Agreed here ralph, theres a good point there about the scene going underground again, i personally don`t think this could happen, due to the media of today, the only way we got to here of venues years ago was by word of mouth, by attending venues etc

[Guest James Trouble]

Sorry James, but which is the serious problem - dullards with their original vinyl or the so called heretics who play boots?

Dullards are the serious problem. They need stamping out, and just because the play OV doesn't give them an excuse.

In my rather humble opinion, of course.

Edited September 16, 2008 by James Trouble

[Peter99]

Dullards are the serious problem. They need stamping out, and just because the play OV doesn't give them an excuse.

In my rather humble opinion, of course.

And I, in my humble opinion, agree young Sir.

[chrissie]

Dullards are the serious problem. They need stamping out, and just because the play OV doesn't give them an excuse.

In my rather humble opinion, of course.

I find myself agreeing with you yet again James

QoFxx

[Davetay]

OVO is often an excuse for the dullards to get behind the decks and play the most unimaginative boring sets of dross made up of tunes they dreamed of owning when they were teens after their 3 trips to the casino and now they have their mortgage and divorce paid off they can afford a 200 count full of Wonky Northern and of course they want to DJ. And when they can't they set up their own Wonky night in a village hall.

An OVO policy, although very important to the fabric of everything that this "thing" is, should not be an excuse to allow dullards to undermine the most important thing, the excitement and the buzz of the party. When that is gone, the "thing" is gone.

It's a serious problem at the moment, in my opinion.

Watch out James, i might corner you on sat. to expain what a dullard is.

Dave.

[Epic]

Watch out James, i might corner you on sat. to expain what a dullard is.

Dave.

Weren't they the guys who sung "Get Out Of My Heart"

[Ian Dewhirst]

Dullards are the serious problem. They need stamping out, and just because the play OV doesn't give them an excuse.

In my rather humble opinion, of course.

Agreed! Can't remember how many venues I've stepped into, only to step out of again because of the mind-numbing boredom of what was being played, which I personally wouldn't want to listen to again anytime soon. I've then usually gone to a far musically different

alternative venue and at least seen some energy and a younger audience having fun!

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Weren't they the guys who sung "Get Out Of My Heart"

Time to get the coat Epic..........

Ian D

[Davetay]

here we go...an hours set of originals that can be purchased for probably less than an hours set of boots

mamie galore - it aint necessary - st lawrence

chuck jackson - good things - wand

j. j. barnes - please let me in - ric tic

mirettes - he's alright with me - mirwood

volumes - my kind of girl - inferno

companions - be yourself - g a

t.s.u. toronadoes - what good am i - atlantic

natural 4 - you cant keep running away - curtom

walter jenkins - back in my life - fader kat

deon jackson - i cant go on - carla

monclairs - wait for me - sunburst

creations - oh baby - globe

admirations - dont leave me - one-der-ful

betty everett - unlucky girl - uni

darrow fletcher - changing by the minute - uni

diane lewis - i thank you kindly - wand

superlatives - lonely in a crowd - dynamics / westbound

jimmy delphs - ive been fooled before - carla

betty lavette - only your love can save me - calla

greg perry - love control - chess

jive five - crying like a baby - musicor

george jackon - that lonely night - r.r. / cameo

thats just a few examples off the top of my head, theres loads of them out there & if you want to be a 70's dj then the worlds your lobster, theres thousands of cheap quality 45's to be had & more 70's albums with great tracks to be had for less than the price of a boot, so theres really no excuses

ive based the above list on records that can quite easily be found for £5 - £20, when you consider that boots are regularly changing hands on ebay for around fifty quid, then you could really up the ante,

Some nice cheapies on the list, but there are 15 that i used in my early sets and i have not done any DJing for 25 years.

[Davetay]

Weren't they the guys who sung "Get Out Of My Heart"

Nice one Andy

[Little-stevie]

LOL. I've NEVER seen a pair of technics @ a Northern gig!

I actually think more of an emphasis should be put on the equipment. It's just nuts to think that people entrust £5K rarities to most of the equipment I've seen being used on the Northern scene.

All this talk of OVO reminds me of being in Somerset at a party a couple of years back and in one of the marquees there was a guy playing 78rpm records on an original gramophone. Interesting bloke, in that he was partial to 1920's, 30's and 40's big band tunes but ONLY providing thery were the original 78's and ONLY if played on an original gramophone player (like the one used as the old HMV logo with the dog - remember).

