O.v.o And C.r.&.p Venues

[Sean Hampsey]

I know you're only qualifying this question for the purposes of the argument but I think you and I would agree that Biffo can play his 45 wherever he wants and with no regard to who or who may not have it on OVO.

The artist etc got paid. End of.

Precisley Rod.

Thank you.

[Guest Simon]

A lot of valid points on this thread from several peeps, at the end of the day though this could run & run.

I really do think it depends where you're playing, if it's a real deal NS club then i think people really should try to make the effort to play the proper stuff (OVO), if it's down yer local or at an across the board night that isn't full of collectors & people are just out for a bit of fun then imo it doesn't matter so much.

Bootlegs are obviously illegal so shouldn't be played although i'm sure most of us have done this at some time or other if we're all being absolutely honest with ourselves.

Some of the re-issues are really nicely done with great sound quality, i'd personally not be overly bothered if someone played one because at least it shows they have a bit of taste.

At the end of the day though there's still plenty of fabulous cheap originals out there, i've just acquired Fontella Bass 'I can't rest' for a tenner as an example (thankyou Mr Williams!).

There's a worse crime than playing re-issues/boots/cds etc imo & that's playing sets without passion, originality or Soul.

Simon

[chrissie]

i've just acquired Fontella Bass 'I can't rest' for a tenner as an example (thankyou Mr Williams!).

Simon

Think I paid less than that for mine earlier in the year, just proves quality doesn't have to be expensive and I think it was in the 2008 MP top 100, play it out quite often

QoFxx

[Chalky]

Hi Chalky,

Biffo at the local is hardly likely to be warming up for a guy with Percy & Eddie in his box, but if that were the case then the second guy might need to dig a little deeper.

Most people can only get 20 records off in a set (10 if he uses 12" ). So what happened to the trusty 200 box? And Hey... he's got Percy & Eddie in there... he 'must' have loads more goodies too?

Besides... as Marc said above... surely these particular tracks should be dropped from the other DJ's set now they've been issued.

No?

Sean

It does happen Sean......

I was at a venue some years ago near Kettering, the Ritz place, forget the town, Mick H waiting to Dj and the one on before him was playing Bobby Rich (I Think) Girl Somewhere off Grapevine issue. Mick had got the Bobby Rich in his play box, pulled out ready to play actually when on came the grapevine copy. He wasn't too pleased, rightly so IMHO.

So the top DJ's booked for the records they spend 100's and 1000's of pounds on have to shrug their shoulders and dig a little deeper in their box whilst Biffo plays a set of Grapevine 2000 records? Why book the top DJ's in the first place???

Hope you're well btw mate?

Edited September 22, 2008 by chalky

[Sean Hampsey]

I regularly play original UK releases when it's right to do so - obviously not at upfront venues but oldies nights - Blue Skies in particular sees me with some tasty British stuff - Action, Stateside, Liberty, HMV etc. I really enjoy playing that stuff too, authentic particuilarly in a pub back room type venue - as those UK things are where the scene started before the imports came in from the end of the 60s

Original (first time) UK Releases of US Soul records, Steve?

The Action label was around big style when I was a youngst.

I proudly boasted the complete set as a teenager.

Some fabulous records came out on the label.

I played 'em all down at my local. Eddie Holman, Norman Johnson, Carl Carlton, Dee Dee Sharp, Eddie Holman... even Bobby Marchan!

But you can see where this is leading can't you?

I was no different to Biffo (IMO).

Who am I to tell Biffo what he can and cannot play?

Personally, I'm just glad he's into Soul Music.

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

It does happen Sean......

I was at a venue some years ago near Kettering, the Ritz place, forget the town, Mick H waiting to Dj and the one on before him was playing Bobby Rich (I Think) Girl Somewhere off Grapevine issue. Mick had got the Bobby Rich in his play box, pulled out ready to play actually when on came the grapevine copy. He wasn't too pleased, rightly so IMHO.

So the top DJ's booked for the records they spend 100's and 1000's of pounds on have to shrug their shoulders and dig a little deeper in their box whilst Biffo plays a set of Grapevine 2000 records? Why book the top DJ's in the first place???

