O.v.o And C.r.&.p Venues

[Guest Paul]

I'd like to add that I agree there's a need for more DJs to be imaginative, innovative and progressive in what they play.

Too many DJs play just a little bit too safe at times.

Paul

[chrissie]

Mamsey Hamsey

If you avoid me you will avoid Mamsey Pamsey cos I is the one and only QMP, quite easy Si ............but it is all OVO MP

QoFxx

Edited September 17, 2008 by chrissie

[Guest]

I think this is changing slowly though...was pleasantly surprised by the backroom in Rugby last week where they were playing all sorts...these guys for the majority are not your big named DJs but up and coming talent who want to play out less expensive but nonetheless danceworthy records that could go big in time and carry their set lists with them....

Besides that...not all Monsters are mega rare...surely must only be a tiny minority that book at over a grand...so to say all monsters are inaccessable is a slight exaggeration

Ok i'm single and have a semi decent job...my budget per record is maybe £10-200 and maybe somw people can't even afford that price range...but as a DJ...you can't beat that feeling of receiving an original record in the post...receiving a goldmine record doesn't have the same allure... Just as much as you can't beat that feeling of playing a record out that is semi known or unknown but a belting dance track...

Im no veteran in this scene as you all know...but I DJ alot around Manchester in the pub/club environment...and I still get kicks from people coming up to the box and asking what a record is...you wouldn't get that with massive hits

Problem is Beeks is that it's not changing.... I played a spot in the freestyle room at Rugby and chatted to you very briefly whilst having a fag outside afterwards. The set I played seemed to go down pretty well with good number of people dancing for the majority of it. Managed to totally clear the floor with a couple of records but then switched around what I was playing and got people back dancing.

But because I don't play any of the big classic northern records I'll never do a lot of DJ spots in my local area simply because the vast majority of them are oldies nights where the punters expect to hear DJs playing big Wigan spins etc. I wouldn't expect any of the oldies venues to ask me to DJ because I simply wouldn't fit into their music policy. But it does mean that any younger/new OVO DJs have very few opportunities to play. Says it all really when I've done more spots at nighters (where they do a second room like Rugby or an early collectors spot like Lifeline) than I have done at local nights. Not going to lose any sleep over it though, I'll just keep on going out and enjoying the music

Adam.

[Spacehopper]

agree with that paul its upto the dj and promoter (obviously if its advertised as ovo it should be).....but to those punters who do not care ,just think if every dj played the same cheap boots all the time at every venue you went to and didnt spend their hard earned money and time finding new spins...i reckon even those die hard wigan only soulies who may still be still passionate at the moment about the golden oldies would get bored after a while....just like a lot of the new spin fans are already....which along with the recession would kill the scene off for us all......so it does matter

sorry for the doom and gloom,had a shit week will be better friday evening !!

[Jellybean]

Problem is Beeks is that it's not changing.... I played a spot in the freestyle room at Rugby and chatted to you very briefly whilst having a fag outside afterwards. The set I played seemed to go down pretty well with good number of people dancing for the majority of it. Managed to totally clear the floor with a couple of records but then switched around what I was playing and got people back dancing.

But because I don't play any of the big classic northern records I'll never do a lot of DJ spots in my local area simply because the vast majority of them are oldies nights where the punters expect to hear DJs playing big Wigan spins etc. I wouldn't expect any of the oldies venues to ask me to DJ because I simply wouldn't fit into their music policy. But it does mean that any younger/new OVO DJs have very few opportunities to play. Says it all really when I've done more spots at nighters (where they do a second room like Rugby or an early collectors spot like Lifeline) than I have done at local nights. Not going to lose any sleep over it though, I'll just keep on going out and enjoying the music

Adam.

Your always more than welcome to dj at the Double Deckers Adam

JB xxxKTFxxx

[Wiganer1]

Problem is Beeks is that it's not changing.... I played a spot in the freestyle room at Rugby and chatted to you very briefly whilst having a fag outside afterwards. The set I played seemed to go down pretty well with good number of people dancing for the majority of it. Managed to totally clear the floor with a couple of records but then switched around what I was playing and got people back dancing.

But because I don't play any of the big classic northern records I'll never do a lot of DJ spots in my local area simply because the vast majority of them are oldies nights where the punters expect to hear DJs playing big Wigan spins etc. I wouldn't expect any of the oldies venues to ask me to DJ because I simply wouldn't fit into their music policy. But it does mean that any younger/new OVO DJs have very few opportunities to play. Says it all really when I've done more spots at nighters (where they do a second room like Rugby or an early collectors spot like Lifeline) than I have done at local nights. Not going to lose any sleep over it though, I'll just keep on going out and enjoying the music

Adam.

=================

know what you re saying Adam and know where youre coming from...

i would have got you on the coop mate but had already booked for this year

its frustrating when you cant get to play records that you want to (and as a dealer you get to hear even more great records) but sometimes you have to be patient ..(1st 25 years are the worse!)

your plans for the new year will suit you down to the ground and also give you experience of running a venue and realise how difficult it is to get it right and please everyone!

but you've got a great attitude to it all Adam...

