O.v.o And C.r.&.p Venues

[Guest wrighty]

I would have thought that many of these records were really too valuable to be played on an assortment of decks which can only devalue them massively. And collectors and buyers put such a premium on the condition that I'm surprised people would actually risk playing a 5K rarity out on wildly differing equipment. They must be nuts. It's not much fun listening to 'em if they're beaten up or have 'styrene burn'.

Also, I'm noticing a few people now playing boots of their own rarities becuase they don't want to risk wearing out the originals. So if someone has an original Billy Woods on styrene and obviously doesn't want to risk ruining it so plays the bootleg instead, is that acceptable?

As one famous DJ from another 'Rare' scene told me, he doesn't spend £2K on a record to wear it out in a few months. He makes carvers of EVERY rarity he owns and keeps the originals at home.

But you'd seriously have to be stupid to be playing OVO rare oldies on a regular basis. To risk wrecking a Joe Mathews, Billy Woods or Mel Britt to different needles every week is either just plain stupid or a great way to depreciate both your financial and emotional investment by 50%!

on the first point ian, yeah granted you're risking your records every time you take them out to dj with - but surely if you are that worried about them you'd shell out a tiny percentage of their value on some brand new needles that you take with you every time you dj? as long as you're not constantly backcueing your 45's i see no reason why they shouldnt remain in top condition...only hitch might be the actual equipment used at northern venues tho and really, if you are getting paid decent money to dj people expect you to be playing your originals dont they? which leads me on to my next point, i've heard a fair few carvers played out (by other dj's i hasten to add) and my main beef with them is that they sound, er....shit now maybe these ones hadnt been mastered particularly well but even if they are in other cases i'd put money on them sounding inferior when compared with an original....the ones i heard sounded horribly flat and lifeless....so, to sum up - whats the point of em

[Pete S]

Does'nt it ever get boring , going over the same old C.R.A.P ??? You will find that if you ask MOST punters , the ones who dont collect or dj , that they dont give a toss what a paticular record is on , they just go to dance and have a good time. I dj and DO play OVO , but i have dj'd along side dj's playing boots and pressings ,and i really dont care , the floor is your guide and thats the only guide you need. I understand that its a big deal to some and each to there own ,but you wont change anything , the people who just go out for fun , will still go to the do's playing boots etc that will never change , we all know to a point which venues play which records and choose accordingly , but i would never not go somewhere just because someone played a couple of boots i find it very sad if that is how some choose there nights , to me its who will be there and ATMOSPHERE isnt that what its really about ?? thanks for reading enough waffle now , luv Di xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Well said Di.

I'd still like to know how anyone on a dance floor can tell the differnce between a pressing and an original - and do they give a toss anyway? No, they're dancing.

[Pete S]

on the first point ian, yeah granted you're risking your records every time you take them out to dj with - but surely if you are that worried about them you'd shell out a tiny percentage of their value on some brand new needles that you take with you every time you dj? as long as you're not constantly backcueing your 45's i see no reason why they shouldnt remain in top condition...only hitch might be the actual equipment used at northern venues tho and really, if you are getting paid decent money to dj people expect you to be playing your originals dont they? which leads me on to my next point, i've heard a fair few carvers played out (by other dj's i hasten to add) and my main beef with them is that they sound, er....shit now maybe these ones hadnt been mastered particularly well but even if they are in other cases i'd put money on them sounding inferior when compared with an original....the ones i heard sounded horribly flat and lifeless....so, to sum up - whats the point of em

I've had at least 40 carvers done for me and for others and I've never heard a bad one - well not one that was worse than the original source.

Also see Yum Yums topic - I put up a photo of the original then admitted I'd never taken it out of the house and always play the pressing. I'm not having some scrote nick my records.

[Epic]

on the first point ian, yeah granted you're risking your records every time you take them out to dj with - but surely if you are that worried about them you'd shell out a tiny percentage of their value on some brand new needles that you take with you every time you dj? as long as you're not constantly backcueing your 45's i see no reason why they shouldnt remain in top condition...only hitch might be the actual equipment used at northern venues tho and really, if you are getting paid decent money to dj people expect you to be playing your originals dont they? which leads me on to my next point, i've heard a fair few carvers played out (by other dj's i hasten to add) and my main beef with them is that they sound, er....shit now maybe these ones hadnt been mastered particularly well but even if they are in other cases i'd put money on them sounding inferior when compared with an original....the ones i heard sounded horribly flat and lifeless....so, to sum up - whats the point of em

I have said on here many times - carvers are bootlegs - no matter how many times anybody tries to justify the reason they are OK to play.

Best one is "I don't want to carry an LP around with me" - what total bo**ox is that!!

[Sebastian]

I've had at least 40 carvers done for me and for others and I've never heard a bad one - well not one that was worse than the original source.