Hope you're well btw mate?

I'm really well mate, thanks

I get your point, honest I do, but if someone before me plays something (on whatever label) I've got sitting in my box on an original label then so what, that's an opportunity the way I see it... cos I'm ready with a couple of hundred more!

Of course, you book the Top DJ's for a lot of reasons, amongst them should be creativity and originality (as Marc said earlier)!

To me, it's always been about raising the game... and certainly not dumbing it down!

By all means, the Top DJ's should play the best stuff they can get their hands on - that's what makes them the Top DJ's... But I find it hard to believe that a real Pro would feel seriously threatened by Biffo and his Birthday box.

Sean

[Simon M]

I was at a venue some years ago near Kettering, the Ritz place, forget the town, Mick H waiting to Dj and the one on before him was playing Bobby Rich (I Think) Girl Somewhere off Grapevine issue. Mick had got the Bobby Rich in his play box, pulled out ready to play actually when on came the grapevine copy. He wasn't too pleased, rightly so IMHO.

Chalky Bobby Rich turned up at Soul Bowl 1987ish . Graham Ellis had one and I turned one down

So thats a long time ago . I'd say with that 45 , it is time to put it back on the shelf .

Simon

ps. also add the fact that its on grapevine now !!

Edited September 22, 2008 by Simon M

[Guest realsoulfan]

I've not read the full thread but does this mean in the future at some venues the actual disc that is being played will be projected onto a wall or ceiling so everyone can see that it is a original ?

[Steve G]

I've not read the full thread but does this mean in the future at some venues the actual disc that is being played will be projected onto a wall or ceiling so everyone can see that it is a original ?

Has been done in the past and it's actually quite hypnotic seeing them records going round.

[Simon M]

I regularly play original UK releases when it's right to do so - obviously not at upfront venues but oldies nights - Blue Skies in particular sees me with some tasty British stuff - Action, Stateside, Liberty, HMV etc. I really enjoy playing that stuff too, authentic particuilarly in a pub back room type venue - as those UK things are where the scene started before the imports came in from the end of the 60s

I dont understand that , sorry Steve . Why not play some of your fresher stuff every chance you get .

Is it because you feel your UK stuff has been neglected for deejay purposes ?

[Pete Eccles]

I'm really well mate, thanks

I get your point, honest I do, but if someone before me plays something (on whatever label) I've got sitting in my box on an original label then so what, that's an opportunity the way I see it... cos I'm ready with a couple of hundred more!

Of course, you book the Top DJ's for a lot of reasons, amongst them should be creativity and originality (as Marc said earlier)!

To me, it's always been about raising the game... and certainly not dumbing it down!

By all means, the Top DJ's should play the best stuff they can get their hands on - that's what makes them the Top DJ's... But I find it hard to believe that a real Pro would feel seriously threatened by Biffo and his Birthday box.

Sean

Sean i remember a few years back at a popular local soul night anniversary. biffo the reident was on just before the named guest, played virtually all his set off one CD, track after track of the at the time soul night biggies, all of which were in the guest DJs box,

At the end of Biffo's set he removed the CD from the drawer to proudly show it to the guest DJ as it had a picture of his family super imposed on the disc Guest DJ smiled shrugged his shoulders and got on with it,

[Steve G]

I dont understand that , sorry Steve . Why not play some of your fresher stuff every chance you get .

Is it because you feel your UK stuff has been neglected for deejay purposes ?

In a word Yes.

Just makes a pleasant change,

Edited September 22, 2008 by Steve G

[Simon M]

In a word Yes.

Just makes a pleasant change,

But your still getting great records from John ..Its time to force em on these mamsey pamsey bores !!

Oh and Sean Hamsey too

Edited September 22, 2008 by Simon M

[Chalky]

Chalky Bobby Rich turned up at Soul Bowl 1987ish . Graham Ellis had one and I turned one down

So thats a long time ago . I'd say with that 45 , it is time to put it back on the shelf .

Simon

ps. also add the fact that its on grapevine now !!