[Guest]

Your always more than welcome to dj at the Double Deckers Adam

JB xxxKTFxxx

Hello Helen,

Very kind of you . Really should have mentioned your venue in my original post as it's the only local night where I have done a DJ spot. Thats because Mart and yourself are bucking the trend and have a great 'anything goes as long as it's good' music policy (and ovo). Was great playing there when Mart kept saying play anything you want! Heard some great sounds there from £5 cheapies to one off acetates and don't worry I'll be back to DJ and as a punter .

Adam.

[Guest]

=================

know what you re saying Adam and know where youre coming from...

i would have got you on the coop mate but had already booked for this year

its frustrating when you cant get to play records that you want to (and as a dealer you get to hear even more great records) but sometimes you have to be patient ..(1st 25 years are the worse!)

your plans for the new year will suit you down to the ground and also give you experience of running a venue and realise how difficult it is to get it right and please everyone!

but you've got a great attitude to it all Adam...

Hi Mark,

As I mentioned I don't really worry about it, first priority is just enjoying the music and scene. I wouldn't really expect you to book me in for a spot at the Co-op....you've got a great venue that you pack out with 300 punters for every night. You run it as an oldies night and do a great job of it, but your punters go there to hear the oldies and as I don't play that many oldies I probably wouldn't go down very well with your crowd and your first job as the promoter is to give the paying punters what you've promised them and that ain't really me .

Adam.

[Dylan]

Im no veteran in this scene as you all know...but I DJ alot around Manchester in the pub/club environment...and I still get kicks from people coming up to the box and asking what a record is...you wouldn't get that with massive hits

I wanted that to say massive tits.

oh well never mind.

[Guest Beeks]

Problem is Beeks is that it's not changing.... I played a spot in the freestyle room at Rugby and chatted to you very briefly whilst having a fag outside afterwards. The set I played seemed to go down pretty well with good number of people dancing for the majority of it. Managed to totally clear the floor with a couple of records but then switched around what I was playing and got people back dancing.

But because I don't play any of the big classic northern records I'll never do a lot of DJ spots in my local area simply because the vast majority of them are oldies nights where the punters expect to hear DJs playing big Wigan spins etc. I wouldn't expect any of the oldies venues to ask me to DJ because I simply wouldn't fit into their music policy. But it does mean that any younger/new OVO DJs have very few opportunities to play. Says it all really when I've done more spots at nighters (where they do a second room like Rugby or an early collectors spot like Lifeline) than I have done at local nights. Not going to lose any sleep over it though, I'll just keep on going out and enjoying the music

Adam.

Hi Adam...great records btw

I Understand your frustrations but I have the feeling it will get alot better fast.

The punters want to hear Wigan spins because it takes them back to a time in their life when they were enjoying themselves...it's memories not records they are hearing...so obviously...it has a special meaning to them...I liken it to say...me...going to the Hacienda in the late 80s/90s...some of the music in the Hacienda was garbage(Similar to the pop being played in Wigan) but whenever I hear a tune from there played on the radio etc...whether it is a good or bad record it transports me right back there...suppose its similar.

I don't think that all the older crowd want to hear is wigan anthems though.

The records we play out must have been played out at the time in various venues across the country so if our spins connect with a small percentage i'd settle for that...I just play good soul music which you just have to dance to...if its good...doesn't matter if it was played in Timbucktoo Casino...you will always get good feedback.

As for getting the breaks...Sian from the Rugby lot has exactly the right idea...and if more promoters are brave enough to follow suit then I genuinely feel you will get not only a new wave of fantastic DJs coming through...but a new wave of big records too...ok...so perhaps it will knock the A-List Djs noses out of joint but hey...they have had it good for too long now anyway...would be fun seeing what happens when gatecrashers come to the party!

[Guest Beeks]

I wanted that to say massive tits.

oh well never mind.

You'd probably get more requests...but not for records

[Jason S]

I'd like to add that I agree there's a need for more DJs to be imaginative, innovative and progressive in what they play.

Too many DJs play just a little bit too safe at times.

Paul

Sure it's been said before but that has to go hand in hand with a crowd there solely to dance to good music, some of which they may not know, not demand to hear a pre-determined setlist that reflects their own particular knowledge however limited or broad in range that may be. The punters surely have to be as imaginative and progressive in attitude as the DJ of the same, otherwise you've got someone standing behind the decks playing at a big, empty floor ringed with a sea of grumpy punters wishing they were elsewhere, and then called crap because they didn't play safe to guarantee a full floor. Probably depends what the night's all about really, but if it is the fabled 'sommat different' night the punters have as much responsibility in being open to new things as the DJ, as long as it's not utter crud. No-brainer really, isn't it?