We've had this discussion earlier and we obviously disagree. I have never heard a carver that sounds as good as the original source (or anywhere near it).

Have you actually compared them side by side? You can do a test like this: record the original 45 as a WAV to your computer, then without altering the volume or anything on your amplifier, record the carver of the same tune into the same WAV-file. That way you can easily compare if the levels are different - both as far as frequencies and volume goes.

[Simon M]

A question for maybe Chalky . How many of the tunes played at Lifeline ,by say Andy and Butch , have actually been Booted?

Edited September 15, 2008 by Simon M

[Guest wrighty]

I've had at least 40 carvers done for me and for others and I've never heard a bad one - well not one that was worse than the original source.

Also see Yum Yums topic - I put up a photo of the original then admitted I'd never taken it out of the house and always play the pressing. I'm not having some scrote nick my records.

i find it hard to believe that if you play a carver side by side with the original you wont hear a difference pete...sure they sound 'ok', but i'm saying not as good

[TOAD]

WHAT ABOUT CRAP -POO...PLAYED OUT OLDIES LOL

[Pete S]

i find it hard to believe that if you play a carver side by side with the original you wont hear a difference pete...sure they sound 'ok', but i'm saying not as good

Well put it like this: if I get anything done for myself, they are taken from a cd copy, which usually comes off a master tape. How is that going to be worse copy than a 40 year old second hand record?

[Guest wrighty]

Well put it like this: if I get anything done for myself, they are taken from a cd copy, which usually comes off a master tape. How is that going to be worse copy than a 40 year old second hand record?

ok, well mastertapes are maybe a different proposition altogether, i was talking about copying straight from a 45 where there surely has to be a drop in quality, and in the examples i mentioned was 100% definitely the case.

Edited September 15, 2008 by wrighty

[Guest MOLLY]

Not at all - think most people agree there are too many venues and too many DJs. Perhaps a cull of the bootleg players will bring a degree of stability?

Great thread Steve maybe people should venture out of their own County sometimes !

Best

Molly

[Sebastian]

Well put it like this: if I get anything done for myself, they are taken from a cd copy, which usually comes off a master tape. How is that going to be worse copy than a 40 year old second hand record?

The carvers are pressed with very low volume and a narrow frequency range - which reduces the sound quality. A carver is not an identical copy of the master source, they compromise the audio quality quite a bit.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Sebastian

[Pete S]

ok, well mastertapes are maybe a different proposition altogether, i was talking about copying straight from a 45 where there surely has to be a drop in quality, and in the examples i mentioned was 100% definitely the case.

Honestly, I've never had one thats worse than the original, in many cases they are better, especially when you get a stereo recording put into mono.

[Tricky]

OVO - Creative Soul Functions which at this moment in time is Silks in Wellingborough.

I would just like to concur with Mr G.THIS WHOLE SCENE IS BUILT AROUND ORIGINALS so don,t go telling me all of a sudden ITS OK TO PLAY ANYTHING!!!!!

Another observation as a collector.I did not buy my vinyl to make a profit on,its a billy bonus.Dj,s get paid and in theory that money goes towards new tunes.If a club has decent equipment the condition of the records should not change too much!

[Pete S]

OVO - Creative Soul Functions which at this moment in time is Silks in Wellingborough.

I would just like to concur with Mr G.THIS WHOLE SCENE IS BUILT AROUND ORIGINALS so don,t go telling me all of a sudden ITS OK TO PLAY ANYTHING!!!!!

Another observation as a collector.I did not buy my vinyl to make a profit on,its a billy bonus.Dj,s get paid and in theory that money goes towards new tunes.If a club has decent equipment the condition of the records should not change too much!

If you're talking about upfront venues, then yes, originals only. Local soul night in a village hall, who gives a toss, you're probably only going for a drink and a good time.

[Sebastian]

I've never had one thats worse than the original, in many cases they are better, especially when you get a stereo recording put into mono.

Have you done the test? Does your carvers have louder volume than the original 45s? Does your carvers have a better frequency range? This is very important stuff when DJing with records.

[Simon M]

If you're talking about upfront venues, then yes, originals only. Local soul night in a village hall, who gives a toss, you're probably only going for a drink and a good time.

Yep , some local gig's would probably be better served with a Laptop and access to soul-source refosoul alas the Belita Woods coverup is pretty low quality

[Pete S]

Have you done the test? Does your carvers have louder volume than the original 45s? Does your carvers have a better frequency range? This is very important stuff when DJing with records.

Not to me it isn't, I don't even know what you're talking about..frequency range?

[Guest ruffsounds]

There are some seriously rare tunes out there and thousands of people would have never heard them if they had not been repressed in some form or another and only the elite few would know about them J. D. Bryant. springs to mind, so would the valuation also be different the lesser amount of people knew about it or not.