Turned up? How many, led to believe just a small handful of copies???? I've got it on tape from '87, 100 Club...Ian Clark I think the DJ. Irrespective of when it was first played, it still sells or sold for a 4 figure sum. If I was going to play an original and Biffo played the grapevine press I don't think I'd be happy.

There's plenty of records that have been about years that want putting back on the shelf. Don't hear Bobby Rich nowhere near as much as say Joseph Webster, Hamilton Movement blah blah blah........Bobby Rich was simply used for the sake of the arguement/debate.

[chrissie]

But your still getting great records from John ..Its time to force em on these mamsey pamsey bores !!

Oh and Sean Hamsey too

Steve can play what he likes where he likes, he has diverse enough collection to be able to do so and just because you prefer modern he doesn't have to play that everywhere he DJs and is not sellng his (modern) soul by playing 60s and when he does play modern I assume you aren't the only person there so he doesn't have to play just what Simon wants.

Steve has a love of modern and probably a collection that many modern DJs would sell their grandmother for, he can also put an amazing 60s set together which is what he does for us at Blue Skies because, hey what, its a 60s night..................seems to make sense me thinks my little disco bunny.

As for your constant jib at MP its getting a little boring, the term was started as a bit of a joke and if you don't like 60s female power tunes then fine, I don't like disco but I don't keep slagging it off, maybe the odd dig in fun but you are begining to sound like a broken record, if you get my meaining.

This thread is about the playing of OVO whether it be 60s, Modern or even MP not about your opinion of what I play and collect or more so what Steve plays.

I have a limited budget and can't afford to collect a wide range so have concentrated on a niche and that suits me and happens to be my biggest love, 60s power female vocals, and guess what...........you don't have to listen to it.

Lets get back on topic. Which venues play OVO and which venues do waver this.

QoFxx

[soulAdequateNP]

(snip)A previous poster was lumping Re-Issues and Bootlegs together. Now that can't be right can it? (because Re-Issues are Legal whereas Bootlegs are not) and as it's your thread (the thread starter) I was asking for clarification on how you saw it, because its easy to see how one might think that they were one and the same if banded together in this way... and I'm getting a bit weary being a lone voice on this!

Totally agree that lumping reissues and bootlegs together is not only wrong but potentially harmful in that if punters start to see Kent/Grapevine/Goldmine etc as no better than bootlegs they'll just go for the cheaper knock-off-nigel option rather than supporting the hard work of the reissue labels, leading to fewer sales = fewer issues = music doesn't get heard etc and so forth. I know a number of people involved directly in the reissue biz are on here and I'd be interested to hear their thoughts as to whether this has an impact already?

By the way, at the last venue I was on at one of the DJs on before me played a Kent reissue of a tune that I have a rather expensive original of in my box - guess how I reacted?

I DANCED TO IT

[Simon M]

Turned up? How many, led to believe just a small handful of copies???? I've got it on tape from '87, 100 Club...Ian Clark I think the DJ. Irrespective of when it was first played, it still sells or sold for a 4 figure sum. If I was going to play an original and Biffo played the grapevine press I don't think I'd be happy.

There's plenty of records that have been about years that want putting back on the shelf. Don't hear Bobby Rich nowhere near as much as say Joseph Webster, Hamilton Movement blah blah blah........Bobby Rich was simply used for the sake of the arguement/debate.

Yeah a handful turned up , 87ish . Sam also turned one down , and he still remembers it to this day .

and yes certainly more records need a rest from playlists

Edited September 22, 2008 by Simon M

[Simon M]

Steve can play what he likes where he likes, he has diverse enough collection to be able to do so and just because you prefer modern he doesn't have to play that everywhere he DJs and is not sellng his (modern) soul by playing 60s and when he does play modern I assume you aren't the only person there so he doesn't have to play just what Simon wants.

Steve has a love of modern and probably a collection that many modern DJs would sell their grandmother for, he can also put an amazing 60s set together which is what he does for us at Blue Skies because, hey what, its a 60s night..................seems to make sense me thinks my little disco bunny.