[Guest]

Sure it's been said before but that has to go hand in hand with a crowd there solely to dance to good music, some of which they may not know, not demand to hear a pre-determined setlist that reflects their own particular knowledge however limited or broad in range that may be. The punters surely have to be as imaginative and progressive in attitude as the DJ of the same, otherwise you've got someone standing behind the decks playing at a big, empty floor ringed with a sea of grumpy punters wishing they were elsewhere, and then called crap because they didn't play safe to guarantee a full floor. Probably depends what the night's all about really, but if it is the fabled 'sommat different' night the punters have as much responsibility in being open to new things as the DJ, as long as it's not utter crud. No-brainer really, isn't it?

Very, very true

[Guest Paul]

Sure it's been said before but that has to go hand in hand with a crowd there solely to dance to good music, some of which they may not know, not demand to hear a pre-determined setlist that reflects their own particular knowledge however limited or broad in range that may be. The punters surely have to be as imaginative and progressive in attitude as the DJ of the same, otherwise you've got someone standing behind the decks playing at a big, empty floor ringed with a sea of grumpy punters wishing they were elsewhere, and then called crap because they didn't play safe to guarantee a full floor. Probably depends what the night's all about really, but if it is the fabled 'sommat different' night the punters have as much responsibility in being open to new things as the DJ, as long as it's not utter crud. No-brainer really, isn't it?

Hello

I agree, a DJ can only be as bold as the crowd will allow him to be. The phrase "the public get what the public want" is often very true.

Paul

...and we all know what the public want, don't we?

Edited September 17, 2008 by Paul

[Garethx]

While there seems to a vocal and tangible passion among the original vinyl only camp I wonder if the same can be said for the converse argument. Those who promote venues where the format of the records played is not on the agenda seem to be less forthcoming in their views on this thread.

I agree with Rod where he says that the two scenes appear to be quite separate. I don't think it's possible to have a coherent argument that playing sets of carvers and bootlegs is a realistic way forward for what we know as the Rare Soul scene, but equally those who promote such venues probably don't see it as part of that scene anyway.

To me these venues should be left alone to get on with what they do: and be in no doubt that what they do is an extension of generic, middle aged, middle of the road entertainment; part of the same family as the karaoke evening, Friday Night Disco with Meat Raffle etc. The arguments about OVO are probably irrelevant to the majority of promoters and punters on that particular scene.

The problem for me arises when the two worlds collide. When a venue knowingly wears the clothes of a rare soul night but offers a diet of music played on whatever format comes to hand (some OV, some pressings/boots and carvers of the big, rare nighter spins of the last decade). Those who run such venues can often be highly defensive of their policies. Into the bargain they can often be highly critical of those who might point out that they should state clearly in their advertising that they are offering a mixed format night.

Perhaps an OVO Kitemark should be a prerequisite of running a soul night? A nationwide network of inspectors can assess and vouch for each venue's right to dsplay the kitemark on their publicity material.

I should mention that I think that there is a wider issue than just the OV vs Any Old Format (AOF) arguments. I've stated it before on here: there are too many mediocre deejays in both camps. If a record is substandard I don't really care what format it's on. Maybe it's worse if it is actually on original vinyl and cost the deejay a small fortune?

[Guest Beeks]

While there seems to a vocal and tangible passion among the original vinyl only camp I wonder if the same can be said for the converse argument. Those who promote venues where the format of the records played is not on the agenda seem to be less forthcoming in their views on this thread.

I agree with Rod where he says that the two scenes appear to be quite separate. I don't think it's possible to have a coherent argument that playing sets of carvers and bootlegs is a realistic way forward for what we know as the Rare Soul scene, but equally those who promote such venues probably don't see it as part of that scene anyway.

To me these venues should be left alone to get on with what they do: and be in no doubt that what they do is an extension of generic, middle aged, middle of the road entertainment; part of the same family as the karaoke evening, Friday Night Disco with Meat Raffle etc. The arguments about OVO are probably irrelevant to the majority of promoters and punters on that particular scene.

The problem for me arises when the two worlds collide. When a venue knowingly wears the clothes of a rare soul night but offers a diet of music played on whatever format comes to hand (some OV, some pressings/boots and carvers of the big, rare nighter spins of the last decade). Those who run such venues can often be highly defensive of their policies. Into the bargain they can often be highly critical of those who might point out that they should state clearly in their advertising that they are offering a mixed format night.

Perhaps an OVO Kitemark should be a prerequisite of running a soul night? A nationwide network of inspectors can assess and vouch for each venue's right to dsplay the kitemark on their publicity material.

I should mention that I think that there is a wider issue than just the OV vs Any Old Format (AOF) arguments. I've stated it before on here: there are too many mediocre deejays in both camps. If a record is substandard I don't really care what format it's on. Maybe it's worse if it is actually on original vinyl and cost the deejay a small fortune?

Couldn't agree more with both sentiments

[Sean Hampsey]

If a record is substandard I don't really care what format it's on.

And by the same token, Gareth, some might say 'if a tune is triffic' I don't really care what (legitimate) format it's on'.

Sean

[jocko]

While there seems to a vocal and tangible passion among the original vinyl only camp I wonder if the same can be said for the converse argument. Those who promote venues where the format of the records played is not on the agenda seem to be less forthcoming in their views on this thread.