Also you would have to find out who had these tunes and where they were djing to be able to listen to some of them thats if they actually bring the said records thus making the N/S scene seem smaller and elitist when i thought the N/S was about the appreciation of the music from the Artists/Writers/Producers of the music we all love as well as meeting like minded people who feel the same way, but having said that i do prefer my originals £10 or £10,000 if they are good enough then play them.

cheers Ralph

[Guest Andy Kempster]

HITCHIN 100% OVO

[Maark]

If you're talking about upfront venues, then yes, originals only. Local soul night in a village hall, who gives a toss, you're probably only going for a drink and a good time.

Those that are OVO state that on the flyers anyway? if it don't say OVO can one assume that boot's carvers etc are played? On that basis, people pays their money and take their choice.

Maybe there should be a OVO logo that people slap on their flyers, a bit like Abta, Corgi and the like?

At the end of the day, it's a (supposedly) free country and if I wanted to start up a night, in direct competition to someone 2 miles up the road and was just going to play cd's, then no one can stop me...... not that I would want to do such a thing, but it would be my freedom of the market to do so.

[Sebastian]

Not to me it isn't, I don't even know what you're talking about..frequency range?

Frequency range is the amount of "bass", "mid" and "high" frequencies on the recording. Carvers are generally very heavy on the "mid" frequencies, which results in a tinny sound. When DJing with a carver you have to crank up the "bass" and "hi" a lot on the mixer which usually results in feedback and poor sound reproduction.

If that's not important to you - for home listening or DJing - then you will not have a problem with carvers I guess. But that kind of stuff is important to a lot of people and to say that carvers sound better than the original source just because you don't care to actually compare them (or think that it's important to do such a thing) makes for slightly misleading information in my opinion.

[Guest rachel]

HITCHIN 100% OVO

Calm down

[Pete S]

Frequency range is the amount of "bass", "mid" and "high" frequencies on the recording. Carvers are generally very heavy on the "mid" frequencies, which results in a tinny sound. When DJing with a carver you have to crank up the "bass" and "hi" a lot on the mixer which usually results in feedback and poor sound reproduction.

If that's not important to you - for home listening or DJing - then you will not have a problem with carvers I guess. But that kind of stuff is important to a lot of people and to say that carvers sound better than the original source just because you don't care to actually compare them (or think that it's important to do such a thing) makes for slightly misleading information in my opinion.

Just telling you what I hear Sebastian. I have no complaints with carvers. When you play to 30 people in a working mens club you aren't that bothered about the ins and outs of the sound quality, you're more worried as to whether you've got a stylus!

[Dennisoul]

Dundee "Soul In The City" and Aberdeen "Real Deal"

Also Glasgow "Black Trackin", Edinburgh "Basics" and "Spiders Web".....all playin OVO

add these 5 to the list.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Dennisoul

[Sebastian]

Just telling you what I hear Sebastian. I have no complaints with carvers. When you play to 30 people in a working mens club you aren't that bothered about the ins and outs of the sound quality, you're more worried as to whether you've got a stylus!

I guess you're right. I usually DJ at venues with top quality sound systems and the drop in sound quality when a carver is played is noticeable.

[Guest fryer]

O.K i do a lot of mastering and in my experience carvers sounds awful compared to acetate, styrene and vinyl. Even with a great master what i have had back is very harsh in the mid range. Where they fool the casual listener is the fact there is good bass (not nearly as good as acetate or vinyl mind) and decent but slightly distorted top end. I have had ones from various different sources and none have been that brilliant. I would not play them in a set and would rather pay the extra 20 quid and get a proper acetate which sounds better than anything if done right or even play of a CD or Serato which would not suffer any sound quality loss.

Edited September 15, 2008 by fryer

[Guest Andy Kempster]

enthusiastic not angry

[Maark]

O.K i do a lot of mastering and in my experience carvers sounds awful compared to acetate, styrene and vinyl. Even with a great master what i have had back is very harsh in the mid range. Where they fool the casual listener is the fact there is good bass (not nearly as good as acetate or vinyl mind) and decent but slightly distorted top end. I have had ones from various different sources and none have been that brilliant. I would not play them in a set and would rather pay the extra 20 quid and get a proper acetate which sounds better than anything if done right or even play of a CD or Serato which would not suffer any sound quality loss.

But our hearing deteriorates with age as does every part of the body, so no two people would hear "exactly" the same thing anyway.