As for your constant jib at MP its getting a little boring, the term was started as a bit of a joke and if you don't like 60s female power tunes then fine, I don't like disco but I don't keep slagging it off, maybe the odd dig in fun but you are begining to sound like a broken record, if you get my meaining.

This thread is about the playing of OVO whether it be 60s, Modern or even MP not about your opinion of what I play and collect or more so what Steve plays.

I have a limited budget and can't afford to collect a wide range so have concentrated on a niche and that suits me and happens to be my biggest love, 60s power female vocals, and guess what...........you don't have to listen to it.

Lets get back on topic. Which venues play OVO and which venues do waver this.

QoFxx

Ive not mentioned anything about modern !! and we did drift into Dullards/Dj Lazy thanks to Rod Shard

whose points are valid

Edited September 22, 2008 by Simon M

[chrissie]

Ive not mentioned anything about modern !! and we did drift into Dullards thanks to Rod Shard

whose points are valid

So are you saying that everyone who likes something different from you are Dullards, whether what they play is OVO or not? This thread isn't about peoples taste in music but about the format it is played on.

Very sweeping statement Simon

QoFxx

Edited September 22, 2008 by chrissie

[Simon M]

So are you saying that everyone who likes something different from you are Dullards, whether what they play is OVO or not? This thread isn't about peoples taste in music but about the format it is played on.

Very sweeping statement Simon

QoFxx

No Ive made no such statments . People who like the same old, same old ,would be classed as Dullards , re: this thread .

[chrissie]

No Ive made no such statments . People who like the same old, same old ,would be classed as Dullards , re: this thread .

So people who like 60s are dullards then

QoFxx

[Sean Hampsey]

But your still getting great records from John ..Its time to force em on these mamsey pamsey bores !!

Oh and Sean Hamsey too

See you're still getting your Mamsey Pamsey and Hamsey and Hampsey mixed up mate.

The Hamsey copy is a counterfeit!

So please stop taking the 'P' out of Hampsey!

[Sean Hampsey]

Totally agree that lumping reissues and bootlegs together is not only wrong but potentially harmful in that if punters start to see Kent/Grapevine/Goldmine etc as no better than bootlegs they'll just go for the cheaper knock-off-nigel option rather than supporting the hard work of the reissue labels, leading to fewer sales = fewer issues = music doesn't get heard etc and so forth. I know a number of people involved directly in the reissue biz are on here and I'd be interested to hear their thoughts as to whether this has an impact already?

By the way, at the last venue I was on at one of the DJs on before me played a Kent reissue of a tune that I have a rather expensive original of in my box - guess how I reacted?

I DANCED TO IT

You Danced to it?

Fair play to you Neil.

Think you've hit the nail squarely on the head and I thank you for taking the time to explain in one post what it's taken me several pages to complicate.

As you have so succinctly stated, the main reason Legal Reissues should not be lumped into the Bad Boy Bootleg Box is because............. Legal Reissues act as a means of deterring illegal Bootlegs by meeting a demand... which would otherwise be provided by the Bootleggers.

That way - at least the artist, publisher etc gets some (financial) recognition for their works.

With this firmly in mind, the Re-issue labels should be actively supported and encouraged, not disparaged as we've seen so often on here.

I'm just surprised it's taken so long to get to the right answer.

Sean

PS: Agreed Neil. I would also be interested in the views of some of those in the reissue business. Certainly our late friend, Dave Godin would have encouraged their endeavors.

[Quinvy]

Definately agree with you that on a 'world scale' the Northern Soul Scene isn't really that important. Also agree that we 'used to do things properly' and that fings aint what they used to be in some areas of life! But I don't really see how a DJ playing a legitimate re-issue is in any way a recent 'dumbing down' on the scene. The practice has gone on for the past 40 years and (until recently) nobody ever tarred re-issues with the same brush as Pirate / Bootleg copies. There's simply no comparison.

First time we heard the Showstoppers "Ain't Nothing But A Houseparty"... did we rush to the decks to see if it was on Partytime, Showtime, Beacon, Yellow / Red & White / Green?

Nah, we just danced our rocks off!

To be honest, I think the real 'dumbing down' is often in the standard of what's played rather than in the colour of the label, Phil.