I agree with Rod where he says that the two scenes appear to be quite separate. I don't think it's possible to have a coherent argument that playing sets of carvers and bootlegs is a realistic way forward for what we know as the Rare Soul scene, but equally those who promote such venues probably don't see it as part of that scene anyway.

To me these venues should be left alone to get on with what they do: and be in no doubt that what they do is an extension of generic, middle aged, middle of the road entertainment; part of the same family as the karaoke evening, Friday Night Disco with Meat Raffle etc. The arguments about OVO are probably irrelevant to the majority of promoters and punters on that particular scene.

The problem for me arises when the two worlds collide. When a venue knowingly wears the clothes of a rare soul night but offers a diet of music played on whatever format comes to hand (some OV, some pressings/boots and carvers of the big, rare nighter spins of the last decade). Those who run such venues can often be highly defensive of their policies. Into the bargain they can often be highly critical of those who might point out that they should state clearly in their advertising that they are offering a mixed format night.

Perhaps an OVO Kitemark should be a prerequisite of running a soul night? A nationwide network of inspectors can assess and vouch for each venue's right to dsplay the kitemark on their publicity material.

I should mention that I think that there is a wider issue than just the OV vs Any Old Format (AOF) arguments. I've stated it before on here: there are too many mediocre deejays in both camps. If a record is substandard I don't really care what format it's on. Maybe it's worse if it is actually on original vinyl and cost the deejay a small fortune?

Oh Gareth I was just half way through typing response to Mr Williams & Mr Mooney saying almost exactly what you have, although probably not as eloquent and with so few swear words,

I hadn't included anything about your last paragraph, which as you say is to me the real crux of the matter (which I did say at the start of this) but interestingly no-one seems to be up for debating that.

Hope to see you at weekend, pint on me young man.

[Mak]

What a great thread...can't believe i've missed it...I now play OVO but I used to play boots and reissues a plenty alongside OV...i've not changed just to fit in...i've changed because I'm starting to enjoy tracking down originals...but like Ian Dewhirst said right on the first page...it's all well and good me playing my £50-200 Originals but if I had a record worth say £1000+ id be loathe to play it on various turntables week in week out for fear of devaluing it.

There is no need to play boots and reissues for the simple fact that there are plenty of fantastic quality soul records that are cheap as chips...buying boots just smacks of unoriginality...there are some gems out there you just have to dig a little...and if there is a monster that you love that is out of reach...get it on MP3 and enjoy it...just as you'd enjoy it if the richer DJ plays it out when you're at an event

Not only that it makes financial sense to buy original vinyl...why pay £10 for a reissue of a monster...when you could pay £10 for a track that could blow up and be worth alot more...original vinyl is an investment as many of the DJ high rollers on here will tell you...and if you have a good ear for music...not only will you find your own path...you will find your records increase in value...it's a win win situation.

Jez Beeks , don't take this the wrong way but you really have matured and mellowed out about the music we all love . Shame is that , as I loved seeing you and PeteS going head to head.

Sorry for going off topic there . Having looked though the thread I have not yet noticed any C.R.A.P venues mentioned, so I suppose I can take it that the ''WOW WHAT A BRILLIANT NIGHT ''promoters who hardly EVER contribute to such topics are the ones who run these venues . Unless you know otherwise.?

[Sean Hampsey]

Steve , start a thread on how to avoid Dullards , Cheese , Mamsey Hamsey and Mick H's shirts!

You did mean Mamsey Pamsey didn't you Simon?

[jocko]

And by the same token, Gareth, some might say 'if a tune is triffic' I don't really care what (legitimate) format it's on'.

Sean

I am not sure anyone actually disagrees on that one Sean, It seems to be the one a few people on here are arguing for but no-one against, I assume.

But just in case I heartily agree with you and so should everyone else, rule no 30444 of the common sense soul rule book,

[Simon M]

You did mean Mamsey Pamsey didn't you Simon?

Oh yeah , I was peckish at the time . Hey I still dont get why Steve started this thread, do you Sean ? Or has he been hanging out at the wrong joints/scene man

Edited September 17, 2008 by Simon M

[Sean Hampsey]

I am not sure anyone actually disagrees on that one Sean, It seems to be the one a few people on here are arguing for but no-one against, I assume.

But just in case I heartily agree with you and so should everyone else, rule no 30444 of the common sense soul rule book,

Sorry Jock. I do go on a bit on this particular Hobby Horse... just read far too many posts on SS over the years about the non-playing of LP's and the fact that most 'Northern' venues don't provide CD's etc.

I fear that, in some quarters, 'common sense' is just not as common as it should be!

Sean

[Wiganer1]

Hi Adam...great records btw

I Understand your frustrations but I have the feeling it will get alot better fast.

The punters want to hear Wigan spins because it takes them back to a time in their life when they were enjoying themselves...it's memories not records they are hearing...so obviously...it has a special meaning to them...I liken it to say...me...going to the Hacienda in the late 80s/90s...some of the music in the Hacienda was garbage(Similar to the pop being played in Wigan) but whenever I hear a tune from there played on the radio etc...whether it is a good or bad record it transports me right back there...suppose its similar.