[sister dawn]

I PLAY OVO HERE AT THE EAST LINCOLN SOUL CLUB IN LINCOLN, NO CARVERS/MP3'S FOR ME

[Dylan]

I think if someone has made a couple of carvers of LP tracks so that they don't have to cart an LP box around - probably still OVO. I put a few of my cover ups on carvers - saves on sellotape and protects the original.

if the person playing the carver has the original in one format or another then it seems fine to me.

but if they don't then it becomes CR&P.

[Sebastian]

if the person playing the carver has the original in one format or another then it seems fine to me.

Why not put the entire playbox on a couple of CDs and play the tunes from those instead? The exact same thing in my opinion, just a different format.

[Epic]

I always thought OVO meant exactly that - not OVO but.................. I will tell you 101 reasons why there are exceptions!!

[Guest fryer]

But our hearing deteriorates with age as does every part of the body, so no two people would hear "exactly" the same thing anyway.

That's not entirely true, the earls like many other parts of the body increase their ability with use, so if you listen to music and are very good at picking out individual instruments your hearing can actually improve over time as your brain becomes more skilled at listening. As you physical hearing deteriorates you can compensate (up to a point of coarse) by using your ears alot listening for detail, like a muscle it improves with use. There are plenty older folk with better hearing then young folk as they have looked after there hearing and use there ears for detailed work.

[Pete S]

Why not put the entire playbox on a couple of CDs and play the tunes from those instead? The exact same thing in my opinion, just a different format.

A carver is still a 7" record which be held and looked at and loved. A cd is a bit of silver cack.

[Epic]

A carver is still a 7" record which be held and looked at and loved. A cd is a bit of silver cack.

This thread is one singing the praises of original vinyl.

CDs & carvers are not original vinyl.

[Sebastian]

A carver is still a 7" record which be held and looked at and loved. A cd is a bit of silver cack.

What format anyone on here prefers is not what's up for discussion. It's about whether you should play original vinyl only or not.

I fail to see how a carver of a record you've got at home remains an original in a way that some tracks on a CD (recorded from the original 45s that you've got at home) does not?

[Stubbsy]

Thread for listing venues that play:

Original Vinyl Only (OVO)

The one you dj'd at Saturday night

South Essex Soul Club - Capones

[Roger Williams]

if the person playing the carver has the original in one format or another then it seems fine to me.

but if they don't then it becomes CR&P.

How will you know if they have the original? Will they have to bring it along with them to prove it to the people who might ask about it?

[Stubbsy]

A salutary lesson for people who hammer their OV, would be the other week where a famous name DJ had to have his records valued for legal reasons. Condition was marked out of 10 and he was averaging around 5-6 out of 10 on most of his top tunes. In real terms, this meant that his £200K book price of the records was reduced to circa £100-120K because of the relatively poor condition of most of them! This is because he is an OVO DJ and wears his records on his sleeve.

Ian D

Ian,

If he was having them valued in the course of divorce proceedings I'd have thought that he would have been quite happy with the above outcome

[Guest]

I notice the people replying on here are mostly collectors and dj's , WHY ??? coz the true dancers wont waste there time getting involved BECAUSE THEY DONT CARE

[Guest]

How will you know if they have the original? Will they have to bring it along with them to prove it to the people who might ask about it?

Roger,

What about modern do's should they be original download only?

Derek

[Roger Williams]

I fail to see how a carver of a record you've got at home remains an original in a way that some tracks on a CD (recorded from the original 45s that you've got at home) does not?

It doesn't, that's why Seb - the concept of recording to carver or CDR is identical, a copy is a copy and in effect a carver is a vinyl CDR regardless how some might try and justify breaking their own self imposed laws to suit.

A debate without end, that's for certain!!

[Steve G]

Ian,

If he was having them valued in the course of divorce proceedings I'd have thought that he would have been quite happy with the above outcome

[Steve G]

Roger,

What about modern do's should they be original download only?

Derek

We're talking northern venues Derek. Modern CD's should be compulsory fare.

[Roger Williams]

Roger,

What about modern do's should they be original download only?

Derek

I'd walk out in disgust and complain to the promoter if they weren't!!

[Steve G]

So if I see a load of miserable looking f*ckers wearing bowler hats, red carnation and ties, dragging hapless dj's from thier Northants beds and culling them to death in the street, I can assume this is the soul police?

I don't really look like that Mark. Will post my train avatar back up.

[Pete S]

I fail to see how a carver of a record you've got at home remains an original

I didn't say it was an original, I said it was a RECORD.

[Roger Williams]

We're talking northern venues Derek. Modern CD's should be compulsory fare.

Ahhh, but what if a new track is only released in download format Steve, as is happening a lot now? Do we simply not play it because it's not in original CD format?

[Guest]

We're talking northern venues Derek. Modern CD's should be compulsory fare.

I think for Northern venues the BIGGER problem is too many average (at best) Dj's - no imagination - shit scared to take a chance.

Derek