Sean

Just thinking about this whole debate, I suddenly realised....don't hang the DJ, hang the bloody bootleggers... ....there wouldn't be a debate if it weren't for them.....

Another point that has been raised before on the re-issue subject is, how many so called legit re-issues, aren't? How the hell would anyone know? It's a minefield.....and this topic will never be resolved....I can understand your concerns Sean. Once you get into playing new releases, it's a whole different ballgame, but as my taste doesn't really [appart from the odd track] appreciate "modern soul" I haven't come accross the need to play off the dreaded shiny disc..

Phil.

[Quinvy]

Hello Phil,

I am assuming your opening line is reffering to my comments,

When i say lifes too short, or it's not important i am not comparing it to terminal illnesses or world atrocities or the like, i am merely stating that my life is too short to be getting stressed over something that's always been there, always will be there, and all the screams of discontent about it are not gonna get rid of it, i further added what i like to do which is play ovo, no hidden agendas whatsoever,

Give it another 6 months (maybe less) and there will be another multiple page thread on here covering much the same topic, and on it goes for eternity, with ZERO changing,

So IMHO i reckon (for me personally) it's better to enjoy what i enjoy, not get too hung up about stuff i can't change,what's the point? and let everyone else enjoy what they enjoy,

All just IMHO

Sorry Pete, I missed this post.....and no, not really just replying to you. Quite a few others defending the play owt DJ's....I know I'll never change the way it is...but this is a forum, and I'm a grumpy old man... ...what can you do....

Phil.

[Sean Hampsey]

Just thinking about this whole debate, I suddenly realised....don't hang the DJ, hang the bloody bootleggers... ....there wouldn't be a debate if it weren't for them.....

Another point that has been raised before on the re-issue subject is, how many so called legit re-issues, aren't? How the hell would anyone know? It's a minefield.....and this topic will never be resolved....I can understand your concerns Sean. Once you get into playing new releases, it's a whole different ballgame, but as my taste doesn't really [appart from the odd track] appreciate "modern soul" I haven't come accross the need to play off the dreaded shiny disc..

Phil.

With you on the Bootleggers, Phil!

But as you've pointed out - a lot of what some of you guys now call Rare or Northern Soul... I played as New Releases!

However, I'm saving the legalisation and complete acceptance of the said 'shiny disc' until later in the week!

Classy response mate. Very impressed.

Sean

[Modernsoulsucks]

Just like to point out that I haven't used the term "Dullard" to describe anybody. I think that was Mr Trouble. Im pretty much live and let live on this issue although I am a bit disappointed with some of the defenders of OVO whom I consider to be too dogmatic defending an orthodoxy that has been subject to change down through the years, especially as regards the playing of legit re-issues.

ROD

Edited September 23, 2008 by modernsoulsucks

[Guest]

Just like to point out that I haven't used the term "Dullard" to describe anybody. I think that was Mr Trouble. Im pretty much live and let live on this issue although I am a bit disappointed with some of the defenders of OVO whom I consider to be too dogmatic defending an orthodoxy that has been subject to change down through the years, especially as regards the playing of legit re-issues.

ROD

Ligit re-issued stuff would have never been re-issued if the OVO DJs had not made these tunes MASSIVE in the first place ?

(aside from the unreleased bits, which are originals anyway IMO)

Edited September 23, 2008 by mossy

[Jez Jones]

Original (first time) UK Releases of US Soul records, Steve?

The Action label was around big style when I was a youngst.

I proudly boasted the complete set as a teenager.

Some fabulous records came out on the label.

I played 'em all down at my local. Eddie Holman, Norman Johnson, Carl Carlton, Dee Dee Sharp, Eddie Holman... even Bobby Marchan!

But you can see where this is leading can't you?

I was no different to Biffo (IMO).

Who am I to tell Biffo what he can and cannot play?

Personally, I'm just glad he's into Soul Music.