I don't think that all the older crowd want to hear is wigan anthems though.

The records we play out must have been played out at the time in various venues across the country so if our spins connect with a small percentage i'd settle for that...I just play good soul music which you just have to dance to...if its good...doesn't matter if it was played in Timbucktoo Casino...you will always get good feedback.

As for getting the breaks...Sian from the Rugby lot has exactly the right idea...and if more promoters are brave enough to follow suit then I genuinely feel you will get not only a new wave of fantastic DJs coming through...but a new wave of big records too...ok...so perhaps it will knock the A-List Djs noses out of joint but hey...they have had it good for too long now anyway...would be fun seeing what happens when gatecrashers come to the party!

==========

beeks - oldies are not just about Wigan!

since wigan youve got 26 years of oldies since...

its more a case of known sounds against unknown that puts 'punters' off. newer sounds or dancing to them..

smaller,more intense venues are ideal for across the board sounds and newer stuff,in larger venues it just kills the nite when you play more unknown/newer stuff which is no good when uve got 10s of people waiting to dance..

objective is to get a balance - not an easy task!

[Guest Beeks]

Jez Beeks , don't take this the wrong way but you really have matured and mellowed out about the music we all love .

Naaah...I still love a good arguement..i've never been outspoken about the formats of the music...more the attitudes of the people

[Sean Hampsey]

Oh yeah , I was peckish at the time . Hey I still dont get why Steve started this thread do you Sean ? Or has he been hanging out at the wrong joints/scene man

You might be right.

Didn't see him when you and I were Rockin' it large at the Sheffield Soul Weekender, t'other week!

Not a Bootleg or a Dullard in sight there matey!

[jocko]

I find myself agreeing with Roger's comments.

It certainly is fascinating stuff but there's a danger of some people taking it too seriously.

I think most "punters" are more concerned with how good a record is than anything else. And if a DJ is admired, it should be more for his taste.

We should always expect good manners and DJ etiquette, of course, but there aren't any "rules". And that's because nobody has the right to make the rules in the first place.

One man cannot dictate right or wrong to another man ...but one man can influence others by playing good music.

No disrespect to anyone here, I'm just saying what I believe.

Best regards,

Paul

I spent over 20 years going to Northern do's and almost every punter to a man was interested in how good the record was AND what label it was on. Why are these mutually exclusive.

From the above you are assuming the "punter" has no say in the equation, which I would suggest is exactly the patronising tone I accused you of earlier. What venues did/do you attend, because this was not the case in any I attended,

It may be different now admittedly but I repeat its not that difficult to choose your venues to avoid any where this is not the case.

You keep banging on about rules, I would suggest its more of a common law acceptance, is that not the term where something is accepted as its common practice,

As a number of people have said, it has been the accepted way longer than the other way around, why cant you accept this instead of banging on like some libertarian freedom fighter, only problem is you have chosen the side of the oppressor, IMVHO!

[Guest Beeks]

just read far too many posts on SS over the years about the non-playing of LP's

Now that is something about the Northern scene I will NEVER understand...

[Sean Hampsey]

Now that is something about the Northern scene I will NEVER understand...

Most can't get to grips with more than 7"

[Simon M]

You might be right.

Didn't see him when you and I were Rockin' it large at the Sheffield Soul Weekender, t'other week!

Not a Bootleg or a Dullard in sight there matey!

Oh yeah where was he ! Twas a good weekend !!

[Garethx]

And by the same token, Gareth, some might say 'if a tune is triffic' I don't really care what (legitimate) format it's on'.

Sean

Hi Sean

I agree with what you're saying up to a point. The grey area for me is material such as Grapevine 2000 singles. All legitimate, legal releases and one could put together a hell of a set with them. But is playing tracks which were previously available at high prices on small independent labels from 30 years ago on UK re-issue label format acceptable on the rare soul scene? The previously unreleased material is a no-brainer (stuff like Kent's Come Through Me etc. can and should be played) but I would personally have reservations about a deejay who played, for example, Willie Tee's Teasing You Again from a Grapevine single when others on the same bill might have the Gatur release in their play boxes.

From every moral and ethical standpoint my stance holds no water, I know, but it's the intangibles of practice and etiquette which give our scene its particular identity. I feel guilty about this, because after all we should be applauding the artists who made these great records rather than the ability of a collector or deejay to afford the particular piece of aged plastic.

[jocko]

Okay shorter than last one, I was saying that I was about to give you a proverbial clip on the ear and suggest you go and join Mr Levine as surely thats where all you Modern Soul fans should be!