It was good shooting the breeze with him. He was obviously an eccentric because he was dressed in top and tails for a Summer party and the wind-up gramaphone player wasn't very loud so he wasn't exactly at the epicentre of things. He obviously believed in what he was doing plus he was obviously a highly unique DJ so I bade him and his two companions a fond farewell and went to join the other 500 people mashing it up in the main marquees.

A bloke out of time. Touching but sad.

I'm kinda split on this whole OVO thing. When I was deejaying on the scene 35 odd years ago, any deejays who played bootlegs were considered 'C' listers. However there was still a huge local audience for 'C' listers 'cos the scene was much bigger. And there weren't that many bootlegs/reissues back then either.

But the scene is a lot smaller now and just seems to be fragmenting further with some areas almost disappearing up their own arses. Plus the standard of deejaying isn't tremendous in so much as most DJ's these days are essentially collectors first and foremost and thus have a very good reason for propogating OVO policies. Plus, as always, there is a certain amount of elitism/snobbery around concerning the value of most records played.

I'm wondering whether this scene is comparible to the Premier League, where anyone who gets a sudden injection of cash and has a modicum of decent taste can immediately propell themselves into the Top 5? In which case, is this OVO thing more about the money, then about people's tastes?

I think Northern Soul needs to propell itself into the future and right now it's not doing that. 'Format policing' and bad equipment doesn't exactly help the situation if the scene is to move forward. Right now the scene seems to be heading along the same lines as my guy in Somerset with the gramophone!

The fact that so much great undiscovered stuff is now turning up on CD and cannot be played because of the bias against anything other than vinyl is just plain ridiculous to me.

It's about the MUSIC full stop. If a mind-numbingly brilliant unreleased Bob Relf track suddenly appeared on CD only, are the OVO guys saying they won't play it simply because of the format it's on?

Ian D

As you said Ian "The fact that so much great undiscovered stuff is now turning up on CD and cannot be played because of the bias against anything other than vinyl is just plain ridiculous to me" and me too..

Most venues that i have played at don't tend to have a cd player.... with that in mind i put a cd only track on a carver to play out.. If any have a problem with that then please let me know.. ....

ps... Maybe there is a cd player at events i play at bit i have eyes only for the two decks and try and banish any thought of these new ideas ...

Now if the un-released track is a legal issue on vinyl at anytime in the future, does that make my carver taken from a cd a boot or the original vinyl Or was my carver from a cd always a boot????

Before you get the ovo sticker for venues, we are gonna have to decide what costitutes non original vinyl...

[Guest Paul]

What has this got to do with any part of the discsussion, where has rareity or exclusivity etc been mentioned, its debating the format of the NS scene, where have any of your points been mentioned previously.

This post is yet another of you saying how wonderful you are, what a great chap you are and how crap the NS is, and how everyone into Northern has no taste and just likes big rare records, a view you repeat almost as much as our beloved local soul nights play Frank Wilson, although your repetition is much more tiresome.

If you want to talk music get over the media thread, lots of NS people putting on good music, and there are hundreds of us that can talk about the music who played it etc, so stop implying otherwise, This thread had a point, deal with it, otherwise shut up with your tiresome self promoting views. Unless you have something relevant to say, say nothing.

I am really getting fed up with people like you just digging for no reason and completely ill informed digs. If you don't get Northern then good, lots more not to get than there is to get, but at least be factual with your put downs.

The current "scene" has lots of faults and lots of things that are worth laughing at and having a dig at, feel free to do this rather than tell us how you are the leatest, the greatest real soul lover in the world.

Self promotion??? I'm not promoting anything here, I'm expressing my opinion, which I'm entitled to do, just as you are too.

My posting wasn't about me at all, it was about the scene and how - in my opinion - some people focus more on rarity and exclusivity (i.e. oneupmanship) than they do on the actual music. I stand by every word I said and I think you need to read my posting again very carefully before you jump to any bizarre conclusions.

And don't suggest that I even implied that NS is "crap" (?) or that "everyone into Northern has no taste" (???) because I most certainly did not.

I really don't know where you're coming from at all.

Paul

[Little-stevie]

Watch out James, i might corner you on sat. to expain what a dullard is.

Dave.

Another word to add to the James Trouble dictionary ...

Maybe a seperate thread for "what or who is a Dullard"