Sean

Point well made there Sean. UK first originals were played out a lot in the early days of the scene and not frowned upon' I'm talking here before the 'crate diggers' (late sixties). Also same with Soul City releases. In my recollection if you had a tidy collection of Soul City stuff it was quite a big deal then and they would be bought and sold quite openly in sales boxes along side the 'big hitters'

[Jez Jones]

I think you've read me right there, Jez. In fact you've amplified it for me in that you're spot on with the observation that we didn't care that the local soul dj was playing the odd boot and re-issue of previously big tunes but would you agree that we would have been bothered if the bigger dj's at the Torch or Junction had continued to play those same tunes on original after they'd become available to the rest of us.

Now judging from certain comments the situation is reversed in that the local dj's are getting hammered for playing boots and yet it's alright for big name dj's to continue playing originals long after what would have been their sell-by-date back then.

Im not saying either of those scenarios are the "true path" but maybe pointing out that there is no one orthodoxy immutable from the beginning of the scene.

ROD

Yes yes I agree on what you are saying---in fact it was because those said dj's at torch,junction or wherever stopped playing them when they became for want of a better phrase up for 'public consumption' that stopped them becoming played out oldies at the time.

I suppose that is where the 'underplayed/rarely heard stuff from today originates from. Am just pondering then on that. records such as for eg Leroy taylor...... Oh linda if it was continually played once it became easily available' could have been a played out well worn oldie in 1972!!!!!!!!!!!!

That sell by date comment you make is interesting in the fact that nowadays what is seen as 'acceptable' time for a mega rare record to be played out. I haven't a clue. Is it 3, 6, 9 months or until the punters get sick of it or can you still play it out cos its like a dj's signature tune. I really don't know. records back in the day would have a shelf life of what 3months max?

[Steve G]

That sell by date comment you make is interesting in the fact that nowadays what is seen as 'acceptable' time for a mega rare record to be played out. I haven't a clue. Is it 3, 6, 9 months or until the punters get sick of it or can you still play it out cos its like a dj's signature tune. I really don't know. records back in the day would have a shelf life of what 3months max?

Some of the big name rarities go for 10 years.

[Spacehopper]

Think I paid less than that for mine earlier in the year, just proves quality doesn't have to be expensive and I think it was in the 2008 MP top 100, play it out quite often

QoFxx

also paid about a tenner and have been playing this all year..a go go fave in bristol....cannot believe more people have not been playing ,this pure quality...great lyrics,melodies ,production the lot....

to be honest surprised this thread is still going !.....only skimmed through the last few pages but whats this about original uk issues not being allowed ??....i understand the bootleg,carver and reissue arguement even on the well pressed maybe even unissued grapevine etc but come on theres f*** all wrong with original 60s released uk soul !....i personally collect us but 2 of the go go djs are uk collecters and trust me they have some beautiful records which are pressed and sound a lot better than a lot of us stuff !... and more expensive !!

[Steve G]

Just thinking about this whole debate, I suddenly realised....don't hang the DJ, hang the bloody bootleggers... ....there wouldn't be a debate if it weren't for them.....

Well...except the DJs aren't forced to play bootlegs Phil. They've always been around and many good DJs haven't found it "neccesary" to programme them in their sets. DJ integrity comes into the equation too.

On that point a lot of OV DJ's that I know on here are keeping the heads beneath the parapet and not contributing.

[Simon M]

So people who like 60s are dullards then

QoFxx

No !

[Wiganer1]

Ligit re-issued stuff would have never been re-issued if the OVO DJs had not made these tunes MASSIVE in the first place ?

====

fair point!

[Sean Hampsey]

Ligit re-issued stuff would have never been re-issued if the OVO DJs had not made these tunes MASSIVE in the first place ?

Exactly!

To me that's part of his role.

DJ plays record - record becomes popular - demand is created - demand is satisfied - artist gets paid.

That's how it works!

Sean

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ligit re-issued stuff would have never been re-issued if the OVO DJs had not made these tunes MASSIVE in the first place ?

(aside from the unreleased bits, which are originals anyway IMO)

Not always true. I remember the bootleg of Richard Temple's "Let's Do The Duck" (aka "The Duck" - Willie Hutch) being on the streets long before the record had broken. I believe there was only the one acetate which Russ had, hence the record had no time to break legitimately before the bootlegs arrived.