However you now go and post something sensible and thoughtful and throw me, This is interesting as you have admitted in past you have no background in Northern so its interesting to hear a view of an outsider as such, and yes it does seem a strange world when you put it like this Roger, only defence is that this was never an issue in past because the whole scene was built around collecting, obviously over years lots of people didnt collect, but almost all the dealers and dj's etc had a background and an interest in the records. Its only been the recent years its changed and surely you can see why people get p***ed off as looking from the outside (me now rather than you) the scene has fell flat on its a**e as a result of this change

Therefore in answer to your question, surely if the best days of the scene were around that basis then its only logical for people like us to think that venues sticking to this are better, but surely you can see its not just about the OVO thing, its the attitude that preserves in the DJ's and the sort of music they play, along with the type of crowd they play to, it allows a fresher more enthusiastic approach to the whole thing, so yes they are better.

Gareth summed up far better just how separate these scenes are, (almost as much as the real modern scene and the Northern scene are nowadays to me) but its almost become fashionable to knock people who still want to carry on like this, with the tiresome taunts of soul police, a-listers and other frankly moronic responses.

I do agree with your last paragraph particularly, which is why when I initially responded to this I said the quality and quantity of the soul nights are more the problem, but surely you can see why people like Russ & Matt, who are out supporting this scene weekly, get hacked off when things are thrown back at them, often by people who have just cottoned on to Northern or who are back after a 30 year gap, proclaiming KTF!

Dave, I might not agree with it but I actually can relate to the whole OVO issue and understand that original releases are part of the scene's roots, especially in collecting terms, but sometimes on here I think people take it just a tad too far when they bandy around words like 'integrity' and 'honesty' and 'respect' etc. in terms of playing music at a venue, it all just seems so overblown and out of context to me.

Soul music and the scene is a hobby, a leisure time pursuit, granted a passionate one for most of us, but does it really warrant people believing they have a better venue than others or they're a better DJ than others because they buy and play original releases of records? Fair enough, if original vinyl is your thing, fine, it actually is for me in terms of the LPs I've always collected, but why on earth make a list of OVO and "CR&P" venues in the first place, if not to do down and belittle the soul 'lower classes' or 'substandard venues' playing their music with no concern of format? At least that's the feeling I get from a lot of the posts in this thread.

And how come people who run these 'ordinary' nights never start threads like this?

Surely people would get more 'respect' if they just went about their scene business in the best way they can and consistently upheld their own views and beliefs, rather than coming on here worrying and moaning about what other people should and should be doing or playing?

Roger

[Guest Brett F]

I’ve always believed there should be more violence at venues, there should be a skip, ring lined with blood soaked “baggies” (40” bottoms, they hold more of the red stuff) then every rotten scrag hound from each dark and filthy genre of the soul scene, should be thrown head first into this treacherous steel coffin. All the different factions would be armed to the teeth, whipped steel axes, pipe wrenches with flame hardened teeth, drop forged pry bars (the ones with the very thin blade, they prise into small places) then all manner of ungodly actions could take place in this theatre of hate……….then and only then would this savage argument be finally laid to rest…………….

Brett

Edited September 17, 2008 by Brett F

[Guest Paul]

I spent over 20 years going to Northern do's and almost every punter to a man was interested in how good the record was AND what label it was on. Why are these mutually exclusive.

From the above you are assuming the "punter" has no say in the equation, which I would suggest is exactly the patronising tone I accused you of earlier. What venues did/do you attend, because this was not the case in any I attended,

It may be different now admittedly but I repeat its not that difficult to choose your venues to avoid any where this is not the case.

You keep banging on about rules, I would suggest its more of a common law acceptance, is that not the term where something is accepted as its common practice,

As a number of people have said, it has been the accepted way longer than the other way around, why cant you accept this instead of banging on like some libertarian freedom fighter, only problem is you have chosen the side of the oppressor, IMVHO!

There you go again, Jocko.

I can't express an opinion without you having a go at me and, even worse, twisting my words into something I never said.

I could suggest that you read my postings again but from recent experience I think that would be a waste of time.

You obviously have a problem with me, even though you don't know me, so don't bother responding to any of my postings. In fact, don't even read them.

Yesterday I was bewildered, today I'm getting angry.

Paul

[jocko]

Sorry Jock. I do go on a bit on this particular Hobby Horse... just read far too many posts on SS over the years about the non-playing of LP's and the fact that most 'Northern' venues don't provide CD's etc.

I fear that, in some quarters, 'common sense' is just not as common as it should be!

Sean

That is a fair point, as you know the LP's have never been a problem with me, only problem is I used to leave at least one behind every time I dj'd!!

And fair point re the common sense part, but that again I feel is an issue with spending too much time on here (for me anyway) as in reality the venues I attend, as few as they are again, and the people I attend with, its a no brainer!

[jocko]

I've always believed there should be more violence at venues, there should be a skip, ring lined with blood soaked "baggies" (40" bottoms, they hold more of the red stuff) then every rotten scrag hound from each dark and filthy genre of the soul scene, should be thrown head first into this treacherous steel coffin. All the different factions would be armed to the teeth, whipped steel axes, pipe wrenches with flame hardened teeth, drop forged pry bars (the ones with the very thin blade, they prise into small places) then all manner of ungodly actions could take place in this theatre of hate..........then and only then would this savage argument be finally laid to rest................

Brett

Ahh you have heard about the Marriot Hall alnighters in Dundee from the 70's then Brett............

[jocko]

There you go again, Jocko.

I can't express an opinion without you having a go at me and, even worse, twisting my words into something I never said.

I could suggest that you read my postings again but from recent experience I think that would be a waste of time.

You obviously have a problem with me, even though you don't know me, so don't bother responding to any of my postings. In fact, don't even read them.

Yesterday I was bewildered, today I'm getting angry.

Paul

I have no problem with you, as you say I don't know you.

I have a problem with you patronising Northern Soul "punters". If I am wrong in my assumption then explain why as I can't see how it reads any other way. I think I have very clearly articulated why I have a problem with that statement.

Threatening me has no real purpose or use on the internet has it.

Jock O'Connor

[Sean Hampsey]

Hi Sean

I agree with what you're saying up to a point. The grey area for me is material such as Grapevine 2000 singles. All legitimate, legal releases and one could put together a hell of a set with them. But is playing tracks which were previously available at high prices on small independent labels from 30 years ago on UK re-issue label format acceptable on the rare soul scene? The previously unreleased material is a no-brainer (stuff like Kent's Come Through Me etc. can and should be played) but I would personally have reservations about a deejay who played, for example, Willie Tee's Teasing You Again from a Grapevine single when others on the same bill might have the Gatur release in their play boxes.

From every moral and ethical standpoint my stance holds no water, I know, but it's the intangibles of practice and etiquette which give our scene its particular identity. I feel guilty about this, because after all we should be applauding the artists who made these great records rather than the ability of a collector or deejay to afford the particular piece of aged plastic.

I find it hard to disagree with you Gareth, on the basis that I (probably as much as anyone) am a real 'originals' freak when it comes to my own 'collection' - but then I've accumulated enough of them to DJ with for the next hundred years. I guess I feel that the overrider is in a hypothetical case of, for example, a young DJ (perhaps Rod Shard's 'Biffo' i.e. someone who doesn't have 40 years worth of collecting behind him/her and a decent disposable income) who wants to play, promote and enjoy Soul Music at his local Village Hall 'do' without incurring the wrath of the hardcore collector. Surely legitimate re-issues are fair game for his playlist and these formats should not be tarred with the same brush as the bootleg!

Should common sense prevail in this case?

[chrissie]

I agree with Rod where he says that the two scenes appear to be quite separate. I don't think it's possible to have a coherent argument that playing sets of carvers and bootlegs is a realistic way forward for what we know as the Rare Soul scene, but equally those who promote such venues probably don't see it as part of that scene anyway.

To me these venues should be left alone to get on with what they do: and be in no doubt that what they do is an extension of generic, middle aged, middle of the road entertainment; part of the same family as the karaoke evening, Friday Night Disco with Meat Raffle etc. The arguments about OVO are probably irrelevant to the majority of promoters and punters on that particular scene.

The problem for me arises when the two worlds collide. When a venue knowingly wears the clothes of a rare soul night but offers a diet of music played on whatever format comes to hand (some OV, some pressings/boots and carvers of the big, rare nighter spins of the last decade). Those who run such venues can often be highly defensive of their policies. Into the bargain they can often be highly critical of those who might point out that they should state clearly in their advertising that they are offering a mixed format night.

Perhaps an OVO Kitemark should be a prerequisite of running a soul night? A nationwide network of inspectors can assess and vouch for each venue's right to dsplay the kitemark on their publicity material.

Totally agree, well put

QoFxx

[Guest Beeks]

There you go again, Jocko.

I can't express an opinion without you having a go at me and, even worse, twisting my words into something I never said.

I could suggest that you read my postings again but from recent experience I think that would be a waste of time.

You obviously have a problem with me, even though you don't know me, so don't bother responding to any of my postings. In fact, don't even read them.

Yesterday I was bewildered, today I'm getting angry.

Paul

Hahaha I wouldn't worry about it Paul...it's no great loss if you're off his Christmas card list

[Maark]

I find myself agreeing with Roger's comments.

It certainly is fascinating stuff but there's a danger of some people taking it too seriously.

I think most "punters" are more concerned with how good a record is than anything else. And if a DJ is admired, it should be more for his taste.

We should always expect good manners and DJ etiquette, of course, but there aren't any "rules". And that's because nobody has the right to make the rules in the first place.

One man cannot dictate right or wrong to another man ...but one man can influence others by playing good music.

No disrespect to anyone here, I'm just saying what I believe.

Best regards,

Paul

As a mere punter, the highlighted sentence is the one that has made the most sense in the 10 pages of this thread. At the end of the day, people own a copy (even if it is OV) of the music, they don't own THE music!

[jocko]

Hahaha I wouldn't worry about it Paul...it's no great loss if you're off his Christmas card list

If you have something to say, say it to me, we have been here before have we not.

But since we are here, can I ask you to articulate which A-Listers you mean this time and how you are going to knock them off their perch.