In fact, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure there was no OV of "The Duck" in the UK before the bootlegs came in!

There was a period of bootleg mania in the early 70's virtually all through Selectadisc in Nottingham. It wouldn't be uncommon for the bootlegs to come in and for us to say, "why the hell did they boot THAT so quickly"? "You Can't Tell The Good Guys From The Bad" - Patience Valentine (aka "Good Guys" - Edie Walker) and "You Don't Love Me" - Moses Smith (aka Epitome Of Sound) are two more examples of records which were bootlegged far too early. This is because Simon was paid per title, so the more boots he did, the more dosh he made.

That also explains the ridiculousness of the bootleg of Lou Courtney's "Me And You Doing The Boogaloo" which to my knowledge wasn't being played by ANYONE prior to it arriving as a boot. To this day I still don't understand why this was booted. My only explanation is that Simon was running out of new titles hence he started 'inventing' new boots.

Ian D

Edited September 23, 2008 by Ian Dewhirst

[Wiganer1]

Not always true. I remember the bootleg of Richard Temple's "Let's Do The Duck" (aka "The Duck" - Willie Hutch) being on the streets long before the record had broken. I believe there was only the one acetate which Russ had, hence the record had no time to break legitimately before the bootlegs arrived.

In fact, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure there was no OV of "The Duck" in the UK before the bootlegs came in!

There was a period of bootleg mania in the early 70's virtually all through Selectadisc in Nottingham. It wouldn't be uncommon for the bootlegs to come in and for us to say, "why the hell did they boot THAT so quickly"? "You Can't Tell The Good Guys From The Bad" - Patience Valentine (aka "Good Guys" - Edie Walker) and "You Don't Love Me" - Moses Smith (aka Epitome Of Sound) are two more examples of records which were bootlegged far too early. This is because Simon was paid per title, so the more boots he did, the more dosh he made.

That also explains the ridiculousness of the bootleg of Lou Courtney's "Me And You Doing The Boogaloo" which to my knowledge wasn't being played by ANYONE prior to it arriving as a boot. To this day I still don't understand why this was booted. My only explanation is that Simon was running out of new titles hence he started 'inventing' new boots.

Ian D

====

great story - love reading about things like this!

[Sean Hampsey]

Not always true. I remember the bootleg of Richard Temple's "Let's Do The Duck" (aka "The Duck" - Willie Hutch) being on the streets long before the record had broken. I believe there was only the one acetate which Russ had, hence the record had no time to break legitimately before the bootlegs arrived.

In fact, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure there was no OV of "The Duck" in the UK before the bootlegs came in!

There was a period of bootleg mania in the early 70's virtually all through Selectadisc in Nottingham. It wouldn't be uncommon for the bootlegs to come in and for us to say, "why the hell did they boot THAT so quickly"? "You Can't Tell The Good Guys From The Bad" - Patience Valentine (aka "Good Guys" - Edie Walker) and "You Don't Love Me" - Moses Smith (aka Epitome Of Sound) are two more examples of records which were bootlegged far too early. This is because Simon was paid per title, so the more boots he did, the more dosh he made.

That also explains the ridiculousness of the bootleg of Lou Courtney's "Me And You Doing The Boogaloo" which to my knowledge wasn't being played by ANYONE prior to it arriving as a boot. To this day I still don't understand why this was booted. My only explanation is that Simon was running out of new titles hence he started 'inventing' new boots.

Ian D

Ian, Mossy was on about legit Re-Issues not Bootlegs.

FFS don't you start getting them confused!

Sean

[Ian Dewhirst]

====

great story - love reading about things like this!

It's easy when you have a willing audience like your good self Mark!

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian, Mossy was on about legit Re-Issues not Bootlegs.

FFS don't you start getting them confused!

Sean

LOL, fair enough!

In that case can anyone explain the deal with The Contours "Baby Hit And Run" then?

An old recording which had never been heard by anyone and which was a pure 100% Northern monster which was issued in the UK on Motown without ANY OVO or Northern Soul related activity whatsoever!