I'll start with people who I think are at the top of their game, which is what I assume you mean by you your sneering term of A-Listers,

Butch, Andy Dyson, Mick H, Cliff Steele,

will be interested to know your plan and strategy, assuming you have actually heard of any of them!

[Guest Beeks]

As a mere punter, the highlighted sentence is the one that has made the most sense in the 10 pages of this thread. At the end of the day, people own a copy (even if it is OV) of the music, they don't own THE music!

On that point I can't argue Maark...taste is everything...doesn't matter how many originals you have...if you don't know a great record from your arse then you're in trouble

[Guest Beeks]

If you have something to say, say it to me, we have been here before have we not.

You know me Jock...I'm never shy when it comes to winding you up...besides...I think the sado-masochist in you loves it really

I'll start with people who I think are at the top of their game, which is what I assume you mean by you your sneering term of A-Listers,

Butch, Andy Dyson, Mick H, Cliff Steele,

All of the above have great collections and are accomplished DJs...but if all of the above are playing the same MONSTER £1000+ records...well...remember what I was saying about pushing the boat out?

[Guest Paul]

I have no problem with you, as you say I don't know you.

I have a problem with you patronising Northern Soul "punters". If I am wrong in my assumption then explain why as I can't see how it reads any other way. I think I have very clearly articulated why I have a problem with that statement.

Threatening me has no real purpose or use on the internet has it.

Jock O'Connor

First of all, I haven't threatened you. Let's be clear about that.

I'm bewildered (or "bemused" as someone put it yesterday) and I'm getting a bit angry that you twist my words and try to paint me as a "libertarian freedom fighter" or whatever. What the f*ck is that about???

You said, just for example, that I "keep banging on about rules" yet I actually said there aren't any rules.

Anyway, there's no point having a discussion with you if you read what I didn't say, rather than what I did.

Yesterday I had three emails and one private message from members who were amazed at your comments. So I'm not the only one who thinks you've lost the plot.

Go pick on someone else.

Paul

[Guest Beeks]

Yesterday I had three emails and one private message from members who were amazed at your comments. So I'm not the only one who thinks you've lost the plot.

Not Guilty!!

Seems like you have quite a fan base on here Jocky All those years of networking must be paying off

[Chalky]

All of the above have great collections and are accomplished DJs...but if all of the above are playing the same MONSTER £1000+ records...well...remember what I was saying about pushing the boat out?

when did you last hear those four DJ? Have you heard them DJ? Come to Lifeline and I think you'll find they aren't playing the same things. I doubt apart from what you might read on hear you have little clue about any of them, what they collect, what they play and in the case of one what they discover/find for others.

Edited September 17, 2008 by chalky

[jocko]

All of the above have great collections and are accomplished DJs...but if all of the above are playing the same MONSTER £1000+ records...well...remember what I was saying about pushing the boat out?

I think the fact you make a ridiculous statement like above shows one all nighter doesnt an expert make.

Sure James Trouble could recommend a good NS finishing school, sure you wont make it but who knows.............

I am off, can't believe I even care about such arguments any more, or got involved with you again, you may look like the village fool but me even coming in here makes me guilty of acting like it.

[Guest Paul]

Not Guilty!!

Seems like you have quite a fan base on here Jocky All those years of networking must be paying off

Hello Beeks,

I'm happy to confirm that you weren't one of them.

The fact that they contacted me offlist or in private suggests they don't want to enter into a debate with Jocko. For whatever reasons.

That's understandable.

Paul

[Garethx]

I find it hard to disagree with you Gareth, on the basis that I (probably as much as anyone) am a real 'originals' freak when it comes to my own 'collection' - but then I've accumulated enough of them to DJ with for the next hundred years. I guess I feel that the overrider is in a hypothetical case of, for example, a young DJ (perhaps Rod Shard's 'Biffo' i.e. someone who doesn't have 40 years worth of collecting behind him/her and a decent disposable income) who wants to play, promote and enjoy Soul Music at his local Village Hall 'do' without incurring the wrath of the hardcore collector. Surely legitimate re-issues are fair game for his playlist and these formats should not be tarred with the same brush as the bootleg!

Should common sense prevail in this case?

I think you're absolutely spot-on Sean. The scenario you describe is probably grounds for a separate thread. Where the scene goes from here and how it is passed down is a potentially fascinating subject.

I look forward to a future where a regard for soul music pure and simple, in all its guises, outlives the 'rules' which have grown up around the scene. Legitimate re-issues have a part to play in all of that, for sure. Bootlegs simply shouldn't.

It's interesting to me that the European scene, where younger deejays and collectors have grown up with great archive labels such as Kent have a far healthier outlook on all aspects of soul. Bootlegs seem to play a non-existent part in what they do and respect for the formats seems to extend to open-mindedness about soul music in general. I'm optimistic about the future based on that model: it's not a case of 'standards slipping' which is often implied when topics on this forum start to meditate on the future.

Tellingly, the venues in the UK which seem to operate on an 'anything-goes' level as far as formats are concerned seem to be controlled by and aimed at the middle-aged constituency.

Edited September 17, 2008 by garethx