Or is this the exception which proves the rule?

Ian D

Edited September 23, 2008 by Ian Dewhirst

[Wiganer1]

It's easy when you have a willing audience like your good self Mark!

Ian D

==

its a good job we dont meet at a venue mate - i wed chew each others ears off!!!

lol

[Ian Dewhirst]

==

its a good job we dont meet at a venue mate - i wed chew each others ears off!!!

lol

We almost did I seem to remember. Levine's thingy in Ealing wasn't it?

Next time say hello!

Ian D

[Little-stevie]

Just thinking about this whole debate, I suddenly realised....don't hang the DJ, hang the bloody bootleggers... ....there wouldn't be a debate if it weren't for them.....

Another point that has been raised before on the re-issue subject is, how many so called legit re-issues, aren't? How the hell would anyone know? It's a minefield.....and this topic will never be resolved....I can understand your concerns Sean. Once you get into playing new releases, it's a whole different ballgame, but as my taste doesn't really [appart from the odd track] appreciate "modern soul" I haven't come accross the need to play off the dreaded shiny disc..

Phil.

Where do all the boot-leggs come from, is from a few sources or are many people knocking them out??? Is it a uk thing or do they come from America/Europe????

[Wiganer1]

We almost did I seem to remember. Levine's thingy in Ealing wasn't it?

Next time say hello!

Ian D

===

will do mate!

[Ian Dewhirst]

Where do all the boot-leggs come from, is from a few sources or are many people knocking them out??? Is it a uk thing or do they come from America/Europe????

They've always come from everywhere as far as I know. The first boots I ever saw were the Soul Sounds ones which were UK based, then came the Selectadisc years via Simon Soussan which were via the U.S., Jimmy Thomas on TB Super Soul (Tony Banks) then Out Of The Past via Chris Burton etc, etc, etc....

It's always gone on and looks like it always will to be honest.

Ian D

Edited September 23, 2008 by Ian Dewhirst

[Jez Jones]

They've always come from everywhere as far as I know. The first boots I ever saw were the Soul Sounds ones which were UK based, then came the Selectadisc years via Simon Soussan which were via the U.S., Jimmy Thomas on TB Super Soul (Tony Banks) then Out Of The Past via Chris Burton etc, etc, etc....

It's always gone on and looks like it always will to be honest.

Ian D

hi Ian

This was probably 1969ish wasn't it? Seem to remember leon Hayward on this---anyone? Anyway wasn't there a run of Old Town pressings 70/71 ish. Saw dean parrish ---tell her on this?

[Modernsoulsucks]

hi Ian

This was probably 1969ish wasn't it? Seem to remember leon Hayward on this---anyone? Anyway wasn't there a run of Old Town pressings 70/71 ish. Saw dean parrish ---tell her on this?

I think that was Soul Town [orange label]. Weren't they US re-issues maybe legit,maybe not. Like Trip or Million Seller.

There was that BJD. Was that Alexander Patten? First things I remember were "Let the good times roll" on French Stateside, Formations on blue MGM, "Hey girl don't bother me" on a later ABC design from original release.

Long time ago now so memory a bit hazy.

ROD

[KevH]

LOL, fair enough!

In that case can anyone explain the deal with The Contours "Baby Hit And Run" then?

An old recording which had never been heard by anyone and which was a pure 100% Northern monster which was issued in the UK on Motown without ANY OVO or Northern Soul related activity whatsoever!

Or is this the exception which proves the rule?

Ian D

Hi Ian,i always associate Contours "BHAR" with Johnny Williams " Just a little misunderstanding".Maybe someone at Tamla went thru the back catalog of CONTOURS, cos of JW getting plays, and re- discovered "Baby hit and run"?

[Steve G]

Hi Ian,i always associate Contours "BHAR" with Johnny Williams " Just a little misunderstanding".Maybe someone at Tamla went thru the back catalog of CONTOURS, cos of JW getting plays, and re- discovered "Baby hit and run"?

Didn't it come out on a MFP (Music for Pleasure) 99p LP first, or is my mind playing tricks?